FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

[TokoTurismo]

^
Theres even sticky sand aswell. Laguna Seca is one of them when turning through the S-turn down hill part.

 

[PzR Slim]

I dont like the sticky grass. I cant remember which track it was ill have to check when im on forza again there is a part near a small chicane where one wheel lightly brushed the grass and my car almost stopped dead pretty annoying.

I don't like it either but I blame the cheaters who do their best to ruin online gaming, not just racing games but all online gaming. No matter what developers do the cheaters seem to be able to ruin it.

 

[thelvynau]

Agreed its needed to stop cheaters just not sure if it had to be implemented to the very edge of the grass. It probably just needed a buffer zone on the very edge so if your tyre accidently clipped the grass you wouldnt be brought to a almost stop.

This would be my only gripe about forza 4 aside from that a awesome effort by turn 10.

 

[88FoxBodyFan]

^
Theres even sticky sand aswell. Laguna Seca is one of them when turning through the S-turn down hill part.

Sand on race tracks slows you down dramatically in real life. It's a safety thing, so you don't slam into the wall at high speed.

 

[TokoTurismo]

Sand on race tracks slows you down dramatically in real life. It's a safety thing, so you don't slam into the wall at high speed.

Haha. I know, that's a good thing about sand. GT5 has something like that too.

 

[thelvynau]

Sand on race tracks slows you down dramatically in real life. It's a safety thing, so you don't slam into the wall at high speed.

Thats alright for the sand but grass on the edge of the track?

 

[88FoxBodyFan]

Thats alright for the sand but grass on the edge of the track?

What I said was in response to this:

^
Theres even sticky sand aswell. Laguna Seca is one of them when turning through the S-turn down hill part.

Grass doesn't slow you down much, but it also isn't slippery as ice like portrayed in GT5. There's alot of variables that can affect how a car is really supposed to handle in grass. Maybe it's something both games will work on in future installments.

 

[Scaff]

I know it's to stop cheaters. But how about a rainy day at the track? Will the grass be slippery then? I know the road will. How about snow? That's more slippery.

Hey Scaff, you should try this on a rainy day aswell.

Rain on a track will reduce grip most certainly, and by a greater degree than on a public road (race tracks generally have less camber, less drainage and finer grades of stone in the tarmac which result in a greater chance of standing water.

However even grass is not automatically lethal in these circumstances, painted track edges however are a bloody nightmare when wet, they will try and throw you sideways. On this point GT5 does try and model it.


Scaff

 

[TokoTurismo]

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

[JDMKING13]

Just got the CSR and um simply amazing. Thats all I gotta say about that "Gump"

 

[Zer0]

Really. I've put tyres on grass at tracks (in the real world) and very rarely does it result in spinny death, certainly not to the degree GT would have you believe.

"race 2 in the MR2 championship at Cadwell Park July 2009. Starting from 3rd I missed a gear on Park straight and lost a number of places. Whilst pushing har to regain a position I put a wheel on the grass spinning out and crashing into the tyre wall."

At 3:06
[youtubehd]3m0Cb-k_zcc&hd=1[/youtubehd]


"Driver of the Porsche GT3 Cup car tracked out just a bit too much and had his left side tires on the edge of the grass when he hit the brakes, causing the car to spin out and hit the wall."

At 2:06
[youtubehd]U8Mh330zw_k[/youtubehd]


"Went into turn 5 a little too hot and hit the curb and went for a ride."

At 0:34
[youtubehd]25kI34GMZXE[/youtubehd]

At 0:18
[youtubehd]5gIUXP1LQGY&hd=1[/youtubehd]

At 0:35
[youtubehd]k3EpZQhrwro[/youtubehd]


"Car veered hard left at initial braking and I could not get it back."

At 0:16
[youtubehd]v1PDTL6jIp8&hd=1[/youtubehd]


iRacing
"Started 8th, the initial start was good, however I dropped half a wheel on the grass at T1 which put me dead last (13th) and way behind."

At 0:15
[youtubehd]DnhS-IkwRiA&hd=1[/youtubehd]

 

[MagpieRacer]

"race 2 in the MR2 championship at Cadwell Park July 2009. Starting from 3rd I missed a gear on Park straight and lost a number of places. Whilst pushing har to regain a position I put a wheel on the grass spinning out and crashing into the tyre wall."

At 3:06
[youtubehd]3m0Cb-k_zcc&hd=1[/youtubehd]

Car was spinning before it reached the grass.

"Driver of the Porsche GT3 Cup car tracked out just a bit too much and had his left side tires on the edge of the grass when he hit the brakes, causing the car to spin out and hit the wall."

At 2:06
[youtubehd]U8Mh330zw_k[/youtubehd]

Wrong, when he hit the brakes he was fully on tarmac, he locked up started to lose control, spun once on the grass and then hit gravel.

"Went into turn 5 a little too hot and hit the curb and went for a ride."

At 0:34
[youtubehd]25kI34GMZXE[/youtubehd]

big of a lame slide I guess.

At 0:18
[youtubehd]5gIUXP1LQGY&hd=1[/youtubehd]

Already lost it before the grass.

At 0:35
[youtubehd]k3EpZQhrwro[/youtubehd]

Lack of overtaking skill on what appears to be a damp track. Thus wet grass.

"Car veered hard left at initial braking and I could not get it back."

At 0:16
[youtubehd]v1PDTL6jIp8&hd=1[/youtubehd]

Lost it under braking and hit a gravel trap? Does nothing to prove your point.

iRacing
"Started 8th, the initial start was good, however I dropped half a wheel on the grass at T1 which put me dead last (13th) and way behind."

At 0:15
[youtubehd]DnhS-IkwRiA&hd=1[/youtubehd]

Err, cool?

Fixed that up a bit for you. Heres some evidence that grass does not share the same properties as ice.
25 seconds


20 seconds


2:15


Whole video:

 

[tribolik]

Fixed that up a bit for you.

To be honest I only spin in GT5 (on the grass) if I turn my wheel over a certain degree and have my foot on the throttle/brake... it might be a bit overdone but I dont think its all that unrealistic (in the Real grip option at least) as I usually get away when going over the grass unless Im speeding... You could pick a lot of other stuff to critize but not this IMO.

EDIT: After watching that last video (most of it was gravel action to be more truth full) the few times they went into the grass they either spin or got away with it because they just kept they wheels straight an didnt accelarate... just like it happens on GT5... GT5 has many flaws but this one IMO is not one of them.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

GT5's grass is forgiving, if anything.

 

[MagpieRacer]

If its overdone that would constitute unrealistic, as realism would not be overdone to a degree. As has already been said, neither game gets it right, GT is too slippy and FM is too sticky. Videos showing people who lack ability spinning on club circuits and damp tracks is not proving a point. Neither is my post, all it proves is 2 people can find 5 videos showing to different sides of the same coin.

It's also a lame argument, I dunno about you guys but I usually stay on the grey bit.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

If its overdone that would constitute unrealistic, as realism would not be overdone to a degree. As has already been said, neither game gets it right, GT is too slippy and FM is too sticky. Videos showing people who lack ability spinning on club circuits and damp tracks is not proving a point. Neither is my post, all it proves is 2 people can find 5 videos showing to different sides of the same coin.

It's also a lame argument, I dunno about you guys but I usually stay on the grey bit.

The videos found represent GT5s grass behaviour very well although I think GT5s grass is slightly more forgiving than it should be.

Edit:

I thought I'd add this. Here is someone pushing a car near its limit. Getting in a spinning motion when you get one loaded rear wheel on grass is a consequence when you have to go flat out where everything is close to the ragged edge:

 

[Zer0]

Fixed that up a bit for you.

Denial mode?

I would love to see how FM4 performs in the same real life grass situations vs GT5. That's my point.

I don't see the problem with your vids. If you have played GT5 is not like you touch the grass and the car spins for itself.. if you know how to handle the situation and has the skills there is no problem staying on track.

Spinning because grass in GT5 = poor driving, not a rule.. like in RL.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Spinning because grass in GT5 = poor driving, not a rule.. like in RL.

I think this part becomes a big problem in these discussions. People see pros in real life making performance driving look easy and expect the same in-game with their skillset. Like for example some people will think some cars in GT5 are slippery while others will find the same cars are on rails and while driving the car more closer to the limit. The same goes with grass. From my experience of GT5, if any criticism could be made is that it can be maybe slightly forgiving like aiding lap time.

 

[Scaff]

I think this part becomes a big problem in these discussions. People see pros in real life making performance driving look easy and expect the same in-game with their skillset. Like for example some people will think some cars in GT5 are slippery while others will find the same cars are on rails and while driving the car more closer to the limit. The same goes with grass. From my experience of GT5, if any criticism could be made is that it can be maybe slightly forgiving like aiding lap time.

Funny that because I'm making my comparison of the unrealistic behaviour of grass in both FM4 and GT5 based on my real world experience, rather than a bunch of YouTube clips (of which more than enough to show control or loss can be found.

Neither title gets it right in comparison to the real world in my opinion, an opinion based on actual experience not watching a video clip.

I've also said that you get far more loss of grip from painted track areas in the cold or wet, and said that GT5 does this well. Guess that was missed in the rush to blindly defend based on videos.

A number of those videos also show circumstances above just dropping a tyre on the grass, but hey what does that matter.

Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Funny that because I'm making my comparison of the unrealistic behaviour of grass in both FM4 and GT5 based on my real world experience, rather than a bunch of YouTube clips (of which more than enough to show control or loss can be found.

Neither title gets it right in comparison to the real world in my opinion, an opinion based on actual experience not watching a video clip.

I've also said that you get far more loss of grip from painted track areas in the cold or wet, and said that GT5 does this well. Guess that was missed in the rush to blindly defend based on videos.

A number of those videos also show circumstances above just dropping a tyre on the grass, but hey what does that matter.

Scaff

So this comment you made below which from my experience of GT5 is pure rubbish. It is strange that your real world experience is contrary to what is shown in real world clips and of GT5. If you were to say GT5s grass is forgiving and should punish you more, then I can side with that but saying GT5s grass showing the degree of 'spinny death' more than real is strange because you can use that characteristic of GT5 to go faster and is maybe slightly forgiving than it really should be. Also the grass in GT5 allows you to still travel at high speeds without losing speed in road cars compared to being on tarmac from what I remember. Anyway I think this discrepancy you have with real world and GT5 grass is probably due to you not pushing cars as hard in real life as you probably do in video games. The fear factor and real world senses probably make you lift off when you about to go onto grass and straighten steering while in GT5, you probably have the tyres fully loaded while turning as if you just go onto grass in GT5 at speed, you will not result into spins.

If GT5s is a crude anti-cheat mechanism, why can it be used to aid speed while also punishing drivers asking too much of the car and their skill level just like in real life.

Really. I've put tyres on grass at tracks (in the real world) and very rarely does it result in spinny death, certainly not to the degree GT would have you believe.


And I've never seen icy grass on a sunny track with summer temperatures.

Neither titles uses these effects realistically, they are both crude anti-cheat mechanisms and would be better done away with in my opinion.

 

[Scaff]

So this comment you made below which from my experience of GT5 is pure rubbish. It is strange that your real world experience is contrary to what is shown in real world clips and of GT5

Ah I see, you believe I'm lying about this.

If you were to say GT5s grass is forgiving and should punish you more, then I can side with that but saying GT5s grass showing the degree of 'spinny death' more than real is strange because you can use that characteristic of GT5 to go faster and is maybe slightly forgiving than it really should be. Also the grass in GT5 allows you to still travel at high speeds without losing speed in road cars compared to being on tarmac from what I remember. Anyway I think this discrepancy you have with real world and GT5 grass is probably due to you not pushing cars as hard in real life as you probably do in video games. The fear factor and real world senses probably make you lift off when you about to go onto grass and straighten steering while in GT5, you probably have the tyres fully loaded while turning as if you just go onto grass in GT5 at speed, you will not result into spins

The real world will not always result in a spin when you drop a tyre on the grass, even with changes in throttle. Now not all grass in FM4 or GT5 behaves strangly, as I have repeatedly said, but patches certainly do. You can discount my opinion in favour of video clips (while ignoring others) all you want, it doesn't really bother me. However please don't make assumptions about what I have and haven't done.

if GT5s is a crude anti-cheat mechanism, why can it be used to aid speed while also punishing drivers asking too much of the car and their skill level just like in real life.

Maybe because its a crude tool that doesn't work, just like Forzas, good however of you to confirm that it doesn't behave realistically.


Scaff

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Ah I see, you believe I'm lying about this.

I didn’t say that. I think it is your difference in perception of the virtual and real world and probably not comparing like for like situations. This is mainly because it is strange for quite a lot of people to have that much in difference with grass behavior on the same game. You may well be comparing like for like situations but it is difficult to comprehend as I know the same does not happen for me in GT5 and there is videos showing GT5 being the opposite of what you seem to be describing of GT5s grass.

The real world will not always result in a spin when you drop a tyre on the grass, even with changes in throttle. Now not all grass in FM4 or GT5 behaves strangly, as I have repeatedly said, but patches certainly do. You can discount my opinion in favour of video clips (while ignoring others) all you want, it doesn't really bother me. However please don't make assumptions about what I have and haven't done.

This is the same in GT5, heck you can even cut tracks on grass with a lot of throttle if you wanted to without spinning. The grass edges on GT5 behave all the same I think. Also I’m not ignoring other video clips. It is not really direct assumptions but theories based on why your experience varies compared to others. I can only go by knowing what happens in GT5 for me and why the same doesn’t happen for you in GT5. I think this is a common thing when comparing virtual and real world. Different senses are required to be in-tune with what the car is telling you. The peoples opinions I would value the most is race drivers who are on top of their game in the real and virtual world. Someone like Fernando Alonso would be ideal provided he is not being sponsored by one game company to make comments about their games. GT Academy winners are probably more accessible though but people will then say bias. As with everything, it is also probably a good idea to get a few other top drivers and see if their opinions are shared amongst themselves.

As this is unlikely to happen, I think we can only speculate using videos and our own experiences of what should happen while taking into account real world physics. Videos of real world performance driving can help me understand a lot on what is happening and the same can be applied back into the game and this also helps me see where the game is wrong or right. It is much better for me take onboard videos over ones differing opinion of it, the exception like mentioned above is if the person giving the opinion is a top level virtual and real driver and my prediction would be they will less likely have differing opinions. I could be wrong in all of this and GT5s grass might not be so forgiving but so far no video posted above show behaviour that is different to what can happen in GT5.

Maybe because its a crude tool that doesn't work, just like Forzas, good however of you to confirm that it doesn't behave realistically.


Scaff

Maybe it is not meant to be a crude tool in the first place but actually an attempt to simulate reality unlike Forzas. Online races, GT5 uses time penalties for cutting corners and as realistic grass simulation they managed to for GT5’s release.

I think overall grass in GT5 is simulated reasonably well but they need to make it less forgiving to be realistic which is probably the opposite of the stance you hold on it. It is slight changes that are really needed before GT5 has a high level of grass simulation accuracy in my opinion. They are as follows:
1. Grass to slow you down when travelling on it at speed compared to tarmac.
2. Not to be able to use the grass edge as easily for performance aspects regarding tyre slip for turn in.

These issues could be fixed through PD simulating wear of grass as well and grass and mud not being so smooth and constant on edges of tracks while also the grass being made more slippery.

 

[Aftrbrnr]

I dont like the sticky grass. I cant remember which track it was ill have to check when im on forza again there is a part near a small chicane where one wheel lightly brushed the grass and my car almost stopped dead pretty annoying.

This is basically my biggest concern with sticky grass (and other surfaces), in that it works against you because it is "too sensitive", or its area of effect is too large.

Now I know GT5's off track physics aren't perfect either, but IMO it's a lot better just by virtue of not being sticky grass. This is like how some of you players say that a game not running at 60 FPS is deal breaker for you, for me that doesn't matter as much (as long as the game is not a Power point slide show, I'm fine with 30 FPS or just under). However, Forza's sticky grass is just on the edge of being a deal breaker for me in terms of realism.

I am aware that non-asphalt surfaces can slow vehicles down in real-life, but going off-track in Forza at times is like an invisible parachute was deployed. And as mentioned earlier, you just have to be barely off track (i.e. one tire on the grass) for it to kick in. The end result at times is your opponents unrealistically catch up or overtake you because of you just brushing the edge of the track when in a real-life situation it would not be that devastating of an ordeal. I also wonder if sticky grass influences how people drive online, meaning if people would rather remain on track even if it means a collision with another vehicle just to avoid the sticky grass or if people intentionally try to run their opponents off track into it. Than there's the fact that the AI doesn't seem to be affected by sticky grass, and I don't think there is really any way you can hand wave that one away.

A compromise maybe to adjust the way sticky grass works. Here are some suggestions:

- Moving the boundary of sticky grass from right at the edge of the asphalt to some where further off track to give lee way especially for those "one tire off the track" type situations.

- Only implementing it in areas where cheating can be done, a specific example is Laguna Seca's corkscrew where it seems to be exploitable in almost any racing game by driving off into the sand.

- Having an option to turn it on or off (and maybe even bumping up the rewards a little since it encourages you to drive cleanly and not exploit short cuts).

- Implementing it only in multiplayer, since this appears to be the biggest problem (Then again, people do cheat in single player so this point could be debatable.)

 

[MagpieRacer]

Denial mode?

I would love to see how FM4 performs in the same real life grass situations vs GT5. That's my point.

I don't see the problem with your vids. If you have played GT5 is not like you touch the grass and the car spins for itself.. if you know how to handle the situation and has the skills there is no problem staying on track.

Spinning because grass in GT5 = poor driving, not a rule.. like in RL.

I see you didnt read my other post. Here it is for you again.

If its overdone that would constitute unrealistic, as realism would not be overdone to a degree. As has already been said, neither game gets it right, GT is too slippy and FM is too sticky. Videos showing people who lack ability spinning on club circuits and damp tracks is not proving a point. Neither is my post, all it proves is 2 people can find 5 videos showing to different sides of the same coin.

It's also a lame argument, I dunno about you guys but I usually stay on the grey bit.

 

[Scaff]

I didn’t say that. I think it is your difference in perception of the virtual and real world and probably not comparing like for like situations. This is mainly because it is strange for quite a lot of people to have that much in difference with grass behavior on the same game. You may well be comparing like for like situations but it is difficult to comprehend as I know the same does not happen for me in GT5 and there is videos showing GT5 being the opposite of what you seem to be describing of GT5s grass.

You came very close to saying it and while I am not able to 100% confirm that what I have experienced in reality is the exact same circumstances in game, I can confirm that its a damn sight better comparison that just watching some videos and going "look all right to me".

This is the same in GT5, heck you can even cut tracks on grass with a lot of throttle if you wanted to without spinning. The grass edges on GT5 behave all the same I think. Also I’m not ignoring other video clips. It is not really direct assumptions but theories based on why your experience varies compared to others. I can only go by knowing what happens in GT5 for me and why the same doesn’t happen for you in GT5. I think this is a common thing when comparing virtual and real world. Different senses are required to be in-tune with what the car is telling you. The peoples opinions I would value the most is race drivers who are on top of their game in the real and virtual world. Someone like Fernando Alonso would be ideal provided he is not being sponsored by one game company to make comments about their games. GT Academy winners are probably more accessible though but people will then say bias. As with everything, it is also probably a good idea to get a few other top drivers and see if their opinions are shared amongst themselves.

As this is unlikely to happen, I think we can only speculate using videos and our own experiences of what should happen while taking into account real world physics. Videos of real world performance driving can help me understand a lot on what is happening and the same can be applied back into the game and this also helps me see where the game is wrong or right. It is much better for me take onboard videos over ones differing opinion of it, the exception like mentioned above is if the person giving the opinion is a top level virtual and real driver and my prediction would be they will less likely have differing opinions. I could be wrong in all of this and GT5s grass might not be so forgiving but so far no video posted above show behaviour that is different to what can happen in GT5.

So the only way we could possible discuss this would be to get top level drivers into the discussion (and yes academy drivers would have a bias), and no other form of experience is remotely useful (but basing it on watching videos is just fine).

Yep - I can see how that works for you.

Maybe it is not meant to be a crude tool in the first place but actually an attempt to simulate reality unlike Forzas. Online races, GT5 uses time penalties for cutting corners and as realistic grass simulation they managed to for GT5’s release.

I think overall grass in GT5 is simulated reasonably well but they need to make it less forgiving to be realistic which is probably the opposite of the stance you hold on it. It is slight changes that are really needed before GT5 has a high level of grass simulation accuracy in my opinion. They are as follows:
1. Grass to slow you down when travelling on it at speed compared to tarmac.
2. Not to be able to use the grass edge as easily for performance aspects regarding tyre slip for turn in.

These issues could be fixed through PD simulating wear of grass as well and grass and mud not being so smooth and constant on edges of tracks while also the grass being made more slippery.

GT5 does not do a good job of simulating grass at all, nor does FM4, they pretty much both just mess with the surface texture to make it a bit rougher and then throw down a change to the mU co-efficent in GT5 and FM4. With it being lower in GT and higher in FM4 (to the point is screws with the rolling resistance of the tyre).

Neither of them apply it consistently (which is my main issue), in FM4 for example its possible to drive well of track in places and not come across it and in other places its right on the track edge. GT5s issue is that it makes the grass too slippy in places (the first video above shows at least three cars cutting onto the grass without issue before the guy crashes himself - a crash that is as much the result of a heroic but daft overtaking attempt) and also allows you to cheat if you wish (as you have clearly said people do).

The physics of co-ef on grass (and any loose surface) is stupidly complex and neither FM4 nor GT5 get close to getting it right, a point I have consistently made.

Hell the only game on console that comes even remotely close (but is unfortunate poor in a lot of other areas) is Shift 2, who even went as far as to model tyre rim dig in if you attempt to turn sharply on grass.

However feel free to continue under the belief that GT5 is just fine in this area, personally I would rather discuss the issue with the hope that GT6 and FM5 get better in that area and also includes flags and penalties.


Scaff

 

[FyreandIce]

"race 2 in the MR2 championship at Cadwell Park July 2009. Starting from 3rd I missed a gear on Park straight and lost a number of places. Whilst pushing har to regain a position I put a wheel on the grass spinning out and crashing into the tyre wall."

At 3:06
[youtubehd]3m0Cb-k_zcc&hd=1[/youtubehd]

I didn't bother watching all the videos but in this one I saw about 8 other off track excursions that had no spinning in them and the offending one at the end wasn't even caused by the grass as the driver started losing control before he touched the grass. The grass only exacerbated the spin.

And as for Forza, ignoring the anti cheater grass, it reacts properly. You don't get put into an uncontrollable death spin every time you touch it a little bit but if you're pushing the car, drop the wrong wheel off at the wrong time, you will almost certainly swap ends.

 

[phillgt2002]

I didn't bother watching all the videos but in this one I saw about 8 other off track excursions that had no spinning in them and the offending one at the end wasn't even caused by the grass as the driver started losing control before he touched the grass. The grass only exacerbated the spin.

And as for Forza, ignoring the anti cheater grass, it reacts properly. You don't get put into an uncontrollable death spin every time you touch it a little bit but if you're pushing the car, drop the wrong wheel off at the wrong time, you will almost certainly swap ends.

"drop the wrong wheel off at the wrong time, you will almost certainly swap ends" Took it out of my mouth.

 

[cuco33]

I was doing some rivals hot laps with traffic in the Audi R18 on Sebring and on one occasion I spun out after putting my right wheels on the rumble strip just after turn 7, that slight right bend. I saved the replay so just need to edit the movie and upload it. I believe I was in 2nd gear peaking the massive torque the R18 has and clipping this edge the car got squirly and the grip on the left side forced the car to veer to the right.

I have to say though, I love Sebring and am a big Audi fan... that rivals event = <3 and I just came across it

 

[Raitziger]

Car with tyres on grass on one side reacts depending what you do in that situation and is car equipped with LSD. Yes it will spin if you hit the brakes and that is result of grip difference. Road cars are more controllable than race cars in this situation. Race cars use slicks and other tyres are on grass and others on sticky tarmac; nice twisting torque.

Also most of the cars on those videos have rear biased weight distribution which generates faster snap when rear looses traction. I have not noticed GT5 to be especially snappy on grass but enough that I avoid going there

 

[Scaff]

Car with tyres on grass on one side reacts depending what you do in that situation and is car equipped with LSD. Yes it will spin if you hit the brakes and that is result of grip difference. Road cars are more controllable than race cars in this situation. Race cars use slicks and other tyres are on grass and others on sticky tarmac; nice twisting torque.

Also most of the cars on those videos have rear biased weight distribution which generates faster snap when rear looses traction. I have not noticed GT5 to be especially snappy on grass but enough that I avoid going there

Yep, grass is complex stuff when it comes to how if affects a car when you cut a corner, hence my belief that neither get it right. That said I still feel that both titles need a proper penalty system in place rather that 'fixes' and getting grass right is something that can wait, as plenty of other stuff needs work first.

In addition while I understand what T10 say, in that they use it to help ensure that the first person over the finish line in a race (particularly on-line) is indeed the winner, and that they don't want the first past the post to then lose following a time penalty. I have to say that personally I don't agree, flags and penalties would be my preferred option and would be fair to all.


Scaff