Religion is contrived

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I don't see why God's plan for salvation would need to be any more complicated. It's straightforward and easy to understand.

Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
Ok,... the world is the center of the universe for starters.

Or,.. it's only 10000 years old,...

or,... there was a flood (in the last 10000 years) that covered the entire planet,....

or that man started from 2 people,... just over 10000 years ago...


all of the above have been PROVEN false....
I would recommend visiting Answers in Genesis.
 
Well I had a look at that website. I looked at the section on dinosaurs. It's obviously written to soothe or convince people with little or no knowledge of the scientific method. It claims that scientists, who are evolutionsts, merely assume that dinosaurs lived when they did. The site also repeatedly refers to the dinosaur fossils as "bones". They are actually rocks, and have been in the ground long enough to become rock. When we find things from 6000 years ago, like baskets or jars or even tombs, nothing has become rock. How can this be explained? I've noticed that biblical interpretations of history tend to have a rapid pace and are quite short, too. And I'd love any one to take a shot at it.
 
milefile,

Not quite sure what your question is specifically, perhaps the time it took God to create the earth? Only seven days? Some people say the Bible indicates the earth is less than 4,000 years old? Well I can't confirm that, I will say that in the Bible it does say that a 1,000 years to man is like a blink of an eye to God. So if it took God seven days to create the earth, how many times do you think he blinked his eyes during that time?

Not quite sure if I ansered your question, but it's good info to have anyways.

:cheers:
 
Originally posted by Pako
I will say that in the Bible it does say that a 1,000 years to man is like a blink of an eye to God.

:cheers:

I'm talking bout the notion the the Earth is quite literally 6000 years old, or less, in Earth years.
 
Originally posted by milefile
I'm talking bout the notion the the Earth is quite literally 6000 years old, or less, in Earth years.

I understand what you're saying. I'm Catholic, and still I believe strongly that this planet is billions of years old, at least, for us(Which is to say that our planet has moved around the sun billions of times).

Jordan, nice to see you back again!
 
I don't see why God's plan for salvation would need to be any more complicated. It's straightforward and easy to understand.

Take a step back for a moment and look at all of the religions of the world, even the polytheists. Think about christianity for a moment and how it might have been born out of man's mind.

Think about the need for a reason to do good and to avoid the bad. This basic need of civilization is at the very heart of social structures. If you had no law enforcement organization how would you police the world?

With religion.

Why does god or the devil look like a man - because that made sense to man. Why does the bible not include information about the dinosaurs or the age of the earth - because man did not know about these things when he wrote the bible. Why do religions dicate that you should not eat pork - because pork was killing people back then. Why does the jewish faith say you should cover your head at all times - because it keeps warmth in the body. Why does the bible say that the earth is the center of the universe - because that's how it appeared to early man.

When you step back and think about it, the bible reeks of man's ideas. God and the devil and all of the stories behind the creation of the universe sound just like something people would come up with.

I'm not suggesting that it be more complicated, I'm suggesting that the truth would be more creative. The truth should be more consistent and more knowledgable of the sturcture of the universe. The truth should be timeless.
 
quote:
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Originally posted by Pako
it is human nature to disclose the truth.
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It is human nature to lie. The creativity of our species presupposes it. We would be better off if we could just control our lies instead of trying to eradicate one of the most central insticts we posess.

It is both human nature to lie and to disclose the truth. When you look at the general trend of humanity over the years, though, the truth wins.
 
Actually the Bible does talk about Dino's. There is also historical, scientific proof of many of the events that have occured in the Bible. Not to mention the Virgin Birth, the death, and the resurection of Christ, which is a magic trick I'm sure your not ready to perform.

I'm very intersted in this Pako. Is there some excerpt that I can read about this? Are you familiar enough with it to write about it here?
 
I agree. religion is all stories. noting more than santa clause but on a larger scale. none of the stories have any thing to back them. just the word of a bible that anyone could have writtin. it was writtin back in the day when people were trying to figure out where they came from and they were gullible enough to accept any crap you handed them. but the thing that pisses me off is that people make religion too sensitive of a subject. baisically all relgion is, is a theory. its one theory of how we got here. it hasnt been proovin and probably never will be. but if u tell someone its a theory they get all upset. but its not different then the scientific theories. the big bang theory is one explination of how we got here, but it hasnt been proovin. thats half our problems in the world is that people are too hard headed to accept the fact that thier unproovin religion may not be true. im on the side that there is no god, or at least not one in the way current religions tell it. but if someone presented me with good facts that he does exist. then ill give up and believe without a fight. religion is just a way for people to have hope. give them something to hold on to when things go bad. but if u just sit and think about it the bible is just a book full of stories that form a theory of how we got here. religious people will argue and argue and even go against what the bible says to fight for the fact that its never been proovin and they know that. they just wont admit it. when u get down to analyzing a story in the bible its just like a bad movie. something happens and they cant explain it, but its true because some crazy isrialite said it was true. how can a virgin have a baby? how can apples be forbidden when they are eatin today? how can the earth flood with water, evaporate, and remain at a constant level? how can god condemn killing on one page, and give someone the right to do it the next? and the final one, where the hell did god himself come from? they cant cant explain it but because the crazy jews believed it 2000 years ago when man was still primitive, then it must be true. but back to my main complaint. people should just keep religion as a theory and remain it as that.
 
So where did the universe come from then? How did it start? The big bang doesn't explain anything except something exploded. Where did the something come from?

Face it. You don't want to understand or believe so you probably never will. No problem.
 
the way i see it is that huamns have gotten a lot smarter and now need undenyable proof if they are to believe anything. where as back when the bible was written people were more than willing to believe in a higher life, a meaning to everything.

I mean a meaning to everything? dont you just live and then die, simple as that? and we make up things to make us believe that everything is more important than it is.

we are little people on an earth that has become smart enough to create our own societies , then we will die.. who will care after we are gone? NO one... are we getting too smart? and starting to think we know everything? please take a moment to think about that all of you... might it just be possible that we as humans think we know it all and really we are just at the begginning of our development and actually there may be things we cannot comprehend? the answer is .. we will NEVER KNOW.. because if this is the case , then by the time we as humans know it, then us lot will have become the new version of the caveman so to speak.

Man this topic can get your mind going...
 
Religion is contrived? Religion is crap. It's just a way to keep the general masses in line and see to it that they don't act up. I wouldn't go so far as to call it mind control, but it's close.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong and Jesus did walk on water, turn water to w(h)ine, and all that other cool stuff.

It's scary to think that our president doesn't believe in evolution. It's scary to think that anyone doesn't believe in evolution. It's like some people are completely blinded by religion, lkike they can't see fro themselves.

Oh well. We'll all see when we die.
 
I'm a Christian and I believe in evolution and I also believe the earth is older than 6000 years old.
Being a Christian doesn't mean that we don't believe in science and in facts. On the other hand , being an athiest seems to go hand in hand with closing your mind off to anything other than what you want to believe and complaining about anything you don't understand.
I have yet to see a thread started on this forum by a Christian whining about athiesm. It's like some of you guys are trying to do exactly the same thing you are complaining about. You are trying to get others to believe what you believe.
Please.. put a cork in that w(h)ine. (unless you turned it from water)
 
Originally posted by DGB454
On the other hand , being an athiest seems to go hand in hand with closing your mind off to anything other than what you want to believe and complaining about anything you don't understand.

Maybe atheists understand that religion is dogmatic and prescriptive. And that their choice to become atheists stems from the fact that they have opened their minds to the possibility that religion is just a poor attempt by mankind to create an entity they can believe in whenever they cant understand something?

Or not. Whatever butters your toast.
 
of course religion, or more correctly Christianity, is contrived but i dont believe it was invented as a means punishment and to establish law and order....

sometimes people want to be thankful for a bright sunny day and a good harvest, before the dawn of science there was no way to explain procreation, the stars in the sky or fish in the sea, to primitive man it makes more sense that they were put there by a greater power....

i have a personal interest in the relgions of the celts and picts and there is a great belief in the nature element in these religions, something that is tangable in the forests and in the mists among the mountains, you can still feel it today, no wonder they believed in spirits of the trees and the lochs...
 
The general trend in current Christianity, particularly the Evangelical church, is sickening. What they try to pass off as religion and spirituality is nothing more than a pallid justification of a culture grounded in excess, free-floating moral relativism, and lack of purpose. The symbolism and meaning of scripture is replaced with Powerpoint presentations where the meaning of life is represented in a handful of bullet points. They are pretending God has co-signed their pitiful lives. They can drive home in their Escalades feeling glad that is it God's will that they spend all day at the mall, that it is God's will that Microsoft present their morality, that it is God's will that their church has a Starbucks in the lobby. That God, too, thinks crosses on churches scare congregants (*cough* dollars *cough*) It is a classic case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em", only they don't admit it.

I am not Christian, but I know dishonesty when I see it.

The new, American Tem Commandments:

One
'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
Unless there is a smokin' sale or Joneses have surpassed you

Two
'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
Unless it is PC to do so, or the Dali Lama is in town.

Three
'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
Unless you are really, really pissed off, God Dammit!

Four
'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
We will make this as convenient as possible by selling the newspaper, Frappuccinos, and Egg McMuffins for you to munch while lounging in reclining chairs. No pews for you!

Five
'Honor your father and your mother.'
Unless they cut you out of the will, sexually abused you, beat you in a drunken stupor, or psychologically abused you so severely that no amount of pseudo-religion, psychoanalysis, or groundless "affirmations" will retrieve you from your sad bubble of neurosis and insecurity. Then you may curse them... go ahead! It's fun!

Six
'You shall not murder.'
Only the government can. Get a government job if you must.

Seven
'You shall not commit adultery.'
Bwahahahahaa!!!

Eight
'You shall not steal.'
Unless you know you won't get caught.

Nine
'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
Unless you heard that they told your other neighbors that you said thus-and-such after you watched their annoying kids while they has their plasma TV delivered even though you were envious and secretly can't stand them because you heard their kids say "my dad says your mom is a b*tch."

Ten
'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
Your neighbor probably does not have an ox or a donkey or a male servant, but if he does, it figures because they're weird anyway, and his wife is probably doing all of them while the kids are at school.
 
When is the last time you have been inside a Church?
When is the last time you have really gotten to know a Christian instead of looking at him with paranoia? What does he want from me? Why is he happy when I am miserable? There has to be weird rituals going on inside that building they gather in. We are all doomed unless we can free ourselves of this religious plague. They are after our minds and our money. Poor us...What shall we do?
Your ten commandments fit your belief system much more than they fit mine.

To quote something someone said to me once..."Cry baby."
 
Originally posted by DGB454
When is the last time you have been inside a Church?
Not since I chose to no longer go inside churches. Unless you count a wedding about three weeks ago.

When is the last time you have really gotten to know a Christian instead of looking at him with paranoia?
Mine and my wife's closest friends are Christians. They think Halloween is Pagan and reject Santa. But hey, they're honest, don't push it off on us, and hence do not reflect what I despise.

What does he want from me? Why is he happy when I am miserable?
I don't think either of those things. I don't know why you'd say I do :confused:

There has to be weird rituals going on inside that building they gather in.
Actually, some weird rituals would be an improvement over the social club it has become.

We are all doomed unless we can free ourselves of this religious plague.
Who's we? I'm free now.

They are after our minds and our money. Poor us...What shall we do?
Keep your money. Think freely.

Your ten commandments fit your belief system much more than they fit mine.
Again, I don't know why you'd say that, unless it's just anger.

To quote something someone said to me once..."Cry baby."
I have no response to that.
 
wow, i this is a very tense subject and you can guarantee that you will never get everyone to agree.
I personally believe that religion is a form of social control, to make people fear doing what some see as 'wrong' and to fit in to the 'normal' -but what one considers to be normal may be weird to another. Religion is fine if it helps people live a happy and productive life. Although i don't believe in any one particular religion myself as it causes far too many wars for my liking, if people have good values and treat others well, let them believe what they want and leave them alone. live and let live - life is short enough without making it more complicated than it needs to be. ;)
 
Originally posted by milefile
Not since I chose to no longer go inside churches. Unless you count a wedding about three weeks ago.


Mine and my wife's closest friends are Christians. They think Halloween is Pagan and reject Santa. But hey, they're honest, don't push it off on us, and hence do not reflect what I despise.


I don't think either of those things. I don't know why you'd say I do :confused:


Actually, some weird rituals would be an improvement over the social club it has become.


Who's we? I'm free now.


Keep your money. Think freely.


Again, I don't know why you'd say that, unless it's just anger.


I have no response to that.

You seem to be angry or paranoid about something. Either that or you just like to complain and need somewhere to direct your complaints. I see no other reason to complain in great length and detail something you neither believe in or understand. Why not just leave it alone?

Be like us. You don't see us making longwinded pointless threads complaining about how bad atheism is. We leave it alone because it's pointless.

I mean, I could see it if we were knocking on your door every day and bugging you or if we were sending you junk mail or calling you asking for donations and trying to get you to join us but none of that is happening. So what's the problem?
 
No problems here. I only object on conceptual grounds, in an abstract way, and that's more important to some than it is to others.
 
Yeah, religion today is contrived.
You take God out of if and it becomes something other that what was intended.
IMHO, there is nothing wrong with following the principles of laid down by Christ in the 6th chapter of the book of Matthew.

Believing in the interpretations of men, rather than the Lord is what gets us into trouble. It's also why the book of Timothy says, "Study to show thyself approved, a workman unto God..."
Not "listen to Jimmy Swaggart, or Billy Graham, they have all the answers. In fact, if you listen to them and other like them and don't do any of your own studying it's cool, as they are never wrong, nor do they ever mis-interpret anything in the Bible."

As for the original ten commandments, They were given before the death of Christ. Which was accomplished to make things easier, not harder for the worshippers of God. Though the priciples still apply:

Originally posted by milefile

One
'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
Unless there is a smokin' sale or Joneses have surpassed you

Actually, God is a jealous God. See the book of Exodus, Note what happens to the Pharoah that wouldn't free the Hebrews. That's what pharoah gets for believing in false gods. The Joneses are up to their eyeballs in debt trying to outstrip you. Let them get ahead, and you be content with what you have if it is sufficient for your needs.

two
'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
Unless it is PC to do so, or the Dali Lama is in town.

If you continue in the Book of Exodus you will note that the people of Isreal were really no different from us. Griping and Complaining because life was hard under slavery, but in some ways less secure once they were freed and had to trust in God. Humans have a hard time trusting anyone, much less an unseen, but wholly present, and "in charge of the situation" God.

Three
'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
Unless you are really, really pissed off, God Dammit!

I already told you God has some jealousy issues. See the first commandment above. Elsewhere in the bible (book of James, I believe) it is said, "Be angry, but do not sin."

Four
'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
We will make this as convenient as possible by selling the newspaper, Frappuccinos, and Egg McMuffins for you to munch while lounging in reclining chairs. No pews for you!

The book of I Corinthians admonishes us "not to forsake the gathering together of the saints." So going to worship is not "optional." However, Jesus said in the book of Acts, "Wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, there will I be also." So you can worship together in your home with the family.

Five
'Honor your father and your mother.'
Unless they cut you out of the will, sexually abused you, beat you in a drunken stupor, or psychologically abused you so severely that no amount of pseudo-religion, psychoanalysis, or groundless "affirmations" will retrieve you from your sad bubble of neurosis and insecurity. Then you may curse them... go ahead! It's fun!

It never said to assume at all costs that your parents were perfect. The Book of Numbers, Proverbs, and a variety of places in the New Testament speak to inappropriate sexual behavior, abuse, drunkeness, and as fathers we are admonished not to provoke our children to wrath. So the Bible deals with the parent/child relationship from the responsibilities of the parent and of the child.

Six
'You shall not murder.'
Only the government can. Get a government job if you must.

There are instances when God told the children of Israel to go out and destroy their enemies. However, it was usually accomplished in some way that showed that God really weilded the power, not the Israelites. They were weaponless, outnumbered, or something that made it clear that they were winning wars with the power of someone or something stronger and more powerful than they would have been alone.
But in general, we are not supposed to solve our problems, or provide recreation by killing those people around us.

Seven
'You shall not commit adultery.'
Bwahahahahaa!!!

This is just wrong. The book of Genesis states that a man "shall leave his father and mother and cleave/cling unto his wife." David, a man after God's own heart, was an adulterer. All of his children were cursed in some way by God because David dipped his wick where he shouldn't have. He was a man "after God's heart" not because he was perfect. He was far from perfect. But whenever he messed up, he turned away from his sin, and went to God for forgiveness/atonement.

Eight
'You shall not steal.'
Unless you know you won't get caught.

How did you feel the first time you had something stolen from you? No reference to the Book this time. It's simply a lowlife thing to do.:irked:

Nine
'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
Unless you heard that they told your other neighbors that you said thus-and-such after you watched their annoying kids while they has their plasma TV delivered even though you were envious and secretly can't stand them because you heard their kids say "my dad says your mom is a b*tch."

All lying on your neighbors does is create a situation of enmity, an discontent in the 'hood. Why bother. Do you really have to get in the slime with the gossips.

Ten
'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'
Your neighbor probably does not have an ox or a donkey or a male servant, but if he does, it figures because they're weird anyway, and his wife is probably doing all of them while the kids are at school.

In today's verbiage, "don't envy your neighbor, his possesions."
See Matthew 6:25 to the end of the chapter. God will provide, what you need. You may not have your neighbor's "wealth" but you will be able to live.
 
Gil, although I think you missed or misunderstood much (if not all) of the intended humor in my ten commandments, I think if more Christians were like you there'd be little to complain about.
 
Originally posted by bird2rock
wow, i this is a very tense subject and you can guarantee that you will never get everyone to agree.
I personally believe that religion is a form of social control, to make people fear doing what some see as 'wrong' and to fit in to the 'normal' -but what one considers to be normal may be weird to another. Religion is fine if it helps people live a happy and productive life. Although i don't believe in any one particular religion myself as it causes far too many wars for my liking, if people have good values and treat others well, let them believe what they want and leave them alone. live and let live - life is short enough without making it more complicated than it needs to be. ;)
Yes, very intense. There is a core difference between "Legalistic" and "Spiritualistic" religion. People have abused and manipulated others by using fear through religion to get what they want. This is absolutely wrong, and is in complete contradiction to Christ's teachings. It's unfortuneate that such situations even exist, scaring people in such a way, that healing is very difficult. This will often lead to general catigorizations of all religions. Again, this is sad but true. As Gil has pointed out, all you can do is questions what's in the Bible, not what other people are saying/doing in the name of someone/something.

And yes, the world would be a much better place if everyone respected everyone else. There needs to be a higher value placed on life.
 
gil, i did see the humor in your ten comandments - i was actually posting that at the same time as you, so it was actually meant to follow the previous post!!
your post made me laugh :0
 
on a lighter note, Eddy Izzard's -'Circle' is worth watching as he talks about god and religion, etc, and it hillarious - well worth a watch.
 
I've said it a million times,.... religion is perfect for people who need closure.

I have a bit of a hypethetical test question for everyone:
Give a cause/effect opinion about what would happen to the economy if the bible didnt force its people to give 10% of their yearly income to the church.

I know jack about economics, but for some reason I think the church hoards a lot of money.
 
Originally posted by Red Eye Racer
I've said it a million times,.... religion is perfect for people who need closure.

I have a bit of a hypethetical test question for everyone:
Give a cause/effect opinion about what would happen to the economy if the bible didnt force its people to give 10% of their yearly income to the church.

I know jack about economics, but for some reason I think the church hoards a lot of money.

Let's assume a couple of things. The churches I am about to talk about disclose thier funds openly and freely. They also have to account for what the money is used for. This particular Christian Denomination is Nazarene. All their money is used to local expense as well as support services such as world wide missions in other countries. They also send money to missionaries accross the world as well. Other churches are built, clinics and drug rehab centers are built and stocked, ect... If you like, I can give you some raw figures of what exactly this money and how much is given towards these needs.
 
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