FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

dylansan

Many people including myself are very glad they included the standard cars, as they include most of the cars I really enjoy driving. They also really don't look that bad unless you get up close for a photo or try to use the cockpit view.

Honestly, the game would be much less appealing to me and many others if Standard cars were not included, even if it allowed them to put in a few more premiums. There's just no way they could have gotten the necessary variety with only premiums in the same time frame.

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I'm like you. I'm glad the standard cars are in GT5. They look so much better now. Plus the standard cars have rare cars that me and everyone loves.

That's why I hope for Kaz and PD's sake, there better not be any standard cars in GT6. In GT5 they're okay because there are cars in that list that I like. But better not mess up and get them premium (not the identicals by the way), and our dream cars and tracks ready for GT6, or else something bad will happen and they won't like it and be insulted for it.

MVR08

Curious frase there because you can use it to try and explain some of the decisions PD made, but maybe not all of them cause there are a lot of cuestionable decisions from them.

For example: Why the inclusion of standard cars, they look so bad, last gen, my eyes are bleeding!.. etc. Why PD!! WHy!!!? Because they are better than nothing?

Should there be a line where if you cross it then is better nothing then that?

Does that line exist? And where is it?

GT5?

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dylansan

Many people including myself are very glad they included the standard cars, as they include most of the cars I really enjoy driving. They also really don't look that bad unless you get up close for a photo or try to use the cockpit view.

Honestly, the game would be much less appealing to me and many others if Standard cars were not included, even if it allowed them to put in a few more premiums. There's just no way they could have gotten the necessary variety with only premiums in the same time frame.

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If both of you care to look at my posting history on the topic you will find that I don't actually have a major issue with standard cars. I do take issue when they are described as look good however, because they don't. PD have improved them but they certainly are not even remotely close to the norm for this generation.

What I do have an issue with in that regard is that PD used them to boost car count while missing out on a lot of more recent models, and the manner in which they introduced them (which was to avoid the issue as much as possible until the last moment.

The focus on standards to me is a moot point, because the cars can look as good as you like, that doesn't resolve the physics and tuning issues that GT5 has.



Scaff

Scaff

Could you please explain to me exactly how watching videos has given you an idea of how a car feels and the myriad of possible behaviour traits that exist in reality as a result of doing so?

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You can see from steering inputs and how the car is reacting is from them, the surroundings, the speed the driver is taking into corners and the racing line, the sound and if there is onboard footwork or telemetry, you can see where a driver is losing time compared to another if there is videos of other drivers on the same circuit (Something like F1 qualifying).

It is similar to watching replays of say the fastest times in a time trial. You can see immediately what someone is doing to go that fast so you know straight away what you need to do. It saves me a lot of time anyway.

This could be a test for you. Can you for example drive with no force feedback and no sound in cockpit view reasonably competitive in a time trial, say something like in top 250 or whatever is competitive for you? I know I can and that is due to knowing what the car is going to do before it happens relying on visual cues, the speed I know I need to take a corner and the steering input required. If you struggle then I think it will be hard for you to understand how watching videos can help if you can’t work on visual cues.

Scaff

I haven't dismissed the videos at all, what I have said is that they do not replace real world experience and I questioned why you place them above it.

I've also raised a concern about how they are used in a bias manner to try and prove a point. Let take a better look at the first MR2 video as it illustrates this very well.

Now you have said that a fully loaded rear (I presume you mean driven rear by this) hits grass it should cause a problem for the driver.



So why didn't this cause a loss of control..



...that's a loaded rear on the grass. I know it must be because its not on the grass enough. How about this one...



or this one (silver MR2 on the right in front)



or this (same silver car)



All of those drivers put a driven rear tyre, most under acceleration on grass, none of them lost control. The only crash in that video was the result of a control loss on track that ended up on the grass.

So no I don't dismiss the video 'evidence', but what I do actually do it watch it fully.

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Same reason why such situations in GT5 will not cause a loss of control in GT5, there is not enough lateral load on the rear tyres to cause such behaviour to happen, steering wheel is most likely straight. GT5 as I already mentioned is more forgiving than real life in that department. I did mean driven rear. The driver most likely backed off throttle as he realised he was going to go off track, being a MR2, it might have got a bit of lift-off oversteer which would have been easily catchable if it weren’t for the grass. The rear tyre laterally loaded on the grass was the thing that caused the loss of control. If driver just carried straight on to the grass, he wouldn’t have such a problem just like in GT5.

Have a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n321OygW-kg

You can see grass being used quite often without loss of control. Can you explain why the drivers in GT5 are not losing control when going on the grass?

Soon as F1 is back, I will use some ‘old’ examples and if you watched F1 practice and qualifying this weekend then you will know similar things happened again.

Look at this video at 1:44 onwards to see Barrichello lose control on the grass.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9436868.stm

Look also 1:29 onwards on this video.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/15212223

This is the first video that comes up when you type in ‘GT5 grass’ in YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYKngx3JsOg

There is a reason why drivers don’t take liberties with grass and that is because it is extremely unforgiving especially in performance situations if you don’t know you are going on to the grass. If you do know you are going on grass and have time to react, as Vettel has shown you can take the lateral load of the tyre before going off and not have such problems. Same as in GT5 but GT5 is much more simplified in off track behaviour which makes it more forgiving than real life in most situations. Hopefully they keep on the current track they are on regarding track edges and not dumbing it down (You could argue it is already dumbed down) but making it much more detailed. It should also help rally physics if they do improve this area.

Soon as I’m on the topic of F1 and off track behaviour, I recently did the Spa seasonal time trial and if you see my replay on there (If it is still up to view), you will be able to see me go off track (Silly error) without loss of control but loss of speed with the F2007. I don’t touch grass that much though so probably a poor example but from experience driving the car around the track and having gone on grass, you can go full throttle on grass without losing control. You can have high lateral load on rear and lose control. You can brake marginally on grass without losing control and you can brake heavily on grass and be facing the opposite direction of the race track. One thing to remember when going off track is to try and take as much lateral load of the tyre by straightening the steering wheel. Soon as this is a FM Vs GT thread, F1 cars is a thing that adds to the variety of experiences in GT5 that cannot be experienced in Forza 4.

Scaff

In mean modelled to act consistently as grass, not as some strange version of tarmac as it does in both titles, my apologies if that was not clear.

I also find it rather strange that you keep posting as if I don't have GT5 or don't play it, as I most certainly do and am more than aware of how it reacts in terms of grass.

You can watch all the videos you want, they will not let you know how a car feels and reacts when you transfer from track to grass. I do know how that feels, I know how it varies and GT5 doesn't get it right. I find the very fact that you agree that you can actually gain speed on GT5's grass and yet then say they do a reasonable job of grass quite amazing.

Oh and yes I am more than aware of the corner cutting penalties in GT5, the ones that will give you a penalty if someone else forces you off track, making them about as fair as Forza's sticky grass in that regard.


Scaff

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OK then.

You probably play GT5 more than me for all I know (I just try and do the seasonal events when I can). However playing on a game does not automatically mean you know what is happening in the games driving model. It usually takes me about a good 10-20 minutes now to have a very good understanding of what is going on in any racing game unless it is got some bugs which change things. I remember when I first got Forza 3, I was a bit shocked not many people said about the active steering being permanently on which I found out due to being surprised about not losing control of cars after driving deliberately very poorly around a circuit. Even video evidence was not enough proof for some to acknowledge it at the time.

Your understanding of how cars react to grass in GT5 appears to be lacking. Same goes from before about how you say comfort tyres are not that progressive. I have done very limited testing on white lines so not 100% on this but it appears also they do not affect you in the wet. I suggest you go and play GT5 and understand what really is going on before making comments that is always going to be difficult to prove especially if there is lacking evidence on the whole of the internet showing the behaviour you describe.

Surely though you must find it strange that real world videos or GT5 videos do not back up your claim. It does show GT5 is a bit forgiving as far as track edge goes for the most part and the rest of grass behaviour is extremely forgiving. I don’t know about gaining speed on the grass but you can use the grass as good as tarmac through the corners. Read what I said in that post. I did say rear loaded tyre on the edge of grass is what is simulated reasonably. I should have added the word lateral in that too so my mistake and should have also mentioned about braking on grass being reasonably simulated.


Finally I’m interested in why you think that Cobra video launch behaviour you posted is what Forza 4 has over GT5 in physics department that makes it much better. Considering FM2 and FM3 will do the same thing I presume and most likely something like a Pagani C12 will also result in the same outcome, why do you rate GT5 physics above the older Forza games? Otherwise I could go on Forza 2 make a video of the Cobra doing the same thing and say the following like yourself, "Try this in GT5 and then when you can't, come back and tell me how GT5 still has the better physics engine."

saidur_ali

Finally I’m interested in why you think that Cobra video launch behaviour you posted is what Forza 4 has over GT5 in physics department that makes it much better. Considering FM2 and FM3 will do the same thing I presume and most likely something like a Pagani C12 will also result in the same outcome, why do you rate GT5 physics above the older Forza games? Otherwise I could go on Forza 2 make a video of the Cobra doing the same thing and say the following like yourself, "Try this in GT5 and then when you can't, come back and tell me how GT5 still has the better physics engine."

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The reason why he keeps talking about that is because of the way the car handles. In GT5 you can go from a standstill without using the wheel/analog and keep going straight at full throttle as in Forza you have to control the car in order to keep it straight at a launch. Torque is a big deal in terms of a launch.

For Scaff. I'm surprised someone took the time to dislike all of your videos.

phillkillv2

The reason why he keeps talking about that is because of the way the car handles. In GT5 you can go from a standstill without using the wheel/analog and keep going straight at full throttle as in Forza you have to control the car in order to keep it straight at a launch. Torque is a big deal in terms of a launch.

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Well Ive been playing Need for Speed most wanted (PS2 convertion to PS3 now available on PSN for 10 euros in europe) and if I give full throttle from a standing still the car does exactly the same thing and I have to counter steer to go straight... and the physics... well... for a full blown arcade racer are ok I guess...

saidur_ali

Considering FM2 and FM3 will do the same thing I presume and most likely something like a Pagani C12 will also result in the same outcome, why do you rate GT5 physics above the older Forza games? Otherwise I could go on Forza 2 make a video of the Cobra doing the same thing and say the following like yourself, "Try this in GT5 and then when you can't, come back and tell me how GT5 still has the better physics engine."

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Strawman.

I defy you to find the post Scaff made that says that Forza 4 has the better physics engine purely because it models launches correctly. Because as tribolik said, Need For Speed Most Wanted did that better than GT5 as well, and that certainly doesn't have the better physics engine.

Toronado

Strawman.

I defy you to find the post Scaff made that says that Forza 4 has the better physics engine purely because it models launches correctly. Because as tribolik said, Need For Speed Most Wanted did that better than GT5 as well, and that certainly doesn't have the better physics engine.

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If you look on this same page, you will see Scaff quoting his post: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6830563#post6830563

You will see the resemblance when you read it.

saidur_ali

You can see from steering inputs and how the car is reacting is from them, the surroundings, the speed the driver is taking into corners and the racing line, the sound and if there is onboard footwork or telemetry, you can see where a driver is losing time compared to another if there is videos of other drivers on the same circuit (Something like F1 qualifying).

It is similar to watching replays of say the fastest times in a time trial. You can see immediately what someone is doing to go that fast so you know straight away what you need to do. It saves me a lot of time anyway.

This could be a test for you. Can you for example drive with no force feedback and no sound in cockpit view reasonably competitive in a time trial, say something like in top 250 or whatever is competitive for you? I know I can and that is due to knowing what the car is going to do before it happens relying on visual cues, the speed I know I need to take a corner and the steering input required. If you struggle then I think it will be hard for you to understand how watching videos can help if you can’t work on visual cues.

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Only one slight issue with the above, and that's is I said you can't tell FEEL from a video, guess you missed that.

saidur_ali

Same reason why such situations in GT5 will not cause a loss of control in GT5, there is not enough lateral load on the rear tyres to cause such behaviour to happen, steering wheel is most likely straight. GT5 as I already mentioned is more forgiving than real life in that department. I did mean driven rear. The driver most likely backed off throttle as he realised he was going to go off track, being a MR2, it might have got a bit of lift-off oversteer which would have been easily catchable if it weren’t for the grass. The rear tyre laterally loaded on the grass was the thing that caused the loss of control. If driver just carried straight on to the grass, he wouldn’t have such a problem just like in GT5.

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I've cut out a lot of the above simply because I have never claimed that going on the grass would result in a instant loss of control, that's something you have repeatedly stated.

My point has always been that grass is much more complex than that and that GT5 still doesn't get it right (and neither does FM4), you want to think GT5 does a good job then feel free (a point I have repeatedly said).

However GT5 has grass that is too slippy and causes almost no loss of speed, that I don't consider to be good enough.

saidur_ali

Finally I’m interested in why you think that Cobra video launch behaviour you posted is what Forza 4 has over GT5 in physics department that makes it much better. Considering FM2 and FM3 will do the same thing I presume and most likely something like a Pagani C12 will also result in the same outcome, why do you rate GT5 physics above the older Forza games? Otherwise I could go on Forza 2 make a video of the Cobra doing the same thing and say the following like yourself, "Try this in GT5 and then when you can't, come back and tell me how GT5 still has the better physics engine."

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saidur_ali

If you look on this same page, you will see Scaff quoting his post: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6830563#post6830563

You will see the resemblance when you read it.

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I have never come close to saying that the launch is the only factor required to show that FM4 has a stronger physics model that GT5, hell even following that link leads to two videos discussing differing parts of the physics engine, follow it even further back and yet more areas are discussed.

What annoys me even more is that you were involved in that discussion so you know full well that I have not used a single point in this discussion.

Don't imply this again, as you know its not even close to true, I've covered tuning issues, tyre deformation, steering angle, launch, grip progression, GT5's lat-g increase factors and much more in this thread alone.

What I have said is that its a quite an easy test to carry out that does illustrate the issues GT5 has in this area, and as such is quite independent of any other title (and that is not a claim that its all that's needed). That is unless you are under the impression that how GT5 handles launches is just fine.


Scaff

GT5 suffers from the hidden launch assist IMO but the grass is just fine IMO

I have been FM4 heavy very good game. I still think GT5 is better but FM4 is the best out of the series. I hope they do FM5 on the new Xbox because the graphics have to get better in my opinion. I love driving in FM4 but watching replays and the track surrounds look bad to me it has to do with the lighting i think. The tire model Is damn good, but the physics seem a little weird to me but overall very good game. If you are not playing FM4 with a wheel you are not getting the full experience. The controller makes playing this game feel like its way to easy. This is not the case.

Edit: Also the ABS system is way better in FM4 than GT5. You have to run with ABS 0 to get a great braking experience In GT5. Once at 0 braking in GT5 is amazing I just wish ABS would work like no abs minus the wheel lock.

I'm not even sure it's specifically the lighting that FM4 stumbles (relatively), but whatever T10 is using to render the properties of different materials. I love having access to the entire colour palette for cars, but GT's paint finishes are more accurate and impressive. That said, a lot of the FM4 tracks have far more interesting scenery than GT5, but I still feel T10's bumped the contrast too much.

Then again, unless you're exclusively driving Premiums on any of the PS3-created tracks in GT5, you're putting up with far more ugliness than your average FM4 drive. It's a broken-record retort for a reason.

As for assists, I'm still a bit annoyed that PD saddles us with a permanent TCS aid for reverse gear and when driving off-track. Sure, in an ideal race I won't ever notice those things, but it's a strange choice to make nonetheless.

SlipZtrEm

I'm not even sure it's specifically the lighting that FM4 stumbles (relatively), but whatever T10 is using to render the properties of different materials. I love having access to the entire colour palette for cars, but GT's paint finishes are more accurate and impressive. That said, a lot of the FM4 tracks have far more interesting scenery than GT5, but I still feel T10's bumped the contrast too much.

Then again, unless you're exclusively driving Premiums on any of the PS3-created tracks in GT5, you're putting up with far more ugliness than your average FM4 drive. It's a broken-record retort for a reason.

As for assists, I'm still a bit annoyed that PD saddles us with a permanent TCS aid for reverse gear and when driving off-track. Sure, in an ideal race I won't ever notice those things, but it's a strange choice to make nonetheless.

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I don't know Slip I love the fact FM4 has a cockpit for every car, but still the cockpit look weird to me, as if everything is plastic. I was driving the 300ZX and I think the wheel was green? Driving, and looking at the scenery looks weird to me everything looks to colorful. The screen before the race starts is when FM4 looks amazing! I love the track days and auto X days! I even tried the head tracking and it was pretty damn sweet! I still like playing GT5 more, but FM4 is fun as hell. I need some rivals ghost from you guys.

Better shaders would transform Forza. It's one of the areas in which Gran Turismo is visibly more accomplished.

tribolik

GT5 suffers from the hidden launch assist IMO but the grass is just fine IMO

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GT5 does not have torque steering modeled, therefore you can launch it full throttle and the car won't go all over the place. Not an assist but rather a flaw.


Didn't know about the existence of this thread, but just by reading a couple of pages there's something that must be said about driving assists and comparing which is more true to real life: both games have to be tried using a ffb wheel or it's a worthless discussion. It's pretty easy to see more than 50% of posters haven't.
Both have lots of hidden assists going on when using regular controllers, but those and their differences are a developers decision and not a part of the game's physics. Simply put, without a wheel you aren't playing the game.

and secondly, no experienced daily driver, racing or sim racing fan will say forza4 and/or GT5 are sims. Just try lfs (f2p demo) and you'll be blown away, and that's just the beginning.
To me it goes like this: sim (iracing, netkar, etc), simcade (forza4 and gt5), arcade (ridge racer). Most people know the huge differences between a simcade and an arcade game, but it's the same when comparing a proper sim and a simcade.
That's why that discussion is pointless. None of both titles is actively trying to simulate real life physics as it would make the game not suitable for console owners for various reasons. What both want is to make them accessible but at the same time "sim-ish", therefore what matters is which game is both more fun to drive while not making it too unrealistic.

and finally, it's pretty safe to say forza4 is more fun to play than gt5 and that overall it is a more robust game. In GT5's defense there's the fact the game was rushed and that it was released a year after.

I'll wait for their next batch to make a decision, and probably buy a xbox720 or ps4 based on which is simply better overall and without excuses (I learned in this console generation that having all of them is not worth it). Probably Turn10 is developing forza5 faster considering their DLC and the massive improvements they did in 2 years (from f3 to f4), and we know PD didn't release an awful lot of content for GT5, so we'll see.

avens

and finally, it's pretty safe to say forza4 is more fun to play than gt5 and that overall it is a more robust game. In GT5's defense there's the fact the game was rushed and that it was released a year after.

I'll wait for their next batch to make a decision, and probably buy a xbox720 or ps4 based on which is simply better overall and without excuses (I learned in this console generation that having all of them is not worth it). Probably Turn10 is developing forza5 faster considering their DLC and the massive improvements they did in 2 years (from f3 to f4), and we know PD didn't release an awful lot of content for GT5, so we'll see.

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What ever it is it renders drag racing (not that Im a fan) in GT5 useless IMO. To get a good start in every race you just have to push the throtle all the way every time wich is pretty unrealistic IMO

unrealistic

and it is. Just saying it isn't a hidden assist.

avens

unrealistic
and it is. Just saying it isn't a hidden assist.

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Thanks for the heads up.

Mind you Im not biased towards Forza because I cant be... I dont have an Xbox unfortunatly... Im just stating the obvious.

JDMKING13

I don't know Slip I love the fact FM4 has a cockpit for every car, but still the cockpit look weird to me, as if everything is plastic.

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That's what I mean, some of the texture work could stand to be improved.

That said, even the worst FM4 cockpit is better than over 800 of GT5's

I was driving the 300ZX and I think the wheel was green?

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Yeah, they do seem to have a more noticeable problem with colour separation/banding than GT5, though both titles have it. I'm assuming that won't be entirely killed off until the next generation, at least without sacrificing other things.

Driving, and looking at the scenery looks weird to me everything looks to colorful.

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Yep, I've found knocking the TV's contrast down a bit has done wonders 👍

The screen before the race starts is when FM4 looks amazing! I love the track days and auto X days!

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I've ended up fairly high up in the Autocross leaderboards, oddly enough, and I'll admit, those different modes could definitely help GT5, just for some different disciplines. Then again, current Seasonals are almost like track days - you're just meant to pass a certain amount of cars in a given race length, all of which are massively slower than you. The "chase the rabbit" layout is becoming a bit of a bore.

I even tried the head tracking and it was pretty damn sweet! I still like playing GT5 more, but FM4 is fun as hell. I need some rivals ghost from you guys.

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You know where to find us

Forza's level 150 cap has been bumped to. . . 999. Anyone up for getting to that, and getting to max affinity level for every make?

Forza is fun to modify cars and have the TV turned up all the way and GT games are for actually racing and being accurate with handling and stuff like that.

Crisp

Forza is fun to modify cars and have the TV turned up all the way and GT games are for actually racing and being accurate with handling and stuff like that.

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You drift, correct? Do real life drifters buy the cheapest, crappiest tires to fit to their machines? Do they only buy tires that match the stock measurements of the OE tires the car came equipped with? Do they have to concern themselves with tire temperatures and pressure, both of which are inextricably linked to each other?

Ah, realism.

Terronium-12

Again with that?

Jesus Christ.

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Welcome to the team

Crisp

Forza is fun to modify cars and have the TV turned up all the way and GT games are for actually racing and being accurate with handling and stuff like that.

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So you play GT with your TV on mute?

Crisp

Forza is fun to modify cars and have the TV turned up all the way and GT games are for actually racing and being accurate with handling and stuff like that.

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Whats more accurate in GT5? I'd love to know.

Patrick

Whats more accurate in GT5? I'd love to know.

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FFB. FFB in forza is more informative on some aspects but not more realistic. Lightness e.g. in understeer situation in forza is like someone is shouting to your ear that car understeers. Informative but not more realistic. I think this problem is related to their XHID system and MS racing wheel which might require high contrast in FFB inputs for user to notice anything. (I play with Fanatec) Also steering is not linear in forza even after latest patch. There is almost like a dead zone in the middle where steering speed decreases. This makes it impossible to use 900 mode.It still seems like it was designed for 270 degree MS wheel. This together with FFB makes it feel like tires are not connected to road. Also I have not decided yet which is better from two simulation modes in F4.

FFB in GT5 however got worse in 2.04 patch. Feel of hard curbs is better now in forza than GT5. In comparison, it is now not impossible for me to try F4 time to time. However that is only because FFB in GT5 has gotten worse. Also I am waiting for list of Porsches for the upcoming DLC

Terronium-12

Jesus Christ.

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Yes, how can I help you :-)

Ontopic: I have changed my stance for Forza 4, it still has some missing things, like 1:1 steering linearity, but tyre simulation is much better then GT5

Spagetti69

So you play GT with your TV on mute?

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Aww, that's a cheap shot at GT5's sound! (I'll go back to lurking now)