FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)
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Lukeydopeyus
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I would like to give some infos here regarding DS3 face and shoulder pressure sensitive buttons. Playing GT5 without ABS is very difficult using DS3 controller, but it is not the case when using an original PS2 DS2 controller coupled with an USB adaptor for PS3. They are very cheap, I have a chinese made brand Panther Lord
, sounds like a bad name, but it does the job very well, have been using it for 2 years with no problems.From the 1st time I played GT5, I never use ABS, and I don't mean to boast or anything, but since I used DS2 controller instead, brake pressure modulation and throttle modulation are easily attained. This was based on my experience - I obtained all 60 gold on license tests with this DS2 controller, it would be a lot harder using DS3 if not near impossible, especially that dreaded FT86 slalom test
. DS2 controller apparently have wider range in pressure sensor and smoother increments in pressure values. I have to press deeper and harder to fully brake and accelerate, the force needed to brake a third way in DS2 is the same with braking fully using DS3, the same goes with accel button - it's almost like having a go pedal on a thumb
. All my car brake balance are set to front=4 and rear=2, this provide me a good starting point to brake almost perfectly every time without ABS on most road cars, it works even on Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniv with comfort hard to soft tires, btw it's also my drift car. When I play Online, they were surprised I could brake as late as them with ABS in a Countach without locking the tires using a hand controller
Driving the car without ABS and TCS is so much fun in GT5, every braking or acceleration is a challenge, the only bad thing is without ABS, I felt handicapped against those with ABS, they can brake so hard and so late easily, almost unrealistic IMO. Feel free to use DS2 with ABS as well, it works so great, you can find the sweet spot before the ABS kicks in
Give them a try, DS2 with USB converter/adaptor, you won't be disappointed, some of my friends now are using them, coz for some of us wheels are not possible due to cost and space. Oh, here are some secret commands for most PS2 converter to PS3, they worked on mine :
Press Analog button once to activate DS2 controller when connected to PS3
Hold Analog button on DS2 for 2 seconds or more = PS button on DS3
Hold L1 + Select then press R3 = access XMB menu while in game, do it again to exit XMB.
Notes : Please be sure get a converter with a switch on it - for PC mode and PS3 mode, they have these secret commands I mentioned, some other brand without switch don't have them, which means you can't access XMB or quit game via PS button
Scaff
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soheibV12
No I put that video together to show the similarity between vehicle dynamics between the real car and FM4. It has nothing at all to do with rear wheel torque steer from a standing start. I've never said anything even close to that. That you believe over-steer in those circumstances is caused by torque steer is worrying in itself. Hell its not even a drift, its a bit of power and inertia created oversteer with a tad of a fishtail on correction, certainly not a drift.
Now find some footage of a real Interceptor and put it against yours and we can start talking.
Ohh don't worry - done it for you
Scaff
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Doesn't even look remotely similar.
Scaff
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While FM4 replays can look a little floaty (I don't agree that they feel that way at all but that's a discussion we have had before) I overall feel that the end result is a lot closer looking to how a car moves and behaves.
The Jensen above is a good example, the car may not be floating, but the car looks both like its skating across the surface and the body roll that we should see from this car (and can be clearly seen in the real footage) appears dumbed down and overly stiff.
Now both have issues, but for me FM4 has the fewer issues and, aside from looking a little floaty, a lot closer to how a car should behave.
Some of the sunny daytime tracks still suffer from this, but its not even close to how saturated it was in previous versions, that GT5 is capable of looking better than FM4 has never really been disputed. A premium car on a premium track is almost no contest in that regard, however the lighting engine can look as good as it wants it still jars for me when you get a close up of a standard car on a standard track.
Now aside from my personal belief that lap time comparisons are pretty much worthless, as you can find plenty of examples of stock cars in GT5 hammering real world laps times and also plenty of FM4 lap times that are close to real despite the track inaccuracies.
More than enough factors exist to throw discrepancies around lap times (tyres used, track temp, etc) on an average length track, let alone one the length of the 'ring.
However as you have nailed your flag to this post I have a question or two, you seem to use this video of evidence of how accurate GT5 is in terms of a near identical lap time, however that was uploaded prior to update 2.0 (which its pretty much agreed made changes to the physics).
Does that mean that post 2.0 GT5 is now more real than real?
How does this stack up with the difference in physics between on and off line?
Scaff
Scaff
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The length of the oversteer is not the point in discussion, its how closely the behaviour of the car in GT5 matches the real car.
I would however like to see the result of you recreating the real clip in GT5 and seeing how the two stack up against each other, please ensure that as well as power oversteer you also include a handbrake turn to a complete stop (as this is what the real clip shows).
Scaff
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Well feel is quite a bit different from virtual and real world. Only way for virtual world to get similar feeling is a really expensive racing rig with simulation software that makes good use of it.
Colin Mcrae also had a game series with Codemasters as you may well know which taught people basic concepts of rallying. About the part you said about him saying he is not fast in a sim, do you have any article on the internet about that or the year when he said that. I would say though something along the lines that 99% of drivers in GT and FM are not up to the standard of top motorsport drivers (The ones who are fast in sims) in the virtual world.
It would be good to know how good you are at GT5 and applying real world driving techniques in that game. Soon as you seem like to like the Cobra 427, maybe you could do a few laps on this combo: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=248347
This one is also good to test how well you can apply your knowledge of vehicle dynamics in the game: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=247008
Don’t mind if you don’t attempt it, just putting it out there.
Your real world point suits GT5 and FM4 (Based on videos) grass fine. GT5 grass is too grippy I would say and I might make a mockery video of GT5 grass if I can be bothered.
I have yet to play FM4 retail, hence why I’m talking mainly about GT5.
Torque steer is more a FWD attribute regarding affects of it through steering wheel column. Your example is a RWD based car and it is more to do with the affect of torque changing direction of the car and causing you to correct for torque on launch but if you keep wheel straight, the torque will not affect your steering input.
If you don’t correct for torque on launch, then it may result you to spin out like one of your Forza 4 video shows although the same can be done in Forza 2.
In simple terms, it is due to the torque being applied from the driveshaft to the rear axle and this causes some twisting motion. There is some weight transfer going on during launch which affects contact patch and load on tyres on launch. Tyre deformation also plays a part which all results on one rear wheel tyre getting betting traction than the other and thus resulting in a spin due to one wheel travelling faster than the other if not corrected for if I'm not mistaken.
You can get a similar result on launch in GT5 as Forza but for different things affecting the suspension and traction. If you launch straight from off-track with say the Cobra, you will spin out like in Forza when you go back on to the track.
I would say it is due to torque.
I am not making that assumption.
I am not that knowledgeable about previous GTs in regards to physics. Really only started playing racing games more than football games when I got a DFGT wheel for GT5P. I think I got first PS2 in Christmas 2004 and I used to play mainly Fifa and PES on that and my brother completed most of GT4 when we got it so missed out quite a bit of the game although I did revisit in 2009 I think. Reason being to gold every mission and license and get up to 100%). Didn't take long in the end, maybe a good few days. It was fun to try it out with a FFB wheel for the first time. The original GTs I have not really revisited. GT3 A Spec is probably the least I have played a GT game as I traded it for a football game after barely starting the game. It wasn't due to the game being bad but more due to it being a very good deal. Actually even GT5P I did not play the actual game part of it much as I sort of cheated by using a game save from online that is 100% so I could compete in time trials with the best cars. My bad.
Scaff
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Feel is most certainly different between the virtual world and the real world, however that doesn't mean that comparable links can't be made between them. Racing/Driving sims do what they can to simulate that feel, certainly in regard to steering. Other elements of feel come from the car itself and the physical forces acting upon it. For these sims use visual and audio information to a large degree.
Don't forget that the feel between real world cars can and does differ to a massive degree, a FWD car with an electric rack feels nothing at all like a RWD with no assistance, that even applies to some of the forces we feel through the 'seat of our pants' as the primary and secondary ride on a car can either highlight or filter out a huge amount of this information.
The only one that doesn't change in the real world from car to car are the longitudinal and latitudinal forces acting on the car and even full sim rigs are not able to correctly simulate these.
I've played every title in the CM Rally series and they are nothing like a sim at all, pretty much pure arcade with a sim look added. They are great fun, but most certainly not a sim in any way.
Now get hold of a copy of Richard Burns Rally (PS2, XBOX or PC) and give that a go, a proper rally school and a real sim.
In regard to CM's comment it was an interview for one of the titles in the series, I can't recall which exactly.
I'm not sure what this would achieve as I'm certainly not the fastest sim driver in the world at all, however I am more than happy to give one of them a go and describe what I feel about the car and its behaviour around a lap.
You should give it a go, you might be quite surprised.
Torque steer is torque steer, if a car changes direction based upon unequal torque distribution between the driven wheels then its torque steer. It doesn't matter if the driven wheels in question are at the front or the rear.
I've already covered the reasons why it occurs in a number of threads so am at a little bit of a loss as to why you feel the need to tell me.
Care to share a video?
It does however raise one important question, which is why it doesn't happen off the line.
And if its torque that is steering the car then what would we call it? Torque steer.
It certainly seemed to me that you were suggesting that this was occurring in FM because of tyre deformation alone, and as you have already confirmed above the main cause of this and the changes on suspension load is down to torque.
Hopefully the thread I linked to provides a bit more insight into the series and alone demonstrates that testing of sims is not a new area of interest to me.
I've played and continue to play a large number of sims on console (and in the past PC as well - however time pretty much precludes that now - I lost too much of it to PC sims in the past, in particular GPL).
Currently my order of regular play would look something like this:
FM4 > Race Pro > Enthusia > GT5 > F1 2010
Scaff
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- tribolik
Well considering that GT5 is enthusia 2 (the physics coder that made enthusia is now working for PD and was responsible for GT5 new physics model) I would say you have some sort of personal grudge against GT5
And IMO F1 CE has much better physics than the tweeked Grid physics that plage F1 2010 (cant say the same about F1 2011 though)
And IMO F1 CE has much better physics than the tweeked Grid physics that plage F1 2010 (cant say the same about F1 2011 though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImvDV0J6uYE&feature=youtu.be
conclusion. forza physics are fake but maybe better than need for speed, GT physics are real, the point of the game is ''the real driving simulator''it's the point of their work, you can say me anything, i can do . (sorry for my english)
conclusion. forza physics are fake but maybe better than need for speed, GT physics are real, the point of the game is ''the real driving simulator''it's the point of their work, you can say me anything, i can do . (sorry for my english)
Scaff
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And does GT5 drive anything like Ehthusia? No not at all.
First off what we actually know, a person with the same name worked on Physics for Enthusia and for GT5, we don't know for such if its the same person and we certainly don't know what direction they were given by the producers of the titles in question. That is unless you have some information that states they are the same person and that the core of the Enthusia physics model was used to help build the GT5 physics model.
I have no personal grudge against GT5 at all and even a quick review of my posting history over the years I have been here would very, very quickly show that were I to have a bias for any series it would be GT.
In my opinion F1 CE has better physics that both of them, doesn't stop F1 2010 being an entertaining simcade.
Given that video doesn't contain anything to do with FM4 you would do well to lay off the inflammatory comments, you've been given a large amount of room in regard to your lack of information and dubious claims. However keep this up and you will find the staff patience runs out.
The thread doesn't need flame-bait like this at all and you seem to have forgotten the requirements for posting here:
These are not optional.
Would you mind explaining why the real car quite clearly rocks from side to side when it comes to a stop after the handbrake turn and the GT 5 one doesn't?
Also please describe how you initiated the oversteer in GT5 (the first part of your video)?
Get the back of a RWD car to step out of line from a full throttle standing start. I've asked before and you've promised it, yet we are still waiting.
Scaff
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Actually I'm quite curious about one thing; Have you ever play Life for Speed? and if so, How would you rank the physics on that one?
I bring this up because I always felt like the physics on LFS seems to be more realistic than console racers (FM4/GT5 and at some Degree TOCA3), I'm not sure but I always felt like they did accomplished a decent physics model parting from the very basics back in 2006, needless to say it seems like their grip models and some other characteristics of it seem to realistically portrait the real thing(Tire wear and grip depending on temperature, its weight transfer model and some other characteristics like launches).
I've been playing a lot of both TOCA3 and LFS lately, and it feel like LFS did archive some decent driving model, because it feels more challenging than FM4/GT5 in some areas.
Scaff
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I played quite a bit of LFS over the years and its a shame that the development for it effectively dried up.
The core physics model was good and solid and the suspension modelling, while limited in the number of types it covered was very good, the only real issue I had with it was the tyre model always seemed a bit basic (something the devs freely acknowledge has been a massive learning curve for them and has been in development since 2010 - http://www.lfs.net/?page=report_dec2010 - its no wonder T10 looked to a tyre manufacturer for assistance).
A number of members often compared Enthusia to LFS and in some regard I can see why, and to be honest parts of FM4 remind me of LFS with a good tyre model attached (LFS had better suspension modelling for the types it covered).
Scaff
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Scaff
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ScaffSo give that I hope you would agree that this statement...
....was un-needed and we can actually move onto a sensible discussion without wild rhetoric.
Neither title gets its right and from that starting point we can sensibly compare both to each other and the real world.
Scaff
I have say that car can go out if: tyre are broken, car damaged or with comfort hard tyre
Scaff
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Tyres wear/overheating and car damage is a separate issue and nothing to do with torque causing the rear of a car to step out on launch.
I don't personally recall this happening with CH tyres but will give it a go later tonight (work permitting) but again you should not have to go to that level of tyre for it to happen.
Scaff
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Something strange I came across in GT5 while trying to take a pic in a Civic hatch on Nurburgring GP's main straight.. I was lining up the car at an angle close to the first walkway bridge. The car would start to roll back by itself when the brake pedal was released. That's not what was strange. What was strange was that turning the wheel going even 1-3mph in reverse rolling back by itself, the car exhibited lean as if it was taking an actual turn! Anyone experience this? Thought it was strange.
Lukeydopeyus
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Lukeydopeyus
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IMO GT5 put the default tires at least a level or 2 above the actual in game tires compared to the real life. For old cars before 1990's, the closest tire in game to real life would be comfort hard for most road cars, 1990 upwards, they usually should have comfort medium to comfort soft for the hi performance cars although some cars have sports hard or med - usually with power above 400hp. I found the grip level to be the most realistic with comfort tires if I am referring to real world road performance in stock condition.
For circuit driving, sports hard or medium at most - similar to Advan Neova AD series, RE 55s, Azenis RTs, sports soft is way too grippy to be considered road legal semi slick in real life like Falken Azenis or RE55's. I've driven R33 GTR and GC WRX with Falken Azenis and RE55 on the street, they are sticky tires for sure, but in GT5 sports hard or medium would be the equivalent. For Jensen Interceptor, the proper tire would be comfort hard or medium, old cars like Jensen should have the old radial tires. After some research, the interceptor had an ER70 VR15 standard tire, which is around 185/ 205 VR15 for today standard
Source :
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/jensen/interceptor_2gen/interceptor_iii/1974.html
Hope this helps a bit, cheers
Scaff
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Which should allow it to occur.
Lets have a look at how the numbers work to see what should be happening and a rough idea of the forces involved.
Now some base assumptions we will have to work with, torque steer (or whatever people wish to refer to it as) occurs because of an unequal distribution of torque between the driven tyres. It will be at its most severe when one tyre looses traction before the other(s) do, now while it can of course occur much less dramatically before traction is lost this does at the very least allow us to work some numbers.
If traction can be lost then torque steer can occur, so lets take a relatively low powered RWD car with a reasonable curb weight and run the numbers. The car in question I'm using is a BMW 116i, not a power house I'm sure we would all agree. Now it is important to note that the 116i would not step out to a huge degree, more give its hips a quick wiggle, mainly due to the peaky nature of its torque delivery.
Stats are here:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsData/BMW-1-Series-116i-Sport/259525/
Now first to work out the torque at the driven wheels. So take the torque and multiple it by the first gear ratio (as I assume we are launching in first) and the final drive ratio.
That gives us:
162 ftlbs x 4.55(1st gear) x 2.813(final) = 2,073.4623 ftlbs.
Now we have to divide that by two as we have two driven wheels which gives us 1,036.7 ftlbs of torque at each wheel.
Now we need to look at what that is resisting, well the curb weight is 2,843lbs and to make things nice and easy we will divide that by four (would never happen in reality and one of the reasons why torque steer occurs) and we get 710.75 lbs at each tyre.
However that needs to be multiplied by the frictional co-ef of the tyre fitted, now an average road tyre will run around 0.9, which would give us 640 lbs of resistance. Which the car is more than able to overcome at well below peak torque.
Tyre co-ef info - http://hpwizard.com/tire-friction-coefficient.html
So what sort of tyres would we need to fit to a 116i to generate more grip than the engine torque could overcome, well a bit of maths would give us a frictional co-ef of 1.45 which puts us into Formula grad tyres!
Now given that torque steer can occur below this traction limit to a less degree it means that we would need to be fitting Formula spec tyres to a 116i (that generates only 162 ftlbs of torque) before we could hope to significantly reduce (not remove) torque steer.
This is the reason why I'm quite confident in saying that we should be seeing the rear of any RWD car step out pretty much regardless of what tyres are fitted.
Scaff
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Scaff
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At the risk of sounding flippant, its PD's fault
However I know what you mean and to be honest without having access to PD's calculations we can only make assumptions about that.
Certainly not having a robust tyre model doesn't help, but that alone doesn't preclude torque steer being modelled. Suspension modelling being inadequate would be the next step up the chain and certainly would be one of the areas I would look at being at fault. Then we have the basics, we know that GT differentiate between static front and rear weight distribution, but do they also account for left and right distribution?
I personally think its likely to be a combination of these factors that are at play.
Scaff
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