Do you think PD should bring some "Western" influnce into the development process?

[Lada]

First of all, its no secret that Kaz didn't decide the game was done, Sony did(or we'd still be waiting), and the western influence would do just what you stated, question his decision making. Just have someone sit in on the focus groups and pow-wows just to step in and say, "I don't think thats gonna go over well with the masses."

No way does Kaz get to escape blameless here. It wasn't as if Sony gave him a year to cobble this together (which is what it actually feels like). If PD can't deliver then either get them more help, or get rid of them.

The decisions of PD need questioned, as so far they have been pretty abysmal.

 

[BoneSawTX]

LOL. Coming from Americans who are busy developing Need for Speed 34874 [Hot|Extreme|Super] [Challenge|Pursuit|Racing|Driving] and Call of Duty 8786345 [Modern|World] [Warfare|Crisis|Battles|War]...

Atleast the Japanese have a better imagination and come up with weird and sometimes awesome fun games.....

and i'll say at least they have made changes in their games, GT5 doesn't feel to far removed from GT1 after playing for a month.

 

[Kumaclimber]

There is a really interesting thing on YouTube from mike Rowe of dirty jobs fame about innovation vs imitation it's fascinating. If I wasn't on my cell I would post a link.

 

[Wolfe]

No. This generation of gaming is totally ruined for me by the dominance of western developers and their identikit kill this, kill that, kill everything else games.

In Super Mario you kill goombas and koopa troopas. In Metroid you kill alien creatures. In Megaman you kill rogue robots. In Final Fantasy you kill anything that pops up in battle. In Ace Combat and Metal Gear Solid you kill enemy soldiers. In Pokémon you viciously attack your opponents' creatures until they "faint." In Street Fighter/Guilty Gear/Soul Calibur/Tekken/Virtua Fighter/Dead or Alive/King of Fighters you pummel your opponents to within an inch of their lives.

Since when have violence and killing not been a staple of videogames??

The problem is that Japanese developers are lacking confidence in their own games and trying to mimic western games.

I think this is the crux of the issue. There are certainly great Japanese games being made (and western ones, too -- I disagree with the notion that games from either region have been "stagnant" for ~10 years), but for once Japanese developers are looking at what other people are doing, and they're timidly attempting to integrate elements of what they see.

As far as GT5 is concerned, you can see this down to such details as the Forza-like track map on the HUD; even GT5rologue had the old GT-style map. Weather effects/rain may have been put on the to-do list after PGR4 came out. The first (popular) racing game to feature a day/night cycle was GRID. Interior views have historically been a feature of western games, not Japanese ones, and have recently become the standard based on games like PGR, Forza, TDU, and Codemasters titles. Damage, as we're all aware, was a reluctant concedence to fans, influenced by Forza 3.

As I typed that list, I hesitated because those are mostly basic things that every great racing game should have...but where were they until now?

----------------------------

Anyway, like Tired Tyres, I think the problem isn't a lack of western influence, but a lack of confidence. Though I would like to see PD and other developers pay attention to the west-developed FUEL. That method of road/terrain generation has been in use on flight sims for years, and has SO much potential for racing games. To be able to drive licensed BMWs and other roadcars on a sprawling network of public roads covering thousands of square miles...

 

[dabest2500]

No, otherwise we would get things like My Chemical Romance again.

 

[TakeshiSkunk]

In Super Mario you kill goombas and koopa troopas. In Metroid you kill alien creatures. In Megaman you kill rogue robots. In Final Fantasy you kill anything that pops up in battle. In Ace Combat and Metal Gear Solid you kill enemy soldiers. In Pokémon you viciously attack your opponents' creatures until they "faint." In Street Fighter/Guilty Gear/Soul Calibur/Tekken/Virtua Fighter/Dead or Alive/King of Fighters you pummel your opponents to within an inch of their lives.

Since when have violence and killing not been a staple of videogames??

You've either completely missed his point or chose to ignore it based on how it was phrased. He wasn't criticizing the violence but rather the repetitive and uninspired nature of popular genres.

 

[Destinkeys]

All PD needs is for a few people to sit down and actually PLAY the damn game (having someone that actually understands racing wouldn't hurt either). What needs to be fixed will jump right out and slap them in the face.

It ain't rocket science.

This, in a nutshell. Play the game FROM THE BEGINNING. No unlocked save games, no garage full of cars. Play it like we HAVE to. Kaz has NEVER done this, nor I doubt any senior staffer at PD. They lost the forest for the trees.

I also think the OP has gotten it turned around backwards, at least in regard to GT5. PD DID bring out an utterly new game, with the slashing of the A-Spec and the deification of B-Spec, Most of the cherished things from GT4 got axed, in favor of new gameplay paths, and it is obvious that it was an epic fail. They tried to re-invent the wheel, and forgot that making it round was priority #1...

What did the vast majority of GT4 fans want? GT4, but leveraged for the PS3. More tracks, more cars, more events, weather, time of day, but all of these things only ADDED to GT4. Not a complete reinvention with B-Spec taking over as the only way to not mindlessly grind your way to the next level or car. Not unless you could do it from work via your browser, anyway!

I don't see listening to your fan base as a particularly Western thing. But I do think that reflecting your sales demographic in the choice of cars and tracks is good sense. But you don't need to be Western to understand that, either.

GT5 CAN be patched back to glory. Whether it IS is probably the determining factor in the franchise's continued success.

 

[Wolfe]

You've either completely missed his point or chose to ignore it based on how it was phrased. He wasn't criticizing the violence but rather the repetitive and uninspired nature of popular genres.

And you've either completely missed the nature of my contribution to this topic or chose to ignore it based on how I compared classic Japanese titles to Gears of Duty Warfare 7: Blood and Guts in Brown Bloom Town.

The games I mentioned are no different aside from being extra colorful and having strange character/creature designs. Videogames, for the most part, are "kill this, kill that, kill everything else games." Just because Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto choose a realistic graphics style doesn't necessarily make them repetitive and uninspired. And we've moved past the "new WWII game every two months" period, so even the most mindless shooters are exploring new things.

The big-name shooters enjoy big-name popularity, but they hardly "represent" western videogames.

 

[Krizzay]

I find it quite ironic that the nation of Japan is "lacking the motivation."
The japanese are the most hardworking group of people I've ever come across, next to Chinese and Indians.

I do agree PD needs to broaden it's workplace in terms of geographical locations.

And that is the problem imho. Too much pressure will make you burn out sooner or later, all the creativity gone, believe me, I've been there. It's hard to get motivated at that point.

 

[Spagetti69]

Is GT global? I think it is or wants to be.
If they want European, Australian, American cars etc.

Then shouldn't it be a global influence?
I'm sure PD listen to their fanbase but rarely respond.
Maybe there's a loss in translation from fans to developers.
Hell, even coming here I can't figure out what people want.

 

[Destinkeys]

Why did GT5 NEED 'creativity'?

It needed execution. It did not get it.

But after the epic fail of GT5, the only execution needed is of the game's staff! Seppuku is too good for them! Make them play GT5 B-Spec until boredom kills them! I know, I know, it's too cruel... but what else should those who inflicted B-Spec on US deserve?!

 

[TakeshiSkunk]

The big-name shooters enjoy big-name popularity, but they hardly "represent" western videogames.

I'm honestly not so sure about that. I'm not trying to start a fight or call you out or anything, but I honestly do believe that games like CoD, GoW, TF2, Halo, L4D and a few others do represent present day western gaming. Forza, Codemasters' newer games, and EA's sports franchises fill out what is spotlighted as Western Video Games. Sure that's not all western developers produce, but it is the majority.

 

[BeardOfChuck]

The same thing happened with Sony a few years ago. They completely lost it. Thinking the ps3 would sail on with the success of the PS2. After 2 years Sony finally started to listen to what the people want. And look at them now. They are doing miles better than not to long ago. They started off with a way over-priced console (or maybe not overpriced, but to much new tech), used stupid, rather scary promotional video's, didn't have many games, to much promises. Gt5 was one of them (just like Home etc.).

Now what PD needs to turn things back around, is do it like they did with GT4, but also pay more attention to the gamers feedback. For example, this forum would be a GREAT place for them to look at what the western world expects. There are people here from the USA, Brazil, whole Europe. Kaz himself should log in to this forum, and actually discus what we want and if we like or don't like something.

But Sony did something wrong to. They announced it WAAAAYYYY to early, and pushed 3D and GTPSP. GTPSP wasn't a very big hit, and i haven't seen ANYONE wanting to buy a 3DTV because of GT5. So both things were quite a waste of time. And the delay fiasco was just pathetic.

I think Sony should give them more money for a bigger team. So they can produce those cars faster. Also PD and Sony should take a look at some western designers. Maybe look for some western designers to put in their team. Some CODEMASTERS in their time should do wonders I think...

Bottom line, more attention to the fans and gamers.

 

[WRXLENT]

Atleast the Japanese have a better imagination and come up with weird and sometimes awesome fun games.....

That's just it, weird!! Now that's not always a bad thing, but it is a fact. Just look at Japanese pop culture. It really is different to the rest of the world.

I think this different way of thinking is responsible for the reasoning that Button Spec is fun, or that 18 confirmations on whether you really want that air filter is required, or that 6 months to exactly model a car's inner door handles that you never see is a valuable use of time, or whether setting you up to drive multiple 24 hour races without saving is a good idea....

They DEFINITELY need some high level Western influence in that team. But, it would have to be the right person, so they could guide certain areas, but leave other areas alone.

 

[Destinkeys]

This is the same culture that essentially got it spot on in GT4. There's been no cultural shift since then. Japanese pop culture has ALWAYS been weird, but it didn't stop them from getting GT4 right.

You don't need to look much further than to watch Kaz spend more time on the REAL Nürbergring or ice racing, or whatever his enthusiasms extend to these days, than he does playing his OWN game. That I have enabled him to continue ignoring his job while he continues to spend time on his hobbies makes me sick to my stomach...

It's all MY fault!

 

[ac3h01e]

LOL. Coming from Americans who are busy developing Need for Speed 34874 [Hot|Extreme|Super] [Challenge|Pursuit|Racing|Driving] and Call of Duty 8786345 [Modern|World] [Warfare|Crisis|Battles|War]...

Atleast the Japanese have a better imagination and come up with weird and sometimes awesome fun games.....

Oh yeah I mean Uncharted, Borderlands, Fallout, Infamous, Half Life, Portal, Brutal Legend, GTA 4 (people do try and copy it and they always fail) nope nothing original there at all.

And yes I do buy a new COD pretty much every time they come out, WaW withstanding, because I really dig their multiplayer, same goes for Halo and Gears of War.

 

[niky]

I think that the issue is not whether Western games are more original than Japanese games, but rather whether any of the major games are original at all.

We're stuck in a rut, here in the 21st Century. Many of our best-selling games are sequels of previous best-selling games. Many of our best-selling movies are sequels or remakes. Disco and techno (or rave, if you prefer) are back in. Originality is at a premium.

As a culture, we've been living in the TV age for six decades, in the video game age for four, and in the internet age for two and a half or so. It's getting hard to come up with absolutely new ideas that absolutely no one has thought of before.

Japanese RPGs are derivative... from Final Fantasy to Pokemon they follow a predictable path. American RPGs are no better, with everything from Diablo to WOW following the same basic AD&D rules and tropes. Survival Horror is all cliches. So are shooters. There are exceptions to both, but "Fatal Frames" and "Descents" are few and far between. But that's a disease common to gaming. Someone stumbles a successful formula, and it's repeated ad nauseum. The place we're seeing originality on nowadays is on mobile devices like the iPad. That's because the tropes and cliches haven't been fully fleshed out for these devices yet.

-----

But this isn't the problem with Turismo. And this isn't what needs "Western" influence. The "Western" influence needed is for subordinates to have the ability to say "no"... or at least say "let's try this another way."

Japanese, like many Asians, tend to suffer a bit from being too polite. There's no drive to disagree with the boss or to put forward different agendas. While this type of group-think has enabled them to churn out high quality work that's only possible with many different minds with one concrete goal (Japanese hand-drawn animation is still rather tough to beat), it makes groups more an extension of their leader than... well... groups. If you want to see where this has gone horribly wrong... look at the Toyota fiasco from some years ago. Communication that does not propogate properly through the organization, because of bureaucracy and protocols of etiquette can have dangerous consequences.

Not that American game companies have it perfect. It's entirely possible to take editing and revisionism to a problematic level. See NFS:SHIFT, a game with a terrific game engine and a great premise seemingly ruined by "design-by-committee", where the final product seems hampered by a philosophy of compromise. (This is opinion. It's anyone's guess as to how and why SHIFT1 ended up the way it did)

I suppose there's a fine balance to be found between the two. It's likely that Polyphony Digital has not found that balance. In fact, Gran Turismo is a game that has always seemed like it was developed in a vacuum. As Wolfe has noted, they seem to be reacting to outside influences... but really, these new features may simply be things that they have always wanted buy were unable to add.

This is both the genius and the downfall of Gran Turismo. It may not always get the cliches right, but it will always have a flavor uniquely its own.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

Same more of the old stuff is not necessarily a bad thing. If worked in the past, it might still work in the present with a few modifications. I think PD tried to add to much new and so what we got was a lot of a variety, but severely restricted versions of those variations. We have NASCAR, WRC and Super GT, yet the game makes no proper use of those licenses. We have photomode, but it is limited to only 200 cars. There is car customization, but it is severely limited.

 

[machschnel]

Just finished the Grand Valley Enduro on B-Spec. $54 000 for winning a two hour event. Where's the incentive? I can B-Spec one of the Extreme rounds at close to $100 000 every thirty minutes.

Bad game design knows no race.

 

[Lawndart]

I think that the issue is not whether Western games are more original than Japanese games, but rather whether any of the major games are original at all.

We're stuck in a rut, here in the 21st Century. Many of our best-selling games are sequels of previous best-selling games. Many of our best-selling movies are sequels or remakes. Disco and techno (or rave, if you prefer) are back in. Originality is at a premium.

As a culture, we've been living in the TV age for six decades, in the video game age for four, and in the internet age for two and a half or so. It's getting hard to come up with absolutely new ideas that absolutely no one has thought of before.

Japanese RPGs are derivative... from Final Fantasy to Pokemon they follow a predictable path. American RPGs are no better, with everything from Diablo to WOW following the same basic AD&D rules and tropes. Survival Horror is all cliches. So are shooters. There are exceptions to both, but "Fatal Frames" and "Descents" are few and far between. But that's a disease common to gaming. Someone stumbles a successful formula, and it's repeated ad nauseum. The place we're seeing originality on nowadays is on mobile devices like the iPad. That's because the tropes and cliches haven't been fully fleshed out for these devices yet.

-----

But this isn't the problem with Turismo. And this isn't what needs "Western" influence. The "Western" influence needed is for subordinates to have the ability to say "no"... or at least say "let's try this another way."

Japanese, like many Asians, tend to suffer a bit from being too polite. There's no drive to disagree with the boss or to put forward different agendas. While this type of group-think has enabled them to churn out high quality work that's only possible with many different minds with one concrete goal (Japanese hand-drawn animation is still rather tough to beat), it makes groups more an extension of their leader than... well... groups. If you want to see where this has gone horribly wrong... look at the Toyota fiasco from some years ago. Communication that does not propogate properly through the organization, because of bureaucracy and protocols of etiquette can have dangerous consequences.

Not that American game companies have it perfect. It's entirely possible to take editing and revisionism to a problematic level. See NFS:SHIFT, a game with a terrific game engine and a great premise seemingly ruined by "design-by-committee", where the final product seems hampered by a philosophy of compromise. (This is opinion. It's anyone's guess as to how and why SHIFT1 ended up the way it did)

I suppose there's a fine balance to be found between the two. It's likely that Polyphony Digital has not found that balance. In fact, Gran Turismo is a game that has always seemed like it was developed in a vacuum. As Wolfe has noted, they seem to be reacting to outside influences... but really, these new features may simply be things that they have always wanted buy were unable to add.

This is both the genius and the downfall of Gran Turismo. It may not always get the cliches right, but it will always have a flavor uniquely its own.

When you say "Descents" are you referring to the 1995 Interplay published PC game?

 

[danben7]

I find it quite ironic that the nation of Japan is "lacking the motivation."
The japanese are the most hardworking group of people I've ever come across, next to Chinese and Indians.
.

Chinese and Indians aren't hardworking, it's just that there's so many of them. You just notice the hardworking ones, which are probably a typical percentage of the population.

 

[danben7]

Look how badly Capcom have been ruined by western influence, all their games are **** now

 

[niky]

When you say "Descents" are you referring to the 1995 Interplay published PC game?

Yup. At the time it was a new and unique take on first-person shooters, combining the maze-crawl of Quake-style shooters with the freedom of movement afforded by space-shooters.

FreeSpace was a more traditional spin-off, but it did have the advantage of pushing the hardware available at the time to give you truly huge "bosses".

 

[Mr. Knife]

Here's my savage western viewpoint. Let PD model cars and tracks and get a western studio in to make a great game around these assets.

Sorry Kaz you got a lot right but you blew it on everything that resides outside the actual races. Race experience great. Game experience bad.

This:tup:

 

[Fusion]

I think they need a western influence to better balance content and better deliver content/events based around the IP's they have aquired.

I don't agree that Japan is any less innovative than the west though. Both are guilty of less than inspiring and monotonous rehashes of popular series.

What I'd like to see is more innovative and fresh IP's like qhat quanticdream always bring forth.... recently with heavy rain. Rockstar have done similar with Red Dead Redemption besides it being a GTA clone at heart. Also, their upcoming L.A. Noire looks quite innovative. None of this innovation will help the GT series though. They just need to go back to core dynamics IMO - as well as adding new things in ways that are more seemless and integrated than what has been done in GT5.

 

[budious]

I think all this game needed was some proper project management, an outsider appointed by Sony to make sure the game had direction and was meeting regular milestones instead of being Kaz's ongoing pet project.

 

[Lawndart]

Yup. At the time it was a new and unique take on first-person shooters, combining the maze-crawl of Quake-style shooters with the freedom of movement afforded by space-shooters.

FreeSpace was a more traditional spin-off, but it did have the advantage of pushing the hardware available at the time to give you truly huge "bosses".

Oh yes I know it well, it just struck me odd as I don't frequently hear it used as a reference these days... But I still talk about it very frequently... as I was the Line producer on that game back in 94... it was the first game I officially worked on... I still play around with the "Deamon" Editor once in a great while...

 

[Raitziger]

They should first try to make basics work right. Like menu system speed, you can not test drive cars, sounds are not good enough...
and not waste efforts on stupid things like 3d, PS-eye head movement and GPS track things.

 

[StevenDunn99]

Sorry Kaz you got a lot right but you blew it on everything that resides outside the actual races. Race experience great. Game experience bad.

This is all that needs to be said.

We have all said it but in different ways on this and other threads. I am not even going to say US or UK = good and JPN = bad. All I know is, Kaz and PD need a new boss or PD do the engine and someone else does the wrapper.

 

[risuku13]

This is because of the "cycle". Sometimes a company, or nation (collectively) would be more ahead of the game than others. Every dog has its day. Now based on the quotations from Hideo Kojima and Keiji Inafune, its up for PD (and Japanese developers/designers in general) to get their act together. *cough* Quantum Theory */cough*