FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)
- Thread starter Scaff
- 8,743 comments
- 540,764 views
- 28,352
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
I'm resisting the urge to call you an idiot right now (Sorry, Scaff).
Are you serious? Too much grip in FM4 and then you mention compared to real life and drift? As opposed to GT5's drift mode where you just point and shoot? Or, how you can launch off the line in practically any car with no aids in the straightest of lines with no torque steer?
I'm not even going to bother with the video because it's pointless.
Are you serious? Too much grip in FM4 and then you mention compared to real life and drift? As opposed to GT5's drift mode where you just point and shoot? Or, how you can launch off the line in practically any car with no aids in the straightest of lines with no torque steer?
I'm not even going to bother with the video because it's pointless.
- 3,195
- tribolik
- 530
- prymet1me
I really stopped responding to the GT Fans that have no interest in actually discussing both games but came here to bash a game they look at youtube videos of or played the demo...oh yea and I forgot, also the ones who play it at a friends house.
Makes me wonder why they come here to even discuss a game they obviously have no interest of. 90% of this website is dedicated to GT yet they navigate all the way to a Forza thread to talk about a game they have no interest in.
- 1,142
- Clayton/ NC/ US
- Sanderson1981
I was playing Forza 1 last night (yeah, you read that right) and one thing I like about that game is that you can completely remove all the mods you have done to a vehicle to revert it back to stock. That's one thing that's always pissed me off about GT, that with some modications, you're stuck with 'em. I don't know why they do this, it's not like it's unrealstic to revert a vehicle back to stock.
I don't know if it's still this way in FM4, but I hope it is.
I don't know if it's still this way in FM4, but I hope it is.
- 530
- prymet1me
This has not changed, you can revert back to default and still save multiple setups for the same car.
- 28,352
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
- 770
Really?
Take any high power rear wheel drive car, floor it from a standing start and let the car go where it wants to than tell me what happens.
Done that? Good!
Now tell me how you some how believe GT5s physics are better than real life and Forza 4...
This is what happens in real life (skip to 0:35 seconds)
This is what happens in Forza
Videos like this just remind me of how terrible GTs sound is.
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- 3,195
- tribolik
I cant see the point of the first video... is its to show how FM4 physics relate to a car with twisted chassis and F%$ suspension?
As for his video I find it quite amusing the trouble he must have had to make GT5 sound as good or better than FM4...
- 770
- 713
- UK
Not to mention the apparently 'fair' video uses an external camera which is much further away in Forza and only compares carefully selected cars..
But I agree, it's good proof that not all cars in GT5 sound like vacuum cleaners, but it shoots itself in the foot with all the glaring inaccacies,
I don't actually mind the sound of some cars in GT5,but you have to be insane if you can't see the consistent and more accurate audio across the board in FM4 is what GT6 needs. To aim for.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,745
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Please do the following
The steps are easy
- Take a Cobra
- Go to any track
- Find a flat part and stop
- Hold the brake down
- Apply full throttle
- Keep the steering straight
- Release the brake
- Keep the steering straight
- Come back here and tell us what happens
- Explain exactly why this is correct in terms of real world physics.
I expect the answer to reflect how GT models tyre deformation, suspension modelling and load transfer. I don't want to even mention Forza, I want you to compare the GT5 results with what you believe should happen in the real world and explain any discrepancies.
Scaff
- 28,352
- Brooklyn, NY
- KR_Viper
- I Renown I
As if you were going to anyway.
Once again, resisting the urge...
Once again, resisting the urge...
- 6,838
- Europe
- GTP_Slim
- PzR Slim
Can I make a suggestion. If this member can't or will not carry out this test they are banned from posting in this thread. I'm sick and tired of people making wild claims and then simply not backing them up. The vast majority of us, who lean towards one game surprisingly, have backed up our claims numerous times with video evidence and detailed descriptions and comparisons of the claims we make.
It's got to the stage where there is no actual discussion going on anymore. I'd be more than happy to discuss the failings of FM4 with those who prefer GT5 if they were able to accept what FM4 does right and what GT5 does wrong. Then we really could have a discussion. Currently all we appear to be doing is refuting the wild claims made by some with our own measured opinion and a substantial amount of evidence.
MagpieRacer
Premium
- 17,452
- Wymondham, Norfolk
- Seagull_Racer
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,745
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Unfortunately no, as long as a members posts do not break the AUP then they are free to post, and to be honest I personally would not welcome that level of censorship on posts.
However the member in question would do well to re-read the posting requirements contained in the first post in this thread, as a number of posts have come very close to presenting opinion as fact.
Scaff
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
^ Agreed.
Thumbscrews should be ok though.....
Thumbscrews should be ok though.....
- 1,732
- cuco33
Unfortunately here, and all over the web, that just won't go over well. But I'll bite. I love both franchises, both are my top 2 racing franchises of all time, sim/sim-cade/arcade combined, so I try to be unbiased in my posts and views. I don't go on "playing at a friends house" or be an expert from gamestop kiosks
And I do point out the pros and cons of both.
Recently I made a post on another board I'm on about the cons specific to FM4, maybe a little of my touch was thrown in there but here's the list I came up with so far and I made some additional edits now
:- lack of 3rd party wheel/pedal sets, which we got A LOT more options with FM4 than past Forzas (I <3 my Fanatec CSR wheel/CSRE pedals),
- locked out of 3rd party wheels, MS is mostly to blame, not T10/FM4 but see above, and to a degree we can say Logitech/Thrustmaster/etc are also to blame as they didn't conform to MS's demands for that chip as well,
- a lot of carry over in terms of cars, including DLC that came in FM3, few new cars to the franchise,
- a lot of carry over in terms of tracks, few new tracks added to FM4 and I'm fine with carried over cars but I wished we saw more new tracks,
- a lot of carry over upgrades section, i.e VERY few new wheels added to the wheel upgrade section, lots of modding has been very similar to what you could do before, albeit some extreme cases of engine/drivetrain swaps were in fact removed,
- a lot of carry over with tuning, tuning menus are practically the same (if it ain't broke, why fix it?),
- no dynamic time, and no the few tracks that get different times of day for certain 2 heat races is not equivalent. It still is nice to have, but not the same as dynamic time of day even if GT5 does it on so few tracks (3?),
- no weather, with some PGR folks on board now I thought we'd see this added for FM4 but nope.. maybe FM5?,
- no offroad courses, especially since there's many offroad specific vehicles included on disk and via DLC,
- no pit animations,
- endurance races from past Forza games are gone, best you can do is set up online an 2.4hr race,
- their history of handling exclusive content, from LCE/VIP cars opened to public later for $ to FM3UC's exclusive cars to preorder cars specific to retailers which are now available for purchase 3 months post launch, but I hate exclusive content that normal buyers can't access so might be a personal gripe than anything. I'm fine if it's modded/tuned/painted cars but not specifically cars entirely,
- paint livery issues on some cars, yes the "stickers" aren't perfect. The Audi R18 from the last DLC you can't paint on the black areas, some cars have areas that you can't put vinyls over, some bugs like mirror effects of vinyl groups appear on other panels, you still can't put vinyls on windows, I've personally noticed sometimes where in hood view that vinyls on the hood have a glitch in it being nothing but a bunch of jagged lines flickering away on some contours of the hood,
- continued carry over of some car bugs from past Forza games, STILL not resolved (i.e. mk4 Jetta/Bora has same cluster issue since FM2!)
- no open wheel cars/visible "open" suspensions, from F1 vehicles to a Caparo T1 to Caterham 7,
- no Porsche, and still I say a big and massive 🤬 to EA for that one,
- lighting engine, which is VASTLY improved from the past (and I do mean VASTLY) is still not on par with GT5,
- server hiccups, there's been issues with servers for some time either related to server load or whatnot, you either get lag spikes racing online, your My Forza, storefront and AH areas comes down a few times per month, etc.. I had less issues online in FM2 and it seems to have gotten a bit worse with each iteration,
- the best one!! The over aggressiveness of AI going into turn 1 isn't my problem as they are trying to keep in front of you and will trade paint. It's the issue when they sometimes forget they are racing and forget to brake, like this:
or this:
and I have more examples of this behavior which I've noticed happened mostly in World Tour mode (don't recall in events list, AI seems to be harder and different)
If I make a similar con list about GT, a meltdown will happen. Say positive things about Forza and the legion comes out the woodwork. Folks... play both games. They compliment each other well. They both have pros and cons. If you like one game, you'll like the other, it's that simple!!
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- 1,019
- Germantown WI
- FuzzyFassbender
- FuzzyFassbender
I haven't taken the Cobra in FM4 for a spin until seeing your testing video; glad I did as it is a blast to drive.
I find FM4 provides a more visceral driving experience especially in older cars. It simulates body roll, torque, vibrations very well.
Some naysayers claim that FM cars are too easy to drive or have too much grip; I actually think, with all aids off (0 for traction & ABS), GT5 is too unnaturally hard under certain conditions. Way too easy under hard acceleration (as burnout example illustrates) but MUCH too touchy on turns when accelerating or braking. Harder does not mean closer to IRL - it's actually feels more arcade. Maybe some of those that prefer GT5 don't drive yet or have never driven anything with some real horsepower. I can find things I like in GT but must wade through the bad to find them.
First of all, IMO this video does more to illustrate the sound inaccuracies of GT5. A few of the cars sound good but most are soo far off it's funny. Also, I wonder why the person creating this video idles most of the FM4 cars off the line; almost as if they are trying to hide the nice sound of the high horsepower FM4 cars under a hard launch.
Those that don't own both games seem to based their opinions on YouTube videos, hearsay, or brief testing in a store kiosk (or "...tried at a friends house...), or compare a controller experience to their wheel setup.
I am fortunate to own both consoles and a wheel that is cross-platform compatible. I don't have a lot of time to game so FM gets my attention and satisfies my virtual racing fix for now. I will wait for GT6 as 5 does not do it for me anymore.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,745
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
I've amended your list a little to remove a minor AUP issue, however in terms of the items raised on the list I would say that its more that fair.
The only one that doesn't really bother me is the AI making a mistake every now and then and ending up off track, at least it shows some variety. What I hate is when they rejoin the track with almost zero regard to other cars.
Scaff
The only one that doesn't really bother me is the AI making a mistake every now and then and ending up off track, at least it shows some variety. What I hate is when they rejoin the track with almost zero regard to other cars.
Scaff
- 40,880
But... I like that...
I mean, for sure there are occasions where it is a bit "random" (so I'm not sure if it is done on purpose), but I actually thought that was a bit clever. I'd be lying if I hadn't seen that on occasion in GT5 (from people I know are good drivers, too), and I'd be lying even more if I said that I hadn't been paying so much attention to who I was racing that I missed braking zones entirely myself. It reminds me of the AI doing something similar in the TOCA games, though not quite as polished.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Thanks scaff and I'll continue saying it... a big :MAJOR_COMBINATIONS_OF_CENSORED_WORDS: to you EA!! and I say this for both GT and Forza... cuz I really want Porsche in these games
Well, it's not a big problem about their overaggressiveness that at times you go 'what the hell!' and restart the race. It's the times that you're creeping up on them, inching closer, driving closer and closer to the edge of grip, and then they just run off course forgetting to brake before a turn.
I too have missed braking points but in World Tour, around my "3-4" season is when it happened a lot. Lately though it hasn't but I got stuck on 1 race, I think I have 4 events to do and I'm done but been mostly mucking around with events list, building cars, painting, practice runs, etc more than anything.
- 1,019
- Germantown WI
- FuzzyFassbender
- FuzzyFassbender
Yes the FM4 AI does make some stupid moves once in a while but it's that unpredicabilty that makes things more interesting. And it's not that I haven't seen stupid moves IRL racing. In GT5, I almost always know exactly the path the AI will take and I don't think I ever seen them make any mistakes.
- 5,768
- Anoka, MN
cuco33: I'm going to respond to each of your qualms about FM4, since I agree with many of them.
- lack of 3rd party wheel/pedal sets, which we got A LOT more options with FM4 than past Forzas (I <3 my Fanatec CSR wheel/CSRE pedals),
- locked out of 3rd party wheels, MS is mostly to blame, not T10/FM4 but see above, and to a degree we can say Logitech/Thrustmaster/etc are also to blame as they didn't conform to MS's demands for that chip as well,
Don't use a wheel, however I agree that there needs to be a better selection. As you said though, it's not exactly T10's fault.
- a lot of carry over in terms of cars, including DLC that came in FM3, few new cars to the franchise,
I don't mind this too much since we are getting ~70 new cars as DLC. Biggest issue in my eyes is the whole "Unicorn" BS. I really wish they would have gone with special versions of the cars already in the game, especially the higher priced cars that you could still purchase if you had the credits.
- a lot of carry over in terms of tracks, few new tracks added to FM4 and I'm fine with carried over cars but I wished we saw more new tracks,
Agree, not to mention they even removed a few tracks from FM3. Also how they reuse the same races numerous times, while barely using others.
- a lot of carry over upgrades section, i.e VERY few new wheels added to the wheel upgrade section, lots of modding has been very similar to what you could do before, albeit some extreme cases of engine/drivetrain swaps were in fact removed,
Agree. I really hope for the next game they add more wheels, especially since they've left out some great ones. I also wish they would add more bodykits, especially to vehicles that don't have any now. Heck, they could make a few of their own if none exist for the real car.
- a lot of carry over with tuning, tuning menus are practically the same (if it ain't broke, why fix it?),
I don't mind that they have the same layout, since it makes knowing where the sections are easy if you're just starting the game. However, I think it would be cool if they had an animation of the component that you were adjusting, perhaps showing how your changes affect that component.
- no dynamic time, and no the few tracks that get different times of day for certain 2 heat races is not equivalent. It still is nice to have, but not the same as dynamic time of day even if GT5 does it on so few tracks (3?),
Perhaps the next game will be able to utilize the XB720 and allow for dynamic time on all tracks.
- no weather, with some PGR folks on board now I thought we'd see this added for FM4 but nope.. maybe FM5?,
Weather I don't care for as much, though I know how some want it.
- no offroad courses, especially since there's many offroad specific vehicles included on disk and via DLC,
Offroad may involve them creating a modified suspension engine, which may not seem important to them at this time. However, I agree about how they are adding off-road type vehicles, so some sort of dirt track would be fun to have.
- no pit animations,
Something I find a bit trivial since it creates extra work for something that isn't important overall.
- endurance races from past Forza games are gone, best you can do is set up online an 2.4hr race,
Hate this since I get sick of the short races and don't have internet to race online. I also wish they would create actual championship series' with a points structure and perhaps prize cars.
- their history of handling exclusive content, from LCE/VIP cars opened to public later for $ to FM3UC's exclusive cars to preorder cars specific to retailers which are now available for purchase 3 months post launch, but I hate exclusive content that normal buyers can't access so might be a personal gripe than anything. I'm fine if it's modded/tuned/painted cars but not specifically cars entirely,
Agree.
- paint livery issues on some cars, yes the "stickers" aren't perfect. The Audi R18 from the last DLC you can't paint on the black areas, some cars have areas that you can't put vinyls over, some bugs like mirror effects of vinyl groups appear on other panels, you still can't put vinyls on windows, I've personally noticed sometimes where in hood view that vinyls on the hood have a glitch in it being nothing but a bunch of jagged lines flickering away on some contours of the hood,
Agree. I wish they would allow for painting every part and panel of the car separate (would be easier than making vinyls for each) as well as allowing you to paint chrome/plastic mirrors, chrome wheels, and especially stock wheels. The decal glitches can be annoying, like with the Dodge Omni GLHS, where the decals disappear if you even just paint the wheels.
- continued carry over of some car bugs from past Forza games, STILL not resolved (i.e. mk4 Jetta/Bora has same cluster issue since FM2!)
No excuses here.
- no open wheel cars/visible "open" suspensions, from F1 vehicles to a Caparo T1 to Caterham 7,
Hopefully this could be resolved for the next Xbox/next game.
- no Porsche, and still I say a big and massive 🤬 to EA for that one,
I hope they were able to get a license since EA's expired.
- lighting engine, which is VASTLY improved from the past (and I do mean VASTLY) is still not on par with GT5,
Yeah, this is the one major point where GT5 shines (pun not intended
) Some of the cars in FM4 still look plasticy, while others just look too shiny like they have been waxed and buffed several times.
- server hiccups, there's been issues with servers for some time either related to server load or whatnot, you either get lag spikes racing online, your My Forza, storefront and AH areas comes down a few times per month, etc.. I had less issues online in FM2 and it seems to have gotten a bit worse with each iteration,
I've read that this is a major pain for many people. Seems like T10 could get their stuff together on this.
- the best one!! The over aggressiveness of AI going into turn 1 isn't my problem as they are trying to keep in front of you and will trade paint. It's the issue when they sometimes forget they are racing and forget to brake,
Dunno, it's pretty funny to watch on the replay!
- lack of 3rd party wheel/pedal sets, which we got A LOT more options with FM4 than past Forzas (I <3 my Fanatec CSR wheel/CSRE pedals),
- locked out of 3rd party wheels, MS is mostly to blame, not T10/FM4 but see above, and to a degree we can say Logitech/Thrustmaster/etc are also to blame as they didn't conform to MS's demands for that chip as well,
Don't use a wheel, however I agree that there needs to be a better selection. As you said though, it's not exactly T10's fault.
- a lot of carry over in terms of cars, including DLC that came in FM3, few new cars to the franchise,
I don't mind this too much since we are getting ~70 new cars as DLC. Biggest issue in my eyes is the whole "Unicorn" BS. I really wish they would have gone with special versions of the cars already in the game, especially the higher priced cars that you could still purchase if you had the credits.
- a lot of carry over in terms of tracks, few new tracks added to FM4 and I'm fine with carried over cars but I wished we saw more new tracks,
Agree, not to mention they even removed a few tracks from FM3. Also how they reuse the same races numerous times, while barely using others.
- a lot of carry over upgrades section, i.e VERY few new wheels added to the wheel upgrade section, lots of modding has been very similar to what you could do before, albeit some extreme cases of engine/drivetrain swaps were in fact removed,
Agree. I really hope for the next game they add more wheels, especially since they've left out some great ones. I also wish they would add more bodykits, especially to vehicles that don't have any now. Heck, they could make a few of their own if none exist for the real car.
- a lot of carry over with tuning, tuning menus are practically the same (if it ain't broke, why fix it?),
I don't mind that they have the same layout, since it makes knowing where the sections are easy if you're just starting the game. However, I think it would be cool if they had an animation of the component that you were adjusting, perhaps showing how your changes affect that component.
- no dynamic time, and no the few tracks that get different times of day for certain 2 heat races is not equivalent. It still is nice to have, but not the same as dynamic time of day even if GT5 does it on so few tracks (3?),
Perhaps the next game will be able to utilize the XB720 and allow for dynamic time on all tracks.
- no weather, with some PGR folks on board now I thought we'd see this added for FM4 but nope.. maybe FM5?,
Weather I don't care for as much, though I know how some want it.
- no offroad courses, especially since there's many offroad specific vehicles included on disk and via DLC,
Offroad may involve them creating a modified suspension engine, which may not seem important to them at this time. However, I agree about how they are adding off-road type vehicles, so some sort of dirt track would be fun to have.
- no pit animations,
Something I find a bit trivial since it creates extra work for something that isn't important overall.
- endurance races from past Forza games are gone, best you can do is set up online an 2.4hr race,
Hate this since I get sick of the short races and don't have internet to race online. I also wish they would create actual championship series' with a points structure and perhaps prize cars.
- their history of handling exclusive content, from LCE/VIP cars opened to public later for $ to FM3UC's exclusive cars to preorder cars specific to retailers which are now available for purchase 3 months post launch, but I hate exclusive content that normal buyers can't access so might be a personal gripe than anything. I'm fine if it's modded/tuned/painted cars but not specifically cars entirely,
Agree.
- paint livery issues on some cars, yes the "stickers" aren't perfect. The Audi R18 from the last DLC you can't paint on the black areas, some cars have areas that you can't put vinyls over, some bugs like mirror effects of vinyl groups appear on other panels, you still can't put vinyls on windows, I've personally noticed sometimes where in hood view that vinyls on the hood have a glitch in it being nothing but a bunch of jagged lines flickering away on some contours of the hood,
Agree. I wish they would allow for painting every part and panel of the car separate (would be easier than making vinyls for each) as well as allowing you to paint chrome/plastic mirrors, chrome wheels, and especially stock wheels. The decal glitches can be annoying, like with the Dodge Omni GLHS, where the decals disappear if you even just paint the wheels.
- continued carry over of some car bugs from past Forza games, STILL not resolved (i.e. mk4 Jetta/Bora has same cluster issue since FM2!)
No excuses here.
- no open wheel cars/visible "open" suspensions, from F1 vehicles to a Caparo T1 to Caterham 7,
Hopefully this could be resolved for the next Xbox/next game.
- no Porsche, and still I say a big and massive 🤬 to EA for that one,
I hope they were able to get a license since EA's expired.
- lighting engine, which is VASTLY improved from the past (and I do mean VASTLY) is still not on par with GT5,
Yeah, this is the one major point where GT5 shines (pun not intended
) Some of the cars in FM4 still look plasticy, while others just look too shiny like they have been waxed and buffed several times.- server hiccups, there's been issues with servers for some time either related to server load or whatnot, you either get lag spikes racing online, your My Forza, storefront and AH areas comes down a few times per month, etc.. I had less issues online in FM2 and it seems to have gotten a bit worse with each iteration,
I've read that this is a major pain for many people. Seems like T10 could get their stuff together on this.
- the best one!! The over aggressiveness of AI going into turn 1 isn't my problem as they are trying to keep in front of you and will trade paint. It's the issue when they sometimes forget they are racing and forget to brake,
Dunno, it's pretty funny to watch on the replay!
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