Shooting at Empire State Building.

True I did not know that. I think it's quite hard (or even impossible) to tell that from the posts that user made in this tread.

If you don't like guns, don't own one.

Not so much if you were well acquainted with him...

photonrider

At this point construction foreman, Brian Dillon, called attention to what was happenning, shouted for police, and despite being told by his co-workers to desist, persued the shooter who was walking east down the south side of 33rd street.

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Also, if anyone is curious, he doesn't seem to be one of the people that was wounded.

So this guy shot at, and killed just one man? It does seem over the top, considering the number of pedestrians injured by the shots fired by the Police. Whether if it was an overreaction on the police officers' part, I can't say without actually being there.

One thing does seem clear, and it is that this shooter was immature. 58-year-old man should know better. If you are so unhappy about being laid-off, losing home, so unhappy that you want to shoot somebody, you should just shoot yourself. Not to say that his victim wasn't a Class A A-Hole. Maybe the boss screwed him royally, then took his retirement away or something, but we'll never know.

Famine

Hi Dapper. Bye Dapper.

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I did not see that one coming.

Phew, the thread is back on track. The past few pages were a University level course in the argument over semantics.

Let's talk about the shooting.

The NYPD modify all of their handguns to have a 12lb trigger pull.

(In case anyone didn't know, a "12-pound trigger pull" refers to the force required to discharge the weapon.)

Anyone who knows guns will notice that this is about double of what most fighting handguns normally use.
Having to pull with a force of 12 pounds means the shooter's hand will be making sympathetic motions as they pull, reducing accuracy.

Here's an example target from 15 yards by a well-experienced shooter. The target on the left is with a 10lb trigger, the target on the right is a lighter single action (unsure of the weight).


For some reason, NYPD also do not train very often with their firearms.

Take one untrained shooter, mix with a stressful situation, sprinkle in some innocent bystanders, and add a dash of moving and unclear target and you get what happened in NYC.

Why is the 12lb trigger pull there? Is that to discourage shooting? I mean, once they take the gun and aim, the police men have already decided to shoot anyway. And if that's the case, then everything should be in place for accurate shooting. Strange.

If you ask a lawyer, they might tell you that having a heavier trigger pull reduces the chance of the firearm accidentally discharging or the person firing the weapon when they "only" meant to brandish it (with their finger on the trigger, apparently).

If you ask somebody who shoots guns, they'll tell you it's because NYPD are more concerned with pleasing a few lawyers than they are with actually having good equipment that they are proficiently trained with.

What sort of handgun that the officers used in the incident ? Are they the usual Glock, Sig , Beretta, or revolver ? The cops used double action handguns, yes ? I am still baffled why the police officers have to shoot Johnson so many times just to bring him down, 2 or 3 hits on center mass would have neutralized or killed an old man like him.

Zenith013

If you ask a lawyer, they might tell you that having a heavier trigger pull reduces the chance of the firearm accidentally discharging or the person firing the weapon when they "only" meant to brandish it (with their finger on the trigger, apparently).

If you ask somebody who shoots guns, they'll tell you it's because NYPD are more concerned with pleasing a few lawyers than they are with actually having good equipment that they are proficiently trained with.

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OK, did not know that.

What everyone in this thread should be able to agree on is that guns are not designed to murder anyone. So the whole discussion about what guns are designed to do is pointless, they are not designed to break laws protecting people's lives.... end of discussion.

danoff

what everyone in this thread should be able to agree on is that guns are not designed to murder anyone. So the whole discussion about what guns are designed to do is pointless, they are not designed to break laws protecting people's lives.... End of discussion.

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+1

I am sorry for the dead and their families.

Bullets and guns are made for just one purpose.

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This is not an opinion. This is stated as a fact. Read the post just above yours which would be a fine example of an opinion. Opinions are subjective and have a lot of 'probably's and 'I think's' and 'I believe' , etc, etc. You may say:
"I think the Moon was made for one purpose." (Opinion - subjective and personal)
"The Moon was made for one purpose" (Stated as a fact - one better have more that philosophical, logical, or semantical proof.)
Saying: "I think Gravity has only one purpose - to bring down the rain." is an opinion, and can spur involved discussion.
Saying: "Gravity has only one purpose!" is a bold statement of fact - and then needs be debated as to its credibility.
Much like saying "Bullets and Guns are made for just one purpose."
First question - by whom?
Smith and Wesson makes guns to sell. They make and sell bullets, too. They do it for money.
Is a choice of weapon ever legal? Your opinion?

You are very welcome to post opinions throughout the Forums, not just here. The GT Forums are crazy with opinions. And lots of proven facts, too, of course.


Back on the current event topic of the shooting at Times Square:

The NY Times reported that Johnson's pet, a cat, died a short while before this happened. According to his mother, Johnson, dressed in a Fendi jacket, had been hugging the sickly and shivering cat, who was suffering from cancer, in grief - it died in his arms after having to be put down. He thereafter used the jacket to wrap the cat in at the Vet's office.
He was distraught by the loss of this cat, as if he had lost his only friend and noted in a letter that his life had been diminished ten-fold after the loss. The cat's name was Romeo.
He wrote: "I would have honestly traded places with him. I'm astonished at how much I miss him. He just filled every room in the apartment. Nothing seems special without him around. It embarrasses me that I feel this way. Life is bigger than one cat or me or you."
He ended the letter by saying "Don't worry, I'm alright."
But he may not have been; as a eleven year old he had been struck by a car, and was in a coma for five days. The doctors had not expected him to live and had assumed that there would be after effects later in his life.
Johnson was a crackshot in The Coast guards.
Johnson was born in Japan.
Johnson loved the red-tailed hawk, Pale Male, in central Park and took dozens of photos of the bird.
Guess what - all this (never mind the 'weapon-legality') is only the tip of the iceberg concerning this situation.


The more I examine video - the more I see that Johnson, moving slowly to get his gun out of the bag and dramatically presenting his whole body to the police, was actually in some sort of 'suicide' mode.
Maybe it's only me - because this latter thought is just an opinion; one never knows what was in Johnson's mind.

photonrider

You are very welcome to post opinions throughout the Forums, not just here.

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It is my opinion, just as the gun lovers have their opinions.

It also appears from the video that when Johnson swung around to confront the cops it took them by surprise; they had almost caught up to him, he had no gun drawn, and it was possible they could have approached him close enough to tackle him.
It may have been the pedestrian who had just crossed his path that may have alerted him to policemen behind him.
Why did Ercolino follow him in elevator and out to the sidewalk and thereby to his own death?
There is probably video from the elevator cameras that give police more info on the events that led to this murder.

What have I learned from this? Not to have my earphones on in crowded spaces; according to one bystander she didn't know a shooting was happening feet away from her until she saw people falling down and bleeding.
Yes, she had her iPod cranked up.

And again a shooting where the offender is/was en employee:

3 dead, including gunman, in Pathmark shootout

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_jersey&id=8793473

Damnit

Clearly we need laws against owning AK-47s!

Oh wait...