Do you think PD should bring some "Western" influnce into the development process?

Stigsblkcousin

Stigsblkcousin

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BEMBEMBOWBOW
"I look around Tokyo Games Show, and everyone's making awful games. Japan is at least five years behind."

-Former Capcom R&D head Keiji Inafune
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"The West is very motivated. The designers and to-be-designers in the West have the focus, ambition, and ability to make their dream become true. So it is not the Japanese technology or culture that is losing, we are lacking the motivation."

- Hideo Kojima
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Reading these two quotes on 1up.com and the topic on what should have been done with the Top Gear track, got me to thinking. Do you think GT would benefit from having some western influence on the development team?

IMO, its like western developers are more in-tune with what GAMERS want, while eastern developers(mostly Kaz) easily gets caught up it what THEY want and totally forget about what would make gamers happy.

All BS aside, as much as I like GT5, I have to say it is kinda outdated(or more of the same thing with some of the same things being repackaged). If the people at Turn 10 would've gotten rights to the name, they (presumably) would have done something more along the line of what Fashion Cat posted(again, presumably). Its almost like PD just got the right just to drop the name.

What do you think about some western influence on PD development team?
(If there is already, please let me know.)
 
I find it quite ironic that the nation of Japan is "lacking the motivation."
The japanese are the most hardworking group of people I've ever come across, next to Chinese and Indians.

I do agree PD needs to broaden it's workplace in terms of geographical locations.
 
I don't care who makes it or influences it, so long as the Top Gear Power Lap Board get implemented in some way in the future.
 
Of course it does, because the majority of its sales are out side of Japan anyways. They need to keep their traditional Japanese attention to detail and the drive for perfect, but they also need to bring the Western usability and practicality.
 
blazor1
I find it quite ironic that the nation of Japan is "lacking the motivation."
The japanese are the most hardworking group of people I've ever come across, next to Chinese and Indians.

I do agree PD needs to broaden it's workplace in terms of geographical locations.
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I don't think it waz their physical motivation he was questioning but their creative motivation. It seems to me the Japanese would rather do the safe thing by doing more of the same, than taking chances and trying something new.
 
I quite like PD's products. They don't have some electronica-mix playing during the menus, and they don't imbue their scenery with a layer of brown muck that the 'west' seems so fascinated with. I think Japanese game developers produce the most interesting things (see shadow of the Colossus) while the VAST majority of western gaming franchises do nothing but borrow ideas from each other and end up creating clone after clone after ****** grand theft auto clone. That said, there are tons of ****E that isn't even available on our shores from the land of the rising sun, so it's hard to say for sure.

In the end, the Japanese have a different way of doing things. It isn't better, it isn't worse, it is merely different. If people didn't do things differently, the world would be pretty boring.
 
China, India, etc. are manufacturing counties, not "independent thinking" industries that innovate. This is what the term western influence means... innovation and freedom of discovery and accepting of trial and error...

This is not to say they aren't hard working or have great work ethic, they are just brought up different with less Independence and freedom of expression. Japan is not far off from this. Just visit Japan, look at Japanese business as a whole, it's VERY tightly tied to traditions and rules of ediqut.

Just look at the Japanese game industry specificly... its biggest problem is it hasn't made a new game in 15 years... Always remaking the same games with the same stories... GT1 and FF7 were breakaways... what has had such broad market appeal since?

And I'm not insulting at all, I'm a HUGE Monster hunter fan... I wish it would pick up more out side of Japan...

Ok, just read the above... Yes, Ico and Shadow are FANTASTIC! But these games are far too few and infrequent... And not quite mass market but damn amazing experiences... Back to my original point though, look at all the resed up remake/re releases...
 
There is a fairly substantial architecture culture in Japan (and India and China as well) that would disagree with your 'non independent-thinking' claims. I will agree they do seem to have a more rigid society though.
 
blazor1
I find it quite ironic that the nation of Japan is "lacking the motivation."
The japanese are the most hardworking group of people I've ever come across, next to Chinese and Indians.

I do agree PD needs to broaden it's workplace in terms of geographical locations.
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I guess "the motivation" means the urge to innovate rather than to work hard. Working hard might not be same as working smart, right?
 
Stigsblkcousin
IMO, its like western developers are more in-tune with what GAMERS want, while eastern developers(mostly Kaz) easily gets caught up it what THEY want and totally forget about what would make gamers happy.
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I think, that's true to a point... But the best games are made by passionate people who can do what they want and show their point of view. If they made what "gamers" want. There would be nothing but Wii party games.
 
LOL. Coming from Americans who are busy developing Need for Speed 34874 [Hot|Extreme|Super] [Challenge|Pursuit|Racing|Driving] and Call of Duty 8786345 [Modern|World] [Warfare|Crisis|Battles|War]...

Atleast the Japanese have a better imagination and come up with weird and sometimes awesome fun games.....
 
Eunos_Cosmo
I think Japanese game developers produce the most interesting things (see shadow of the Colossus) while the VAST majority of western gaming franchises do nothing but borrow ideas from each other and end up creating clone after clone after ****** grand theft auto clone. That said, there are tons of ****E that isn't even available on our shores from the land of the rising sun, so it's hard to say for sure.
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You have to remember the endless rehash of Dynasty warriors/gundam musou/fist of the north star musou etc etc. that's pretty much balance things out.

oh, and rapelay. :nervous:
 
Here's my savage western viewpoint. Let PD model cars and tracks and get a western studio in to make a great game around these assets.

Sorry Kaz you got a lot right but you blew it on everything that resides outside the actual races. Race experience great. Game experience bad.
 
No. This generation of gaming is totally ruined for me by the dominance of western developers and their identikit kill this, kill that, kill everything else games.

The problem is that Japanese developers are lacking confidence in their own games and trying to mimic western games.

It makes me unhappy to look at the 95%+ ratio of Japanese games to under 5% of everyone else's games in my two previous generation consoles.
 
Tired Tyres
No. This generation of gaming is totally ruined for me by the dominance of western developers and their identikit kill this, kill that, kill everything else games.

The problem is that Japanese developers are lacking confidence in their own games and trying to mimic western games.

It makes me unhappy to look at the 95%+ ratio of Japanese games to under 5% of everyone else's games in my two previous generation consoles.
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Most japanese developers would never have a chance to release world wide best sellers because of the culture of Japan.

Take 24h for a walk through Tokio and you will see more Hello Kitty-stuff as in the rest of your continueing life.

Japan is an extreme funky pop-culture with preference for trash, toys and this kind of stuff (not mean to be an insult, it is like it is). So that is, why most japanese games are a world for its own and never find here in Europe or anywhere else, because they would not get any acception. Just lovers take a look and buy their games.

So to be very successful, they need to be west-orientated to sell their games out of Japan.

You see this trashy pop-culture in GT, too. Have a look at GT-Auto or the menus of previous GT-titles.

All in all, PD did a good job in creating acceptable and not exaggerated Japan-style games. But for future, I hope their games will get more serious and motorsport-orientated.

In my opinion, PD do not necessarily need a western designer in their team, but a designer, who shakes up and spices up the game concept of GT.

So because it acts stale slowly.
 
If you produce what gamers want you never move forward, you just open the envelope a little more.

If you produce the game you want, you can move the genre or style forward, or even generate your own.

The west makes better games but has made the same games for the past 10 years.

Japan has produced some of the most ground breaking and innovative games of all time.
 
If you want something unique, the Japanese game industry is the place it will come from. Games like the original Gran Turismo, the Mario series etc..

If you want a game that is slick, gratifying and not so frustrating in it's design concept you go Western, games like COD.

It would be interesting to see what kind of critique Gran Turismo is getting in the Japanese community, if they find the same things frustrating that we do or if it's a cultural thing that we find it so alien.
 
abaxas
Japan has produced some of the most ground breaking and innovative games of all time.
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That is correct.

But from another point of view, Japan also makes the same game-styles for the past 10 years. Every generation, even west or east, have its ground breaking innovations.

abaxas
The west makes better games but has made the same games for the past 10 years.
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I think it is not correct in every sense. The feeling of same game structure depends of strategies by developers. Take a famous or successful gameplay concept and make a game out of it is today´s strategy to sell games. Or to continue famous series (have a look at EA or Activision).

But to say there isn´t anything new is not right, because you always find something new.

To live the creativity and do, whatever you want can only be done when your publisher has this "Do whatever you do, just let it be good"-attitude (which is very rare).
 
I don't know if they need a 'western' influence, but you have to question the decisions this supposed 'perfectionist' (Kaz) makes when he decides this unfinished game is ready for consumption. I bet he was hoping the ham-fisted XP system would keep us all busy until he could cobble together some DLC or updates to patch it up. Wrong.

They were even given an open goal with the Top Gear track for a fun event and they still managed to screw it up!
 
Big Ron
Most japanese developers would never have a chance to release world wide best sellers because of the culture of Japan.

Take 24h for a walk through Tokio and you will see more Hello Kitty-stuff as in the rest of your continueing life.

Japan is an extreme funky pop-culture with preference for trash, toys and this kind of stuff (not mean to be an insult, it is like it is). So that is, why most japanese games are a world for its own and never find here in Europe or anywhere else, because they would not get any acception. Just lovers take a look and buy their games.

So to be very successful, they need to be west-orientated to sell their games out of Japan.

You see this trashy pop-culture in GT, too. Have a look at GT-Auto or the menus of previous GT-titles.

All in all, PD did a good job in creating acceptable and not exaggerated Japan-style games. But for future, I hope their games will get more serious and motorsport-orientated.

In my opinion, PD do not necessarily need a western designer in their team, but a designer, who shakes up and spices up the game concept of GT.

So because it acts stale slowly.
Click to expand...

I agree - They need to lose the cutesy stuff and get a bit more serious. GT and PS3 in general is a more an adult oriented product
 
Lada
I don't know if they need a 'western' influence, but you have to question the decisions this supposed 'perfectionist' (Kaz) makes when he decides this unfinished game is ready for consumption. I bet he was hoping the ham-fisted XP system would keep us all busy until he could cobble together some DLC or updates to patch it up. Wrong.

They were even given an open goal with the Top Gear track for a fun event and they still managed to screw it up!
Click to expand...


First of all, its no secret that Kaz didn't decide the game was done, Sony did(or we'd still be waiting), and the western influence would do just what you stated, question his decision making. Just have someone sit in on the focus groups and pow-wows just to step in and say, "I don't think thats gonna go over well with the masses."
 
All PD needs is for a few people to sit down and actually PLAY the damn game (having someone that actually understands racing wouldn't hurt either). What needs to be fixed will jump right out and slap them in the face.

It ain't rocket science. :)
 
abaxas
The west makes better games but has made the same games for the past 10 years.
Click to expand...

And so has Japan. The western companies produce loads of Need for Speeds, Call of Duties and sport games and Japan has been pushing stuff like Pokemon, billions of Super Mario or Sonic games out for decades.
And the west has made some quite influential, groundbraking games as well. StarCraft, Grand Theft Auto, Diablo, World of WarCraft for example. They've either been the prime game in their genre for years on end, sparked dozens of clones or revolutionised a complete genre on their own.

The same can be said for Japan, though. It's not that the west and Japan differ much in that regard, I think. Not in general, at least.

I don't really get where Kojima's quote, for example, comes from. In my opinion, it's not only the Japanese gaming industry that's starting to lack, it's the gaming industry as a whole.
When games that are targeted at soccer moms are the best sellers, you know there's something wrong. Games nowadays are mostly low-quality stuff that doesn't dare to challenge the player to show any skill or capability to think. We went from hard to handle, hard to master to easy to handle, hard to master and, by now, we're at a point where most games are easy to handle and easy to master.
At to that that a lot of different approaches towards gaming have been doscovered already and there is less and less that hasn't been done and it's becoming clear that games that can absolutely wow you are going to become rarer by the day.

While one can always hope for an odd game to come out and be as awesome as The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past or StarCraft, it's not going to happen on a regular basis...

To answer the initial question, though: I don't think PD needs more western influence. They just need someone in charge who's got a better understanding of time management and how to spend working hours more wisely. Like, not wasting them on details that can't be used and/or noticed 90% of the time and, instead, focus more on the important stuff.
 
I see where you're coming from, but disagree.

Yes it would seem that western developers focus more on the wants of the players, but taking that too far removes a certain artistic aspect from games. Granted, there are games that don't really need artistry at all, the best simulators are pretty much bare bones aesthetically and it doesn't detract from the experience.

However, with a game like GT, the aesthetic and atmosphere has always been one of the strongest elements of the game. If it were to lose that in favor of stepping up other areas to bring it on par with PC sims...I'd have no reason to play GT instead of a PC sim, and probably would just stick to LFS and iRacing and whatever else.

Now, and this is certainly not true of all developers, but by and large Western developers don't care about aesthetics or artistry in their games at all. It's obvious in the uninspired frontends and focus on photorealism. They're generally trying to emulate movies.

Japanese gaming has been leaving a lot to be desired lately, with a lot of stagnation and franchise milking, but there is still a higher ratio of really imaginative and genuinely artistic game design. When Japanese developers complain about the current state of Japanese game design, I feel that they're primarily looking at RPGs and SRPGs that haven't changed their formula since the 16bit era, especially compared to the Western style RPGs that have become more prevalent this generation with titles like Oblivion, Fallout and Borderlands.

While the mainstream titles are certainly behind the times for the most part (for better or for worse, but that's an entirely different discussion) the niche markets and truly innovative releases are still strong. People like Goichi Suda and Hideo Kojima (and exemption to my above assertion regarding mainstream titles) epitomize Japanese gaming development, and I feel like Yamauchi has done a great job with his franchise as well. It maintains the atmosphere that has existed since the first game, you always know you're playing GT, even if you're just in an option menu or on a pause screen, and that's the reason I love the series. People complain about the tracks looking too clean, or too perfect, but I've always felt that sort of super-realism is part of the GT aesthetic. Everything clean and vivid...many racing sims are indiscernible from one another at a glance when viewing a replay, but GT has always had this sort of sheen to it that makes it instantly recognizable.

So no, I don't think that GT should bring in western influence. Sure their product needs work in places, but they shouldn't try to turn it into something it's not.
 
Depends. A western influence as in people that know the different types of racing around the world and would help recreate these in GT5 then yes. Legit ALMS, F1, WRC, FIA GT, hell even NASCAR series with actual races recreated e.g. correct number of laps at each track and real pit strategies. That would be awesome.

A western influence that will just give the gamers what they ask for then no thanks. I generally cant stand games that have mass appeal, Call of Duty, Halo, those games don't do jack for me. My tastes rarely allign with the general populace. This why most of my favorite games are those made by innovative developers (Operation Flashpoint, Mount & Blade, Gran Turismo to name a few).
 
I concur completely with TakeshiSkunk. The problems with GT5 don't stem from a "too Japanese" point of view, but an overly corporate interfering (SONY) problem and a lack of focus due to SONY's intrusions and interruptions (GT PSP, 3D).

I agree that GT5 needs to be massaged back into a more motorsports-less MMORPG orientation through patching, and GT6 needs to return to the trends which culminated in GT4. This could be helped out a bit by seeking input from the more adroit motorsports people familiar with gaming, and who have some good ideas on how to splice the genes of real world motorsports into Gran Turismo. And by taking input from the more sensible-slash-visionary gamers who have a good grasp of the essence of Gran Turismo, and who have concepts compatible with Kazunori's vision for his ultimate GT game. I have a concept which has been simmering in my imagination since 2004. It does involve more western racing disciplines, such as DTM, BTCC and V8 Supercars, as well as more western cars in general, and this should happen.

But ultimately, I want GT to remain GT, and to be a game shaped by Kaz-sensei's vision, drive and artistic flavor. We already have a "western GT," and that's Forza.
 
I agree that it's not down to where or what country the influence has to come from, but definately Polyphony need to get some kind feedback from someone 'outside' of their way of thinking.

I used to do testing for a living, sometimes it's good to have feedback from someone who is not connected to the product or the company making the product because they are not influenced by the fear of upsettng someone, treading on someone's toes, denting an ego or have fear of any reprocussions if they make a negative comment, observation or opnion. Subsequently, they can advise in an unbiased way and often see things others can't or say things other wouldn't say.

I peronally think Polyphony have been complacent and are resting on their laurels too much. As mentioned in another thread, this was a good opportunity for Polyphony to put some distance between GT5 and Forza, now the shoe is on the other foot, Forza 4 has got the potential to embarress GT5 and that's something I never imagined I'd ever say.

Maybe it's a good thing though, it might shock Polyphony into changing their ways, which'll be better for Gran Turismo in the long term.
 

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