FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)
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Scaff
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And that has exactly what to do with this discussion?
Because if your trying to link the differences in American and Japanese car design ethos to console sim titles then I'm going to roll out superior American donut manufacturing technology, as it has just about as much relevance.
Oh and you might want to remember that one of the leading lights in Japanese car design and technology was saved from extinction by a French company, was recently run by a South American and has its one of its main design studio based in America. Not quite as 'Japanese' as it first seems now is it.
Scaff
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MagpieRacer
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RE: Tyre modelling, this is a short, poor quality video I made intending to show the guys here who have not played Forza, the kind of OSD we have for seeing what the tyres are doing, also, shows off the raw sound quite nicely too. Firstly, I apologise for quality as I dont have a capture card and secondly my bad driving.
Also, puts a good case forward for why Forza is more fun.
Also, puts a good case forward for why Forza is more fun.
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Scaff
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What he said he wanted to do was make Forza accessible, and with the driver aids it is just that, in the exact same way that with all the aids on GT is accessible. However turn all the aids off and get to the core of both and start comparing them.
That you seem rather reluctant to do
You don't seem to be able to prove a lot, despite many wild claims being made on your part.
Lets start with realistic grip, can you please explain then why the MINI Cooper S and Corvette in GT5 have exactly the same lateral-g figure when using the same tyre type? That's certainly not correct and I would love to here you explain why that is realistic.
Your also going to have to expand on realistic drift and wind effect. As standalone comments they mean very little. Why is 'drift' in GT5 so realistic and what exactly do you mean by 'wind effect'.
When you answer please remember I am looking for an detailed explanation of how this correlates with real world physics and vehicle dynamics, something that you have utterly failed to do so far.
Scaff
MagpieRacer
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"Speaking to the site, developer Turn 10 revealed it's going to even more ridiculous lengths to make sure its racing sequel is the most realistic on the market"
"Turn 10's teamed up with tyre manufacturer Pirelli to create the "most up-to-date simulation of how modern tires grip or slip in a variety of racing conditions"."
Mmm, sounds real like simcade. Realistic grip? Don't make me laugh, I am not going to keep repeating other people on this stuff. Scaff has summed up most of it already, you just choose to ignore it.
Oh and you couldn't prove it anyway because A) You can't and B) GT5 won't let you.
Ditto on the guy who said cars in GT5 with no aids are more difficult to drive than in real-life. I'm not sure how it is with a wheel since I haven't tried it, but GT5 is incredibly difficult to play with ABS off on a controller (and I have mapped the brake and throttle to L2 and R2), the brakes seem to lock up the moment you apply some pressure to the controls. Forza seems a bit better, but still a tad on the oversensitive side.
I recently drove the '95 Cobra R in F4 without aids on (except for ABS since the real-life car has that), I was able to go around some corners with full throttle applied and the controller cranked to one direction (the equivalent of full wheel left or right) even though in real-life this would have spun this or any other moderately powered RWD car out. The only way I find this is not true is it is a hairpin, but then again that is pretty much a U-turn almost and is bound to happen. This isn't a game killer for me but more of a pet peeve I should note.
Neither GT5 or Forza have that great of AIs, but Forza's AI has its weird moments. As some people here have mentioned, the cars seem to go off track at times which IMO wouldn't be a problem if it didn't seem like the drivers just fell asleep at the wheel. For example, if an AI car goes off the track at a corner, it doesn't seem like the driver accidently over shot it but rather he/she was still going full throttle shifting gears and suddenly while in the sand pit realized they've gone off track where as most people would realize this shortly before the corner.
I also find it is very difficult in Forza to go a race without some sort of contact to the point I am actually very proud of myself if I have a clean race. In GT5, it's the other way around where contact with the AI is the irregularity. It's almost like the AI drivers in Forza seem to gravitate to you when you get closer to them, which makes passing without contact difficult. I try every race to not get the stupid caution sign up on the screen (triangle with exclamation mark), but it is really a challenge.
However, one very good thing about Forza's AI is on higher difficulties it is a challenge even if your car is heavily modified. I attribute this to having better restrictions for types of cars and power limits implemented. In GT5, the AI is very docile and it seems like at times you have to intentionally drive a car worse than the AI opponents to give yourself a challenge. It also doesn't help that races either don't have restrictions (a lot of A-spec races that shipped with the game) or the restrictions are lax enough it is still possible to overpower and outperform your opponents if you choose (most seasonals except for a few). On the flip side (and I have seen other Forza players express the same thing) Forza on its most difficult setting the drivers are almost inhuman to the point they react in ways we as normal people can't match.
I recently drove the '95 Cobra R in F4 without aids on (except for ABS since the real-life car has that), I was able to go around some corners with full throttle applied and the controller cranked to one direction (the equivalent of full wheel left or right) even though in real-life this would have spun this or any other moderately powered RWD car out. The only way I find this is not true is it is a hairpin, but then again that is pretty much a U-turn almost and is bound to happen. This isn't a game killer for me but more of a pet peeve I should note.
Neither GT5 or Forza have that great of AIs, but Forza's AI has its weird moments. As some people here have mentioned, the cars seem to go off track at times which IMO wouldn't be a problem if it didn't seem like the drivers just fell asleep at the wheel. For example, if an AI car goes off the track at a corner, it doesn't seem like the driver accidently over shot it but rather he/she was still going full throttle shifting gears and suddenly while in the sand pit realized they've gone off track where as most people would realize this shortly before the corner.
I also find it is very difficult in Forza to go a race without some sort of contact to the point I am actually very proud of myself if I have a clean race. In GT5, it's the other way around where contact with the AI is the irregularity. It's almost like the AI drivers in Forza seem to gravitate to you when you get closer to them, which makes passing without contact difficult. I try every race to not get the stupid caution sign up on the screen (triangle with exclamation mark), but it is really a challenge.
However, one very good thing about Forza's AI is on higher difficulties it is a challenge even if your car is heavily modified. I attribute this to having better restrictions for types of cars and power limits implemented. In GT5, the AI is very docile and it seems like at times you have to intentionally drive a car worse than the AI opponents to give yourself a challenge. It also doesn't help that races either don't have restrictions (a lot of A-spec races that shipped with the game) or the restrictions are lax enough it is still possible to overpower and outperform your opponents if you choose (most seasonals except for a few). On the flip side (and I have seen other Forza players express the same thing) Forza on its most difficult setting the drivers are almost inhuman to the point they react in ways we as normal people can't match.
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I'm going to have to pick you up on this. We really need more info, what corners are you talking about, what gear were you in, how many revs, what speed were you doing? A RWD car, no matter how powerful, will not always spin out under full throttle. And your claim that this only happens at hairpins is untrue. This has already been discussed and disproved here.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6599121#post6599121
- 770
Fair enough, I should clarify I'm not saying that this would only happen in hairpins, but similar conditions. Do note I'm not trying to make RWD cars as some sort of uncontrollable beast, but at the same time they're known to be unforgiven if driven in certain manners. I'm working nights now, and I'll try to get back to your question, I was driving the car on Laguna Seca and I was actually going put down the name of the corner though I need a map as I'm not familiar with the corner names.
I do want to say I'm not pointing this out as a way to bash Forza subtly and make GT5 look good, this is a flaw that I perceive (as in I think it's wrong, though it may not be fact).
I only drive with simulation steering after finding arcade steering really wonky (once again, with a controller).
There seems to be a bit of contention on this issue. On the one hand, it is really convenient as you don't have to do what many do in GT5 and have multiples of one type of car as a result of permanent mods (the ability to change paint and livery without costing in-game credits really helps also). On the flip-side, this seems to really clash with the realism of the game as there are clearly some mods that cannot be removed, such as boring and stroking an engine or acid-dipping the body and chassis. If I'm not mistaken (I could be wrong), I think even Shift 2 has some mods that can't be undone if performed. Either way, I highly doubt this issue will be a major deal breaker for someone deciding between Forza or Gran Turismo.
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- 1,142
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I've seen fully tubbed drag cars be brought back to stock, so I know it is realistic. All acid dipping the chassis/ body does is remove rust/ paint/ etc. from it. You can still repaint it the stock color with stock emblems, seals, etc.
As for the engine, the way I figure a different block was used, while the stock block was kept somewhere safe.
As for the engine, the way I figure a different block was used, while the stock block was kept somewhere safe.
Scaff
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On a chassis I would agree, but I've seen plenty of acid dipped bodyshells that have done more than just remove paint/rust.
The BTCC is a classic example, the original bodyshell fro the donor car must be used, so the teams acid dip them away to as thin as they can get them. Acid dips (and sandblasting) also remove or reduce weld seams, so these kind of changes are difficult to undo.
I suppose you could replace the entire bodyshell, but not exactly a quick or cheap option.
Scaff
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True, the thinning of the body shell is irreversible, but weld seams, while difficult, can be redone. It's quite amazing what can be done to old vehicles with the proper tools, copies of factory blueprints, and a lot of know-how. I am only talking about steel bodies, as I have little experiece with fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc.
When you start talking about doing things like this, none of it is quick or cheap.
With respect to that, I know the "restore car to stock" tickets were recently implemented in GT5 I think it would be a be realistic to have the car restored for a hefty price as 88FoxBody pointed out it can be done for a big price.
I also heard the old '60s and '70s SCCA Trans Am race cars (American pony cars in particular) were much more fragile as a result of acid dipping, which is another irreversible effect of it.
I also heard the old '60s and '70s SCCA Trans Am race cars (American pony cars in particular) were much more fragile as a result of acid dipping, which is another irreversible effect of it.
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Due to the latest February FM4 KOT 'Rampage' Rivals event, hot lap of a stock 2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8, I tried replicating my wheel (and pad) lap times in GT5. Here's what I did, all assists off in both games:
GT5 = 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8. Same weight and distribution. Adjusted power to match that of the 2009 car and FM4.
- Default tires are Sports Hard. My best lap on Laguna Seca was: 1:45.769
- Upgraded tires to Racing Softs. My best lap on Laguna Seca was: 1:42.643
I know I can do better in both but in my "limit to 10 laps, take best lap time" this is what I got.
In FM4, my official rivals lap time is 1:50.663 w/pad. I did just slightly slower with wheel (1:50.7xx) but I know it's not my best, just best lap time that I did so far in a stock SRT8 Challenger.
I then took the car from my garage, in stock form, but slapped racing slicks on it and went for 10 laps on Laguna Seca. My best lap time of 10 laps was 1:46.841.. again, not my absolute best but a pretty consistent and fast time.
In FM4 it feels more real to me overall but I like both games and enjoyed these back to back comparisons. On this track there are 2 areas that have noticeable differences (not the only ones but the biggest observations in my book). In GT5 on both tire compounds, when you are on full throttle passing the finish line going up the hill, by the bridge, you can maintain full throttle and until you brake hard before turn 2. Essentially I can be full throttle through turn 1 (which I barely call a turn lol). In FM4, on both compounds (racing slicks is a little easier though), I have to feather the throttle and be more precise in steering going through turn 1, otherwise I'll upset the stock SRT8 and could result in the death shakes or spin out the car. There seems to be a slight dip by turn 1 in FM4 that isn't there in GT5.
The other area is through the corkscrew. In GT5 on both tire compounds, after I turn into the corkscrew I can essentially go full throttle through the rest of it without issue. In FM4 on both tire compounds I can not. I have to feather the throttle a bit, more so on default tires.
In my mucking around FM4 with the 'same' car is slower on racing slicks and feels more real than GT5 on default sports hards. The biggest issue I was having in GT5 was 2 turns that if I grazed the corner would send me spinning out as if I'm on ice.
GT5 = 2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8. Same weight and distribution. Adjusted power to match that of the 2009 car and FM4.
- Default tires are Sports Hard. My best lap on Laguna Seca was: 1:45.769
- Upgraded tires to Racing Softs. My best lap on Laguna Seca was: 1:42.643
I know I can do better in both but in my "limit to 10 laps, take best lap time" this is what I got.
In FM4, my official rivals lap time is 1:50.663 w/pad. I did just slightly slower with wheel (1:50.7xx) but I know it's not my best, just best lap time that I did so far in a stock SRT8 Challenger.
I then took the car from my garage, in stock form, but slapped racing slicks on it and went for 10 laps on Laguna Seca. My best lap time of 10 laps was 1:46.841.. again, not my absolute best but a pretty consistent and fast time.
In FM4 it feels more real to me overall but I like both games and enjoyed these back to back comparisons. On this track there are 2 areas that have noticeable differences (not the only ones but the biggest observations in my book). In GT5 on both tire compounds, when you are on full throttle passing the finish line going up the hill, by the bridge, you can maintain full throttle and until you brake hard before turn 2. Essentially I can be full throttle through turn 1 (which I barely call a turn lol). In FM4, on both compounds (racing slicks is a little easier though), I have to feather the throttle and be more precise in steering going through turn 1, otherwise I'll upset the stock SRT8 and could result in the death shakes or spin out the car. There seems to be a slight dip by turn 1 in FM4 that isn't there in GT5.
The other area is through the corkscrew. In GT5 on both tire compounds, after I turn into the corkscrew I can essentially go full throttle through the rest of it without issue. In FM4 on both tire compounds I can not. I have to feather the throttle a bit, more so on default tires.
In my mucking around FM4 with the 'same' car is slower on racing slicks and feels more real than GT5 on default sports hards. The biggest issue I was having in GT5 was 2 turns that if I grazed the corner would send me spinning out as if I'm on ice.
I think gt5 has the most realistic physic interms of cornering speed and top end speed. Also gt5 maybe the best simulator interms of getting accurate in game circuit times vs real life circuit times. Many say forza4 has the better physic engine, many say Iracing has better physics how do they know? The other so call simulator has nothing to measure gforces. I did researches on lateral acceleration for many cars and gt5 is the only simulator I see with instruments to measure lateral grip. What I found is that some of the cars are setup right in the first place so they corner faster than they should. From my experiments supercars need the comfort soft tires and no other mods to get the closer to real gforce. Sports cars need comfort medium. Racing cars need racing hard. Gt5 allow you to adjust downforce, suspension and weight, adjusting these can help you get a more accurate setup to the real car. The g meter can help you find the best tires and downforce to simulate the real gforce. Also I think you should add weight to simulate the weight of a driver. I may have said too much but I want to make it clear why I think gt5 is and can be the best driving simulator. I know it does have the best engine sounds or the best damage machanical or cosmetics but I am talking about best in giving real performance.
Scaff
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Your research is way off in that case, given that Forza (as in every single one of them) provides the ability to lateral and longitudinal g-force in real time and replay. It also shows the g figure across those two plains as well, not just as two values, in addition to providing far more data.
As well as a fair bit else as well:
And that not all of them.
Keep in mind that the more basic g-meter in GT5 has been used to show that cars that should have very different lat-g figures on the same tyre type actual have the exact same figure (such as a MINI Cooper and a Corvette).
Scaff
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The more you say that, and the more you continue to refer to Forza 4 as the "so-called simulator", and not to mention your desire to keep referring to GT5 as the most realistic this and that when you have absolutely no basis of comparison... you lose credibility.
I'm not even going to acknowledge the bit about iRacing because that, in and of itself, is absolutely stupid.
I'm not even going to acknowledge the bit about iRacing because that, in and of itself, is absolutely stupid.
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FyreandIce
In 4 days. (information, we aren't talking about my life. ;D )
Terronium-12
Ok, tell me why forza is better in simulation and im gonna tell you why GT5 is better
I have many proof at home and im gonna prove it...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9JwXaSRq9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Forza is clearly bad in simulation, look, it's not real how he lose grip, the drive probably disabled all aids yet. in forza, the driver doesn't change speed and yet it did not seem to be in automatic
And GT5 has record the real LFA sound
the role of the suspensions, G meter and more ... This is what I'll show you once at home.
Forza is clearly bad in simulation, look, it's not real how he lose grip, the drive probably disabled all aids yet. in forza, the driver doesn't change speed and yet it did not seem to be in automatic
And GT5 has record the real LFA sound
the role of the suspensions, G meter and more ... This is what I'll show you once at home.
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- thelvynau
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soheibV12
I dont know that video hardly proves it.
If this is the kind of proof you will be showing us I doubt it will be conclusive.
I am trying to see where he loses grip to the point where its considered unrealistic perhaps im missing something ill have to have another look.
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Let's tackle this individually, shall we?
Might want to avoid statements like this when comparing two cars across two different games as one of the first questions that you'll be presented with is "How would you know, have you driven it before?" It's also worth pointing that both games have a lower grip/traction multiplier than the real-life vehicle. Also, a rear-wheel drive vehicle with well over 500 horses shouldn't be understeering, as it is in GT5, with the accelerator applied at near maximum unless the suspension (and tires) just don't work.
You know, I was playing GT5 earlier and I took out the Aventador and trotted around Spa for a bit with no aids, bar ABS. I went full throttle through Pouhoun, and guess what - it just understeered straight into the barricade. A 700 horse 4WD vehicle that simply would not oversteer or even powerslide no matter how much opposite lock; it would only break loose if I engaged the e-brake.
Try that in Forza on any track and tell me how that goes.
I'll give you this one - the LFA certainly sounds better in GT5. Notice the use of "sounds better" and not "sounds more realistic".
If that's going to be apart of your presentation, you're already losing steam.
I've got my own test for you: go into GT5 and purposely mis-tune the vehicle and report back how that's changed the characteristics of the car compared to normal. Then, go to your friends house and do the same in Forza 4. Tell me which one feels more realistic in that regard and why.
Might want to avoid statements like this when comparing two cars across two different games as one of the first questions that you'll be presented with is "How would you know, have you driven it before?" It's also worth pointing that both games have a lower grip/traction multiplier than the real-life vehicle. Also, a rear-wheel drive vehicle with well over 500 horses shouldn't be understeering, as it is in GT5, with the accelerator applied at near maximum unless the suspension (and tires) just don't work.
You know, I was playing GT5 earlier and I took out the Aventador and trotted around Spa for a bit with no aids, bar ABS. I went full throttle through Pouhoun, and guess what - it just understeered straight into the barricade. A 700 horse 4WD vehicle that simply would not oversteer or even powerslide no matter how much opposite lock; it would only break loose if I engaged the e-brake.
Try that in Forza on any track and tell me how that goes.
I'll give you this one - the LFA certainly sounds better in GT5. Notice the use of "sounds better" and not "sounds more realistic".
If that's going to be apart of your presentation, you're already losing steam.
I've got my own test for you: go into GT5 and purposely mis-tune the vehicle and report back how that's changed the characteristics of the car compared to normal. Then, go to your friends house and do the same in Forza 4. Tell me which one feels more realistic in that regard and why.
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Scaff
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First I would like you to let us know exactly what your real world driving experience is, then I would like you to explain why its not realistic. Referring not to the GT5 video side but to the real world.
The FM4 video clearly shows a change in speed at the point of the tank slapper, however without the full telemetry (which GT5 can't provide in the same detail) you don't know how much. Guess what I plan to do.
And T10 recorded what? A cat?
Can't wait, and when you do explain to me why suspension tuning in GT5 is backwards in regard to ride height (and others but we will start with that one).
Oh can I also clarify, you are saying that GT5 is more realistic that iRacing.
Scaff
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