2010 F1 Belgian Grand Prix

I'm really looking forward to this race as I haven't been able to watch the last 4 rounds and will be able to watch this(as well as the MotoGP race). Should be a good race.

Use this one:



I'm hoping for a Red Bull 1-2, as I am every race weekend! Good thing Newey got to keep the Flexo-Wing on the car!

Though the Ferrari's have found a good pace in the last few races, so let's home we can stave them off!

Waggles, Force India have already said they won't be repeating their 2009 showing here.

astrosdude91

Good thing Newey got to keep the Flexo-Wing on the car!

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Huh? The cars are going to get tested at scruitineering. The FIA is introducing more-rigorous testing measures (they're doubling the load applied) for Belgium. Red Bull are confident that they'll be cleared to race and they're not bringing replacement parts, but that's a huge gamble ...

@ waggles

I found a onboard lap video on youtube without music,but with commentary:




spy.

Looking forward to this one, difficult to predict in which order the top 3 teams will be.

Some rain during the weekend would certainly spice things up.

Here's a good onboard video with some great commentary from Martin Brundle.

I'm looking forward to this race too, it should be a great one and I'll record it like other races that are already over in this F1 season. 👍

Famine

In other news, Ferrari try to intimidate FIA over German Grand Prix...

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My interpretation: Ferrari are scared. Their entire championship bid rests on the outcome.

Allow me to explain - if the FIA were to prosecute and the WMSC handed down a guilty verdict and imposed a fine, going to court wouldn't be worth it. Ferrari might try to argue in court to protect their image, but in doing so they stand a serious risk of doing even more damage to themselves as they try to draw the argument out. They'd do better to pay the fine and keep their mouths shut. They can always reclaim their reputation on the track; Renault are doing as much this season.

But if the WMSC find them guilty, there is a chance that Ferrari will be a) stripped of their points from the German Grand Prix, b) excluded from one or more races, c) disqualified from the championship or d) any combination thereof. All of those outcomes are very bad for Ferrari, especially for their title bid. Disqualification for obvious reasons, but having their points stripped or being banned from races will kill their chances of winning both World Championships. I'm willing to bet that of the upcoming races, Suzuka, Singapore and possibly Korea and Interlagos will be Red Bull territory. And it's not like the Red Bulls are fantastic on one type of circuit and abysmal on others; they're always up there. If Ferrari lose any ground now, they're going to have a very, very difficult time of reclaiming any of that ground. They're not just going to need to win races, but they'll need other results to go their way.

Part of this is tied back to the political situation last year. FOTA might be called the Formula One Teams' Association, but it has always been a manufacturer initiative. It's pretty telling that the teams always met on manufacturer territory during the debate over the budget cap. Last year we lost Toyota and BMW, and Honda had already called it a day. Renault are too busy trying to reclaim their name (and doing admirably), whilst Mercedes are pre-occupied establishing their own team. And then there are three new teams with no ties to any manufacturer, further diluting the share of power. If Ferrari go into bat in the political arena, they can only call on Sauber and Toro Rosso to back them up - and Sauber and Toro Rosso don't count for much unless other teams are involved. So Ferrari have lost all of their power almost overnight, and they're desperate to reclaim it. That's why Luca alternates between hitting out at the new teams and claiming they should be allowed to run a customer chassis: Ferrari want leverage over more teams to give them more political pulling power.

It's happening on-track, too. For nearly two decades now, Formula 1 has been dominated by a Cold War between two teams at the front. From the mid-1990s, it was Ferrari and Williams. Then it was Ferrari and McLaren. And in 2005 and 2006, it was Ferrari and Renault. But in 2009, the number of teams at the front end double from two to four as Brawn and Red Bull emerged as superpowers. And of the four, Ferrari were the biggest loser. They had their worst season since 1995. But they loved the two-horse races of the past fifteen years, because they were always up there. But as the balance of power has shifted, Ferrari have seen their power diminish. They need to reclaim something, and so by switching Massa and Alonso at Hockenheim, they put Alonso back into contention for the title. Granted, six points might not sound like it makes much of a difference, but you only need half a point to win.

At the end of the day, Ferrari rattling the sabre doesn't do much. If the WMSC orders their points stripped or a race ban, there's not a lot Ferrari can do. It will take time for them to arrange a court hearing, and it's likely that hearings won't begin until after Ferrari have had their sentence imposed. All they could reasonably do is sue the FIA for points lost, but it would be impossible to prove how many points Ferrari would have otherwise gained, especially if they are given a race ban. All they're really trying to do is scare the WMSC into submission, especially given the way the French courts overturned Flavio Braitore's life ban.

If I were the FIA, I would probably meet fire with fire. The FIA don't really have a choice on this one - if they bow even slightly to Ferrari, then Ferrari win. I'd continue prosecuting as usual, and if Ferrari felt the need to take me to court, I'd simply suspend their 2011 entry until such time as the legal dispute was settled, because otherwise it would be a clear conflict of interests. I'd then do my best to delay the legal proceedings long enough so that Ferrari could only be re-admitted to the grid after the closing date for 2011 entries, thus shunting them right down to the bottom of the entry list. The numbers a team carry are a kind of status symbol, since they reflect a team's finishing position in the World Constructors' Championship - by robbing them of that claim, I make an example of them. Of course, it would depend on someone other than a Ferrari driver winning the World Drivers' Championship.

Thanks for starting this thread Waggles. A month felt like an age to wait for another F1 race (and GTP thread!).

spyrrari

@ waggles

I found a onboard lap video on youtube without music,but with commentary:




spy.

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You have to feel sorry for Bourdais. He had pretty bad luck in this race and the timing for it to happen was just horrible (his contract was under question because he wasn't delivering results that Toro Rosso were expecting I think).

Formula 1's loss is Le Mans' gain I suppose *sigh*.

Woot, love Spa!

Has it already been a month?!

Alonso will win it. But only if Vettel fails, who only will win this when Webber fails.

Is it just me or was the old bus stop a much more exciting turn than the new one?

Also it should be pretty challenging for drivers to take the eau rouge and blanchimont with the tank full.

Bram Turismo

Has it already been a month?!

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Yes, I'm amazed I survived this long without F1 too!

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Huh? The cars are going to get tested at scruitineering. The FIA is introducing more-rigorous testing measures (they're doubling the load applied) for Belgium. Red Bull are confident that they'll be cleared to race and they're not bringing replacement parts, but that's a huge gamble ...

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Sorry, It seems like I keep reading that they're good to race this weekend with the wing in question.

Maybe Spa will do the unthinkable and give us an exciting race?! Not one dominated by Red Bull...they won't be too good down the straights so the McLaren (and possibly even Renault) can catch up. Hope Petrov does well and attacks harder.

astrosdude91

Sorry, It seems like I keep reading that they're good to race this weekend with the wing in question.

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They believe they are. They're confident they'll pass the inspection tests. But we won't actually know until after scruitineering.

Wouldn't Red Bull do the smart thing and perform their own tests on the wing to check if it's legal or not? If they found it wasn't, it's off to the manufacturer for a rebuild.

waggles

Wouldn't Red Bull do the smart thing and perform their own tests on the wing to check if it's legal or not? If they found it wasn't, it's off to the manufacturer for a rebuild.

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Well, yes, but the hypothesised theory is that the wings flex under certain specific conditions. Namely, at high speeds, where the load on the wings exceeds the load used during the scruitineering tests. The implication is that both Red Bull and Ferrari have developed wings that can flex and pass the anti-flex tests. They may not be as beneficial as a wings that always flexes, but they get around the rules.

However, Red Bull are confident they will pass the tests whatever the load, implying that the reason why their wings run so much closer to the road surface is not because they flex. Naturally, they won't say what it is, because it would be a massive advantage.

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However, Red Bull are confident they will pass the tests whatever the load, implying that the reason why their wings run so much closer to the road surface is not because they flex.

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You said they doubled the load. The wing could possibly already withstand those forces. Either that or they made it slight stiffer, realigned the carbon fiber weave or whatever.

So, Red Bull hasn't brought any replacement wings. What happens if they do not pass scrutineering? Not allowed to race?

Peter

So, Red Bull hasn't brought any replacement wings. What happens if they do not pass scrutineering? Not allowed to race?

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They give the old wing to Vettel and Webber gets to sit it out.

ROAD_DOGG33J

The wing could possibly already withstand those forces.

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It could ... but if it does, I doubt it is a flexing wing. The FIA will be putting about 100kg of pressure on it; if it doesn't flex then, then it probably doesn't flex on the circuit. If the standard test is 50kg, then I can't imagine that the downforce exerted on the circuit ever weighs more than ~100kg because the FIA deems 50kg to be enough. Too much more weight (in downforce) would cause the wings to snap.

I remember hearing somewhere that the downforce is a lot greater than the weight they're using on the wings. Either way, we'll see the results in Spa.

Should be a good race. I'm trying not to jump on the Mark Webber bandwagon but I'm starting to really dislike Vettel now. Thought he was great last year tho. Anyway, 👍

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It could ... but if it does, I doubt it is a flexing wing. The FIA will be putting about 100kg of pressure on it; if it doesn't flex then, then it probably doesn't flex on the circuit. If the standard test is 50kg, then I can't imagine that the downforce exerted on the circuit ever weighs more than ~100kg because the FIA deems 50kg to be enough. Too much more weight (in downforce) would cause the wings to snap.

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The overall downforce on an F1 car is equivalent to 550kg at just 120mph - closing on 3 times that at 200mph. If only 100kg of it was on the front wing, that'd be 1.5 tonnes on the rear wing and ancillary winglets - or 15:1 rear:front bias.

I don't know enough about the technicalities of suspension loading, but I'd imagine that'd look like an anti-dragster and understeer like a dog on a polished floor.

The reality is likely to be far nearer a 1:1 distribution of downforce loading over the car at speed - meaning that at just 120mph, the front wing will be creating and experiencing forces equivalent to more than 250kg placed on it at rest.

Famine

The overall downforce on an F1 car is equivalent to 550kg at just 120mph - closing on 3 times that at 200mph. If only 100kg of it was on the front wing, that'd be 1.5 tonnes on the rear wing and ancillary winglets - or 15:1 rear:front bias.

I don't know enough about the technicalities of suspension loading, but I'd imagine that'd look like an anti-dragster and understeer like a dog on a polished floor.

The reality is likely to be far nearer a 1:1 distribution of downforce loading over the car at speed - meaning that at just 120mph, the front wing will be creating and experiencing forces equivalent to more than 250kg placed on it at rest.

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But that load is likely spread across the whole wing, whereas I thought the 100kg test was at a point, so it'd be pretty close to the mark

Erm, the FIA aren't testing if the wings will snap . They are testing that the flex of the wing is linear to the weight. The wing does flex - it will flex with 50kg and with 100kg. Its the amont of flex that is allowed and that its linear that matters. The McLaren wing flexes, every front wing flexes. The point is that Red Bull, Ferrari and I think Sauber have a wing that flexes more than normal.

Say the 50kg test is allowed to flex 5mm, then the FIA are simply testing if the 100kg test also only moves within 10mm.
Technically the FIA haven't changed the front wing loading test, only improved its accuracy by testing a bigger weight.

This rule isn't for safety directly, but simply to limit downforce. They are never going to be snapping front wings .

Chances are Red Bull (and Ferrari and Sauber) will pass the test, but they will have been taking some time during the break to make sure it does, even if they are pretending they haven't .

Ardius

Erm, the FIA aren't testing if the wings will snap . They are testing that the flex of the wing is linear to the weight. The wing does flex - it will flex with 50kg and with 100kg. Its the amont of flex that is allowed and that its linear that matters.

Say the 50kg test is allowed to flex 5mm, then the FIA are simply testing if the 100kg test also only moves within 10mm.
Technically the FIA haven't changed the front wing loading test, only improved its accuracy by testing a bigger weight.

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If they're engineered correctly, they won't come close to flexing with 50kg at all - and it won't snap until 2.5 times the weight of the car is placed on it. If it's underengineered, it'll do both. If it's overengineered it'll do neither.