Forza 4 vs GT5 physics (read the first post before contributing)

[Exorcet]

as soon as you grab that game pad you're racing ARCADE STYLE.

I can't really agree with this. You can exaggerate to make a point, but that goes too far. Controller or wheel, you still need to drive the same. No one with a controller is going to have trouble distinguishing GT from NFS or Burnout. Throttle modulation, over/understeer, shift points, apex, etc all still exist no matter how you get your inputs into the game.

The difference between controller and wheel isn't realism, they both use the same physics. It's level of control. The wheel user has much more. Both the controller and wheel user can take a bunch of cars out to drive and notice that the physics uses a constant to determine tire grip.

 

[squeakD]

I can't really agree with this. You can exaggerate to make a point, but that goes too far. Controller or wheel, you still need to drive the same. No one with a controller is going to have trouble distinguishing GT from NFS or Burnout. Throttle modulation, over/understeer, shift points, apex, etc all still exist no matter how you get your inputs into the game.

The difference between controller and wheel isn't realism, they both use the same physics. It's level of control. The wheel user has much more. Both the controller and wheel user can take a bunch of cars out to drive and notice that the physics uses a constant to determine tire grip.

I'm sorry.., but no.., it doesn't matter if they still use the same physics engine regardless of controller input. Fact remains that one has a significant amount of damper filtering applied to it that greatly reduces realism.

Using your (fingers) to brake, accelerate, turn, shift, ect does nothing IMO in translating that feel to "In Real Life". If PD and T10 were to remove the dampening filters on the controllers you'd really have a better understanding as to how much they truly affect game play.

Using a wheel and pedal set.., or going even further by using a wheel with a pedal set that has a clutch, AND a gated shifter is how you "more accurately" judge a racing titles physics.

Even SimBin (a company well established in the computer racing SIM market) makes it a point to note with their console title that the physics application is different based upon the controller option you choose. Paint it any color you want because at the end of the day.., game pad usage is "arcade style racing". I personally see nothing wrong with it either.., as I use game pads all the time.., but at least know well enough that the pad in no way simulates real life driving. Again.., even the wheels only go so far with that simulation too.

People tend to take offense when the term "Arcade" is applied to game pad input.., but that's just how it is. Even with the same physics engine, one over the other MUST have more filter dampening so that the vehicles are reasonably controllable.

For example.., getting into a beast like the Zonda R.., or an LMP cannot even remotely convey accuracy in terms of physics with a game pad. Even with all the assists turned off "vibration/rumble" don't give you an accurate feeling as to what that vehicle is doing underneath you. We've just learned to adjust to the rumble effects on the pads because there's no way a pad is going to accurately simulate what happens when the rear end of one of these monster race cars gets out from underneath you.

The pads don't accurately reflect wheel spin, the force you feel on a wheel going into a turn, ect.

 

[Scaff]

I'm sorry.., but no.., it doesn't matter if they still use the same physics engine regardless of controller input. Fact remains that one has a significant amount of damper filtering applied to it that greatly reduces realism.

Using your (fingers) to brake, accelerate, turn, shift, ect does nothing IMO in translating that feel to "In Real Life". If PD and T10 were to remover the dampening filters on the controllers you'd really have a better understanding as to how much they truly affect game play.

Using a wheel and pedal set.., or going even further by using a wheel with a pedal set that has a clutch, AND a gated shifter is how you "more accurately" judge a racing titles physics.

Even SimBin makes it a point to note with their console title that the physics application is different based upon the controller option you choose. Paint it any color you want because at the end of the day.., game pad usage is "arcade style racing". I personally see nothing wrong with it either.., as I use game pads all the time.., but at least know well enough that the pad in no way simulates real life driving. Again.., even the wheels only go so far with that simulation too.

I would have to agree with Exorcet here that I think your overstating this to quite a degree.

I don't believe that anyone would argue that controllers add filters to the input you are using and in that regard make it harder to judge that a wheel/pedal combo, or that even wheel/pedals are compromised to a degree.

However to state that "the pad in no way simulates real life driving" is just not true, if that were the case then the input you are making would have zero effect on how the car behaves, nor would any form of feedback tell you what the car was doing. That is, in my opinion, nonsense. You are still required to modulate your steering/braking/throttle applications with a controller, and as such it is therefore a simulation. It may be lower on the scale that a wheel/pedal combo, but a simulation of car control/input/feedback none the less.

Does using a wheel/pedal set-up allow me to tell the difference between the two titles in discussion and between differing cars within those titles and how the physics are being simulated? Yes it does.

Does that all disappear when you pick up a controller and attempt to do the same thing? No, not at all. It may be more difficult to recognise the differences, but they are still identifiable and certainly a long way from "in no way simulates real life driving".

Overall I agree with the bulk of what you have posted, but on this point we differ.


Scaff

 

[Exorcet]

I'm sorry.., but no.., it doesn't matter if they still use the same physics engine regardless of controller input. Fact remains that one has a significant amount of damper filtering applied to it that greatly reduces realism.

The same kind of filtering you get when driving a real car with stability control turned on. The physics don't change, so the car is going to react the same to a specific input no matter what. The wheel user gets a wider range of inputs to use. That's the difference.

Using your (fingers) to brake, accelerate, turn, shift, ect does nothing IMO in translating that feel to "In Real Life". If PD and T10 were to remover the dampening filters on the controllers you'd really have a better understanding as to how much they truly affect game play.

The real life feel doesn't factor into physics. I already know how controllers effect gameplay. I've driven real cars, virtual cars with a controller, and virtual cars with a wheel. But the fact remains that the virtual physics are the same regardless of controls.

Using a wheel and pedal set.., or going even further by using a wheel with a pedal set that has a clutch, AND a gated shifter is how you "more accurately" judge a racing titles physics.

If the car you're trying to model has a clutch and shifter. No doubt, using a wheel brings you closer to replicating a real driver in a real car for the most part, but you don't need to be a driver to understand or challenge the physics that are at work underneath it all. Engineers don't always go out and drive the car, or test whatever it is that they're making, directly everytime they want to check something. It's a waste of time, and sometimes it's even detrimental to do things that way. Sometimes it's best to step back and see if the physics can pass the simple tests, ones that don't require driving even.

Even SimBin makes it a point to note with their console title that the physics application is different based upon the controller option you choose. Paint it any color you want because at the end of the day.., game pad usage is "arcade style racing". I personally see nothing wrong with it either.., as I use game pads all the time.., but at least know well enough that the pad in no way simulates real life driving. Again.., even the wheels only go so far with that simulation too.

Well, that's Simbin, they aren't really part of this discussion. In GT, you get the same physics at all times. The controller just tweaks your steering. I agree that it does make a difference, but it doesn't keep you from seeing the physics engine.

 

[Scaff]

People tend to take offense when the term "Arcade" is applied to game pad input.., but that's just how it is. Even with the same physics engine, one over the other MUST have more filter dampening so that the vehicles are reasonably controllable.

No offence taken, I just don't agree with you that "the pad in no way simulates real life driving"

For example.., getting into a beast like the Zonda R.., or an LMP cannot even remotely convey accuracy in terms of physics with a game pad. Even with all the assists turned off "vibration/rumble" don't give you an accurate feeling as to what that vehicle is doing underneath you. We've just learned to adjust to the rumble effects on the pads because there's no way a pad is going to accurately simulate what happens when the rear end of one of these monster race cars gets out from underneath you.

That's no different at all with a wheel/pedal combo, because that gives you no idea how a car is yawing at all, regardless of how good the force feedback is.

Given this logic not much exists in that regard between a controller and a wheel/pedal combo. A controller tries to model it using rumble and a wheel does it via force feedback, neither is a particularly good way of doing it, so I don't really see why (regarding yaw and how its replicated) one should be held as vastly superior to the other.

The pads don't accurately reflect wheel spin, the force you feel on a wheel going into a turn, ect.

Neither does a wheel, both are 'lite' versions of the real world. Does a wheel do it better? Yes. Does a controller do it so badly that its pointless? No, not in my opinion. However I do feel that a big difference exists in this regard between FM4 and GT5.


Scaff

 

[squeakD]

I don't think one is so much more superior to the other.., but when it comes to getting a "more accurate connection" to the titles physics engine.., a wheel wins hands down.

Truth is NO simulator gives you that TRUE feeling of racing because regardless even the best wheel set ups are only using force feedback and rumble/vibration. They do however get you closer to a more realistic feeling.

Unless you've got the money to invest into one of these massive racing rigs that use hydraulics ect.., we're all missing the "true realism effect".

Again.., it's just a matter of opinion . Me.., I don't see realism in judging a physics engine with a game pad because a pad doesn't connect you to the titles physics engine as accurately as a wheel does. Sure.., others are going to disagree with that though.

 

[Scaff]

I don't think one is so much more superior to the other.., but when it comes to getting a "more accurate connection" to the titles physics engine.., a wheel wins hands down.

I have to be honest that's not how you originally came across, as you appeared to be outright dismissing a controller as being in anyway remotely realistic as an input device.

Truth is NO simulator gives you that TRUE feeling of racing because regardless even the best wheel set ups are only using force feedback and rumble/vibration. They do however get you closer to a more realistic feeling.

Quite agree, but more realistic for one doesn't automatically discount the other.

Unless you've got the money to invest into one of these massive racing rigs that use hydraulics ect.., we're all missing the "true realism effect".

Used them and even they still fall short.

Again.., it's just a matter of opinion . Me.., I don't see realism in judging a physics engine with a game pad because a pad doesn't connect you to the titles physics engine as accurately as a wheel does. Sure.., others are going to disagree with that though.

If you were using the controller as the only form of sensory interface you might have a point, but the visual and auditory aspect play a much larger part that many give it credit for. Its for that reason why a solid 60fps is something I feel is critical, as seeing how the reactions of my input are reflected is vital, as is hearing them - which is the reason why tyre noise is so overdone in sims - its not real but it is an often overlooked part of the simulation (try turning tyre noise off to see what I mean).

Your taking one single factor of the whole and focusing on it, when other areas contribute in a major (but less obvious) way.


Scaff

 

[SlyckTires]

I think the thing I'm most envious of Forza owners for is probably the many different gameplay modes available. The other day I was round a mate's and another friend was setting 'rival' laps for us to beat. He couldn't play online since his connection was too slow, but still there was a way to compete.

Basically, the game 'structure' just seems so much better.

 

[V4.SKUNK]

I got both. Have a wheel for GT5 and have used a wheel at my friends on Forza4. To me GT5 seems to be better because there are some cars which are very difficult to drive like the RUF BTR86, Lancia stratos, McLaren MP4, F40 etc...Forza4 on the other hand seems to be less harsh and much more forgiving.
I also think GT5 has a lot it could learn from Forza like actual good realistic engine sounds instead of hairdryers *cough* (GT5), the telemetry, tyres, customisation etc...I also think Feel Forza feels like a more polished whole game. In my opinion though GT5 has the edge in the actual driving when using a good wheel.

 

[Spagetti69]

^I've been doing my own top gear times on Forza. Try the SCC ultimate aero or Noble M600 for some difficult rides. SCC especially.

Plenty more. Sagaris and cobra off top of my head oh and the testarossa.

 

[MaDHaX]

I got both. Have a wheel for GT5 and have used a wheel at my friends on Forza4. To me GT5 seems to be better because there are some cars which are very difficult to drive like the RUF BTR86, Lancia stratos, McLaren MP4, F40 etc...Forza4 on the other hand seems to be less harsh and much more forgiving.
I also think GT5 has a lot it could learn from Forza like actual good realistic engine sounds instead of hairdryers *cough* (GT5), the telemetry, tyres, customisation etc...I also think Feel Forza feels like a more polished whole game. In my opinion though GT5 has the edge in the actual driving when using a good wheel.

Hey V4 I'm pretty sure i've seen you in GT5 sometime.

FM4 is not just a more polished game but T10 actually listen's to their fans more also which make's the fan's appreciate the game more.

(Example) - I recently had a browse on T10 website and found two very interesting threads, one being "Forza Motorsport 4 Car Wish List" and the other "Forza Motorsport 4 Track Wish List" by the looks of it T10 shows me they want to give people a product they will really appreciate, another example they where not able to give us Porsche so they immediately switched over to RUF and they brought the RGT-8, RT12S and RT12R and also the tracks are a beauty so many real tracks.

PD say's they listen to us but who are they actually listening to? Who's idea was it anyway to make those tyre's wear so fast? Also how come all the DLC don't have modern super sports cars with the acception of the V12 Vantage and the new Lambo everything else seems to be abit of a joke especially giving front wheel drive cars along with new tyre wear. I know i'm gonna get flamed by GT fan loyalist's but this is the truth, the DLC is not satisfactory in my opinion. Not only should they be given us 10 cars everytime there is DLC but also not a car like the new Nissan Leaf, come on now seriously Nissan probably paid PD to have it in the game then PD turn's to us for more money. And if that is the case that shows greed not a company that listen's to fan's. Yes i'm angered towards PD because they love to accept more money but give us what we really want then that money is justified and I would spend it with a smile on my face. I bought all DLC only for a couple of cars every DLC and not a happy customer that's why I have been looking at the alternative game being FM4 and guess what they do listen to fan's just check their website.

I would really like to see some old tracks from previous GT's and some serious cars in the future DLC's along with more real tracks.

 

[abaxas]

^^^^

GT is one man's dream when FM is a copy of GT3 with extras.

Totally different developer mindsets.

 

[Spagetti69]

Still only a dream.

 

[abaxas]

Still only a dream.

Agreed, he keeps changing his mind.

 

[Spagetti69]

Agreed, he keeps changing his mind.

I can't argue with that lol.

 

[thedeester1]

If the argument is based on physics alone Ill have to go for GT5. If the argument is which game is better Ill have to say Forza 4.

As has been said Forza fans get stuff they want. The top gear test track standing start and the Kia Cee'd a typical example. Virtually everyone asked for this in GT5 before it was released. There were hundreds of mentions in the wishlist threads. Did we get it? Did we hell!

Then theres the Hundreds of mentions about anologue clutch settings. I dont know if these are in Forza because My Xbox wheel doesnt have a clutch. Its just another example of something that fans have been asking for ever since the release of wheels with clutches and we still didnt get it.

Then there is the fact that arguably 2 of the most popular driving wheels (G25 and G27) are not properly supported in GT5, where as they jump at the chance to support a new wheel (a very expensive one at that) because its GT branded. Not so much listening to fans as trying to get fans to spend more money IMHO.

Then there is the Wheel rotation degree setting that so many asked (and still ask) for. Nope didnt get that either as far as Im aware (G25 user).

As has been mentioned before. Who requested the Nissan Leaf in the game? I dont see hundreds of Threads / Posts about that, do you? Yet a DLC pack is released and you have to actually pay for a car that could probably be used to loose the Sunday cup in and thats it.

I love GT but have to stress again that Forza is the better game. If Forza had physics anything like GT or better still iRacing Id sell My PS3.

 

[thelvynau]

If the argument is based on physics alone Ill have to go for GT5. If the argument is which game is better Ill have to say Forza 4.

As has been said Forza fans get stuff they want. The top gear test track standing start and the Kia Cee'd a typical example. Virtually everyone asked for this in GT5 before it was released. There were hundreds of mentions in the wishlist threads. Did we get it? Did we hell!

Then theres the Hundreds of mentions about anologue clutch settings. I dont know if these are in Forza because My Xbox wheel doesnt have a clutch. Its just another example of something that fans have been asking for ever since the release of wheels with clutches and we still didnt get it.

Then there is the fact that arguably 2 of the most popular driving wheels (G25 and G27) are not properly supported in GT5, where as they jump at the chance to support a new wheel (a very expensive one at that) because its GT branded. Not so much listening to fans as trying to get fans to spend more money IMHO.

Then there is the Wheel rotation degree setting that so many asked (and still ask) for. Nope didnt get that either as far as Im aware (G25 user).

As has been mentioned before. Who requested the Nissan Leaf in the game? I dont see hundreds of Threads / Posts about that, do you? Yet a DLC pack is released and you have to actually pay for a car that could probably be used to loose the Sunday cup in and thats it.

I love GT but have to stress again that Forza is the better game. If Forza had physics anything like GT or better still iRacing Id sell My PS3.

What facts do you have to say gt5 has better physics?

 

[skazz]

What facts do you have to say gt5 has better physics?

For me Forza 4 physics seem overly tail happy. All those road cars in stock setup being oversteery isn't something I can really believe: all real road cars are setup with slight understeer for safety purposes. Likewise the amounts of oversteer and wheelspin you get on cold racing tyres just seems too much. Then we have stodgy FWD cars which are also very oversteery, and AWD sports cars lacking the characteristic understeer. It's as if the Forza team deliberately went for heroic drift-tastic mode to spice up the experience, slightly losing realism in the process.

Secondly Forza has chosen to simulate track surface bumps (you can see them in replays and when using the suspension telemetry), but none of those bumps are felt through the FFB. that's so frustrating compared to PC sims and also to GT5.

For me these two aspects are where GT5 outdoes Forza 4 in terms of physics. It doesn't stop me from regularly playing and enjoying both of them with my Fanatec wheel, of course!

 

[Scaff]

If the argument is based on physics alone Ill have to go for GT5.

....snip.....

If Forza had physics anything like GT or better still iRacing Id sell My PS3.

Care to expand on that, because I personally think that in terms of tyre modelling, grip progression and suspension modelling that FM4 is clearly better than GT5.

For me Forza 4 physics seem overly tail happy. All those road cars in stock setup being oversteery isn't something I can really believe: all real road cars are setup with slight understeer for safety purposes. Likewise the amounts of oversteer and wheelspin you get on cold racing tyres just seems too much. Then we have stodgy FWD cars which are also very oversteery, and AWD sports cars lacking the characteristic understeer. It's as if the Forza team deliberately went for heroic drift-tastic mode to spice up the experience, slightly losing realism in the process.

Could you provide some specific examples, because we have had this 'Forza makes all cars too oversteery' point raised before, yet specific example seem thin on the ground and when tested don't match the claims made.

RWD road cars in Forza do (for the most part) initially understeer out of a corner before transitioning to oversteer, its not 100% correct for every car but its certainly present. For me its actually far better done that in GT5 which has almost no grip transition (due to the very basic tyre model) so you jump from grip to either under or oversteer.

FWD cars certainly do understeer and while some will allow lift off oversteer its not to the degree it should be (certainly in all the cars I've driven on a track that are in FM4 or GT5). However its still a country mile ahead of GT5 in this regard, which makes lift-off oversteer almost impossible to initiate in FWD cars, even those that should allow it and indeed have it as a defining suspension trait.

As you can almost certainly guess I also don't agree with you point on AWD cars as well.

GT5 is hamstrung in terms of physics by a very basic tyre model and a quite suspect suspension model. As a result you get almost no progression of grip, which makes high torque cars a nightmare to drive; zero torque steer making full throttle launches singularly unrealistic and a tyre model that allows wildly differing cars to have the same lat-g on the same tyre compound (Corvettes and MINI Cooper with the same lat-g on the same tyre!!).


The Shelby Cobra is a car that demonstrates a number of these issues very well, with full throttle launches in GT5 just spinning up the rears and no hint of the rear wanting to step out, final hook up of the tyres then occurring in a very strange manner. Then we have just driving the car, in GT5 it offers almost no progression of grip at all, jumping from grip to oversteer with almost no warning at all. I've passenger'd in a Cobra on both road and track and can assure you that doesn't happen at all. Yes one will bite hard, particularly in the wet, if you abuse the throttle. However the grip will bleed off in quite a progressive manner (nice high sidewalls help to ensure that), within that limit it can be played with, its once you step over it that its almost impossible to recover. Simply put GT5 makes this car (and a number like it) ridiculously and unrealistically hard to drive.

Secondly Forza has chosen to simulate track surface bumps (you can see them in replays and when using the suspension telemetry), but none of those bumps are felt through the FFB. that's so frustrating compared to PC sims and also to GT5.

For me these two aspects are where GT5 outdoes Forza 4 in terms of physics. It doesn't stop me from regularly playing and enjoying both of them with my Fanatec wheel, of course!

None of them?

I use a pad and (when I can be bothered) an old MS wheel and can certainly feel the track surface with both; however I am more than happy to agree that GT5 provides more track feedback.

However the problem here is that neither is right, for that to happen it would have to vary significantly between cars.

Drive an RS4 on track and then drive an M3 on track (real world here) and the former will give you almost no feel from the track at all, while the latter with provide a rather large amount of info. Not Lotus Elise level, but much more than the Audi will.

Does this make a real RS4 unrealistic? Of course not. Audi simply have a differing approach to road feedback from the steering, minimising it to such a degree that personally I don't like it (and hence the reason why I have never owned an Audi - lovely cars I simply don't like the feel).


Scaff

 

[skazz]

Scaff, have you ever tried iRacing or rFactor with realfeel on laser scanned tracks? Both of them let you feel every undulation and bump, with the amount of effect dependent on the suspension and tyres of the car in question. GT5 certainly isn't at that level, but the basics are there: The more firm the suspension, the more you feel bumps and undulations on the tracks which have them. Particularly the Nordschleife, but also numerous other tracks in GT5 have plenty of surface detail. However there are also GT5 tracks which feel as smooth as a billiard table.

Forza 4 definitely simulates bumps and undulations - you just need to look at the telemetry to see the shock absorbers working. But you simply don't feel a thing through the FFB, irrespective of the type of car used. The only place where I feel anything atall through the wheel is the red painted raster on the road just before the end of the lap around Bernese Alps. And that comes through on the wheel-rim rumble motors, not the FFB motor (unlike rumble strips which you can feel through the FFB).

You are over-reaching in your answers about various types of real cars here: Obviously the amount of feel through the FFB when going over bumps is totally dependent on the type of car and suspension. But when you stick a firm race suspension on any car it most certainly shouldn't glide effortlessly over bumps without feeling a thing.

 

[Scaff]

Scaff, have you ever tried iRacing or rFactor with realfeel on laser scanned tracks? Both of them let you feel every undulation and bump, with the amount of effect dependent on the suspension and tyres of the car in question. GT5 certainly isn't at that level, but the basics are there: The more firm the suspension, the more you feel bumps and undulations on the tracks which have them. Particularly the Nordschleife, but also numerous other tracks in GT5 have plenty of surface detail. However there are also GT5 tracks which feel as smooth as a billiard table.

Forza 4 definitely simulates bumps and undulations - you just need to look at the telemetry to see the shock absorbers working. But you simply don't feel a thing through the FFB, irrespective of the type of car used. The only place where I feel anything atall through the wheel is the red painted raster on the road just before the end of the lap around Bernese Alps. And that comes through on the wheel-rim rumble motors, not the FFB motor (unlike rumble strips which you can feel through the FFB).

You are over-reaching in your answers about various types of real cars here: Obviously the amount of feel through the FFB when going over bumps is totally dependent on the type of car and suspension. But when you stick a firm race suspension on any car it most certainly shouldn't glide effortlessly over bumps without feeling a thing.

I don't disagree that GT5 does this better at all (nor that rFactor, etc are better still) but I would personally disagree to the level of difference you assigning GT5 and FM4.


Scaff

 

[Sander 001]

What facts do you have to say gt5 has better physics?

The fact that I've got eyes.

 

[thechosenwonton]

The fact that I've got eyes.

Wouldn't it be hands that makes that call?

 

[thelvynau]

The fact that I've got eyes.

So you see the physics rather than feel them?

 

[Scaff]

The fact that I've got eyes.

What a well thought out and reasoned discussion point

Seriously is that the best you can come up with?


Scaff

 

[MrMVP]

GT5 physics but Forza 4 tuning.

 

[Tvensky]

What a well thought out and reasoned discussion point

Seriously is that the best you can come up with?


Scaff

I think that's fair enough..

you do wach motor sport events with eyes not hands or other body parts! 👍

 

[Scaff]

I think that's fair enough..

you do wach motor sport events with eyes not hands or other body parts! 👍

We are talking about the physics engines of both titles and how they compare against each other and reality, now I'm not sure about yourself but every car I've driven on the road and track has certainly required me to use a lot more that just my eyes.


Scaff

 

[Tvensky]

We are talking about the physics engines of both titles and how they compare against each other and reality, now I'm not sure about yourself but every car I've driven on the road and track has certainly required me to use a lot more that just my eyes.


Scaff

I know what your talking about and I agree, but still, anyone with any driving experience and understanding about real cars physics, should be able to tell only with eyes, does it move natural or bit unreal.

obviously there is something wrong with the car here in Grid and I see that!



and here in FM



and in GT5, I know its just a crash glitch, but still part of the physics!



but you have to notice that FM part isnt crashing. He is driving and then something stupid occurs.

 

[aronh17]

On the topic of Forza simulating bumps, have you seen the Nurburg on that game? You cannot possibly simulate correct bumps when the track looks like you are driving through the hills of Kentucky and the carousel looks as if a NASCAR bend made of plywood. Honestly I believe GT5 should feel more realistic. Kazunori is a professional racecar driver. While making these games he drives with the wheel. Turn 10 is a team of car photographers that took their passion of cars and turned it into a simulation racing game. At least by my knowledge. Either way I believe Forza is more about having fun and not about hardcore simulation. Forza 1 used to be, but then they branched off and now they just want to please every kind of driver. Both games have a great deal of physics as we can see, but in the end if you have both you truly win.