My T500RS "Even Stiffer" Brake Mod

mrbasher · Dec 2, 2012

I purchased a T500 recently. I was using a set of Fanatec CSR pedals with a load cell brake that I made. Thus when moving to the T500 pedals, the brake was very much lacking in resistance, even with their stiff brake upgrade. It just wasn't going to cut it. It was time for my own solution

First I tried a spring, but I won't bother going into that. It worked, but nothing like this solution.

Basher's Brake Mod:

What you see there are two urethane skateboard bushings sandwiched between the included stiff brake mod plate and the back of the pedal. There is then a small aluminum plate I machined which keeps the bushings from sliding up and out. The plate really isn't necessary when the pedals are in the Formula position, but it provides some peace of mind.

Here is a shot without the aluminum plate installed:

You can see there that the included rubber and spring have been removed from the original bracket.

The feel of the pedal after doing this is very similar to a load cell pedal and makes being consistent much easier. It's quite cheap as well, especially if you have a skate shop somewhere near you. A set of 2 is usually around $5. Skateboard bushings also come in many durometers (stiffness) I believe the ones I am using here are only 60 durometer which is at the low end of the scale. You could mix and match to get a desired feel if necessary.

To finish off, before anyone asks... Yes, you still get proper travel out of this. You simply load up a game and mash the pedal down. This sets the travel. At maximum braking, you're going to be pressing on the pedal quite hard. You do not absolutely need the little bracket I made unless you are going to use the pedals in the upright position. The bushings stay in there pretty good since they are urethane. You could use a piece of tape if it made you feel better about it.

JogoAsobi · Dec 2, 2012

Ghetto blaster deluxe! Improvisation at its best!. Better braking by Tony Hawk, Awesome!

I will be curious to see how the feel compares to other pedals soon to be in your possession.

spinner · Dec 3, 2012

Love it ! I have the stiff brake mod with rubber still in place but with spring removed and I recently replaced the 2 torsion springs with some slightly heavier ones. The transition from spring to the rubber block is almost seamless now. I love your mod though and will keep it in mind for the future.

Thanks for sharing

mrbasher · Dec 3, 2012

Nice man

The original would have been ok if the there was some feel before it hit the spring etc. So it's understandable that you'd made the changes you have.

One of the nice things about this mod is that there's not any noticeable transitions in necessary force. It's just a nice increasing feel from the start. It's also firm enough that you can easily modulate it even at very low braking levels. It also has that "progressive" feel to it. When you get near the end, it takes some decent force to get it the rest of the way.

mcfizzle · Dec 3, 2012

Very interesting, I should be by a skate shop tomorrow and may try to pick some up. Thanks for the tip mrbasher.👍

JogoAsobi · Dec 3, 2012

edit, my question was redundant, already posted.

mrbasher · Dec 3, 2012

No prob mcfizzle

Try some different durometers if you can, I only have these 60's but I'd like to try some others. If it's too much, you can always just put one in there, though that really isn't that stiff.

When you put them in, just shove them in a ways. You don't have to JAM them down in there, they'll end up working their way back up to a resting point anyhow.

pilmat · Dec 3, 2012

Nice

I like simple solutions!

We have a T500RS on the way to evaluate. I'll pick up some bushings at the local skate shop on the way to work. You're recommending 60 as a start point? Do you think I'd have to go up or down from there?

mrbasher · Dec 3, 2012

I'm not positive these are 60... In fact, I think they are 73 or 80. They are no-name bushings with no markings. However, I have a set of white Khiro bushings that are 73 and these are very close to those. I need to go edit my first post with that info.

You can see the range of durometers here: http://www.khiroskateboardproducts.com/bushingproducts.htm

Other makers do go above and below this I believe and the colors don't mean anything between brands so don't count on that.

The feel of the brake using the bushings is interesting. You get that nice squish at the beginning while the bushing has a lot of room to compress. However, the closer you get to the end, the quicker it starts to become harder to press. The last eighth or so of brake is pretty stiff and I believe that is because the bushing has squished to the point that the hole is closed. If that makes sense...

I'd like to try some different durometers as well.

As for recommendations.. I'd start at 73. Maybe get 2 85's to test with as well. From there you should be able to maybe extrapolate a little on what you might want. Remember you can always put one in, or two of different durometers.

mcfizzle · Dec 3, 2012

I picked up a set of 78's and will give them a try in a bit.

mrbasher · Dec 3, 2012

Awesome. Post back with what you think. Just because I like it doesn't mean it's worth a damn. lol

mcfizzle · Dec 3, 2012

I like it so far and plan to stick with it. It feels similar to how I remember my G27 NIXIM 2 mod feeling, a very good thing as I loved that mod, except less travel.

I did a couple things making it hard to get a great feel for it though. First, I ran on Nordschleife in a car I've never driven before, the C7. Not the best way to get a feel for the pedal. On top of that it wasn't calibrating correctly right away, giving me only about 40% brake. I pressed probably harder than I should for racing and it shot to 100% causing the force required to brake to be much higher than I wanted. Not the ideal situation to form an opinion but I drove for about 45 minutes anyways.

Like I said, I like the way this feel though. You can definitely feel that you need to progressively increase pressure to increase brake force. Muscle memory should come much more into play versus positional memory with the original 'real bake mod'. I liked my nixim mod G27 pedals more than the T500's and I think this takes me right back there. I bought 78 durometer and would prefer a little less, probably the 73's, but that opinion could change as I use it more and calibrate the pedals with the correct force. The mod did require me to put a shoe on and will probably do so for the time being. My only concern is if changing the fulcrum point with the amount of pressure required will lead to any cracks or breaks in the pedal arm?

Great find mrbasher.👍 I think you just found a very cheap and efficient way to upgrade the T500 pedals. Right now I would recommend this to anyone looking to improve the feel of their brakes.

mrbasher · Dec 3, 2012

Nice!

Thanks for testing!

I wish I knew the durometer of the bushings I have. It sounds as though they may be softer than the ones you have. I don't need to wear shoes, but I do need to wear socks when playing using this method.

With regard to calibration. I don't know exactly how the wheel does this yet, but when you get to the point where you can race in GT5, you can watch while you press the brake. Until you hit about half-way on the gauge it will just keep increasing. Then, it will suddenly jump. After that happens it seems to be calibrated. I'm not sure you need to mash it the first time like I said, although I do.

As for the forces placed on the pedal... based on the makeup of the pedal arm itself, it seems safe, but I'd have to take a look at where it's actually pivoting to be sure. The location of the pressures involved should be the same as with the "real brake mod." Depending on the durometer of the bushings used, it may not be that much more force... It's just that you have to apply more force over the range of movement instead of only at the end of travel.

I would try a lower durometer.. You'll get more movement out of the pedal. OR, for the heck of it, maybe just use one bushing for now and see how it feels...

Thanks again for testing, it confirms my suspensions that I'm not entirely crazy

mcfizzle · Dec 3, 2012

Thats a good point about same force, but throughout the brake rather than just the end.

It definitely didn't calibrate as normal because I did the initial pedal calibration on track and it wouldn't go above 40% for about 15 seconds and then it just shot to full with a really forceful push. I should be on again either tonight our tomorrow to check that out again. I will probably also try it with one to see if I like that more. That makes it sounds like a complaint and it's not at all. Just have to find that prefect comfort level. It's amazing that you found such a good mod for such a low price. Could be the best value in sim racing.

oqvist · Dec 4, 2012

If you preferr the nixim brake mod V2 why preferr the T500RS even stiffer? I do have the nixim V2 brake mod on my G27s and I don´t have to kill myself as much to get to full braking on that one as I have on the T500RS. However I do find the T500RS to feel better as it´s less spungy at the end with the nixim I have to kind of keep it in place a bit more.

I have one drawback with the T500RS though. With the G27 pedals and any pedals I used before that I could get stronger with racing shoes. But in the F1 position my shoes get stuck on the back panel and the pedals are to low in overhang position so I actually loose force using shoes as I can´t hit the pivot point correctly and get kind of stuck with the ankle movement. I do occasionally get the same problem with the brake where I brake like nothing else and get 25 % braking power shoes or no shoes. I am no super athlete but since I am left footed my left leg is much more developed muscularly then my right so I don´t feel I am overly weak. My right leg is all mushy though

mrbasher · Dec 4, 2012

ogvist,

I don't mean to sound defensive... However, what you are describing sounds nothing like how this feels. I tried installed the mod that come with the pedals and I experienced exactly what you did. The last 1/8th or so of travel is takes quite a bit of effort. However, the first 1/4 of the travel takes almost no effort at all and to me this is a very important part of the brake.

With this one, the pressure starts as soon as your foot hits the pedal, the pedal still has very decent travel to it and a progressive feel to it. Honestly, the last 1/8th of travel may be easier to press than the mod that comes with the wheel... I'd have to measure it, but that's about how it feels.

Honestly, for about $5 or so, it's worth a try.

mrbasher · Dec 4, 2012

mcfizzle
Thats a good point about same force, but throughout the brake rather than just the end.

It definitely didn't calibrate as normal because I did the initial pedal calibration on track and it wouldn't go above 40% for about 15 seconds and then it just shot to full with a really forceful push. I should be on again either tonight our tomorrow to check that out again. I will probably also try it with one to see if I like that more. That makes it sounds like a complaint and it's not at all. Just have to find that prefect comfort level. It's amazing that you found such a good mod for such a low price. Could be the best value in sim racing.

Keep playing with it. I'm interested to hear what people think about the different durometers, etc. If they can think of improvements too that would be great.

With regard to finding the mod for a low price... I literally have a pile of different parts that I've played with while doing R&D for a brake pedal I have been working on for some time now. Springs, bushings, sensors, circuits, you name it... I just happened to see these and 💡

oqvist · Dec 4, 2012

Absolutely no need to get defensive just interesting to discuss :thumbs:. If it´s stiffer in the start and not at the end then I can see it working a bit better for me personally. However I don´t have that loose feeling in the initial travel. In F1 mode I got some clanking and could feel/hear the spring but that got much better in hanging position for me. My close the eye and guess 50 % test make me always land for less. Will play around a bit with the sensitivities to so I can more easy get up to at least 80 % braking.

I am saving up for load cell but if I run across some wheelies for a really good price I may give it a go

.

mcfizzle · Dec 4, 2012

I tried one 78 brushing instead of two and to me it felt close to perfect. Very very instinctive and didn't have to think about pressing harder or with less force. My main complaint with the 'real brake mode' was it wasn't strong enough and never gave me a good feel for my level of braking. I feel like this solves that. It is very similar to the NIXIM and I assume load cells in that you are using your entire leg to break rather than ankle movement and in my opinion that is a plus. Before this I would have used my G27 pedals with the T500 wheel if I could in GT5, but for me now I think this beats that. As I get used to it and my leg adapts I may try a higher durometer brushing or double 78's and compare again but for now this is great. I will probably still look into load cell options in the future but more because I want to see what all the fuss is about. For now this is a really good alternative. Thanks again basher. :cheers:

oqvist · Dec 6, 2012

I played around a bit more. Reading the manual they suggested I could get more resistance by putting the rubber on the brake mod upside down. So the spring get closer to the pedal. However less rubber would meet the pedal that way. Anyway I installed it and the odd thing I don´t have to brake for all what it´s worth to get 100 % brake but it got a lot lighter. Almost 100 % lighter?

I also adjusted my pedal plate so I got the pedals in more of a vertical position. I just love how the nixim cockpit has an answer for every single problem. Before the pedal with the brake mod had a tendency to want to tip over during heavy breaking amd the angle was a bit wrong. I suppose it was optimized for desktops or they just had to put the pedals so low to lower the CG? Judging by my brake part of it is me being in a stronger position with more leg support and the rest is perhaps being able to more firmly plant it toward the back of my pedal plate. Or is the brake mod actually offering more resistance in the stock mode? I also tried the short throw that was said to give less resistance but since it use less of the motion it appear to be about the same if you don´t short calibrate it.

spinner · Dec 7, 2012

The softest bushings I could get locally were 90 durometer. I tried with just one and the initial - mid stroke isn't too bad but it takes too much effort near the end. I find that makes hitting that critical point just before lock up more difficult , especially after 30 minutes of racing.

I'm going to stick with your idea though Basher , just need to find some softer bushings. I also made up the retainer plate for peace of mind

Cheers

mrbasher · Dec 7, 2012

Excellent.

Yes, 90 is very hard... I wasn't sure if it would be too hard, but it sounds like it is. I would stick with the 60-80 range if you can.

spinner · Dec 7, 2012

Do you know the brand of your bushings ? The softest I can find in an online store here is 80. I could order them from OS but the postage cost would exceed the price of the bushings.

mrbasher · Dec 7, 2012

No, they are some off brand thing... however, I do have a set of white Khiro ones that are similar in softness...

I'm trying to think of something else you could try using but am drawing a blank.

mcfizzle · Dec 8, 2012

Mine are Venoms or something like that. 80's would probably work as I use 78.

spinner · Dec 8, 2012

Thanks guys , I'll order some 80s then.

VINCE__ · Dec 10, 2012

So the verdict is 70 to 80, leaning more towards 80? Do the people that have used this mod think its an improvement from the stock pos pedals?

mrbasher · Dec 10, 2012

I believe mine are either 73 or 80-ish. That would be a good range to be in.

I can't speak for anyone but myself and it seems that few people don't want to bother trying to find a skate shop to get these.

However, I could not use my pedals before adding this to them simply because of the brake not having enough resistance. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the other pedals in my opinion. I can tell you that I would not post it if I did not think it was a major improvement over stock.

Since it seems to be a pain for people to get these, I might just pick up a bunch and sell them for cheap if people are interested. It's really worth a try if you can source the bushings.

Lastly, on the pedals... I should mention that, to my knowledge this is the only wheel that has 10 bit pedal resolution while connected to the PS3.

rekki · Dec 11, 2012

mrbasher
I believe mine are either 73 or 80-ish. That would be a good range to be in.

I can't speak for anyone but myself and it seems that few people don't want to bother trying to find a skate shop to get these. However, I could not use my pedals before adding this to them simply because of the brake not having enough resistance. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the other pedals in my opinion. I can tell you that I would not post it if I did not think it was a major improvement over stock.

Since it seems to be a pain for people to get these, I might just pick up a bunch and sell them for cheap if people are interested. It's really worth a try if you can source the bushings.

Lastly, on the pedals... I should mention that, to my knowledge this is the only wheel that has 10 bit pedal resolution while connected to the PS3.

Are you using shoes? BTW have any of you added more resistance to the clutch or accelerator pedals?

mrbasher · Dec 11, 2012

I use socks. I don't like the feel of the metal on my bare feet.

My T500RS "Even Stiffer" Brake Mod

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