Lap time inconsistencies

  • Thread starter polizei
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polizei

polizei

1,068
United States
Raleigh, NC
booch16
In a number of different threads we have discussed a problem with the online play. It seems that people can often run much faster lap times during practice sessions versus race sessions. Have other people experienced, what appears to be, inconsistencies with the physics/grip/etc. during practice and race laps?

Or is this all in my head and I just choke during races? :scared:
 
One of the events that Poliezi is referring to was a MNE event: 44-lap race at Fuji Speedway F between the 4 premium GT300 cars. Finished a full field of 16 with no aids, light damage, no penalties, false start, real grip reduction, and tire wear / fuel consumption on. The conversation regarding the lap time problem starts here. It appears that about half of the participants noticed a significant change in lap times from practice and the other half did not. We had 2 people pit on back-to-back laps because they thought they accidentally put sport tires on instead of racing. 1 guy parked it because he was so frustrated.

Personally I didn't experience this phenomenon during the race. My best lap in-race was bang on my best lap qualifying. However, I almost always have inconsistent lap times (usually my best lap is early on and I get progressively slower throughout a race) and this happened to me during this race. Also, not sure if this made any difference but I was the race host.
 
Another first-hand experience was in during a Cappuccino RM series race. A small group (CIAFlux, NingDynasty, and myself) were practicing on Cape Ring South in my lounge that I was hosting. When we switched to the room hosting the race, i found that i couldn't get within 4-5 seconds of the lap times i posted in my room. I'm curious if latency (lag) can affect recorded lap times or if there are other variables i am unaware of (yes i know the most unpredictable variable is the driver). As a gamer and car enthusiast it is very frustrating to get different results from what seems to be the same input :mad:

Edit: just want to add that we were all using the same cars in practice and race, and that CIAFlux and Ningdynasty appeared to post lap times only 1-2 seconds off our practice session in my lobby versus my 5 second difference. Which makes me wonder if latency has an impact on race times. It is also hard to tell because there is no indication of the quality of the connection you have to the race host. It seems to be all or nothing, as a regularly get dropped after 20-30 minutes in a lobby.
 
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Fairness is the most important part of online racing. In the end, who really cares if online and offline physics are different if everyone in an online lobby is racing on an even playing field, so-to-speak? Well, what seems to be happening is that in a single race some people are experiencing slower lap times and others are not, and that is definitely not an even playing field any longer.

EDIT: Everyone who I spoke to about the issue could rule out race traffic as a cause of slow lap times.
 
In post #3 Poliezi points out that his lap differences occured while practicing in his online lounge then moving to a race hosted by another racer in another lounge.

The same fast-practice slow-race experience occurred while practicing in my lounge pre-race and racing in my lounge for the MNE race I cited above. So it's been documented now that the problem can occur even within the same lounge, as well as between different lounges.

And if it wasn't already stated, all settings were the same pre-race and in-race.
 
Here's something to think about:

Every time I've experienced this type of phenomenon, it's been in a lounge. Although my time in the race lobbies (through open lobby) has been less, I haven't noticed this happening in the open lobbies/numbered rooms. Has anyone experienced this in a numbered room?
 
Also had this in lounges, one of my friends' tracks on Mt Aso is where I have majorly noticed it. It's a fairly straight track with only two corners to brake on, we use the Ford Falcon XR8 Race Car and my fastest lap around the track was a 49.7xx. My friend claimed he had run a low 48 but I had doubts because he has yet to be any competition to me in any room we're both in and knowing that I'm only ever 2 seconds at the most from the top people on the TT leaderboards and he has never been within 3 seconds of me I was confident that I he was incorrect. The other night he and I got together in his lounge on the same track,same cars, I had the same tune and on top of that I knew that since the last time I ran on that track my tuning skills had improved at least two-fold. After about 20 laps I had only achieved a 51.4xx and it felt that taking almost 2 seconds off my time was not possible in the car. It was strange and very annoying and is causing me to question the whole game with not knowing what these effects are and where they take place. This is a HUGE HUGE HUGE issue that needs to be addressed by PD as I feel even after my unwavering loyalty and faith in them that this will ultimately push me away from GT5.
 
I haven't done much experimentation with open lobbies/numbered rooms, but i will be paying more attention this weekend. It would be interesting if there is a difference. Ultimately the game is about having fun and flaws like this need to be looked into and addressed by the developer/publisher. If i am at a disadvantage every race because i don't have an amazing connection it will affect my decision to play this game and possibly any future GT games.
 
I have not noticed a difference between online practice and online race. I have noticed a large difference between offline practice and online practice. In the spec miata series for which I've been practicing, it can be almost a 2s difference at a track like Laguna Seca.
 
spdu4ea
I have not noticed a difference between online practice and online race. I have noticed a large difference between offline practice and online practice. In the spec miata series for which I've been practicing, it can be almost a 2s difference at a track like Laguna Seca.
Click to expand...

that's a well-documented issue Offline vs. Online Physics

I think the problem is probably connection related, as i have a fairly crappy connection at the moment. Wireless connection shared with 2-3 PCs and another PS3 to a router then to my cable modem isn't the best connection by any means. It just seems odd because i rarely have any problems when playing a FPS and i can't imagine GT5 needing more network resources than COD:MW2 or BLOPS or Battlefield 1943. Maybe it's just crappy untested coding? Looking at the track record for MP games released in the past year or two there is a trend towards more and more issues with getting MP to work at the release date and for some time to come. MW2, for example, is way better at getting a good-stable connection than when it was first released.
 
I'm doubting this is actually a connection-related issue, because I'm on a connection with an incredibly stable and fairly low ping. I mean, I'm able to race with people from the UK on a regular basis and even then rarely have latency issues.
 
Well this makes me feel better I thought I was going crazy. I've seen this before when I was less experienced and didn't think much of it, but it happened tonight. I entered a room tonight hosted by someone else using a fixed connection and I was all over the place and didn't understand why. I had racing tires on but they felt like sports. My braking distances were noticeably longer than usual. I immediately went and made my own room online, on the same track with the same settings (tire wear, edge/off track grip level, damage, etc) and I was able to take corners much faster since I had much more grip. I do think that once in a while there is something glitchy going on that changes the level of traction between people.
 
I was in that race that bend a and polizei was in Monday and my time was 5 to 10 seconds off in the race v qualifying. I don't mind it as long as everyone is treated the same.

Generally race time should be faster than qualifying because of draft.

I believe it is based on connection speed and ps3 processing speed. I am going yo clear put my ps3 cache and see what happens.
 
Problem is, for people that search for every tenth of a second and know what times they should be running and know they should be able to keep within 0.3-0.5 seconds consistently each lap finding that their whole racing line, breaking points, grip thresholds and cornering speeds are totally off and this is horrible for people trying to improve either their skills or times.
 
I just stumbled across this thread in the tuning sub-forum. Someone has theorized that there is a fuel weight penalty that comes into play in-race but is not occurring during practice. Very good read, and people are starting to confirm his theory.


budious
I've always noticed that despite any adjustments I make to my car, that it will always post peak lap times at around 75% fuel capacity on fresh tires in endurance mode. So how can this be?

The thought occurs to me that PD must utilize a fixed ballast system that is implemented to add approximately 25% of a tank of fuel weight to the car. Why would they do this? If cars were tuned and only optimized by drivers when tire wear and fuel consumption was off, then all cars would ideally be nearest their potential and become progressively worse as the tank emptied; despite even some reasonable tuners who make have take into consideration, the easy fix is to implement a single idiot proof handicap to maximize the range of the expected handling closer to 50%.

How is this achieved? Consider your car is optimized with tire wear and fuel consumption off, then it should be produce identical lap times on the first lap of an endurance race at curb weight. However, it does not. The best lap times will be achieved after a pit stop for new tires but not filling the tank near 75% tank capacity.

Why does this occur? PD has implemented a fixed ballast weight (assuming 19KG of 75% of 100L or ~76KG of fuel) at the same position as that of the fuel cell on the car. What is the benefit on this? This produces the illusion that handling is slightly under expectation between 76-100% of fuel capacity, that peak occurs around 75%, and handling remains predictable if not a little off pace from 74-50% fuel capacity. If this ballast was not in place then equivalent (not necessarily peak) lap times with non-endurance mode should be produced.

So what is the "glitch" you speak of? The fixed ballast implement by PD appears to have an override when a user defined ballast is in place, if you install a 1KG ballast at any position on the car (0 to +25 recommend) then the car will immediately gain back a significant portion of the time difference at 100% fuel capacity in endurance mode in comparison to curb weight in non-endurance mode.

A small time discrepancy still exists but the gap is much smaller, indicating that an offset ballast is a large influence on the differences in handling and lap times between the modes. The other factors probably have to do with tire wear physics; and additionally, when online, network update frequencies.

So example car A:

51.3" lap times on Tsukuba with tire wear off in My Lounge.
52.3" lap times on Tsukuba with tire wear on in My Lounge.
51.7" lap times on Tsukuba with tire wear on and 1KG user defined ballast in My Lounge.

I'd be interested to see if others can replicate this phenomenon or if it is just me looking too hard for ghosts in the machine. Let me know if this works for you.
Click to expand...
 
Are these Race lap times or time trials in a lobby that the times differ?

In Practice you dont have Tire wear, it could be something with that.
 
Its a fact that racing in Your own PRIVATE lobby the tires
don´t warm up like in OPEN LOUNGE.👍 about 2 sec slower
times on for ex. Laguna Seca.

Thats a shame, cause You always have to go practicing
for a race to OPEN LOUNGE which is full of idiots entering
the room named "PRIVATE, JOIN=KICK".:ouch:
(you cant set the players to 1 in Open Lounge).
 
tissimo
Are these Race lap times or time trials in a lobby that the times differ?

In Practice you dont have Tire wear, it could be something with that.
Click to expand...

These are pre-race vs. race lap times differing in a lounge with tire wear and realistic grip reduction ON. We're not talking about Practice mode - it's already been well-documented that the offline Practice mode is completely different from online.
 
benda18
I just stumbled across this thread in the tuning sub-forum. Someone has theorized that there is a fuel weight penalty that comes into play in-race but is not occurring during practice. Very good read, and people are starting to confirm his theory.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's a weird way of doing things. I need to re-read that thread to understand what they are talking about. I don't understand the 50% and 75% he is talking about.

This could also explain why adjusting the ballast in my Cappuccino made dramatic effects on my lap times. Anywhere from .5-1.5 second improvements depending on the track. And also why my Nissan March was dominating when we did the sprint races.
 
polizei
Wow, that's a weird way of doing things. I need to re-read that thread to understand what they are talking about. I don't understand the 50% and 75% he is talking about.

This could also explain why adjusting the ballast in my Cappuccino made dramatic effects on my lap times. Anywhere from .5-1.5 second improvements depending on the track. And also why my Nissan March was dominating when we did the sprint races.
Click to expand...
Yeah I've read through a few times now and it's a lot to digest.

I just typed out a huge response but as I was going through it my head started to hurt.
 
one question: What is endurance mode? Does he just mean in any race with more than a few laps where pitting is required?
 
polizei
one question: What is endurance mode? Does he just mean in any race with more than a few laps where pitting is required?
Click to expand...
Yeah I think he just means any race that's long enough where fuel levels will diminish noticeably.
 
polizei
one question: What is endurance mode? Does he just mean in any race with more than a few laps where pitting is required?
Click to expand...

I think Endurance mode is the A spec endurance events since tire wear and fuel use are "on" (unlike every other A spec events).
 
RamoSapiens
Its a fact that racing in Your own PRIVATE lobby the tires
don´t warm up like in OPEN LOUNGE.👍 about 2 sec slower
times on for ex. Laguna Seca.

Thats a shame, cause You always have to go practicing
for a race to OPEN LOUNGE which is full of idiots entering
the room named "PRIVATE, JOIN=KICK".:ouch:
(you cant set the players to 1 in Open Lounge).
Click to expand...
Hmm, I was wonder why my tires never heated up doing practice for the Le Mans race. Do you think tire wear is different since it seems the whole thing is different. Guess I'll practice in an open lounge tonight.
Ruta
These are pre-race vs. race lap times differing in a lounge with tire wear and realistic grip reduction ON. We're not talking about Practice mode - it's already been well-documented that the offline Practice mode is completely different from online.
Click to expand...
I would expect Race times to be slower then a Time Trial run to be honest. You're looking in the mirriors and worried about other drivers vs just focusing on hitting the apexes. If you're talking a single car races vs pre-race then there might be something? Either way to quit because a few seconds off your qualifying is simply childish.
 
tissimo
I would expect Race times to be slower then a Time Trial run to be honest. You're looking in the mirriors and worried about other drivers vs just focusing on hitting the apexes. If you're talking a single car races vs pre-race then there might be something? Either way to quit because a few seconds off your qualifying is simply childish.
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more - your lap times should be faster in-race because of drafting, and if you are the lone car on your area of the track with new tires after a pit, you should be putting down about the same lap times in-race that you put down pre-race before and after your tires were warmed up. Having those exact same times being 5-10 seconds slower when the conditions were, as far as you knew, the same can be quite frustrating. By the way, nobody ever said anything about quitting because of slower lap times. About half the field experienced it in the MNE race Benda was talking about, and one person parked it about 30-something laps in of the 44 after being so frustrated with what was going on.
 
tissimo
I would expect Race times to be slower then a Time Trial run to be honest. You're looking in the mirriors and worried about other drivers vs just focusing on hitting the apexes. If you're talking a single car races vs pre-race then there might be something? Either way to quit because a few seconds off your qualifying is simply childish.
Click to expand...

we were noticing huge differences between race and practice laps under similar conditions: no traffic, fresh tires. Obviously traffic can have an impact on your lap time both positive and negative so we weren't comparing those. But we were noticing different lap times and the handling of the car was obviously impacted by something. I think the fuel weight penalty (for lack of a better term) is the best theory so far as to why we noticed discrepancies in our lap times.
 
I experienced this also at Eiger short track the other day. I qualified 3rd with a 1:13 and Sohn qualified 2nd with a similar time. The pole sitter had a 1:12. After things settled down and i was passed by half the pack the best i could do was a 1:19. Sohn experienced the same thing while the pole sitter continued to run 1:12s.

I dont know if maybe my brake pedal was stuck or something but people were blowing by me like i was standing still on the uphill straight.
 

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