Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)
- Thread starter Nicholas9889
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- phil_75
Forza 4 Review by insidesimracing, (Physics score for GT5 12.5/15 if you're wondering)
http://www.insidesimracing.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=6327&sid=cd6b129f90ec051f521a8fa538046be8
http://www.insidesimracing.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=6327&sid=cd6b129f90ec051f521a8fa538046be8
- 8,945
- F1 chimp land
- AnotherStory
Where are all those fanboys? 
- 15
- brainzombie1212
gran turismo has more realistic driving physics, however forza is more realistic if you screw up and crash. Forza's physics engine is really geared up to look dramatc as much as be realistic.
Scaff
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Any chance of actually expanding on that with some examples and how they relate to the real world?
Scaff
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- maxpontiac
Scaff -
Just because I have been involved in the construction industry for 10 plus years and have managed commerical and residential projects it doesn't mean I am an electrician. Sure, I have an idea of how it works, but by no means do I have any place wiring a building.
I respect your opinions and appreciate your experience in the automotive industry but the same logic applies to you. You must understand that just because you are in the car industry, it doesn't make you the end all authority on physics.
As I stated earlier, it is a waste of time to debate such trivial nonsense to me because in the end, there is no point. GT fans will say GT has the better physics, and FM fans will do the same. It's obvious what we both are.
Enjoy your discussion sir.
Just because I have been involved in the construction industry for 10 plus years and have managed commerical and residential projects it doesn't mean I am an electrician. Sure, I have an idea of how it works, but by no means do I have any place wiring a building.
I respect your opinions and appreciate your experience in the automotive industry but the same logic applies to you. You must understand that just because you are in the car industry, it doesn't make you the end all authority on physics.
As I stated earlier, it is a waste of time to debate such trivial nonsense to me because in the end, there is no point. GT fans will say GT has the better physics, and FM fans will do the same. It's obvious what we both are.
Enjoy your discussion sir.
- 10,956
- Canada
Scaff -
Just because I have been involved in the construction industry for 10 plus years and have managed commerical and residential projects it doesn't mean I am an electrician. Sure, I have an idea of how it works, but by no means do I have any place wiring a building.
I respect your opinions and appreciate your experience in the automotive industry but the same logic applies to you. You must understand that just because you are in the car industry, it doesn't make you the end all authority on physics.
As I stated earlier, it is a waste of time to debate such trivial nonsense to me because in the end, there is no point. GT fans will say GT has the better physics, and FM fans will do the same. It's obvious what we both are.
Enjoy your discussion sir.
+1 👍 I love both games and they have great physics which teach me everything about cars. I don't like fan wars.
- 37
- south west
- wiggy-htid
ok gt is the best there is best there was and best there ever will be from day one gt has all ways been spot on and each game just gets better and better and whit a guy who love's helps makes and build cars you can't ask for much more ... or can you to this day i will say gt2 is my fav why crus it had everything you wanted from stand to racing mods wheels body kits every type of car ol new eveyday super to raceing and most cars in any car game up till gt5 i say gt was the start of something big gt2 was a dream gt3 new ere ps2 gt4 dream same gt5 new ere ps3 gt6 dream and forza has the physics missing but has everything eles that you want in gt i have mods it has eng swap can even sell cars online and in forza 4 can even have clubs and clubs meets so if they were both work togather we would have the best car game in the world its same whit fifa and pro
- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
That only goes for the biased ones who don't care to actually see what the truth is.
Also, what happens to people who are fans of both?
Scaff never claimed to be an end all authority, he merely stated that he has experience outside of video games and unsupported conjecture.
Scaff
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Scaff -
Just because I have been involved in the construction industry for 10 plus years and have managed commerical and residential projects it doesn't mean I am an electrician. Sure, I have an idea of how it works, but by no means do I have any place wiring a building.
I respect your opinions and appreciate your experience in the automotive industry but the same logic applies to you. You must understand that just because you are in the car industry, it doesn't make you the end all authority on physics.
As I stated earlier, it is a waste of time to debate such trivial nonsense to me because in the end, there is no point. GT fans will say GT has the better physics, and FM fans will do the same. It's obvious what we both are.
Enjoy your discussion sir.
If you consider it a waste of time discussing it, then I do have to question why you keep posting in it?
In regard to the assumption that I present myself as the "end all authority on physics", you may want to read a little closer as I have suggested no such thing. I have however taught both vehicle dynamics and driver education within the motor industry, so you building analogy falls a little on its face at that point. I do have both the background and experience to analysis to a reasonable degree some of the blatant nonsense that gets presented as fact at times (by both sides). If I'd spent my time in the motor industry just as a partsman you might have a point, however over a decade of it has been spent directly training dealership staff, with over six of those years with product and driver skills.
Now if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way then don't post here, but if you continue to simply post how pointless you feel it is, then you comments will be treated as spam. You may not find it of interest, but plenty do and plenty exists within both titles to warrant discussion.
Would you like some lists to get started?
GT5 Physics Issues
- Tyre and suspension modelling very, very basic
- Lateral g managed by a simple increment factor when changing tyres
- Absence of any torque effect to front or rear wheels from a standing start (possible issues with suspension and tyre model)
- Suspension tuning counter to real world logic
- Lift off oversteer almost non-existent
FM4 Physics Issues
- Lift off oversteer not correctly modeled in terms of severity (in particular for short wheelbase models
- Stability issues with braking need considerable work
- Lateral Inertia on countersteer too light (makes correction a little to easy)
- Grip levels off for some cars
- Longitudinal tyre deformation not present.
- Track temp does not have a significant enough effect on the tyre/track Mu value
- Suspension modelling still needs work
And that's just off the top of my head. Now I freely admit that I feel FM4 (and I do mean just 4) is ahead of GT5 and at times by a good margin (tyres). As such the often quoted "GT/FM is the only sim" or my favourite "Forza is just arcade" need addressing and I will continue to do so, regardless of if you feel I should or if you believe I am qualified to do so.
Scaff
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Scaff
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I agree. Seems pretty funny this thread is still alive. Wow.Poor GT5 and FM4 being compared 24/7...
The threads exists because its a discussion that is going to occur and as such the staff discussed and agreed that dedicated threads allow those topics to be contained, and thus avoid having every other thread on the site turn into a GT vs FM topic (as happened before they existed).
Scaff
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- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
ReincarnationB
Are you sure about that?
Why would it be unbiased in the Forza forum?
Completely agree with your point about the flawed tire model and suspension. Not sure if the ridiculous tire wear was a decision by PD or just a flaw on the physics. The reason I say this is because the "true" sims, the PC sims such as iRacing, rFactor or GTR 2, who are superior to GT5 physics wise, are less successful on sales. GT5 isn't a full on sim probably due to marketing, so they could sell more.
I own Race 07 and all its add ons and that game, physics wise, is just superior. FFB is miles ahead, you feel the brakes locking up, weight transfer, clutch works properly, and so on... Same goes for other PC sims. This, however, does not mean that PD can't make a real sim. SMS, Slightly Mad Studios, developers of NFS Shift, are working on Project CARS which is improving every week and it's in the right direction to become a great sim and not the arcade crap that Shift 1 and 2 were. I think this is an example of a developing team that was limited by its publisher(EA). Stupid EA. They can succeed on the physics department but they werent allowed to and I believe this is the case with PD. Gran Turismo on PC would simply be mind blowing and hands down the best AND MOST REALISTIC racing game.
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- 7,601
- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
I must add to this, as an aero engineering major, aerodynamics. You could run a better aero model on PS1. And even with GT5's flawed model, they could at least pick values that make sense (ie, the old race cars should be lifting).
I'll say that Forza 3's wasn't amazing either (though I didn't get to test it as much and have not had a chance to look at Forza 4 aero), but at least increasing lift did create more drag, even if it seemed a bit small from what I remember.
Scaff
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While I agree that at times publishers have limited the developer when it comes to console sims, and that Shift are classic examples. They could have been so much better titles had they been given the chance and its does bode well for Project CARS.
However I'm not convinced at all that this is the case with regard to PD and the GT series, in GT5 I actually see very little publisher involvement up until the last minute 'quick publish the damn thing'. Sad as it is to say I feel the issues with have with GT5 are firmly with PD and as a result of the team developing a title in almost total isolation.
FM4's aero is a little better that it was in FM3 but still not great, however its still better that the aero effects in GT5.
Scaff
Nail head.
In terms of gaming, providing what people want is more important than being accurate. Better tyres should provide more grip, more HP more acceleration etc etc.
GT5 provides a stereotypical view of how cars should behave and as most wont know any difference, it is perfect for the job.
Ie if a GT5 car appears to drive like a car it is a car. If a forza a car feels like a boat with tyres, it's a boat with tyres, even if the physics are more accurate
Scaff
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Scaff
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Some feel like sport boats, some like ocean liners
Race cars feel best to me in F4.
I'm going to have to ask you to explain exactly what you mean, because never have I come across a car that feels like any sort of boat in FM4, even amar who has always been a vocal critic of the FFB in Forza seems to disagree with this:
So what would define this trait and what effect would it have on the vehicle in motion and my ability to control it?
Is it perfect? Of course not. Does it feel like a 'boat'? No, and from both a feel and a simulation point of view I rate it better that GT5, and this looks (and feels) just fine to me:
Scaff
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- 2,822
- Espoo
- GTP_Raitzi
Last time I described F4 to feel like baking bread
Of course it does not feel exactly like boat but that is what used to describe it. But you know what, your persistence have won me over to go to f4 again and I will get back to this thread then. As additional info, I did not like 2.04 FFB patch of GT5 which made it to me feel too dead in the middle and closer to what I experienced with F4. But now I remain silent and try find time to play F4
Scaff
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Last time I described F4 to feel like baking bread
It will be interest to see what you think, have you played since the last update?
Scaff
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- Exorcet
- OE Exorcet
What if people want accuracy? After all, isn't that the appeal of a sim? And if accuracy, which is completely objective, is not the goal, then how can you say that one is worse than the other? That would be down to preference, and this discussion would be moot.
Forza 4 felt nothing like a boat. It felt better than GT5. The old Mercury felt like a car build on an outdated flimsy chassis compared to the Ferrari, and switching to the Subaru surprised me at first given how different it felt from the other two. In GT, the biggest difference between the cars would be the arbitrary grip multiplier, and the drivetrain layout. If Forza, it felt like the differences in the chassis and suspension were captured as well.
I am however not up to date with either game. I stopped playing GT heavily around October, and I haven't played any form of Forza 4 outside of the demo. Reading Scaff's comments, browsing the GT forum here, and seeing Forza 4 vids makes me think that not much has changed.
Wow.., scanning through some of the replies in this topic is quite interesting. First thing.., keep in mind that this is a comparison done on a GT dedicated forum, and not a general racing forum open to all titles. So naturally you're going to get a lot of fanboy responses. You're also going to find many responses from people who have actually not played Forza-4.., and you're going to get opinions from people who based their remarks on what they heard from a friend who knew a guy, who's cousin that's dating this girl, that has a brother who played the demo.
This topic needs to be broken down into two different categories. Those who use a game pad and those who use a wheel. Also.., I don't want to offend anyone.., but the reality is that if you use a game pad for either title.., you really aren't in a good position to give an accurate response when it relates to physics as they apply to "real life". Even wheel users can only go so far as well considering these are console racing titles..., but the fact remains.., regardless of what title you play (be it GT, Forza, iRacing, RFactor, ect)., the moment you grab a game pad ALL elements of simulation style racing are OUT THE WINDOW. Like it or not.., as soon as you grab that game pad you're racing ARCADE STYLE. Game pads have so much filter dampening applied to them.., and this has to be done to make the vehicles drivable.
Now.., I own BOTH Forza-4 and GT-5. I also have a racing wheel for both of my consoles as well (both wheels also utilizing force feedback). In my opinion (when using a racing wheel) Forza feels a tad more realistic because of the amount of work put into the tire physics. One of Forza-3's advancements was the inclusion of tire deformation into the physics. This has been greatly enhanced with Forza-4.., AND Turn-10 worked directly with Pirelli Tires using their data for this latest title. Another area that I find absolutely shocking that so man dedicated GT fans just gloss over is the exclusion of the ability to adjust tire pressure (a feature that has been present in Forza for some time now). When it comes down to the tire physics I can't help but question what PD has done in order to compensate for all of their vehicles not utilizing this feature (as it certainly has a significant impact on handling.., and can make or brake that tenth of a second on a lap time).
I think both titles have their good and weak points when using a wheel to race with. I think GT does a better job with force feedback, but Forza's is still quite good. I think Forza handles track side conditions better (such as much more realistic feel of the curbs when using them). Both titles IMO are very unrealistic when it comes to correcting mistakes while driving using a wheel (and a controller). The fellas over at SimRacingTonight made an excellent point about this too. They agree that NO racing SIM or console title accurately replicates correcting a vehicle.., and that it's much easier to correct one in real life than in a computer SIM or console SIM.
Now comparing the physics between both titles using a controller is a mixed bag IMO. Using just the default settings (out of the box) I'd give the edge to GT. However.., that's not because GT's physics engine is better (because you can't accurately judge physics with a controller).., it's because PD has done an AMAZING job with balancing the dampening filters for controller use. The chase cam IMO is much easier to use in GT than Forza because of this.
However.., Forza-4 takes it a bit further for those wanting more of a challenge when using a controller. In Forza-4 you now have two options for pad use. There's the standard and the new "simulation" mode. The simulation mode reduces the dampening filters and challenges the player more.
In the end.., I'm glad that I have both titles.., and I will always own both titles. Neither of these titles IMO is a failed product either. Both are well designed console racing SIMS. Each offers something different, and BOTH offering a very rewarding experience.
Another thing to take into consideration is that we're in a transitional phase with both titles now. It's very likely that the next version of each title will be on a completely new console. Both titles are pushing their respective platforms to the limits now. Forza is a great example because there have been three title releases on the current 360. They're going out with a bang on Forza-4..., and clearly PD is going out with a bang on the PS-3 with GT.
Again.., I'm just glad that I own both and whether anyone agrees with my position.., at least I can honestly say that I've not only played both.., but I also OWN both and play them almost every day.
This topic needs to be broken down into two different categories. Those who use a game pad and those who use a wheel. Also.., I don't want to offend anyone.., but the reality is that if you use a game pad for either title.., you really aren't in a good position to give an accurate response when it relates to physics as they apply to "real life". Even wheel users can only go so far as well considering these are console racing titles..., but the fact remains.., regardless of what title you play (be it GT, Forza, iRacing, RFactor, ect)., the moment you grab a game pad ALL elements of simulation style racing are OUT THE WINDOW. Like it or not.., as soon as you grab that game pad you're racing ARCADE STYLE. Game pads have so much filter dampening applied to them.., and this has to be done to make the vehicles drivable.
Now.., I own BOTH Forza-4 and GT-5. I also have a racing wheel for both of my consoles as well (both wheels also utilizing force feedback). In my opinion (when using a racing wheel) Forza feels a tad more realistic because of the amount of work put into the tire physics. One of Forza-3's advancements was the inclusion of tire deformation into the physics. This has been greatly enhanced with Forza-4.., AND Turn-10 worked directly with Pirelli Tires using their data for this latest title. Another area that I find absolutely shocking that so man dedicated GT fans just gloss over is the exclusion of the ability to adjust tire pressure (a feature that has been present in Forza for some time now). When it comes down to the tire physics I can't help but question what PD has done in order to compensate for all of their vehicles not utilizing this feature (as it certainly has a significant impact on handling.., and can make or brake that tenth of a second on a lap time).
I think both titles have their good and weak points when using a wheel to race with. I think GT does a better job with force feedback, but Forza's is still quite good. I think Forza handles track side conditions better (such as much more realistic feel of the curbs when using them). Both titles IMO are very unrealistic when it comes to correcting mistakes while driving using a wheel (and a controller). The fellas over at SimRacingTonight made an excellent point about this too. They agree that NO racing SIM or console title accurately replicates correcting a vehicle.., and that it's much easier to correct one in real life than in a computer SIM or console SIM.
Now comparing the physics between both titles using a controller is a mixed bag IMO. Using just the default settings (out of the box) I'd give the edge to GT. However.., that's not because GT's physics engine is better (because you can't accurately judge physics with a controller).., it's because PD has done an AMAZING job with balancing the dampening filters for controller use. The chase cam IMO is much easier to use in GT than Forza because of this.
However.., Forza-4 takes it a bit further for those wanting more of a challenge when using a controller. In Forza-4 you now have two options for pad use. There's the standard and the new "simulation" mode. The simulation mode reduces the dampening filters and challenges the player more.
In the end.., I'm glad that I have both titles.., and I will always own both titles. Neither of these titles IMO is a failed product either. Both are well designed console racing SIMS. Each offers something different, and BOTH offering a very rewarding experience.
Another thing to take into consideration is that we're in a transitional phase with both titles now. It's very likely that the next version of each title will be on a completely new console. Both titles are pushing their respective platforms to the limits now. Forza is a great example because there have been three title releases on the current 360. They're going out with a bang on Forza-4..., and clearly PD is going out with a bang on the PS-3 with GT.
Again.., I'm just glad that I own both and whether anyone agrees with my position.., at least I can honestly say that I've not only played both.., but I also OWN both and play them almost every day.
- 10,956
- Canada
You deserve my respect. Finally someone agrees that both games are great, and I'm a game pad user. That's right I'd said it, and I'm proud of it. 👍 So can this thread please be done and over with. squeakD just shut it down. 
I see nothing wrong with game pad use either. Even though I have wheels on both systems.., I still go back and forth between my wheels and game pads. The wheel is great and adds another level of realism that cannot be accomplished through a game pad.., but for those days when I just feel like chilling on the couch or laying on the bed.., the game pads are great.
I still say this topic needs to be broken down into two categories though. Comparing physics in both games is completely different if you're using a pad or a wheel.
I still say this topic needs to be broken down into two categories though. Comparing physics in both games is completely different if you're using a pad or a wheel.
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