Religion is contrived

[Mike Rotch]

I would like to ask a question that may be stupid, but I dont really know since I dont know the ins and outs of christianity;

The US Cleric (or whatever) has just ordained/appointed the first openly gay Bishop (or was it Cardinal?). Anyway, my point is, arent priests/bishops/etc supposed to be celibate? That meaning they renounce their sexual desires? If that is true, this fella shouldnt be "openly gay" because that would imply that he very much thinks about sex, to the extent that he has discovered his sexual orientation.

Contradiction? Hypocracy? A prime example of why religion is contrived?

PS: In answering please dont quote Bible passages, as soon as I see them I switch off.

 

[DGB454]

That guy wasn't Catholic. They are the only ones I know of where the Priest are suppose to follow those rules.

 

[Danoff]

I found this little gem at that link. These are arguments for the existence of god on that website.

1. The cosmological argument: the effect of the universe's existence must have a suitable cause.

Why? Why can the universe not simply exist because it is equivalent to nothing existing. Hawking studied the fact that it is not possible to simply have nothing… something comes from nothing and goes back to nothing. It must still be held as possible that our universe had no creator. There is no proof that there is a creator, and the introduction of one creates the same problem… where did the creator come from?

2. The teleological argument: the design of the universe implies a purpose or direction behind it.

Wrong again. The “design” of the universe could just as easily arise out of something quite more fundamental. It may turn out, in the end, that our universe must exist. That it is not possible for nothing to exist for a lengthy period of time. My point is not that you must believe that nothing cannot exist, but simply hold it as a possibility. If it is possible, this point is nullified. We have not shown that nothing can exist and, in fact, have evidence to the contrary.

3. The rational argument: the operation of the universe, according to order and natural law, implies a mind behind it.

What? A mind? It implies order, but order and disorder can come from each other. A quick google search will turn up the subject of spontaneous order.

4. The ontological argument: man's ideas of God (his God-consciousness) implies a God who imprinted such a consciousness.

This is an old argument that I studied in metaphysics in college. It says that since man cannot think of anything truly original… since everything is derived… the knowledge of god must have been put in our minds by god. This argument forgets about man’s ability to extrapolate and that the concept of God is quite literally an extrapolation of all of the “good” that we have seen.

5. The moral argument: man's built-in sense of right and wrong can be accounted for only by an innate awareness of a code of law--an awareness implanted by a higher being.

Morals come from god? What about the golden rule, treat others as you would want to be treated. Human beings certainly understand pain, emotional and physical. We also have emotional bonds with people because of natural selection. The result is our consideration of other’s pain. The minimization of pain to others is then perceived as “good” and is the stem of our concept of morals.

 

[Mopar Muscle]

Have you ever looked at another religion, compared it to yours and said "Look at that fool, he is so wrong, why can't he see that his religion is false?"

Yea, well that guy is looking at you thinking the same damn thing.

Religion is a synthetic answer to the enexplained. Simple mythology, whether you like it or not.

I don't like to play bullchit games. I'll keep my 10%. Believe what you want, its none of my damn business anyways.

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by Gil
When I was talking about contradictions I was talking about the human recorders contradicting each other.
You won't find it.
That is pretty divine in its own right. If two guys who witnessed an event were questioned by the same person within an hour of each other, there would be some contradictions in their stories.
This Bible was written over 1000+ years and doesn't contradict itself. Pretty amazing in my book.

I'm not going to jump in here with verbal fists flying, but I've heard this said numerous times. Yet I've never seen any proof of it, and I've seen numerous places where the Bible is literally self-contradicting. I'm wondering where this little tidbit cvame from.

 

[milefile]

Originally posted by Mopar Muscle
Religion is... synthetic...

👍

 

[Mopar Muscle]

I never said "....."

 

[milefile]

Use of "..." means originally there was something there that has been left out. But I'm sure an intelligent gentleman such as yourself already knew that.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Please, elnlighten me on how the most popular verse in the bible can be directly contradicted because of a technicallity.

Again, why are you going to doctrine in a thread about creation vs evolution. Yes, I can show you other scriptures and give examples of people that followed Jesus and went to hell, specifically Judas. But that's not what this thread is about is it?

Judas knowingly and purposefully betrayed Jesus; hence, he did not believe IN him = damnation

<-RER waiting patiently for enlightenment 'on-topic'->

 

[Swift]

<-RER waiting patiently for enlightenment 'on-topic'->

Judas believed in Jesus as much as the other disiples. and infact he could've very easily found forgiveness and been saved. But he chose to kill himself instead. Suicide = hell. No matter who you are or what you have.

Saul of Tarsus on the other hand, was a jewish scholar that killed many christians in the early church but was struck down by Jesus on the road to Damascus and accepted Jesus as Lord. His name was then changed to Paul and he went on to right over half the new testament.

Your salvation not only depends on accepting Jesus, but living for him. If one chooses not to, after they have been shown, then they are accountable.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

Judas believed in Jesus as much as the other disiples. and infact he could've very easily found forgiveness and been saved. But he chose to kill himself instead. Suicide = hell. No matter who you are or what you have.

Saul of Tarsus on the other hand, was a jewish scholar that killed many christians in the early church but was struck down by Jesus on the road to Damascus and accepted Jesus as Lord. His name was then changed to Paul and he went on to right over half the new testament.

Your salvation not only depends on accepting Jesus, but living for him. If one chooses not to, after they have been shown, then they are accountable.

So you admit that as long as you dont kill yourself, you can kill as many people as you want and still enter the kingdom of heaven yeah?

 

[Dave A]

This topic is stupid, it's a never ending argument where neither side can actually prove it's right 100%. Me personally, I believe in God, I believe he created the universe and I believe the bible to be a book from God. I appreciate other people don't believe the same as me but they can't prove what I believe is wrong, at the same time I can't prove what I believe because both sides are left with people using faith in their argument or belief.

Also Swift, the bible doesn't say bad people go to hell, hell is a place created by people to control peoples behaivior, that can be proven. The bible talks about Gehena which many churches turned into hell, however Gehena simply means the grave, or the second death, when you die and your in Gehena your no longer in God's memory so theres no chance of carrying on existing in heaven or wherever you would believe your going to go after death.

 

[Swift]

So you admit that as long as you dont kill yourself, you can kill as many people as you want and still enter the kingdom of heaven yeah?

LOL, anyone that lives for Christ and is a murderer ISN'T living for christ. Now, can a person be a murderer, find jesus and be saved. Certainly. But they are going to pay for there sins in this life.

Much like David. He was the great king of israel. But he commited adultry and murder. He was forgiven, "Jesus will sit on the throne of David" but he had to pay for his sins in this life. His son Absolumb betrayed him and there was a civil war in Israel in which Absolumb was killed. Solomon, the wisest man ever and a son of David inherited his father's sinful trate and had many wives that pulled his heart away from God.

What I'm saying is that "He who believes and is baptised shall be saved" Not he who does what he wants, knowing what Jesus teaches, and repents on his deathbed.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

This topic is stupid, it's a never ending argument where neither side can actually prove it's right 100%. Me personally, I believe in God, I believe he created the universe and I believe the bible to be a book from God. I appreciate other people don't believe the same as me but they can't prove what I believe is wrong, at the same time I can't prove what I believe because both sides are left with people using faith in their argument or belief.

Also Swift, the bible doesn't say bad people go to hell, hell is a place created by people to control peoples behaivior, that can be proven. The bible talks about Gehena which many churches turned into hell, however Gehena simply means the grave, or the second death, when you die and your in Gehena your no longer in God's memory so theres no chance of carrying on existing in heaven or wherever you would believe your going to go after death.

Contrary to how you feel in your first paragraph I have to admit that second one is extrememly insightful; thatnk you for taking the time to post even though you feel your efforts are fruitless.

 

[Dave A]

Edit: Swif's already answered, anyway thanks for you r comment Red eye racer.

 

[Red Eye Racer]

LOL, anyone that lives for Christ and is a murderer ISN'T living for christ. Now, can a person be a murderer, find jesus and be saved. Certainly. But they are going to pay for there sins in this life.

Much like David. He was the great king of israel. But he commited adultry and murder. He was forgiven, "Jesus will sit on the throne of David" but he had to pay for his sins in this life. His son Absolumb betrayed him and there was a civil war in Israel in which Absolumb was killed. Solomon, the wisest man ever and a son of David inherited his father's sinful trate and had many wives that pulled his heart away from God.

What I'm saying is that "He who believes and is baptised shall be saved" Not he who does what he wants, knowing what Jesus teaches, and repents on his deathbed.

sooooooo, all those spanish conquestidores who lived every moment of thier lives FOR god and we're completely assured that they we doing god's work by irraticating the America's of non-believers, DONT get into heaven? They were doing god's work, whether by todays standards or not; that was the path they were placed on.

 

[Dave A]

This is a subject thats going to give a different answer depending on the persons faith an knowledge of the Bible, my faith is that faithful people who've followed God correctly will be given eternal life in god's kingdom, people who haven't been faithful will be judged by God and it's up to him who gets a second chance and who goes to Gehena. To ask if thoes conquestiadores would'nt have any chance of getting into heaven is in my understanding not true, they have a chance, but to ask if they WILL cannot be answered. In my understanding, only people who have suffered divine judgment go straight to Gehena without being judged first.

 

[Swift]

Also Swift, the bible doesn't say bad people go to hell, hell is a place created by people to control peoples behaivior, that can be proven. The bible talks about Gehena which many churches turned into hell, however Gehena simply means the grave, or the second death, when you die and your in Gehena your no longer in God's memory so theres no chance of carrying on existing in heaven or wherever you would believe your going to go after death.

LFS, I know we have a mutual respect so you're not flaming me here and I don't intend to flame you.

This is Jesus telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man:

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Also

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

As you can see, Jesus does speak of a place where there will be tormments and weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is hell. You are somewhat correct about the origins of hell. Hell was created for the devil and the fallen angels and was not meant for man. However, when man rejects God and doesn't go into heaven, there is only one other place they can go.

 

[Swift]

sooooooo, all those spanish conquestidores who lived every moment of thier lives FOR god and we're completely assured that they we doing god's work by irraticating the America's of non-believers, DONT get into heaven? They were doing god's work, whether by todays standards or not; that was the path they were placed on.

As LFS has said, we cannot say who went to heaven and who didn't in many circumstances. Especially ones like that.

Look at John Newton. He was a captain fo a slave trading ship. what worse occupation could you have in the sense of morals? But he's also the one that wrote one of the most popular gospel songs in history, Amazing Grace.

So you just can't look a a group of people, like slave traders, that said, "We're bring christianity to the savage africans" and ask if they went to heaven or not. I'm sure some did, but not all. Just like everyone else, including church goers today.

Jesus doesn't force himself on you. He gives you a choice of free will. So genereally speaking, forcing christianity on someone is an oxymoron. Introducing someone to Christ and letting them decide is how Jesus intended it.

 

[smellysocks12]

It looks like a good idea for me to stay out of this topic, especially when seeing the opinion of a moderator here I would probably get banned in no time.

 

[Delirious]

and even more precious pearls casted to swine...

 

[Danoff]

my faith is that faithful people who've followed God correctly will be given eternal life in god's kingdom, people who haven't been faithful will be judged by God

Doesn't that sound a little contrived to you? That if you're good you'll live forever... and if you're bad you'll be punished forever. Gives you a nice warm fuzzy just thinking about it right? The people who did wrong will eventually be judged - justice will be done. But you, you'll get to live forever. Hey that's great.

Sounds made up to me.

 

[Dave A]

LFS, I know we have a mutual respect so you're not flaming me here and I don't intend to flame you.

No flaming involved I came off a bit wrong in that post anyway a bit too much it's like this and thats that attitude which I apologise for. I'm would put the idea of Hell and it's mention in the bible down to how you interpret the scriptures, a lot of the bible is meant in a symbolic sense so I guess you can view that and say so that means Gehenna must be Hell, or you can say thats symbolic, but sybolic of what? I've looked into that and you seem to know the bible so I'd say you will have too, but what I came to is different to what you came to. The term Hell was created by men after the bible was written, so it's up to you to come to the conclusion of whether or not Gehenna and Hell are the same which is an opinion I respect, I just see it in a different way to yourself.

 

[smellysocks12]

Ok now explain this. Why would someone get judged by God for killing another human being, yet while almost every person on this planet eats meat, they don't get judged by God for killing a pig. I really hate how narrowminded this whole christian thought is. Killing another human is considered forbidden, yet slaughtering a pig isn't. Isn't a pig a creation of God either? Sure, people might be a little more gifted mentally, but from a God's point of view why would that make us more important than a pig?


Another thing, why is it only people going to church, believing in God? Why would we go to hell if we don't pray so many times a week and donate this much money to church, yet dogs aren't allowed in church? That sounds like hypocracy to me. Isn't a dog allowed to say a hail mary in church, or at least think one since they can't talk? Why would someone go to hell for killing another man, yet in nature some species of birds throw their weak brothers and sisters out of their nest so they can get all the food. Will all these birds go to hell?

 

[Delirious]

since when did animals have a soul?

 

[Dave A]

Animals are in subjection to humans, theres your answer. We were given the right to use animals as workers and for food from God just like god has the right to do whatever he so wishesh with us. Luckily he's a god of love so he offers us all the chance to enter into his kingdom and re-posses the perfection the human race lost when Adam and Eve sinned.

 

[Dave A]

Another thing, why is it only people going to church, believing in God? Why would we go to hell if we don't pray so many times a week and donate this much money to church, yet dogs aren't allowed in church? That sounds like hypocracy to me. Isn't a dog allowed to say a hail mary in church, or at least think one since they can't talk? Why would someone go to hell for killing another man, yet in nature some species of birds throw their weak brothers and sisters out of their nest so they can get all the food. Will all these birds go to hell?

Comapring animals to humans is wrong, we are more advanced than animals we have a higher level of self awareness and intelligence and we are accountable to god, animals are not.

To say you'll go to Hell if you don't pray a certain number of times is wrong, God's asks you to pray to him through Jesus, you do this when you do it, thats up to you. Again no one should be saying you will go to Hell if you don't go to church, again Jesus said don't forsake the gathering of yourselves together, ie worship together but not all the time, it's not for us to say who gets in god's kingdom and who doesn't.

 

[Swift]

Doesn't that sound a little contrived to you? That if you're good you'll live forever... and if you're bad you'll be punished forever. Gives you a nice warm fuzzy just thinking about it right? The people who did wrong will eventually be judged - justice will be done. But you, you'll get to live forever. Hey that's great.

Sounds made up to me.

Sounds like Libertarianism to me. You're responsible for your own soul's destiny. Noone else's. YOu can get assistance from God when needed. But the primary decision is up to you. That's exaclty what you're saying in the Libertarian thread.

Comapring animals to humans is wrong, we are more advanced than animals we have a higher level of self awareness and intelligence and we are accountable to god, animals are not.

To say you'll go to Hell if you don't pray a certain number of times is wrong, God's asks you to pray to him through Jesus, you do this when you do it, thats up to you. Again no one should be saying you will go to Hell if you don't go to church, again Jesus said don't forsake the gathering of yourselves together, ie worship together but not all the time, it's not for us to say who gets in god's kingdom and who doesn't.

L4S, Excellent answer! 👍

 

[Famine]

since when did animals have a soul?

DO me a favour. You'll enjoy it too.

Get a puppy. Something like a six week old black labrador retreiver. That dog is yours.

12 years later, when it dies, come back here. Read what you just said and think - all that time spent with my dog. The laughs, the playing, the expression it managed as if it were raising its eyebrows - which is weird because they don't HAVE eyebrows, the face it made when it'd done something naughty and didn't want to let on, the constant, unconditional companionship, the fact that it was, to all intents a purposes, a member of your family, a friend and better than some people you know.

None of that counted. Any of it. It wasn't real, because animals don't have a soul.



live4speed - Who says we're more advanced than animals? We have an opposable thumb so we can work ring pulls, we walk upright so we can fall downstairs and bang our heads on low ceilings and a disproportionately large brain so that we can nut people in bars of a Friday. We've spent thousands of years working out new ways to be complete and total bastards to each other, and enjoyed it.

Whereas, say, the three-toed sloth spends its life in a tree, sleeping, eating, crapping and shagging.

Hmm.

 

[Danoff]

Sounds like Libertarianism to me. You're responsible for your own soul's destiny. Noone else's. YOu can get assistance from God when needed. But the primary decision is up to you. That's exaclty what you're saying in the Libertarian thread.

No doubt it sound good. A little too good. It's so warm and fuzzy in fact that it sounds like someone made it up.