FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[therealgt5]

I don't know man but this Scaff guy is on everything related to FM vs GT saying FM4 is better and by the things he shows it isn't better.

 

[thelvynau]

I don't know man but this Scaff guy is on everything related to FM vs GT saying FM4 is better and by the things he shows it isn't better.

How do you figure?

 

[Terronium-12]

I don't know man but this Scaff guy is on everything related to FM vs GT saying FM4 is better and by the things he shows it isn't better.

It's a conspiracy!

 

[UKMikey]

I guess launching off the start line in a drag race is easier with no torque steering being modelled. Some people might find that better for them.

Of course if Forza were easier at launching then it would be "arcade"

 

[X-Power]

I don't know man but this Scaff guy is on everything related to FM vs GT saying FM4 is better and by the things he shows it isn't better.

Really? From the evidence Scaff and others have presented, I'd say FM4 does indeed have more realistic physics than GT5. You may prefer GT5's physics but that doesn't make them more realistic than FM4's. Also, there is nothing wrong with Scaff correcting false statements written by heavily biased GT fans who have never played Forza 4.

Once again... there is nothing wrong with someone prefering GT5's physics, but when they start making false statements, such as trying to claim that FM4 is an arcade game, is when they should be corrected.

 

[therealgt5]

How do you figure?

figure what man?

 

[thelvynau]

figure what man?

How do you figure that he is showing its not better?

 

[Scaff]

I don't know man but this Scaff guy is on everything related to FM vs GT saying FM4 is better and by the things he shows it isn't better.

Care to share a specific example and this time without he swearing and abuse?


Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Only one slight issue with the above, and that's is I said you can't tell FEEL from a video, guess you missed that.

You also said behaviour traits and that is more important and you can see the response of the cars in videos and compare them to the simulator.

Soon as we are comparing a simulator to real life and majority of us know the feel is quite different, I don’t see what your point about feel is. No one is going to physically feel what is going on a video, it is common sense really hence why I missed that part out. Easiest thing to check is the behaviour and compare.

David Coulthard and Martin Brundle said something along the lines that they are not very good at driving sims, does not make behaviours of cars in the simulations that unrealistic due to driver not getting in-tune with the virtual world and these ex-f1 drivers have very good real world feeling of cars on the limit I would assume. Virtual drivers as well might not get in tune with the real world (More likely) and think a real world performance car might be like driving on ice but in hands of a racing driver, the car might look like it is on rails. Quite a lot of the current F1 drivers are very good at both but I don’t think that can be said about many who have posted in this thread. I think that is why there is quite a big difference in what peoples opinions of the physics engine are. GT5 for example, I think the way the cars behave have too much stability while others might think some cars are like driving on ice.

I've cut out a lot of the above simply because I have never claimed that going on the grass would result in a instant loss of control, that's something you have repeatedly stated.

My point has always been that grass is much more complex than that and that GT5 still doesn't get it right (and neither does FM4), you want to think GT5 does a good job then feel free (a point I have repeatedly said).

However GT5 has grass that is too slippy and causes almost no loss of speed, that I don't consider to be good enough.

You more or less said it here: http://www.forzaplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=24486#post24486

And the following quote also is stating similar things.

Really. I've put tyres on grass at tracks (in the real world) and very rarely does it result in spinny death, certainly not to the degree GT would have you believe.



And I've never seen icy grass on a sunny track with summer temperatures.

Neither titles uses these effects realistically, they are both crude anti-cheat mechanisms and would be better done away with in my opinion.


Scaff

What should my interpretation of your comments be, you tell me?

I have clarified my position on the grass quite a few times now and will say this to you. I think a lateral loaded rear tyre is simulated well with a rear wheel drive car and also braking on grass is also simulated quite well. I also think GT5 is still more forgiving than real life for the most part in this department especially for road cars. Soon as you reply to my posts, does it not occur to you if you actually read my posts, that I don’t think of GT5 grass that highly, just quite a bit opposite to you. I think it is more forgiving than real life on the track edges for road cars for the most part and lot of stuff is not simulated which I have discussed with you previously. You don’t see me replying to your posts that state negatives of a game and me assuming you think everything is fine in that area afterwards and try and force that opinion on you do you?

How is it too slippy when it is very grippy for the most part?
Road cars is certainly very forgiving as you mention the no loss of speed but at least for say fan cars or high downforce cars like F1, grass does slow you down a bit.

I have never come close to saying that the launch is the only factor required to show that FM4 has a stronger physics model that GT5, hell even following that link leads to two videos discussing differing parts of the physics engine, follow it even further back and yet more areas are discussed.

What annoys me even more is that you were involved in that discussion so you know full well that I have not used a single point in this discussion.

Don't imply this again, as you know its not even close to true, I've covered tuning issues, tyre deformation, steering angle, launch, grip progression, GT5's lat-g increase factors and much more in this thread alone.

What I have said is that its a quite an easy test to carry out that does illustrate the issues GT5 has in this area, and as such is quite independent of any other title (and that is not a claim that its all that's needed). That is unless you are under the impression that how GT5 handles launches is just fine.


Scaff

I was just posting in a similar manner to you but regarding FM2, surely you can see the resemblance to what you wrote and what I wrote (End of this post: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6842775#post6842775).

Now the main one of these I care about is the physics, so please take a look at this post....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showth...60# post6469660


... and recreate the second video clip in GT5 and then when you can't come back and tell me how GT5 still has the better physics engine.

Thanks

Scaff

As for assists, I'm still a bit annoyed that PD saddles us with a permanent TCS aid for reverse gear and when driving off-track. Sure, in an ideal race I won't ever notice those things, but it's a strange choice to make nonetheless.

Are you sure about this? Will check when I get a chance on road cars. What I remember certainly for the F2007, reverse has no traction control enabled unless I'm losing my marbles.

I guess launching off the start line in a drag race is easier with no torque steering being modelled. Some people might find that better for them.

Of course if Forza were easier at launching then it would be "arcade"

Well Scaff's example is not really got much to do with torque steering being modelled, more to do with suspension and tyre contact patch. I think tyre deformation in FM3 or FM4 really make much of a difference as launches are very similar to FM2 although that may have tyre deformation modelled (Not sure, haven't checked. If it does then tyre deformation may be a reason why it does in Forza what it does on launches). Anyone who's got all three want to make a video of the same car on the same track in all three games at the same launch point with onboard telemetry of suspension to compare any differences between the games?

 

[Scaff]

You also said behaviour traits and that is more important and you can see the response of the cars in videos and compare them to the simulator.

Soon as we are comparing a simulator to real life and majority of us know the feel is quite different, I don’t see what your point about feel is. No one is going to physically feel what is going on a video, it is common sense really hence why I missed that part out. Easiest thing to check is the behaviour and compare.

Yes I did mention behaviour traits and in that regard would agree that you can get a basic idea of them from a video, however the bulk of my point is in regard to feel.

I don't agree (as you seem to be saying) that feel can simply be ignored.

David Coulthard and Martin Brundle said something along the lines that they are not very good at driving sims, does not make behaviours of cars in the simulations that unrealistic due to driver not getting in-tune with the virtual world and these ex-f1 drivers have very good real world feeling of cars on the limit I would assume. Virtual drivers as well might not get in tune with the real world (More likely) and think a real world performance car might be like driving on ice but in hands of a racing driver, the car might look like it is on rails. Quite a lot of the current F1 drivers are very good at both but I don’t think that can be said about many who have posted in this thread. I think that is why there is quite a big difference in what peoples opinions of the physics engine are. GT5 for example, I think the way the cars behave have too much stability while others might think some cars are like driving on ice.

Some people will never get on with a sim, others will. Colin Mcrae always said he was never fast in a sim, Richard Burns on the other hand went out of his way to develop one of the most important rally sims ever and his involvement was very significant. I can't comment on the experience any of these people have had, what I can comment on is my own experience and how it compares.

You more or less said it here: http://www.forzaplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=24486#post24486

And the following quote also is stating similar things.

Let me clarify here because I think my references are getting mixed up here.

Real world - grass doesn't automatically mean a trip backwards into spinny death.

GT5 - grass is too slippery (caused in my opinion by a reduction in the grip co-ef) resulting in little slowdown and control loss that occurs far too easily.

FM4 - grass is too sticky (caused in my opinion by a massive increase in the rolling resistance of the tyre)

Net result - neither do a good job of replicating what grass is actually like to drive on or cut across.

What should my interpretation of your comments be, you tell me?

I have clarified my position on the grass quite a few times now and will say this to you. I think a lateral loaded rear tyre is simulated well with a rear wheel drive car and also braking on grass is also simulated quite well. I also think GT5 is still more forgiving than real life for the most part in this department especially for road cars. Soon as you reply to my posts, does it not occur to you if you actually read my posts, that I don’t think of GT5 grass that highly, just quite a bit opposite to you. I think it is more forgiving than real life on the track edges for road cars for the most part and lot of stuff is not simulated which I have discussed with you previously. You don’t see me replying to your posts that state negatives of a game and me assuming you think everything is fine in that area afterwards and try and force that opinion on you do you?

How is it too slippy when it is very grippy for the most part?
Road cars is certainly very forgiving as you mention the no loss of speed but at least for say fan cars or high downforce cars like F1, grass does slow you down a bit.

Hopefully what I think is outlined above and makes sense.

Well Scaff's example is not really got much to do with torque steering being modelled, more to do with suspension and tyre contact patch. I think tyre deformation in FM3 or FM4 really make much of a difference as launches are very similar to FM2 although that may have tyre deformation modelled (Not sure, haven't checked. If it does then tyre deformation may be a reason why it does in Forza what it does on launches). Anyone who's got all three want to make a video of the same car on the same track in all three games at the same launch point with onboard telemetry of suspension to compare any differences between the games?

Have you reviewed the FM4 telemetry for this when it occurs?

The effect has key hallmarks of a combination of torque steer and contact patch changes.

What I would ask you given your comment above is what do you believe is causing the tyre deformation and suspension movement?

However the test you have proposed is an interesting one and as I have all three may be worth a go, but keep in mind that you are making an assumption that none of these titles model torque distribution. Given that titles like RBR and Enthusia were modelling this back on the PS2 its not a big leap.

It would after all take a very brave person to say that GT's low speed physics have not always been one of the series weak areas, and a topic of old....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70051


Scaff

 

[soheibV12]

Forza physics are more informative but not more realistic, it's when you look at a GT5 vs real (same car, same track) that you can see How gt5 does like real (yes video scaff) . Because it's not the same with forza 4 vs real

 

[Terronium-12]

As asked time and time again, how's that video evidence coming along?

 

[buickgnx88]

Is this meant to be a text version of a Spirograph?

 

[Patrick]

As asked time and time again, how's that video evidence coming along?

He's probably not home yet.

 

[tribolik]

Forza physics are more informative but not more realistic, it's when you look at a GT5 vs real (same car, same track) that you can see How gt5 does like real (yes video scaff) . Because it's not the same with forza 4 vs real

I think you are mistaking physics with track model accuracy...

 

[Scaff]

Forza physics are more informative but not more realistic, it's when you look at a GT5 vs real (same car, same track) that you can see How gt5 does like real (yes video scaff) . Because it's not the same with forza 4 vs real

Then please explain this:



Oh and I'm (and others) are awaiting a lot of information you have said you will provide, you said we would get it as soon as you were home. I've been to Dubai and back since you said that so I hope you've had enough time.

One of the basic ones would be a car in GT5 giving some form of torque steer off the line, you can find plenty of those on the web, so please provide a video of GT5 doing the same.

Now I'm going to remind you of one of the requirements for posting in this thread (which are clear to see on the very first post):

If you make a claim back it up with sources - fail to do so and you will be asked to provide them

You've made numerous and failed to provide a single source or piece of supporting information, I expect your next post to provide it.


Scaff

 

[tribolik]

I have a message from soheibV12. He has finally arrived home but is sad to inform you that in Mars they dont have internet compatible with ours so it will be at least one other year before he gets back to Earth and posts the explanatory videos.

 

[soheibV12]

He's probably not home yet.

No im home but ive notice that we can't know suspension effect on the cars because gt physics model are not very informative

Then please explain this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdlOSxYLKxY">YouTube Link</a>

Oh and I'm (and others) are awaiting a lot of information you have said you will provide, you said we would get it as soon as you were home. I've been to Dubai and back since you said that so I hope you've had enough time.

One of the basic ones would be a car in GT5 giving some form of torque steer off the line, you can find plenty of those on the web, so please provide a video of GT5 doing the same.

Now I'm going to remind you of one of the requirements for posting in this thread (which are clear to see on the very first post):

You've made numerous and failed to provide a single source or piece of supporting information, I expect your next post to provide it.

Scaff

I will do that asap (maybe tomorrow) but in gt5 there isn't this car...

It's simple to do that, it's When i loose grip in a corner ( im gonna try for you with a sort of same car)

 

[Terronium-12]

I'm not even going to bother addressing your claims anymore as it's just one endless merry-go-round of nonsense, but I will address your constant double and triple posting.

Use the edit button. And Scaff beat me to it, yet, the warning remains true.

 

[Scaff]

No im home but ive notice that we can't know suspension effect on the cars because gt physics model are not very informative



I will do that asap (maybe tomorrow) but in gt5 there isn't this car...

It's simple to do that, it's When i loose grip in a corner ( im gonna try for you with a sort of same car)

So by tomorrow you will be providing us with an equivalent video for GT5 and comparing it to real world footage and also proving footage of a car in GT5 suffering from torque steer off the line and matching it to a real world video of the same car.

Excellent.


Scaff

 

[soheibV12]

So by tomorrow you will be providing us with an equivalent video for GT5 and comparing it to real world footage and also proving footage of a car in GT5 suffering from torque steer off the line and matching it to a real world video of the same car.

Excellent.

Scaff

If you like , don't think im liying

 

[Luminis]

Wow, I never knew that this thread was still around. Just a few more months and will be a full year

 

[phillgt2002]

This thread is 389 pages long which is ridiculous.

 

[thelvynau]

This thread is 389 pages long which is ridiculous.

On my gt planet app it says 777 pages which shows how much of a hot topic this is.

 

[Scaff]

If you like , don't think im liying

Well we have been waiting for quite a while now and you have promised to provide a wide range of information, none of which has ever materialised.


Scaff

 

[soheibV12]

Well we have been waiting for quite a while now and you have promised to provide a wide range of information, none of which has ever materialised.

Scaff

Because i have notice that we can't know how suspensions affect the car on GT5 but i have something... Whait today

 

[thelvynau]

Because i have notice that we can't know how suspensions affect the car on GT5 but i have something... Whait today

Somehow I dont think this information exists.

 

[soheibV12]

maybe this scaff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjuKxNLsoOw&feature=youtu.be

 

[thelvynau]

maybe this scaff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjuKxNLsoOw&feature=youtu.be

Im not sure what your trying to prove there

 

[soheibV12]

Im not sure what your trying to prove there

what scaff has done in his video