◆ SNAIL [Enduro] Racing - Closed Until Further Notice
- Thread starter cmbeal317
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- 814
- California
- hillracing
dsgerbc
Premium
- 2,577
- dsgerbc
- 5,913
- Texas
- zer05ive
I agree that adjusting brake balance is a form of tuning. That's way I don't understand why it wouldn't be prohibited when the tuning is set to prohibited. They might as well allow adjustment of ride height and sprint rate too.
This is the main reason I wish adjusting brake balance could be prohibited. I don't want anyone to feel compelled to spend time tuning or testing to race with us. The other reason is that adjusting brake balance changes the driving characteristics of the cars on the grid. Sure, you can argue that it's only a slight change, but it still flies in the face "spec" racing.
How do they do that? Is this a capability of the DFGT wheel?
- 156
- sethfraz22
I'm guessing he was referring to real life racing. In most forms of racing drivers wouldn't typically change it every corner. But throughout a race usually they'll dial in more rear brake as the race proceeds. Really it depends on countless variables for that specific race car, track, tire, driving style ect..
dsgerbc
Premium
- 2,577
- dsgerbc
Any wheel where buttons can be remapped. DFGT can do it with baseline settings, iirc. Can also be done on g25,g27 and fanatec wheels using g25 profile. Or you can map those to controller, if your wheel doesn't have configurable buttons.
Given that BB adjustment was prohibited in GTA trials, I don't see why they didn't make it an option in regular GT5. But as long as it's non-disablealbe and stewards aren't willing to police it (possible, but a pain), we have to allow it.
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- 5,913
- Texas
- zer05ive
When you have a chance, can you explain how this is done? I have a G27 and am in-game right now looking at the button-mapping screen. However, I don't see an an option to remap anything to related to brake balance. I'm guessing I'm just overlooking something obvious. Perhaps it has to do with (RA function) Adjust +/-?
I'm guessing that's just a case of the guys running GTA having more common sense than the guy(s) at PD in charge of implementing the Tuning Prohibited feature. As we all know, having common sense doesn't seem to be one of the top requirements for landing a job on the GT5 development team.
Possible, you say? Please tell me more..
dsgerbc
Premium
- 2,577
- dsgerbc
Yeap.
One button to bring up RA function menu, two buttons to move up/down the menu and two buttons to adjust +/-.
If you map those buttons, you can use them when you watch the replay to see what BB everyone is using. So, theoretically you can enforce the 5/5 BB.Possible, you say? Please tell me more..
Possibly make the penalty for violation pretty severe and randomly check a few people in a few laps in few corners where BB might be helpful.
In general I'm not sure enforcing 5/5 is good for clean racing. In high-powered RWD cars forcing 5/5 could lead to people having less control over their cars later in the race.
Nicktune
Premium
- 1,258
- T-R
- Nic-KL
You forgot that not everyone is using a wheel..With a controller there's little or no pedal travel (it's everything or nothing).I agree that adjusting brake balance is a form of tuning. That's way I don't understand why it wouldn't be prohibited when the tuning is set to prohibited. They might as well allow adjustment of ride height and sprint rate too.
- 5,913
- Texas
- zer05ive
Wow, this is eye-opening. I'm going to have to test this out and give it some serious consideration. Need to make sure the pros outweigh the cons..
Does disqualifying a car for the entire round sound severe enough? In other words, if a driver gets gets caught adjusting his brake balance, he would automatically lose all the points from both the "Fastest First" and "Reverse Grid" races in that round. Of course, doing something like that would require an extensive campaign to notify drivers of this hypothetical policy change so that nobody could use the "I didn't know" excuse.
This is one of the pros vs. cons situations to consider. However, considering that S.N.A.I.L. races are only about 10 minutes, I think late-race lack of control would be far less of an issue there than it would be here in S.P.E.C. where endurance races are the name of the game.
Right now, I would consider the biggest "con" to be the extra work required to police something like this.
If you're saying that controller-users need to adjust their brake balance to "level the playing field", I would disagree with that. I'd say that ABS does a good job of negating the "everything or nothing" characteristic of the square button. Also keep in mind that a lot of controller-users use L2 or R3 to control the brake so that they can have proportional pedal-like input.
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- 434
- Chillicothe, OH
- ADR_BRONCO/GTP_BRONCO
What if it's like damage & tires which are some times screwed up in the replay?
- 5,913
- Texas
- zer05ive
It it proves to be something that is not accurately represented in replays, then of course we wouldn't try to police it. However, I think the chances of that being an issue are small.
- 694
- Pennsylvania
- lifesagamble420
I just tested the whole brake idea, and being a complete newcomer to spec racing, and wheel racing, here is what I figured out in about 15 minutes of gameplay, completely not warmed up. I tried the brake bias of 6/8 on the Civic. Here is my hypothesis on how it affected me. Running 5 laps on Laguna, I achieved a lap time of 1:47:057 as my best lap time. My previous lap time record done earlier today on 5/5 brakes was 1:48:086. So in adjusting my brake bias I gained a second on my lap time, without really warming up. I did six laps, all of which were consistently under 1:48. Upon adjusting the brakes, I noticed my tire wear was much worse than the stock brakes. So in conclusion, all I have to say input wise, and I understand I am a newcomer and do not expect respect at this point in my SNAIL career, is that yes brake bias may make your car faster, depending on how you adjust it, the drivetrain of the car etc., but it is completely minimal. One second on the race track can mean winning or losing a race, but to try to regulate that is just unjust, as no cars in the real world have 50/50 brake bias, excluding some AWD cars that may or may not.
P.S. Is anyone practicing tonight?
P.S. Is anyone practicing tonight?
- 434
- Chillicothe, OH
- ADR_BRONCO/GTP_BRONCO
Two words Placebo effect my friend. Brake bias doesn't make that much difference trust me its just you adjust and you try harder sometimes this happens with tuning too.
All the times I've tested brake bias it hardly makes a difference, for instance @ Tsukuba in a stock Lancer I've lapped 1.03.0xx with 8/6, 3/9, 2/10. @ other tracks once I've adjusted brake bias it might help but barely maybe a tenth or so but no way a second. However you are correct about brake bias does effect tire wear
- 156
- sethfraz22
It can change your entry & affect you through the middle. Try something 8-4 then flip it & try 4-8. The first one should make your car tight on entry & through the middle The second should make it loose on entry & free through the middle. 8-4 is an example
dsgerbc
Premium
- 2,577
- dsgerbc
That thing understeers like there's no tomorrow even with 0/10 setting, so it's not surprising there's no difference.
I'm not saying that the difference is huge though, and if there is, it is not in lap time, but in consistency. It's just trying to make the car fit your preference. Just the right amount of loose under braking for consistent trail-braking. I can still execute the same line with different BB, it will just take different braking/steering efforts and tire loads and will be harder for me to replicate from lap to lap.
wow, what a debate on brakes, I chose not to run this season becuase I am just not a fan of the 4wd on pavement thing, but... almost every form of raceing allows ENORMOUS lee-way on brakeing systems, from go-karts - to NASCAR - to AMLS
you can change not only the bias, but brake pad compounds, rotor materials, and thinckness... ALMS and (strangly enough ) NASCAR have broken into a new era lately by adding cooling systems to thier brakes ( like liquid colling, not just airducts), but generally, of all the particulars that set-up rules have... since the 1960's... the brakes, are about the only systems officials don't bother with.
in real life SPEC racing the only restriction is if you actually are allowed a bias knob in the cockpit, otherwise you can even adjust the brakeing pressure... in addition to the bias between not only the front to back, but also (rarely) from side to side. even without an adjustmentt knob, you can change anything you wish in the pits, and at any time you wish.
the plain simplicity of BB.. is personal driving style, if you loose 1 sec per lap by adjusting from 7/7 to 8/5... then you forgot to adjust your line in accordence with the wieght transfer involved, cures a littel push or a little loosness, at most you should be looking for one to two tenths off your lap time. so if you are following someone with a constant interval of 1 sec, adjust more agressively and in 10 laps you should be able to catch them.... in theory.
the GT-5.. and most real life situations, more bias to the front is considered to be a saftey feature.. you dont want the rears locking up before the fronts.. or you garantee a spin.. but this league runs abs( witch IS considered a "tuneing" in real life), so it's immaterial, although abs sytems adds about 10 lbs.
ALSO.. it's time for me to start my campaign for real damge for real drivers again.. lets put our talents, and skill to the test, no need for a pace car, just good drivers.
you can change not only the bias, but brake pad compounds, rotor materials, and thinckness... ALMS and (strangly enough ) NASCAR have broken into a new era lately by adding cooling systems to thier brakes ( like liquid colling, not just airducts), but generally, of all the particulars that set-up rules have... since the 1960's... the brakes, are about the only systems officials don't bother with.
in real life SPEC racing the only restriction is if you actually are allowed a bias knob in the cockpit, otherwise you can even adjust the brakeing pressure... in addition to the bias between not only the front to back, but also (rarely) from side to side. even without an adjustmentt knob, you can change anything you wish in the pits, and at any time you wish.
the plain simplicity of BB.. is personal driving style, if you loose 1 sec per lap by adjusting from 7/7 to 8/5... then you forgot to adjust your line in accordence with the wieght transfer involved, cures a littel push or a little loosness, at most you should be looking for one to two tenths off your lap time. so if you are following someone with a constant interval of 1 sec, adjust more agressively and in 10 laps you should be able to catch them.... in theory.
the GT-5.. and most real life situations, more bias to the front is considered to be a saftey feature.. you dont want the rears locking up before the fronts.. or you garantee a spin.. but this league runs abs( witch IS considered a "tuneing" in real life), so it's immaterial, although abs sytems adds about 10 lbs.
ALSO.. it's time for me to start my campaign for real damge for real drivers again.. lets put our talents, and skill to the test, no need for a pace car, just good drivers.
try running without ABS enabled.... the brake bias will become you're main avenue for set-up, most important part of a racecar is.. where the rubber meets the road.. 1st system to calibrte should therefore be brakes. i found i (eventually) cut ~3 seconds off my taskuba lap times, in the nissian 350Z.. 59.8's with abs down to 57.287 after about 25 laps with no abs... it's rough without pedal resistence though in this game you need a VERY sensitive steering wheel to feel the lock up. but i adjusted the brake bias nearly half of those laps.
i turned abs back on, and dropped lap times back down to 58.5's , although i hit the wall a lot less
- 156
- sethfraz22
Without a doubt bb changes your car handling
- 156
- sethfraz22
I won't be there 2nite. Rl racing. Have fun guys
- 434
- Chillicothe, OH
- ADR_BRONCO/GTP_BRONCO
sethfraz22
What are you racing Seth?
cmbeal317
Premium
- 2,677
- Pennsylvania,US
- cmbeal317
Everyone, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry for not being to active in the thread this week, between taking my dad to his doctor and some surgery on the fractures around his eye and taking my brother to football practice and his scrimmage today, I just haven't had a whole lot of time to keep everything up to date. I will be updating the results tomorrow with last weeks results as well as the results tonight. fzappa informed me that some people were complaining that last weeks race was far to long. So as a result tonight's race has been reduced to 45 Laps. Hope to see everyone soon!
cmbeal317
cmbeal317
- 5,300
- Tijuana, B.C.
- MRT_Cinnamon
Make the other races shorter too, the evo and the elise have almost the same pp and it's illogical that you set more laps in the same track (Spa) that we were supposed to run
Well, about the race, I wasn't even planning to be there, because penalties in this track are very strange,
In the place highlihted in green, if you brake a bit late, you obviously will go wide and you'll have to go slower, and the game will cancel your lap time / charge you with X penalty seconds
in the places highlighted in red, you can cut the curve, but if you go a bit wide to the kerb, the game will cancel your lap time / charge you with X penalty seconds
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- 814
- California
- hillracing
Well that sucked. Not the race but I stupidly clicked ok on my last pit stop when I was going to change to hards and had to pit on the last lap to be legal. That was a long race to throw away like that. Otherwise I really enjoyed it. The strategy of when to pit and all was fun to figure out and I think if I had got the right tires on the last one it might have been a close one because I think we were on different tire strategies. Anyways good race and I'll see you all next week.
- 1,837
- Fullerton ca
- TRL_Importlife
I had to get off b4 the race started my gf got into an accident down the street from my house 
- 156
- sethfraz22
Hope she's ok dg.
I race on a quarter mile asphalt oval. Had a great night. Qualified 3rd, won the dash, heat, & main.
I race on a quarter mile asphalt oval. Had a great night. Qualified 3rd, won the dash, heat, & main.
