FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[Barn One]

I'm really, REALLY tired of seeing the "GT gives me 1000! (<-big number!) cars to drive", whilst "F4 gives me some cars that i can tune build etc and makes me not care about etc etc", thought process.
It's tiresome and just plain hypocriticle.

So how is picking a random car out of GT5 and slapping the upgrade parts on it and tuning it ANY different than what F4 does.
If you think it's makes you not care about the car in F4, (to use a worn out phrase because it actually fits here,especially here", Your doing it wrong.

If none of the variety of cars in F4 are valid because of this then neither are GT5's, even more so in GT5 because of the variations of the same car.

To be on topic here so as not to drag it off topic, at least F4 chose a actual tire manufactuer. The companies tire may not be the best out there but it beats another game that doesn't use one, but rather decides on it's own what tires should do.
Then use "comfort" tire choices as the "if you want realism, use these".
Kinda makes you wonder if those are the real choices for sim, what are the other ones for huh. "just saying".

 

[thelvynau]

I'm really, REALLY tired of seeing the "GT gives me 1000! (<-big number!) cars to drive", whilst "F4 gives me some cars that i can tune build etc and makes me not care about etc etc", thought process.
It's tiresome and just plain hypocriticle.

So how is picking a random car out of GT5 and slapping the upgrade parts on it and tuning it ANY different than what F4 does.
If you think it's makes you not care about the car in F4, (to use a worn out phrase because it actually fits here,especially here", Your doing it wrong.

If none of the variety of cars in F4 are valid because of this then neither are GT5's, even more so in GT5 because of the variations of the same car.

To be on topic here so as not to drag it off topic, at least F4 chose a actual tire manufactuer. The companies tire may not be the best out there but it beats another game that doesn't use one, but rather decides on it's own what tires should do.
Then use "comfort" tire choices as the "if you want realism, use these".
Kinda makes you wonder if those are the real choices for sim, what are the other ones for huh. "just saying".

Just one thing about your post whats wrong with people stating fact like there is 1000+ cars in gt5?

Just curious.

 

[Luminis]

^ I guess the point was that GT5's list is taken at face value, with the number 1,000 being thrown around, whilstignoring that Forza, while it has less cars, offers more customization and a more diverse line-up of cars. That's what I get from that, at least.

All I wanted to say, though, and I sure hope nobody takes offense, is the following: I haven't kept track of the thread, to be quite honest, but after skimming over the most recent pages, I do have to wonder why people who never played both games to the same extend feel that they are qualified to give any sort of conclusion on the matter of physics, among other things.

Just wondering, you know. But, anyways, carry on.

 

[thelvynau]

^ I guess the point was that GT5's list is taken at face value, with the number 1,000 being thrown around, whilstignoring that Forza, while it has less cars, offers more customization and a more diverse line-up of cars. That's what I get from that, at least.

All I wanted to say, though, and I sure hope nobody takes offense, is the following: I haven't kept track of the thread, to be quite honest, but after skimming over the most recent pages, I do have to wonder why people who never played both games to the same extend feel that they are qualified to give any sort of conclusion on the matter of physics, among other things.

Just wondering, you know. But, anyways, carry on.

That is a good point I do agree if you havent played both I doubt that you would give a complete opinion on this topic.

I love both games to death.

 

[ItsHim]

I'm really, REALLY tired of seeing the "GT gives me 1000! (<-big number!) cars to drive", whilst "F4 gives me some cars that i can tune build etc and makes me not care about etc etc", thought process.
It's tiresome and just plain hypocriticle.

So how is picking a random car out of GT5 and slapping the upgrade parts on it and tuning it ANY different than what F4 does.
If you think it's makes you not care about the car in F4, (to use a worn out phrase because it actually fits here,especially here", Your doing it wrong.

If none of the variety of cars in F4 are valid because of this then neither are GT5's, even more so in GT5 because of the variations of the same car.

To be on topic here so as not to drag it off topic, at least F4 chose a actual tire manufactuer. The companies tire may not be the best out there but it beats another game that doesn't use one, but rather decides on it's own what tires should do.
Then use "comfort" tire choices as the "if you want realism, use these".
Kinda makes you wonder if those are the real choices for sim, what are the other ones for huh. "just saying".

FM and GT are both car games, yet they take each their own approach. I like to compare that to television. There's public and theres private television. They both show moving pictures. The motivation of public telly (should) be providing entertainment to the viewers. While the goal of private telly is to provide viewers to their costumers. Costumers being the companies which buy ads.

Same thing at first glance, very different matter on second thoughts.

Now I've always felt FM is built around XBL. Having been a long time gold member I think I can comment on that pretty well. FM does an outstanding job. To provide content for online interaction there's much more than online racing. Basically there's the leader boards and the auction house, the latter being fuelled by user generated content. Thus a livery editor and extensive tuning have their place and are done the way T10 did them.

PSN and GT are lacking any serious online efforts in that respect. There's no way GT could benefit from a livery editor the scope of Forza's.

Thus the focus is way different.

Speaking of tyres, they have been part of the equation for FM. The franchise to my knowledge was always very fond of "grip". Thus AWD swaps were so popular because the free grip gained could be traded in for lesser tyres and more room for power upgrades. There used to be the bamboo rockets, running very low grip tyres and thus destroying everyone on a straight because all the upgrades were used for shedding weight and adding power. Suzuka and the Nordschleife suffered a lot from these cars. Block in the corners, power away in the straights. Not a happy mixture if coupled by grip tunes.

GT fortunately doesn't count tyres to the performance index. This works as tyres are basically a way to balance the gameplay. Want an easy life? Slap on super sticky compounds and make gameplay more arcade. Want to enjoy your ride? Make full use of the physics model and run low grip economy rubber. I'd say even a race car up to GT500 class drives just fine with sports soft.

So it's the same thing, tyres, but the meaning in each franchise is totally different.

T10 has been claiming so many things over the years, things they supposedly do better than the competition. I've gotten a bit weary of promises over the years. Why they feel they have to go down this road I don't know.

There's a lot in favour of FM, especially the competition online aspect. There's another bunch of things GT offers.

What comes down on top is in my view totally which aspects of gameplay one does value most. Given the cost of the hardware there's little need to stick to one anyway. Have both if you feel the need.

I've got some serious time with FM2 under my belt and from what I've seen from FM3, little has changed on a fundamental level. FM4 might be the true successor to FM2, but as I'm personally very fond of the kid in a candy shop atmosphere that GT has the advantage.

If I would like to build my personal car, I'd had to go for FM. If I would really want to set up a virtual car as in real life, I had to go for PC sims. So I stick with what I feel is the best and most comprehensive representation of driving any car fresh from the dealers. That makes GT not better, but also certainly not worse than FM. Remember private and public telly? That's all it boils down to for me. Happy Easter.

 

[X-Power]

I've got some serious time with FM2 under my belt and from what I've seen from FM3, little has changed on a fundamental level. FM4 might be the true successor to FM2, but as I'm personally very fond of the kid in a candy shop atmosphere that GT has the advantage.

Wait a second... If I understand your post correctly, you haven't actually played Forza 4? If you haven't experienced Forza 4, then how can you possibly know what the cars drive like?
Forza 4's physics are much better than Forza 2/Forza 3's physics, the cars are now fun to drive in Forza 4, each car has unique handling characteristics in FM4 and are now fun to drive without needing to tune them. I suggest you play Forza 4 for a minimum time of 5 hours, and then form an opinion.

You cannot judge Forza 4 by playing previous Forza games. Forza 4's physics are much better now.

 

[MagpieRacer]

The difference between FM2 and FM3 was absolutely huge. The whole "From what I've seen" doesn't cut it here. You havn't played them.

 

[cuco33]

Not sure about you guys but one of the things I think gt5's pi system is broken is the fact it doesn't take all mods into account, especially and specifically tires.

 

[Tornado]

Tires were taken into account. That was removed when the individual tire restrictions were (finally) implemented into the game.

 

[Spagetti69]

Not sure about you guys but one of the things I think gt5's pi system is broken is the fact it doesn't take all mods into account, especially and specifically tires.

I posted about GT's class system in another thread. Basically if they want to go forward they are going to have to drop the variable HP changes. Theory being is that after one race, you could theoretically return to the lobby and find out your car has just been upgraded to another class.
I know there's a lot more to it but dropping the variable value would be a start.

 

[Tornado]

You mean the engine break-in?

 

[Spagetti69]

You mean the engine break-in?

Yep that's what it's called is it.
I haven't played in ages but from what I've read the values go up and down like an up and down thingy.

 

[cuco33]

That actually happened to me. I was doing a seasonal event and set my car up to the max pp. After 1race the car gained a tiny bit of power going up just 1pp. This was before the power limiter so I had to build another car.

Tires not rated in pp is just dumb. The same pp600 car can drastically improve lap times simply by swapping better rubber. Why would anyone not want this?? One of the best upgrades anyone can do in real life is putting better tires on. It isn't the only modification that doesn't affect pp either but to me it is the biggest one that is missing.

 

[Tornado]

Why does it make any difference unless you are in a room with unlimited tire selection?

 

[phillgt2002]

A video I made, it's great for a good look a physics.

 

[cuco33]

Why does it make any difference unless you are in a room with unlimited tire selection?

Why upgrade and modify a car at all? Why not just race stock for stock?
To me it makes no sense to not include tires in pp calculation. Keep the restrictions as is but factor in tire compounds. If pd did this, you would have cars built differently at same pp. You can go for power or grip or balance it. Keep restrictions so events or online that limit tire just as the limit pp/power/weight/layout/etc.
in my nook, it is broken. Pp is a measure of a car's performance range and tire compound a car is on should be one of the key factors to this pp rating

 

[Tornado]

Why upgrade and modify a car at all? Why not just race stock for stock?

No, that logic doesn't follow at all.

If I can enter in a 500PP room with tires limited to SM, what difference does it make if tires are included in PP?

To me it makes no sense to not include tires in pp calculation. Keep the restrictions as is but factor in tire compounds. If pd did this, you would have cars built differently at same pp. You can go for power or grip or balance it. Keep restrictions so events or online that limit tire just as the limit pp/power/weight/layout/etc.
in my nook, it is broken. Pp is a measure of a car's performance range and tire compound a car is on should be one of the key factors to this pp rating

This also doesn't explain anything. Base grip (tire dimensions) are taken into account by PP as far as I'm aware, so I'm still not seeing what difference it makes.

 

[cuco33]

If you entered a SM restricted tire race where max pp was 500 then you can shed more weight, add more power or add other upgrades which brings your car ip to pp500 while on SM. If you were in a SH tire restriction, simply add more power upgrades, drivetrain upgrades or shed more weight. All you are doing going into a pp500 SM restricted event is tossing the tire issue from not being in pp out of the equation.

Tires are not factored in pp. If they start at 'base grip' like a CH then how does pp ho up by putting SS? It doesn't. Hence why I think it's broken by not factoring tire compounds intp the pp rating

 

[ItsHim]

Wait a second... If I understand your post correctly, you haven't actually played Forza 4? If you haven't experienced Forza 4, then how can you possibly know what the cars drive like?

You cannot judge Forza 4 by playing previous Forza games. Forza 4's physics are much better now.

As MS choose to not give silver members the opportunity to download the FM4 demo, I only had the chance to play the kiosk demo. Besides that, I had the FM3 demo, still been a gold member at that time (though I can't recall if the FM3 demo was gold only back then).

I'd really like to judge Forza's physics from a point of view that is very important to me: how's the engine holding up to abnormal tuning settings. Settings that would be either impossible in real life or wouldn't be feasible.

The difference between FM2 and FM3 was absolutely huge. The whole "From what I've seen" doesn't cut it here. You havn't played them.

Might want to answer my question (see above) then? I'm genuinely interested. And I do follow the occasional thread on fm.net still btw, so I haven't lost touch completely with the franchise.
Edit: I played the FM3 demo, and me personally wouldn't call the step forward "huge". See a couple of posts above, I think I elaborated my grudge with FM3.

 

[Scaff]

As MS choose to not give silver members the opportunity to download the FM4 demo, I only had the chance to play the kiosk demo. Besides that, I had the FM3 demo, still been a gold member at that time (though I can't recall if the FM3 demo was gold only back then).

I'd really like to judge Forza's physics from a point of view that is very important to me: how's the engine holding up to abnormal tuning settings. Settings that would be either impossible in real life or wouldn't be feasible.




Might want to answer my question (see above) then? I'm genuinely interested. And I do follow the occasional thread on fm.net still btw, so I haven't lost touch completely with the franchise.

Give us an example of what you would consider to be impossible and/or un-feasable and why and I'm sure a number of us would be more than happy to put it to the test for you.



Scaff

 

[ItsHim]

Give us an example of what you would consider to be impossible and/or un-feasable and why and I'm sure a number of us would be more than happy to put it to the test for you.



Scaff

I usually participated in B700 in FM2, so you might want to build a car to the corresponding spec in FM4. Go for a grip tune, FWD drivetrain, stickiest tyre compound. Aim for a 1:55 lap time on Mugello or Silverstone as a benchmark.

1st step would be putting the ARBs to 1/40 and leaving them there. Run very soft springs, very soft compression but very high rebound. Caster, camber, tyre pressure, LSD, rim size, tyre width, etc is up to you.

Hint: set the gears so that most of the track could be run in one gear. Not changing gears often is imperative, 3rd should be your workhorse. The ruling LB car, the R5, did it in a single gear from start to finish on Mugello (abs, no other aids).

Compare this to a setup you would see fit by sticking to a rule book. Your own will do very nicely indeed Scaff

I can provide tunes for Vauxhall Astra (exhibition top 100) and Nissan Sentra, Lancia Delta, R5, Mugen top 100 LB cars, Though only via PM as they are either not my tunes or use parts of other peoples setups. Maybe they still work, or the principle still works. If not I happily stand corrected because as I said before: I'm genuinely interested how Forza 4 does in these circumstances.

Good luck

 

[Scaff]

I usually participated in B700 in FM2, so you might want to build a car to the corresponding spec in FM4. Go for a grip tune, FWD drivetrain, stickiest tyre compound. Aim for a 1:55 lap time on Mugello or Silverstone as a benchmark.

1st step would be putting the ARBs to 1/40 and leaving them there. Run very soft springs, very soft compression but very high rebound. Caster, camber, tyre pressure, LSD, rim size, tyre width, etc is up to you.

Hint: set the gears so that most of the track could be run in one gear. Not changing gears often is imperative, 3rd should be your workhorse. The ruling LB car, the R5, did it in a single gear from start to finish on Mugello (abs, no other aids).

Compare this to a setup you would see fit by sticking to a rule book. Your own will do very nicely indeed Scaff

I can provide tunes for Vauxhall Astra (exhibition top 100) and Nissan Sentra, Lancia Delta, R5, Mugen top 100 LB cars, Though only via PM as they are either not my tunes or use parts of other peoples setups. Maybe they still work, or the principle still works. If not I happily stand corrected because as I said before: I'm genuinely interested how Forza 4 does in these circumstances.

Good luck

I doubt I will get a chance to run it tonight and without playing with the values I do have to question what the major issue with the set-up you mention is as aside from the odd bound rebound setting the rest is pretty typical FWD touring car or the likes of the Clio cup.

Scaff

 

[ItsHim]

I doubt I will get a chance to run it tonight and without playing with the values I do have to question what the major issue with the set-up you mention is as aside from the odd bound rebound setting the rest is pretty typical FWD touring car or the likes of the Clio cup.

Scaff

The ARB settings worked a little too good for my liking. No matter the chassis, a setting of 1/40 would almost always produce the best lap times. I could count the exceptions from this rule on maybe 2 fingers. And that's a bit too good to be universally true without any drawbacks. Also the gearing should raise an eyebrow. Myself I'm quite lazy shifting gears, even more so with my G25 and clutch, but a single gear on Mugello? Thats a bit optimistic even for my liking. Just watched Gan-San doing the Nirdschleife in a Scooby in an old Best Motoring episode and he was changing gears so often I wondered if he simply did this to make a statement.

Very soft springs and especially very very soft compression (bump) settings along with extremely hard extension (rebound) settings and a low ride height should result in a car that's riding on the shock stops a lot. Or is constantly bottoming out. Please do correct me if I'm wrong. One downside was also poor braking performance, but this was compensated by the ABS.

Forza 3 dealt with this, as far as I could tell, by adding an impact penalty on the car underside. It did encourage folks to mind their settings as to avoid invalidating lap times, but was there a cure for the problem or only the symptoms?

Very good garages I remember from the top of my head were VVV (very fast and aggressive), WWR and SloPoke. Don't know if anybody is in touch with them, or if they are even still around.

Now don't get me wrong, I was fascinated by the effects of minor changes to the suspension. They reflected rather well on lap times. Instantly in fact. Quite enjoyable. It's just the realism (used in a casual sense, it's still a console game after all) I felt was hurt.

Take your time though, and I'm really open minded to the results.

 

[Luminis]

I can't comment on all of the issues you're raising, but one thing I ran into recently was bottoming out. I've been preparing a Viper SRT-10 ACR for S700 and had a lot of trouble with the car bottoming out due to the extremely high downforce it produces - at least on bumpier tracks, like Infineon. Bottoming out doesn't invalidate your lap times anymore, but should your car hit the ground too hard, it'll easily unsettle the chassis. Not so much while going in a straight line, but bottoming out hard while cornering made me lose control quite a few times yesterday, before increasing the spring rates by a lot. Also had to increase bump a bit to keep the car from scraping during high speed corners, in order to avoid said issues.

On the ARBs: Depending on the cars, I'm running very different values. My GT300 Cusco Advan Impreza is set to a very low value, for example, while I'm running some pretty high values on other cars, so I'd say that there's no universal ARB setting that will get you the best results under all circumstances.

Gearing... Well, driving a track in one gear would be possible, I suppose, but it sure as hell wouldn't be fast. Especially if you're using the clutch, which cuts down your shift times and allows you to power shift. Running in just one gear would absolutely kill your lap times. I mean, upgrading from a four-speed to a six-speed transmission is quite often a huge step forward, in terms of lap times, as well...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

A video I made, it's great for a good look a physics.

Nice vid, and great choice on the music. I think is just the replay but might be overall, anyways thier is a break away in graphics like you'd see on old old games. Where parts of the cars lose their color for a bit or parts of the car become a bit block and digital like.

FM4 to me will always have the best car selection of any console game. As far as diversity and respect to road and racing cars goes.

 

[ItsHim]

I can't comment on all of the issues you're raising, but one thing I ran into recently was bottoming out. I've been preparing a Viper SRT-10 ACR for S700 and had a lot of trouble with the car bottoming out due to the extremely high downforce it produces - at least on bumpier tracks, like Infineon. Bottoming out doesn't invalidate your lap times anymore, but should your car hit the ground too hard, it'll easily unsettle the chassis. Not so much while going in a straight line, but bottoming out hard while cornering made me lose control quite a few times yesterday, before increasing the spring rates by a lot. Also had to increase bump a bit to keep the car from scraping during high speed corners, in order to avoid said issues.

On the ARBs: Depending on the cars, I'm running very different values. My GT300 Cusco Advan Impreza is set to a very low value, for example, while I'm running some pretty high values on other cars, so I'd say that there's no universal ARB setting that will get you the best results under all circumstances.

Gearing... Well, driving a track in one gear would be possible, I suppose, but it sure as hell wouldn't be fast. Especially if you're using the clutch, which cuts down your shift times and allows you to power shift. Running in just one gear would absolutely kill your lap times. I mean, upgrading from a four-speed to a six-speed transmission is quite often a huge step forward, in terms of lap times, as well...

That's a good thing then if bottoming out or riding the stops is reflected in car handling. Also simply penalising ended, so that's also a good thing as I think it reflects the will to actually fix things and not gloss them over.

To be honest I totally ignored the introduction of the clutch to FM, mainly because in the FM3 demo it was button pressing thing. Should have thought of that.

I didn't video any hotlaps and I haven't been on the 360 for quite some time, so I can't say if the old replays are still up. But gearing made or broke a tune (that's true however) but do believe me: the top LB runs were done in very few gears or even a single one.

I haven't followed the scene in depth for quite some time now, so I wouldn't know, but I believe setups are still locked now? That's an issue for me as there is little public review of how fast setups are made. In FM2, the really good ones were handed down the line in a matter of weeks. WWR or VVV sooner or later released a tune, thus the little tricks were known at some point. That's not to say many weren't helpful or very friendly, but by locking setups T10 turned tuning, and the physics engine, into a black box.

Anyway I did search YouTube for some top lb replays but little came up, so if you have some please do pass me a link. Preferably from Motegi, Mugello, Suzuka or Silverstone as I rather know these tracks well.

Tires are not factored in pp. If they start at 'base grip' like a CH then how does pp ho up by putting SS? It doesn't. Hence why I think it's broken by not factoring tire compounds intp the pp rating

You'll probably get less variety in cars running on a grid if you leave out tyres, but on the other hand you can easily set a basic tone to the race. I personally like low grip racing, others may need max grip to enjoy themselves. In my experience grip and speed setups don't mix that well on the same track.

 

[Spagetti69]

Locking tunes, vinyls etc is nessecary to protect the creator.
Wouldn't be nice to create a tune, put it on the marketplace just for someone else to put it straight back on there own SF.

One trick I used in F3 and I'm not ashamed to say lol.
Buy a tune, buy a stock car with no parts you've previously bought (important). Load up the tune and go to upgrade. Fit a part. It will say can not fit as the build is locked, do you want to remove locked tune. Click yes and the parts get removed.
You then have the parts removed but in the upgrade shop there's a tick next to all the parts that were previously on the car.

Now you know the build of the car but not the actual tuning of it. So you can put on the parts but will have to tune it yourself, not ideal but a good start.

Not sure if this is news to anyone, haven't tried it on F4 and really I only did it very rarely(Honestly).

One other thing. Tuning is very subjective. What works as a great car for the owner sometimes gets a negative review by others who think that the tuner is trying to scam them. Theres certainly some dodgy tunes on the marketplace I'm sure.
I mean it's far easier to put up a tune and make money than it is to put up a rubbish paint job.

I've got some decent tuners saved on my favourites tab. You can look at other peoples favourites too. Basically when you find a couple of guys you trust, generally there favourites are genuine too.

Just some tips for peeps who may be unaware of certain things. Hell some people don't know they can customise there garage.

Quick story. When tuning a car using my wheel it took me ages to alter the spring rates pressing the buttons. I mentioned this to a mate in a lobby who pissed himself laughing when he said "turn the wheel, it changes the values quicker"
I never knew lol. This game has lots of things to still discover.

 

[ItsHim]

Locking tunes, vinyls etc is nessecary to protect the creator.
Wouldn't be nice to create a tune, put it on the marketplace just for someone else to put it straight back on there own SF.

Now you know the build of the car but not the actual tuning of it. So you can put on the parts but will have to tune it yourself, not ideal but a good start.

One other thing. Tuning is very subjective. What

I keep this short because I'm on the iPhone. So no disrespect.

Locking tunes: That's bollocks. I was so fed up of this whole cry baby thing back in the days. The good garages were so in the money the whole ecosystem became a joke. Now there were a lot of raffles and HLC, and loads of money were simply given away, too. Noone needed the money at all.

I guess the real problem were some super inflated egos. I won't launder any dirty clothing here, let's say I always held deep respect for folks like Tuntakel. Don't know if he's still around but this guy had a total disclosure policy and provided free access to all of his tunes. And they were bleeding fast. In all fairness if you were part of the community setups/cars were given freely.

The trick of downloading setups and then upgrading worked since FM2, though a bit might have changed.

Tuning, sorry to disagree, is not subjective. If its on top of the LB, it's good. Now I agree to personal preference. There are setups which complement the driving style and others which force the driver to adapt. Now for the things I do in GT5 I set up my cars, if at all, to handle neutral and preserve tyres. If I do a 4 hrs lap I want my car to behave itself. More often than not I don't do upgrades to the suspension at all but work with the chassis given.

You could say its unfair that I judge Forza much harsher than GT in that aspect. But that's because tuning is a cornerstone in Forza gameplay. So it should be as sound as possible. While in GT I wouldn't really say you play it because of tuning. You play it despite of.

 

[Spagetti69]

Tuning, sorry to disagree, is not subjective. If its on top of the LB, it's good.

If its on top of the LB I'd agree.
What I was getting at is suspect tunes. Where people say top 100 etc get it on my SF. A couple of us have suspected that the actual tune could be nerfed. Ie not THE actual tune.

A friend if mine has lots of top times on the board and he gives me tunes unlocked if I need them.
I'm still 3 seconds off his pace though lol.

I'm not saying all tuners just the scammers out there who for the sake of the LB won't give the actual tune but a similar one with slight amendments shall we say. Very much the minority I hope.

 

[ItsHim]

If its on top of the LB I'd agree.
What I was getting at is suspect tunes. Where people say top 100 etc get it on my SF. A couple of us have suspected that the actual tune could be nerfed. Ie not THE actual tune.

A friend if mine has lots of top times on the board and he gives me tunes unlocked if I need them.
I'm still 3 seconds off his pace though lol.

I'm not saying all tuners just the scammers out there who for the sake of the LB won't give the actual tune but a similar one with slight amendments shall we say. Very much the minority I hope.

Ah good ole days.

Now I understand what you meant:

Don't trust people, that's for sure. Best way to spot a fast tune is to hang round the official forum and have a look at the HLC and basically go for them. you have the times set by seriously fast guys and generally they are 100% legit.

With time you'll get an idea what to go for.

I think people often underestimate how much effort it takes to get a top spot. Usually 200 laps. Sometimes less, sometimes never. So 3 seconds off the pace isn't really that bad at all. Narrow it down to 1 second and you'll get booted from lobbies a lot and that's where the fun starts

I understand to some this means a lot, so they'll hang on to their tunes or it's a club tune that should not be put in the wild just yet. Anyway, when Anonymous is done saving the world maybe they'll have a look into things that really matter