50 dead at Orlando club shooting.

[Dan]

Okay fine, shoot me for being an idiot.

You're not an idiot and we don't hate you. We're just trying to get our points across. I still respect you.

 

[Exorcet]

Also when you use a Christian Militia as an Example of Christian aggressors maybe you should fact check first.

The country in Question had it's government overthrown by a Muslim Rebel group called Saleka who put it's leader as the president who then went on a Christian cleansing spree in the majority Christian nation, this aggressor you speak of was basically Blowback from said aggression pushed towards them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...d-11e3-8d24-31c016b976b2_story.html?tid=a_inl

The attacks aren't limited to the Muslim fighters behind the coup. All Muslims are being targeted. If the Christians are committed to wiping out the Muslims in their country, that's an aggressive act.

When one group controls the law with violence in it's decree I would say otherwise.

Violent laws are not lacking on any side. These are all faith based systems with factually incorrect and sometimes conflicting authorities (Bible, Koran, etc). If you wanted to cite the Bible for violence, it's not difficult. Even in the New Testament, apparently God could only forgive people by nailing someone to a cross. I don't see Islam as any more prone to violence. It just so happens that it generates more people willing to carry out violence against non believers at this point in time. Some of that is definitely related to relatively recent interaction with the western nations that are on the receiving end of their aggression.

Again I'll point out that the Muslim world and west were once reversed. I don't think it can simply be brushed off as just something from the past. Muslim people were able to set aside enough of their religion to be leaders in science. It was a sharp turn away from that that led Islam to where it is today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

Christianity isn't without parallels. There are plenty of people willing to ignore science completely because it conflicts with their book. Fortunately these people aren't motivated into projecting their beliefs violently (for the most part). Part of that comes down to a better standard of living for them versus people in war ravaged Muslim countries.

I ask do you know what a Caliphate is?

Yes.

and please explain to me how The Gulf states are under Developed Economies.

I was referring more specifically to places like Iraq and Afghanistan which are producing fighters ready to kill in waves. Wealthier nations like Saudi Arabia are much more willing to work with external cultures.

But lets see the US Government do the same as Country's Ran by Sharia and execute Homosexuals, Apostates and the like for trying to live a secular life.

Simple fact is you still haven't worked out what Secularism is.

The Muslim population of one nation is not the same as another's. Even if The US became a Muslim majority, that doesn't mean there would be any executions at all, or that it would closely resemble other Muslim lands.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

 

[mustafur]

The attacks aren't limited to the Muslim fighters behind the coup. All Muslims are being targeted. If the Christians are committed to wiping out the Muslims in their country, that's an aggressive act.

Yes it is, but it's not the aggressor as you claimed, there was a reason for it even though it was the wrong way to do it.

Violent laws are not lacking on any side. These are all faith based systems with factually incorrect and sometimes conflicting authorities (Bible, Koran, etc). If you wanted to cite the Bible for violence, it's not difficult. Even in the New Testament, apparently God could only forgive people by nailing someone to a cross. I don't see Islam as any more prone to violence. It just so happens that it generates more people willing to carry out violence against non believers at this point in time. Some of that is definitely related to relatively recent interaction with the western nations that are on the receiving end of their aggression.

If your going to talk about religion please read one of the books before trying to say they are the same, they are not and anyone can tell you this. Jesus in the bible and Mohammed in the Quran are soo different it can't even be measured.

Jesus was a pacifist who died a Virgin.

Mohammed was a conquerer who owned slaves, had non belivers executed, married multiple wives including one that he had sex with who was 9 years old.

The difference at face value is massive.

Again I'll point out that the Muslim world and west were once reversed. I don't think it can simply be brushed off as just something from the past. Muslim people were able to set aside enough of their religion to be leaders in science. It was a sharp turn away from that that led Islam to where it is today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

That was because they went from Anti-Rationalist to Rationalist(Which is what Christianity has been since the Dark ages), questioning the meanings of the Quran, this however was eventually slowed by the fundamentalists who put it back to literalism, but even before that the Christian world was starting to out innovate, this of course was at the end of the Dark ages which is essentially what Islam has been in since the 13th century.

Christianity isn't without parallels. There are plenty of people willing to ignore science completely because it conflicts with their book. Fortunately these people aren't motivated into projecting their beliefs violently (for the most part). Part of that comes down to a better standard of living for them versus people in war ravaged Muslim countries.

Source please, I have yet to see correlation between this. Given Saudi Arabia has significant wealth yet is hardline.

I suggest you look up and learn about Salafism, this is alive and well.

I was referring more specifically to places like Iraq and Afghanistan which are producing fighters ready to kill in waves. Wealthier nations like Saudi Arabia are much more willing to work with external cultures.

Do you even have any idea what Saudi Arabia is doing, direct links to funding Al-Qaeda in Yemen, Al Nusra in Syria they are using that developed economy money for fundamentalist ideals.

 

[A2K78]

@Blitz24

Yes I read the 911 transcript however just because some guy decided pledge his loyalty to a terror leader doesn't really make it out to be a case of terrorism.

@Tornado

http://www.fringemedia.net/#!nightclubs-exposed-a-culture-of-drugs/c1k1q

You can couple that with the constant news of incidents in regard to the club scene.

 

[Obelisk]

@Blitz24

Yes I read the 911 transcript however just because some guy decided pledge his loyalty to a terror leader doesn't really make it out to be a case of terrorism.

@Tornado

http://www.fringemedia.net/#!nightclubs-exposed-a-culture-of-drugs/c1k1q

You can couple that with the constant news of incidents in regard to the club scene.

[Citation needed]

All I'm seeing is a tinfoil hat website.

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.fringemedia.net/#!nightclubs-exposed-a-culture-of-drugs/c1k1q

You can couple that with the constant news of incidents in regard to the club scene.

That seems to be more about how drugs were readily available in nightclubs 25 years ago and then meanders into a vaporous connection between gangs/drugs and gangs/nightclub-ownership. No news there, just lots of suggestions that it's "ironic", wink wink.

I used to go to the Ministry around the time that article mentions and I never once saw a drugs deal and only saw a few low-level scuffles. It certainly wasn't the glassing capital of world crime that the writer suggests. What a load of bollocks.

Finally, if a description of the drug business in the 60s, 70s and 90s is "constant news" then I'm a Dutchman.

 

[Tornado]

Okay fine, shoot me for being an idiot.

Only if we see you in a club.

 

[Kent]

Any one else see how a "friend" of the shoot has come out and did an interview on NBC saying he reported the guy to the FBI 2 years ago because he was concerned about the shooter doing something like what happened?

It's a sad sight IMHO when devout Muslims are doing exactly what the FBI has been asking only to end up being ignored (with consequences we have all seen play out).

 

[A2K78]

@TenEightyOne

Sorry this took long(have other stuff to do) but when I talk about the importance of emphasizing private property and free association I'm talking about letting individuals be free to do whatever they want morally in relation to other groups without the intervention of government on any level... In this case I personally believe people have a right to discriminate against whom ever they choose, refuse service to who ever they choose all provided that the force of government isn't used to violate someone's else's property rights e.g. the use of anti-discrimination laws or bans on a individual lifestyle.

 

[ryzno]

Off topic and it probably needs it's own thread, but 25 people were shot in a theater in West Germany. I'm driving at work sorry for no link.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Off topic and it probably needs it's own thread, but 25 people were shot in a theater in West Germany. I'm driving at work sorry for no link.

I'm watching the news right now and it says one shot was fired and that over twenty were injured by tear gas.

 

[ryzno]

I'm watching the news right now and it says one shot was fired and that over twenty were injured by tear gas.

Yeah, I've heard the story vary on the radio. Sorry for the rushed info.

 

[A2K78]

Just like France and Orlando I would like to see how the gun prohibitionists spin Germany and I say this because we clearly an issue with a gun free zone place and one with strict gun control laws.

 

[ryzno]

I'm watching the news right now and it says one shot was fired and that over twenty were injured by tear gas.

Do you have a good link? USA is treating us like mushrooms as always. I didn't hear a word about tear gas while working, except the "shot/injured" number varying.

 

[Dennisch]

Do you have a good link? USA is treating us like mushrooms as always. I didn't hear a word about tear gas while working, except the "shot/injured" number varying.

Bbc

 

[ukfan758]

So why did the government want to censor the 911 transcripts? What is there to hide?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Just like France and Orlando I would like to see how the gun prohibitionists spin Germany

He didn't shoot anybody, did he?

 

[Blitz24]

He didn't shoot anybody, did he?

No but the police shot him. Ban the police!

 

[Tornado]

Off topic and it probably needs it's own thread, but 25 people were shot in a theater in West Germany. I'm driving at work sorry for no link.

That's clearly because only hedonists and drug addicts... go to theaters.

 

[ryzno]

That's clearly because only hedonists and drug addicts... go to theaters.

Say what? I think you wanted to tag A2K78

Edit: I don't know where you got the idea that's why I posted that.

 

[stonesfan129]

He didn't shoot anybody, did he?

But the underlying point being made is that there already is lots of gun control in Germany. I remember reading somewhere that the only way a person can get a gun is by going through a lot of red tape/paperwork and then it also has to be kept under lock & key at a range. Gun control doesn't stop the bad guys because that's not what laws do. They merely provide consequences for people who break them.

 

[TenEightyOne]

there already is lots of gun control in Germany. I remember reading somewhere that the only way a person can get a gun is by going through a lot of red tape/paperwork and then it also has to be kept under lock & key at a range.

That's incorrect.

 

[stonesfan129]

Firearms banned from sporting use[edit]
The following firearms are banned from sporting use in Germany, and may not be purchased with a license issued with the necessety of sporting:

• Handguns with a barrel length of less than 7.62 cm (3 inches)
• Semi automatic long guns with a built-in magazine with a capacity of more than 10 rounds
• Semi automatic firearms that closely resemble a prohibited firearm (see below), if
  • the barrel length is less than 42 cm, or
  • the weapon is a bullpup design, or
  • the shell casing of the ammunition the firearm is designed for is less than 40mm

This restriction only applies to persons with sports shooters license and not to those with hunters- and collectors licenses.

Firearms that do not require a license[edit]
For persons over 18 years of age, a license is not required to own or even carry a single shot percussion firearm developed before January 1, 1871, as well as all muzzle loaders with a flintlock or earlier design. However, the purchase of black powder or similar in order to actually use the firearms requires a license, except when purchased at a shooting range for immediate use at that range.[citation needed]

Prohibited firearms[edit]
Firearms that are prohibited in Germany may not be owned by anyone except with a special license from the Federal Criminal Police Office, which is only given to manufacturers, exporters, and, on rare occasions, collectors. The most important one's are:

• Firearms defined as "War Weapons" by the law (tanks, rocket launchers, heavy machine guns)
• Fully automatic firearms
• Pump-action shotguns, if
  • the stock has been replaced by a pistol grip or
  • the overall length is less than 95 cm, or
  • the barrel length is less than 45 cm.
• Firearms designed to look like an everyday object in order to conceal their nature
• Handguns made after January 1, 1970 that fire ammunition with a caliber of less than 6.3mm, except those for rimfire ammunition.

Firearms carry permit[edit]
Firearms carry permits (Waffenschein) entitle licensees to publicly carry legally owned weapons, loaded in a concealed or non-concealed manner. A mandatory legal and safety class and shooting proficiency tests are required to obtain such a permit. Carry permits are usually only issued to persons with a particular need for carrying a firearm. This includes some private security personnel and persons living under a raised threat-level like celebrities and politicians. They are valid up to three years and can be extended. Carrying at public events is prohibited. Licensed hunters do not need a permit to carry loaded weapons while hunting, and unloaded weapons while directly traveling to and from such an activity.

Small firearms carry permit[edit]
A small firearms carry permit (Kleiner Waffenschein) was introduced in 2002. It can be obtained without having to demonstrate expert knowledge, necessity or a mandatory insurance. The only requirements are that the applicant be of legal age, trustworthy and personally adequate. It entitles the licensee to publicly carry gas pistols (both of the blank and irritant kind) and flare guns. These types of firearms are freely available to adults; only the actual carrying on public property requires the permit. Similar to the full permit, carrying at public events is prohibited.

 

[TenEightyOne]

...large wiki dump...

I'd already said that you were incorrect, why do a wiki dump to echo that? The things you'll notice about that wiki are that some citations are missing, the most recent edits are by a halfwit, and it still doesn't say that the weapon has to be held at a range.

 

[stonesfan129]

I'd already said that you were incorrect, why do a wiki dump to echo that? The things you'll notice about that wiki are that some citations are missing, the most recent edits are by a halfwit, and it still doesn't say that the weapon has to be held at a range.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/oliver-weiss/german-gun-laws/

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/oliver-weiss/german-gun-laws/

You claimed that an owned gun must be held at a range, I pointed out that you were incorrect, you've now posted two sources which don't support your claim. What is the point you're perpetuating?

 

[stonesfan129]

You claimed that an owned gun must be held at a range, I pointed out that you were incorrect, you've now posted two sources which don't support your claim. What is the point you're perpetuating?

My point is more laws do not stop the bad people.

 

[TenEightyOne]

My point is more laws do not stop the bad people.

You were wrong in saying that

it also has to be kept under lock & key at a range

Perhaps that's something you'd advocate?

 

[stonesfan129]

You were wrong in saying that

When have laws stopped somebody from committing a crime? Laws are reactionary, not proactive. If the second amendment were outlawed tomorrow, would all the bad guys suddenly turn them in? I doubt it.

Perhaps that's something you'd advocate?

Is this a serious question? If your firearms are under lock and key at a range, how will you defend yourself in the home?

 

[TenEightyOne]

When have laws stopped somebody from committing a crime? Laws are reactionary, not proactive. If the second amendment were outlawed tomorrow, would all the bad guys suddenly turn them in? I doubt it.

You've lost me... how is that an answer to "You were wrong in saying that it also has to be kept under lock & key at a range"? You made a claim, it wasn't correct, that's the simple truth.