Performance Point system fails because of...

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chuyler1

chuyler1

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chuyler1
1) Tires -- skinny vs wide

Whether you set a tire restriction or let everyone race on racing soft tires, certain cars have more grip on any tire than other cars on the same tire. It's not a weight issue, its a contact patch issue. If you take two cars that are the same weight and roughly the same power, the car that would've come with wider tires from the factory will always have an edge in corners. Even with a perfect tune, if the car came with skinny tires it won't hold the same line. Before you say "try camber"...I have and it didn't help.

2) Power Band -- its not just about max torque/hp

Two cars with the same weight/hp/torque do not accelerate at the same speed. Running a 2 liter commuter car with a stage 3 turbo against a N/A sports car produces two totally different power bands. Even though they have the same specs on paper, the power bands are different. The commuter car would need 20-30 more performance points allowed to run similar lap times. So if you want to win races, you can't over-mod a car and run with the big boys.


These two factors cause a huge disparity between cars that are supposed to be at the same performance point level. At first I just thought cars were getting and advantage on certain tracks. But then I started driving the cars that were beating me. With very little tuning they were sometimes 5-10 seconds quicker per lap on some of my favorite tracks. How could this be? The only answer I have is that PD massively failed with the PP system. I guess if you want close competition, you'll just have to stick with same make/model racing.

I think i'd be more satisfied with the PP system if it were based on typical car specs like 0-60mph, 0-120mph, cornering Gs, and slalom times. Simulating them can't be too difficult and it would provide closer performing cars. It may also allow for accounting for tuning changes like transmission gearing.
 
You can still have a close race if you put boost up. I usually don't have trouble performance points wise like you say except if someone pulls out a NSX.
 
This magical performance point system is horrible.

A power to weight comparison is how it happens in the real world, and I was hoping that with this PP system PD figured out a way to eliminate the numerous problems in a power to weight comparison, but unfortunately, they haven't. It appears as if they've created a power to weight comparison that is somehow worse than it normally would be?

The PP system is 100% pointless aside from being used as a tool to keep ridiculously over powered cars from entering races. Note the term... ridiculously.
 
GT5 physics ignores contact patch in corners so it's a non issue.

Latter example ignores race transmission and different types of tracks.

PP is a good system and works for better than power/weight ever did/could.
 
Yawn another one? PP is just there as a rough guideline, you can use your brain for the rest of it. Perhaps PD should have left the tires how they were being part of the PP equation that would sort this out as you would still have to do more to make your car a little equal.

Common sense dictates that if you thought that you could beat Dodge Viper with a '69 Challenger even with same PP, won't happen. Not only are the tires an issue the entire build of the car is at issue, the technology used to make the Challenger is ancient and garbage, structurally that block wouldn't corner, brake or accelerate well. Not to talk about the horrible powerband and to get any use out of those gears requires serious final ratio optimizations.

PP is just a guideline and many cars will just be naturally better than other cars even though PP is the same. Still PP is much better than just the dumb ass hp and weight restrictions, those are much worse to the point of being useless. PP races at least you stand a chance of competing. Now only if PD would add RC/RM restrictions to online lobbies, tired of these people who can't read production only.

Exorcet
GT5 physics ignores contact patch in corners so it's a non issue.

Latter example ignores race transmission and different types of tracks.

PP is a good system and works for better than power/weight ever did/could.
Click to expand...

Care to elaborate, as I have found cars with skinny tires do not hold very well while cornering hard, compared to a car with wider tires running similar weight and power. That would make little sense that all of a sudden GT5 physics would cop out when you corner then snap back on when you are out of a corner...where did you get this information from. I am very interested in this.
 
Exorcet
GT5 physics ignores contact patch in corners so it's a non issue.

Latter example ignores race transmission and different types of tracks.

PP is a good system and works for better than power/weight ever did/could.
Click to expand...

👍

Honestly I've run some very odd but very close races with the PP system (last one was '61 E-Type versus '90 ZR-1.) Never would have thought to pair them but they were actually a close race.

Running through a simulation would probably provide a marginally more accurate rating, but I certainly wouldn't say it fails. If it failed I wouldn't be running consistly close (under 1 second of separation) races online with it.
 
Yup, the NSX is a perfect example. I typically host a 450pp room and if someone shows up in an NSX on a fast track they'll be 2-3 seconds quicker per lap than any other non-NSX. If it's a tight track, the Lotus Elise gets the nod because it barely warms up the tires running double the speed through some chicanes. Compare that to an '86 MR2 that weighs the same as the Elise and you'll hear the tires screaming for help on every turn.

As for "Boost" being the solution. The problem is that boost makes cars too fast and drivers think they can overtake in places where there is really only one driving line. If you play it safe and wait for a place to pass, someone at the back will try to get around you and push you off the track. Boost simply doesn't keep cars in check the way a good spec race does. ...and I don't want the guy who causes a pileup in turn 1 to catch up and do it over and over again.

Boost doesn't punish bad driving and performance points don't reward good driving unless you're in one of a handful of fast cars in a given pp class.
 
chuyler1
Boost doesn't punish bad driving and performance points don't reward good driving unless you're in one of a handful of fast cars in a given pp class.
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What are these handfuls of fast cars besides the NSX and Elise? [Which don't seem to be all that game breaking since you say they'll only win easily on certain types of tracks].

I was in a PP limited Super GT room the other day, after winning a race and qualifying on pole for the next race, someone claimed that the NSX was faster than the GT-R [which most people were using]. I switched to the GT-R and set nearly the exact same lap time. This is fairly typical of PP races I enter.

Then there was the case where I entered a hp and weight limited production car race. If you didn't have a McLaren F1 or Amuse S2000, you lost. I had a few cars perfectly matched to the power/weight, but they were grossly inferior. PP would have definitely hit the S2000 because of downforce. I'm not sure what made the F1 so fast, I didn't drive it in that race, but given that PP takes more than power/weight into account, the results probably would have been much better.
 
charliec
👍

Honestly I've run some very odd but very close races with the PP system (last one was '61 E-Type versus '90 ZR-1.) Never would have thought to pair them but they were actually a close race.

Running through a simulation would probably provide a marginally more accurate rating, but I certainly wouldn't say it fails. If it failed I wouldn't be running consistly close (under 1 second of separation) races online with it.
Click to expand...
I've run some close races as well...but only after trying dozens of cars to get the one that will run quick. For weeks I thought i was being out schooled...nope turns out I was just under the assumption that an '86 MR2 could be tuned to run as fast as a Lotus Elise. I jumped in the Elise and with virtually no tuning was running lap times 4 seconds quicker than the MR2. So why create the illusion that performance points make cars equal when there are obvious differences.

There simply isn't enough room in the lobby title to put "no RC/RM/Elise/NSX".

...actually i do find it funny that at 450pp the RM/RC cars aren't all that quick. Only if the driver is smart enough to remove all the downforce will the car compete with street cars.
 
Today I made some test drives at my custom track:

PP Limit: 600
Why 600? IMO 600 allows much more variety in the field. If you choose 700, most people will either use LMPs or max tuned race cars like a ZR1 RM or a Nomad Diablo. Also, 600 PP forces the player -aslong as he chooses a race car- to limit hp/weight, so it makes setup work more important.

Tire Restrictions: Racing/Hard
Racing Softs deliver to many grip. Yesterday it started raining on a race at my custom track at lap 1, two other guys raced with me, it was pretty close till the last corner of the first lap (we were well within 5 tenths during our qualifying with me second). I thought that switching to intermediates would be a smart move... Well, it wasn`t. I lost 5-10 seconds each lap, eventhough it was like hurricane Catrina coming trough my race track. Zero Grip, zero traction.
Using Hards is much better because wet tires deliver more grip on wet track then hards.

Used Cars:
Pagani Zonda R `09 (A MR track car)
Castrol Impul GT-R `08 (A AWD race car)
Corvette ZR1 RM `09 (A FR race car)
Ferrari 458 Italia `10 (A MR road car)

Lap times:
Corvette ZR1 RM 1:27.749
Castrol Impul GTR 1:28.633 ( I think it could have been as fast as the ZR1)
Pagani Zonda R 1:28.871
Ferrari 458 Italia 1:34.588

IMO the PP system is good, aslong as you dont mix up race with road cars. They could add some kind of "track factor". On tracks like Monaco cars with more downforce and grip, but less hp should get higher PP then on Monza.

edit:
My car suggestions for following PP classes:
450-530: NSX Type R `92
530-575: Lamborghini Miura
600-680: Castrol Impul GT-R `08
680 onwards: Peugeot 908 HDI
 
Here's an idea for a performance ranking system that could be enforced for high level competition:

You set up a car and select "verify performance" somewhere in the GUI. Then GT shows you a progress bar for a couple minutes, then gives your car a score. What it did was put a stig-like bob in the seat and ran a hot lap on a few different tracks, determining a detailed score based on the cars' performance. A standardized test so to speak. All in fast forward so to only take a few mins. Changing any settings on that car will invalidate your score.

Cause yea, p.p. is unreliable.
 
Exorcet
What are these handfuls of fast cars besides the NSX and Elise? [Which don't seem to be all that game breaking since you say they'll only win easily on certain types of tracks].
Click to expand...
Well the NSX is quick on just about every track. I don't have a definitive list but basically a rule of thumb is if you have to add more than 1 or 2 aftermarket parts, the car is not going to keep up unless it was originally a high performance car with sticky tires. PD did a decent job with initial PP values on cars but they didn't do well with assigning point values to specific mods or accounting for how performance reduction affects the car. It sways things in favor of newer sportier cars across the board.
 
Fredzy
Here's an idea for a performance ranking system that could be enforced for high level competition:

You set up a car and select "verify performance" somewhere in the GUI. Then GT shows you a progress bar for a couple minutes, then gives your car a score. What it did was put a stig-like bob in the seat and ran a hot lap on a few different tracks, determining a detailed score based on the cars' performance. A standardized test so to speak. All in fast forward so to only take a few mins. Changing any settings on that car will invalidate your score.

Cause yea, p.p. is unreliable.
Click to expand...

That's how Forza 3 does it. The end result is not much better.
 
chuyler1
I've run some close races as well...but only after trying dozens of cars to get the one that will run quick. For weeks I thought i was being out schooled...nope turns out I was just under the assumption that an '86 MR2 could be tuned to run as fast as a Lotus Elise. I jumped in the Elise and with virtually no tuning was running lap times 4 seconds quicker than the MR2. So why create the illusion that performance points make cars equal when there are obvious differences.

There simply isn't enough room in the lobby title to put "no RC/RM/Elise/NSX".

...actually i do find it funny that at 450pp the RM/RC cars aren't all that quick. Only if the driver is smart enough to remove all the downforce will the car compete with street cars.
Click to expand...

The bold part is why PD needs to introduce more restrictions, why in the world would you want to use a race car in a street car race? How on earth is that a fair race? Even if PP are equal, the race car has a purpose built chassis for racing and the street car does not, no amount of tuning will make your street car magically handle like a race car.

Like is said previously some cars are just inherently better, the technology used to build the new cars outstrip the old cars by a hefty degree. No an '86 MR2 isn't going to be able to keep pace with a Lotus Elise at the same PP. It's technology plain and simple, which is why some pretty old super cars can hang with newer cars, technology used on them was top notch.

Technological prowess is transferred into construction of the vehicles, therefore cars like the GTR even with it's heft can pull such amazing lap times at the Ring. PP isn't the only determining factor, NSX is an awesome car for it's power and weight, all about the tech.
 
But shouldn't tuning like chassis reinforcement, weight reduction, and performance parts bring an older car up to pace with a newer car? isn't that the entire purpose of modding cars? Adding camber and adjusting spring rates so they are just right should give an older car some advantages, or at least put it on a level playing field.

I'd love to have room restrictions for the following...
* performance points AND weight/power restrictions
* RC/RM/Rally restrictions
* transmission, turbo, and/or other mod restrictions
 
600pp is the way to go CONFIRMED, I've tuned a couple of supercars and they can handle race cars without too many problems. The PP allow these tubed cars to have more hp than a race car so if your setup is right you can win. Anyway this pp class is the ONLY one particulary well balanced I've found so far.
At 550pp my Maserati Gran Turismo is running about 2 seconds faster than any other car at Grand Valley and 650pp is all about Race Cars.
 
chuyler1
But shouldn't tuning like chassis reinforcement, weight reduction, and performance parts bring an older car up to pace with a newer car? isn't that the entire purpose of modding cars? Adding camber and adjusting spring rates so they are just right should give an older car some advantages, or at least put it on a level playing field.

I'd love to have room restrictions for the following...
* performance points AND weight/power restrictions
* RC/RM/Rally restrictions
* transmission, turbo, and/or other mod restrictions
Click to expand...

Sounds great, but a race car is built for one purpose, GT allows you to mod a street car to race like specs, but it will never be like a true crafted race machine, will be close but never like it. Not sure why people assume that you are allowed to do that in a video game, these modification allow you to make "Works" cars, excellent racing class cars, but purpose built cars will still beat them, because all technology is geared toward making that machine win races. I rarely resembles the street car at all.
 
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SavageEvil
Sounds great, but a race car is built for one purpose, GT allows you to mod a street car to race like specs, but it will never be like a true crafted race machine, will be close but never like it.
Click to expand...
Not a lot of race cars actually are bespoke purpose built machines.

chuyler1
2) Power Band -- its not just about max torque/hp
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that torque curves are taken into account (though perhaps not as much as they should be) when calculating performance points.
 
Toronado
I'm pretty sure that torque curves are taken into account (though perhaps not as much as they should be) when calculating performance points.
Click to expand...
I heard rumors that it was the "area under the curve". That might be a decent effort but when you race the car between 6,000-7,500 rpm, making peak torque at 3,000 rpm does you no good. You need all your torque and hp at high rpms if "area under the curve" is the way things are measured. Low end torque will get you off the line faster, but after that you are screwed. Perhaps that's why the Elise is so quick. It has a nasty torque curve in the low rpm range but is optimal for high rpm racing.
 
I like PP, it gives ONLINE new depth. Players can choose many other cars they like, not just 400 HP , 1100 Kg..... very good system! I love it, and I can pick every car i like and drive it, many of my favorites are heavy cars (Not SUV's, hate them) but old jags, Mercerdes, BMW etc. heavy cars and they can only participate by PP system online. you will never see a lobby online with a 1300, or 1500 kg... 90% its just a HP restriction like 300 HP and then all folks pick lotus elise.. wtf.. still PP system isnt perfect.. it does count only HP, Weight and Aerodynamics, but there is so much more to count for sure.. hope PD will work to calculate more precise system.
 
SavageEvil
Care to elaborate, as I have found cars with skinny tires do not hold very well while cornering hard, compared to a car with wider tires running similar weight and power. That would make little sense that all of a sudden GT5 physics would cop out when you corner then snap back on when you are out of a corner...where did you get this information from. I am very interested in this.
Click to expand...

Lateral grip depends on tire alone for the most part. Yeah, you're right that it does effect the traction for acceleration [drag race and out of a turn], but I was thinking about lateral grip when I replied.

However, racing tires seem to really mitigate the difference. Even the completely messed up Saleen S7 starts to act reasonable on race slicks.

SavageEvil
The bold part is why PD needs to introduce more restrictions, why in the world would you want to use a race car in a street car race? How on earth is that a fair race? Even if PP are equal, the race car has a purpose built chassis for racing and the street car does not, no amount of tuning will make your street car magically handle like a race car.
Click to expand...

This seems contraditcory. If PP were complete perfect (I know it's not), then PP would be the end of the discussion. Chassis technology, or whatever would not matter.

Now, PP isn't perfect, but it is a good indicator of performance. The age of a car doesn't really matter in GT, and old can be just as good as a new one. The PP system takes the differences between into account so in the end everything is compensated for. Having an old soft chassis vs a stiff racing chassis is not different from one slightly softer chassis vs one slightly stiffer chassis. It's just the magnitude of the difference (and thus the amount of PP difference) between each in the two cases that change.

chuyler1
But shouldn't tuning like chassis reinforcement, weight reduction, and performance parts bring an older car up to pace with a newer car? isn't that the entire purpose of modding cars? Adding camber and adjusting spring rates so they are just right should give an older car some advantages, or at least put it on a level playing field.

I'd love to have room restrictions for the following...
* performance points AND weight/power restrictions* RC/RM/Rally restrictions
* transmission, turbo, and/or other mod restrictions
Click to expand...

GT tuning is spartan. You can't make a car a race car (except RM). All you can do is "amplify" a car. Basically if a car is ranked 800 out of 1000 in terms of performance stock, it will probably be 850-750 out of 1000 when fully tuned. In real life, you could take a FTO and make it compete with LMP cars. In GT, all you can do is put a bigger engine in it and give it a moderately updated chassis.

I completely agree with your restriction ideas. PP and mixed hp/weight seemed common sense to me. I have no idea why PD would go through the extra work (maybe it wasn't somehow?) of making them separated when such a thing is completely uneeded and redundant.
 
EivlEvo
This magical performance point system is horrible.

A power to weight comparison is how it happens in the real world, and I was hoping that with this PP system PD figured out a way to eliminate the numerous problems in a power to weight comparison, but unfortunately, they haven't. It appears as if they've created a power to weight comparison that is somehow worse than it normally would be?
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Power/Weight is not how it happens in the real world in general. FIA GT1 & GT3 e.g. rely on a 'balance of performance' system. They test the cars on the track, and based on their performance, add weight or limit power. P/W does not factor in.

It's a difficult subject though.
 
chuyler1
But shouldn't tuning like chassis reinforcement, weight reduction, and performance parts bring an older car up to pace with a newer car? isn't that the entire purpose of modding cars? Adding camber and adjusting spring rates so they are just right should give an older car some advantages, or at least put it on a level playing field.

I'd love to have room restrictions for the following...
* performance points AND weight/power restrictions
* RC/RM/Rally restrictions
* transmission, turbo, and/or other mod restrictions
Click to expand...

On your point about Mods bringing older cars up to pace with newer ones, It really Depends on what Mods were talking about. If GT allowed for real world engine swaps like putting a S2000 engine in a 1986 Toyota Corolla which really happened. On that note, am I wrong or did GT1 allow for engine swaps? I could swear I put a 20v engine in my 86 in either part 1 or 2 of GT series.
 
Yeah every time I enter 400pp-500pp rooms (which I usually race in), some cars have a clear advantage over others...and it's very extreme. Ex: NSX Type R (02 and concept), Elise, Evora sometimes, GSX, and to a lesser extent the RX-7. In the right hands of some drivers, these cars can sometimes get 20 second leads by the end of a 4-5 lap race.**

When I run in rooms where the tires are restricted to, say, sports soft, the domination is even worse. The NSX and friends (the rest of the cars I mentioned) can crash all over the place and still win with little to no effort. I mean overall the PP system is better than restricting by HP, but some cars are still favorable over others. PD is missing something, because cars other than the NSX and its crew could use 30+ points to stay competitive.

**I'd also like to add that these cars have an advantage on just about every track...if not every track.
 
PP works best in cars with over 500hp. PP can be exploited in under 500hp cars with the air restrictor giving bigger capacity engines the max Hp at all rpms while the guys with little engines maxed out will only briefly peak at max power.
All races I host using cars with under 500hp I enforce a PP and Hp regulation based on what I'm using ( a car with maxed out Hp ) and the races are always bumper to bumper. You don't need to match both regs just one and be under the other. Since things like weight and torque are still not regulated people can still get the edge on me though generally speaking it works flawlessly ie very close races.

I just get everyone on the track under one reg then change it to the other (pp/Hp) reg anyone fibbing about meeting criteria is automatically kicked back to the lobby to change then I do it all over again.
You get the occasional smart arse who quits after I start the race start countdown and tries to change his specs to cheat the field but I just quit out and kick them.

This system seems to be the only way to regulate people into cars with matched performance. The air restrictor should be binned and replaced with an alterable Cpu that changes the power curve overall instead of just cutting off the peak.
That air restrictor is the real enemy here. It's made a game difficult to regulate even harder.
 
You guys want totally equal cars if PP is the same? Then just restrict race to particular car. Cars HAVE TO be different even PP is the same. That's where game is. You have to choose which car's behavior is better for you.
It's totally pointless if road version of GT-R will act the same as race version just because of PP. It will be just another boring and crap NASCAR competition with useless difference of livery and appearance.
 
I hosted a 650-670PP room Saturday night without much issue with overpowered cars. I'd say it really comes down to the driver, tune, and track. Like mentioned earlier some tracks favor certain cars over others, that's kind of common sense. The driver and the tune are what really make one car shine over others. Ultimately someone with better knowledge of how to tune the car being raced with without a doubt be faster than the competition. I dont believe the PP system is completely screwed up but it might need to account for a few other things also.

Just my 2 cents
 
from what I've been hearing it's just the penalties that need to be fixed... the PP seems to be kind of odd aswell.. I had a huge rant about it but without giving secrets away I must simply say that I think the PP are actually quite balanced if you have the skill to be running a race with a restriction in the first place, because there will always be a car that will be in first and a car that will be in second, and those will be decided by the preparedness experience of the drivers. Whichever driver has practiced more wins; not just on the track, but in the tune menu - because if PP is a number you must be aware of it and if you're in second, you hadn't studied it enough (assuming you're a good driver, because skill also plays a role regardless)

Edit: Also though, ask about restrictions beforehand :\ I mean if you're going to race a friend you can set rules easier though (i.e. no turbos or turbos allowed, simple) it would be nice if other people online could read a lobby title and agree to race without parts but in reality that just doesn't happen a lot of the time whether it be the person doesn't read english or what :\ I do not know.
 
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There are definitely some interesting quirks to the system, and I'll fully agree that the tires should have been left in the equation; it was a lot of fun taking an otherwise outclassed car, on stickier tires, to far more powerful machines.

I've noticed 3 examples of oddities:

  • I decided to build Alfa 147 Cup cars. Fully lightened, given wings, 200-220hp, and a few other goodies. Oddly enough, with a Standard '02 and a Premium '06, they both hit the same PP... despite the '02 being 10kg heavier and needing to be down a dozen HP over the '06.
  • The 908 HDi FAP cars have a huge PP advantage over the R10 TDi, when running similar specs. I realize they're newer machinery, but it is a giant leap.
  • I have a 300ZX at 500PP and a Z34 at 500PP. The earlier car is 20kg lighter, but it's also down by 44hp. This actually makes the most sense out of these three though, since I imagine the rating is taking into account the much higher torque of the turbo engine.
 

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