Forza 6 vs Other Games - Physics Discussion Thread

[Ialyrn]

I bought on non ffb 458 spider wheel just to see if I fancied the whole wheel thing again. I was very much into it on PS2 and 3

I didn't want to lash out a big lump of money on a wheel if I wasn't going to use it a lot. Turns out to be a wise move because I've found that I prefer to kick back with the controller nowadays

I use the wheel occasionally and it's ok for a while but I find myself wanting to go back to the pad after 20 minutes or so

Have you used a wheel with FFB before? I have used non FFB wheels in the past, and I hated them. My thoughts on buying a wheel without FFB stems from that experience.

 

[RacerPaul]

Have you used a wheel with FFB before? I have used non FFB wheels in the past, and I hated them. My thoughts on buying a wheel without FFB stems from that experience.

Yes, I had a Driving Force EX back in the day. Ffb is great fun, I don't dispute that. It was just the whole locked in, hands on wheel/feet on pedals thing that I tired of

 

[Speedster911]

Yes, I had a Driving Force EX back in the day. Ffb is great fun, I don't dispute that. It was just the whole locked in, hands on wheel/feet on pedals thing that I tired of

I know right? Nothing beats sprawling on the bed or relaxing on the sofa while you shoot for a casual session (spanning over a few hours at least).

Hey don't you feel the X360's controller was ergonomically friendlier?

 

[RacerPaul]

Hey don't you feel the X360's controller was ergonomically friendlier?

I did find that the X1 controller didn't feel quite so comfy at first, and I have had to slightly change the way I hold it

Its fine now though, very used to it 👍

 

[Speedster911]

I did find that the X1 controller didn't feel quite so comfy at first, and I have had to slightly change the way I hold it

Its fine now though, very used to it 👍

Yeah, I find myself doing the same - holding it differently. Still prefer the feel of the X360 pad though the X1's rumble is hard to beat. 👍

Speaking of.. have you noticed how the vibration and particularly rumble has been dramatically improved in FM6 since the controller update? Feels like F5, absolutely loving it.

 

[RacerPaul]

@Speedster911

I couldn't say I've noticed a big difference since the update but the rumble feedback in FM6 is indeed epic

 

[Speedster911]

@Speedster911

I couldn't say I've noticed a big difference since the update but the rumble feedback in FM6 is indeed epic

Yeah, it got epic after the update I'm tellin' ya!

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I've moved this straight to the physics discussion thread to avoid taking the other further off-topic:

There are multiple points so i cant tell it one by one.

If there are multiple ways in which Forza doesn't seem realistic to you, it should be even easier to list them. Not harder.

Sure.

Overall, it feels like the tires have too much grip. I'm privileged enough to have a Mazda 787B in both GT6 and FM6, and in FM6, it feels like the car is too bolted down to be realistic. It's not as tail-happy as I'd imagine such a relatively low-downforce, high-power car to be.

You're basing this off your imagination?

While prototypes back then definitely don't have the downforce of modern LMP's, there's still significant downforce at speed. I can't record on the PS3, but I did just drive both games completely back-to-back, with the 787B at La Sarthe.

In GT6, the first two gears will see wheelspin in a straight line. Turning on the power guarantees a spin.
In FM6, the first two gears will see wheelspin in a straight line. Turning on the power guarantees a spin.
In GT6, turning while on the throttle in third gear will lead to oversteer via wheelspin. If not kept in check, it will spin.
In FM6, turning while on the throttle in third gear will lead to oversteer via wheelspin. If not kept in check, it will spin.

FM6 does seem to require slightly more effort to unstick the car at the top of the tacho in third, but that could be up to a variety of variables. You're moving at well over 100mph at that point, so I'd need to look at the downforce settings for both games, for one.

To be honest, the 787B is a bad example because of how rare it is. There's Herbert's lap around La Sarthe in 2011 – where he largely drives how I would expect, braking straight and keeping a constant throttle opening around turns – but getting some serious information on how the real life car behaves is difficult.

If I mat the accelerator coming out of a medium-radius turn, I'd expect the thing to go around in a circle, especially since it's mid-engined and therefore should tend to pivot rather quickly with sudden weight shifts.

Basic physics dictate that the weight shift in an MR car during acceleration will cause more understeer, not less (or oversteer). What can cause the spinning and sliding is exceeding the tire grip while simultaneously turning and applying power, yes, but to pin it on just weight shift isn't true.

Lift-off oversteer highlights this (and is another area GT doesn't simulate well, though Forza isn't perfect with it either).

I can vouch for this as I happen to own a ZZW30 MR2 in real life. Mid-engined cars tend to be temperamental if you don't manage your weight balance well throughout the turn.

My first car was an Integra. I'd never pretend to vouch for how the blisteringly quick front-drive Audi TT's that blitzed the Nurburgring races felt based on driving my car.

Really? Because I can recall quite a few instances I've had that say quite the opposite.

Go to Route X and launch a car (with a controller, to eliminate any possible steering input). It will track arrow-straight every time. The entire drag racing section for GT6 is founded on this, really.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

You're basing this off your imagination?

Yes, that and real-life experience with MR cars (not prototypes or supercars, obvs).

While prototypes back then definitely don't have the downforce of modern LMP's, there's still significant downforce at speed. I can't record on the PS3, but I did just drive both games completely back-to-back, with the 787B at La Sarthe.

Of course. This is why I said "relatively."

Basic physics dictate that the weight shift in an MR car during acceleration will cause more understeer, not less (or oversteer). What can cause the spinning and sliding is exceeding the tire grip while simultaneously turning and applying power, yes, but to pin it on just weight shift isn't true.

But with an MR car, the best way to take advantage of the added nimbleness is to throw it in a touch sideways, which means that you're usually close to limit-of-grip.

Perhaps I should have explained this earlier, but I was referring to accelerating out of a medium-speed turn (such as Turn 1 at Bernese Alps), not accelerating from a standstill like you seem to be assuming. So again, given that the best line through a turn in an MR car usually involves a touch of sliding, you'd still be close to LOG in this instance.

My first car was an Integra. I'd never pretend to vouch for how the blisteringly quick front-drive Audi TT's that blitzed the Nurburgring races felt based on driving my car.

But it did give you a decent idea of how FF cars work, yes? When you daily a car with a particular drivetrain, it tends to give you a pretty OK feel for how that particular drivetrain works.

In any case, I don't feel like having a long discussion about this. I dislike the GT sections, but I'm downright uncomfortable in the FM sections for some reason, even though I play the games - almost like I don't belong here.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yes, that and real-life experience with MR cars (not prototypes, obvs).

Imagination has no place when comparing a simulation to reality though. That is my point.

But with an MR car, the best way to take advantage of the added nimbleness is to throw it in a touch sideways, which means that you're usually close to limit-of-grip.

Being on the verge – or even very slightly over – your tires' grip limits is ideal for all drivetrains, not just MR. Rallying is a great example of this. No real disagreement there.

Perhaps I should have explained this earlier, but I was referring to accelerating out of a medium-speed turn (such as Turn 1 at Bernese Alps), not accelerating from a standstill like you seem to be assuming. So again, given that the best line through a turn in an MR car usually involves a touch of sliding, you'd still be close to LOG in this instance.

Perhaps you should've. Though I've already covered that. While I mentioned acceleration from a stand-still, I also very clearly mentioned what happens when lock is applied too.

That's the difference: I'm reporting my findings. You're going off feelings and imagination. It's fine to prefer one game over another, but preference =/= facts.

But it did give you a decent idea of how FF cars work, yes? When you daily a car with a particular drivetrain, it tends to give you a pretty OK feel for how that particular drivetrain works.

The only thing my old 'Teggie had in common with the race-bred TT's was the basic drivetrain layout. To assume driving a 140hp, all-season-rubbered, street-legal car is remotely the same as a car with magnitudes more (mechanical and aerodynamic) grip and power, and significantly less weight, is delusional at best.

In any case, I don't feel like having a long discussion about this. I dislike the GT sections, but I'm downright uncomfortable in the FM sections for some reason, even though I play the games - almost like I don't belong here.

You're as welcome here as any other part of the forum, and as you first ventured into the discussion, I'd have to ask why you'd bother if you didn't want to be here.

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

You're as welcome here as any other part of the forum, and as you first ventured into the discussion, I'd have to ask why you'd bother if you didn't want to be here.

Wait, this wasn't in the GT6 subforum first? Huh, guess I wasn't paying attention. I probably don't feel welcome here because I still remember the days when GT and FM fanboys were absolutely at each other's throats - that, and I really don't consider myself a hardcore FM player or fan.

Either way, I really don't want to continue this discussion. I'm out.

 

[McLaren]

You're as welcome here as any other part of the forum, and as you first ventured into the discussion, I'd have to ask why you'd bother if you didn't want to be here.

Because he made a claim, was challenged on it, & now doesn't want to verify it so he's going to leave whilst playing a "victim".

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Because he made a claim, was challenged on it, & now doesn't want to verify it so he's going to leave whilst playing a "victim".

That is patently false.