Bass Ackwards braking works!

JaeTea · Mar 8, 2005

After reading TankSpankers guide I figured what the hell might as well try his settings and see what happens.

Amazingly they work....better than the majority of settings in the drift settings post.

The most bizarre is that totally forgoing your front braking and setting it way higher in the rear actually works!!! Really well! Crazy. :dopey:

I'm curios to try turning up the understeer setting as many have posted in the drift setting forum. Has anyone noticed a difference between setting it at 0 then to 10?

👍

194GVan · Mar 8, 2005

how is that backwards? doesnt it make more sense that if you have more braking power in the rear it is easier to break loose the rear end going into turns and less of a chance of locking up your front wheels, thus promoting more grip in front?

as far as the understeer settings, i think theyre garbage. learn to control your car, not have your car control you.

Rampant · Mar 8, 2005

Definitely a difference in the ASM understeering setting. However, as I got better drifting, I found I didn't need it anymore.

I was always about brake drifting in GT3. Come in too fast, brake, tail slides out, hold with throttle/steering. That does not work in GT4 as it overloads the front tires and they slide (understeer). This is why the rear brake bias helps. But, if you use the ASM understeer, than it helps stop the understeer from happening when the front tires loose traction.

d3p0 · Mar 8, 2005

194GVan
how is that backwards? doesnt it make more sense that if you have more braking power in the rear it is easier to break loose the rear end going into turns and less of a chance of locking up your front wheels, thus promoting more grip in front?

as far as the understeer settings, i think theyre garbage. learn to control your car, not have your car control you.

True, but if most of your braking is done by the rear you will not be transfering weight to the front (instead, to the rear) which will make your car understeer. Biasing the brakes towards the rear in an FR car is very unrealistic since greater brake force should be applied where there is more weight to slow down - i.e: FR; biased towards front. MR/RR; biased towards rear. Additionally, what you are doing by biasing the brakes towards the rear in an FR is making your brake pedal an e-brake and losing a great deal of your cars ability to stop.

JaeTea · Mar 8, 2005

194GVan
how is that backwards?

Here ya go. :dunce:

Boundary Layer · Mar 8, 2005

JaeTea
Amazingly they work....better than the majority of settings in the drift settings post.

ah, this gave me a chuckle.

did I not say in the guide that using your own settings will always feel more natural than the settings from the depot. Here's the proof.

Some of what d3p0 says is true however. The higher rear settings just permits you to stress the rear tires more than the front under braking - similar to the e-brake, but without necessarily locking, thus making it easier to generate slip. I keep my settings something like 8-19, or in that range but dependent on the car of course, just to retain some measure of stopping ability.

Either way, deceleration of any kind will transfer weight forwards, regardless of which end is doing the brunt of the braking. The amount of weight shifted depends on the decelerative force.

194GVan · Mar 8, 2005

TankSpanker
Either way, deceleration of any kind will transfer weight forwards, regardless of which end is doing the brunt of the braking. The amount of weight shifted depends on the decelerative force.

this is what i was referring to. but Tankspanker is right, everyone has their own preferences

d3p0 · Mar 8, 2005

TankSpanker
Either way, deceleration of any kind will transfer weight forwards, regardless of which end is doing the brunt of the braking. The amount of weight shifted depends on the decelerative force.

Pulling the e-brake doesn't transfer weight forward.

In GT3 I used 24/19 for FR's, I did this so I could drift drecreasing radius corners and use left foot braking (or right thumb braking) to slow down during a drift. Of course, this type of brake usage is more difficult in GT4 because you can't just slam on the brakes like you could. Although I agree with everyone trying their own settings, I suggest not using a brake balance controller for starters to get used to modulating the brakes.

Azuremen · Mar 8, 2005

d3p0
Pulling the e-brake doesn't transfer weight forward.

If it slows the car down at all, it does. And the last time I checked, pulling the e-brake WILL slow a car down, just not with as much stopping power as say, the foot brake.

However, most of what you notice with it is that it just locks the rear wheels....

basmasta7 · Mar 8, 2005

d3p0
True, but if most of your braking is done by the rear you will not be transfering weight to the front (instead, to the rear) which will make your car understeer. Biasing the brakes towards the rear in an FR car is very unrealistic since greater brake force should be applied where there is more weight to slow down - i.e: FR; biased towards front. MR/RR; biased towards rear. Additionally, what you are doing by biasing the brakes towards the rear in an FR is making your brake pedal an e-brake and losing a great deal of your cars ability to stop.

you are very mistaken my friend. just because you put more bias toward the rear of a car doesn't mean that's where the car is goign to transfer its weight. no matter what the weight distribution of a car is, if it's under brakign conditions more weight will transfer to the front of the car. therefore, no matter what a car is in terms of drivetrain setup or weight distribution, the brake bias should be toward the front for maximum braking performance. if it's equal or even a rear bias, under heavy braking the rears would lock up. look at any sports car (or any car really) and you'll see that the front rotors are bigger than the rears. this was modeled quite well in gt3. i haven't had much time to mess around with it in gt4 yet but it seems kind of messed up so far.

d3p0 · Mar 8, 2005

Let me clarify, if you bias towards the rear, _less_ weight will be transfered to the front. The e-brake is a perfect example of this; if you only apply the rear brakes the rear end will squat - less weight up front equals less grip up front. Now, if you lock the rear brakes, then your rear grip is effectively gone, causing oversteer.

And, you're right, stock FF/FR cars do 70% or more braking in the front which is why I advocate setting your car up like that in the game. MR/RR cars have a greater bias towards the rear but are still designed to lock the fronts first, for safety reasons. However, because there is a greater load in the rear, you will get better braking performance with MR/RR cars if you move your bias towards the rear.

Seito4Counter · Mar 8, 2005

I use an unbiased setting.. seems to work fine for me.

*king_of_drift* · Mar 8, 2005

i havent tried moving the brake bias to the rear, but i think its a lame way to initiate a slide...i thought drift was al about controlling lateral acceleration induced by weight transfer, not yanking the E brake and smashing the gas FF style?

~scott

Ketis · Mar 9, 2005

wow this might go in the same category as the link here .

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57763

Sloth · Mar 9, 2005

*king_of_drift*
i havent tried moving the brake bias to the rear, but i think its a lame way to initiate a slide...i thought drift was al about controlling lateral acceleration induced by weight transfer, not yanking the E brake and smashing the gas FF style?

~scott

That post made no sense.

Seito4Counter
I use an unbiased setting.. seems to work fine for me.

You're also drifting a midship, aren't you?

But yeah.

Normally I would set a bit more braking power toward the rear and brake before the corner.

Then I would let off the brake immediately before cutting into the turn, smoothly but suddenly transitioning from braking to steering.

This method gives amazing response and induces oversteer very quickly.

Let the wheel counter itself, then when you are at the desired angle, control with throttle.

If you oversteer a bit too far, touch the brake. The brake balance in the rear will help slow down the rotational moment of the vehicle, essentially balancing the drift and allowing you to get back on the throttle.

Installing and tuning an LSD to grab a bit more on decel could also offer a similar effect.

Try that.

Ryen49 · Mar 9, 2005

In real life you would set the brakes toward the front so you could actually stop because rear baised brakes wouldnt stop you they would make your car unstable.
In gt4 though you benefit from having brakes baised towards the rear in drifting so theres an exception unless your good with barke control than you can use baised front brakes .

extreme car · Mar 9, 2005

I'm so confused.... so if you have more brake power in the front it will drift but if you have more power on the rear brake it will create understeer..... is that correct?

xcsti · Mar 9, 2005

extreme car
I'm so confused.... so if you have more brake power in the front it will drift but if you have more power on the rear brake it will create understeer..... is that correct?

No more brake power in the front allows you to stop quicker because the weight transfers up to the front as you brake giving the front tires more grip. Setting bias to the rear can be especially helpul in FF or awd cars that are harder to break out. FR and MR cars can be feinted easily.

Sloth · Mar 9, 2005

Rear bias will make the car more prone to oversteer, whereas front bias will provide the opposite.

What I'm saying is, a slight amount of rear bias will enable you to brake while the car is drifting, but what that will do is slow down the rear of the car instead of the front, and what that means is if you put too much gas on and get the car rotating too fast, you can just touch the brakes and save yourself from spinning out.

You might notice when you drift a normal car, touching the brakes while oversteering will result in even more oversteer, and in turn, a spinout.

Which would suck.

Azuremen · Mar 9, 2005

I think it is like what you are saying Slurp... just either you aren't mentioning something, or not catching it.

Slowing down the car will move weigh forward, and thus off the rear wheels... this is why they spin out. However, with the rear bias, the front wheels are less likely to be overwhelmed, and I think you get MORE grip with them with this bias when you brake rather than a normal bias. This would allow you to correct the car easier.

Trying to brake with the rear tires is not gonna do much at this point, as they have already lost traction, so slowing their rate of rotation might not do much. Unless of course it slows them down enough so they actually stop slipping (thats if you are doing a power over drift, not my taste normally) but you still have the issue of weight transfer.

Sloth · Mar 9, 2005

I'm not talking about slowing the rotation of the tires.

I'm talking about slowing the rotation of the car if you oversteer too much.

Heavy bias in the front will result in increasing the severity of oversteer.

Biasing towards the rear will give you the ability to control oversteer.

I know my last post seemed a bit contradictory, but I didn't know how to explain it better.

awdrifter2 · Mar 9, 2005

Bias towards the front will make it ezier to initiate a braking drift, cuz it transfered more weight to the front, enloading the rear tires, so less power is needed to break them loose. Bias towards the rear will make braking more stable.

Funkshen · Mar 9, 2005

thats exactly wat slurp said

Drift2nv · Mar 9, 2005

some of you guys are nubs ...

Bias towards the front will make it ezier to initiate a braking drift, cuz it transfered more weight to the front, enloading the rear tires, so less power is needed to break them loose. Bias towards the rear will make braking more stable.

how would setting bias to the rear make braking more stable?? have you ever tried driving you car and only using the e-brake? not to stable then eh?, bias only set on either the front or the rear either way will make it unstable ... for the front under braking since only the "front" is braking the rear is more likely to come around on you then taking on the weight transition and bias set to the rear well thats obvious it will work like a e-brake and bring the ass end around on you ..
ive found all of the cars drift just fine with even settings front and rear maybe you guys should just learn how to control the cars yea?

Azuremen · Mar 9, 2005

I understand to a degree what you are speaking of...

In FF cars, people at first felt they only needed studs on the front wheels... however, a loss of stablity from the increased stopping power and lack of traction on the rear would make for an unstable read end on the car. I am familar with this from driving on gravel.

However... that is only at the entry where this causes stablity issues. Now, if the front end has more grip, I can understand the rear bias... and I guess I don't typically think to use softer tires on teh front in GT4 because I typically am racing, and thus trying to maximaze my grip at all times. That, and MR cars are slippery enough as is.

Either way, I see and yet don't see what you are talking about, if that makes anysense.

Take note that bias towards the read of the car AWDrifter will make stopping power over all less, as your rear wheels will lock before your front if you have more stopping power there from the weight transfer. Also, take note that the amount of weight transferred is directly related to the rate of decelleration, so front bias only transfers more weight as you can actually stop the car faster. However, still would have the understeer issues from overloading your front tires before you overload the read.

Brake bias drifting typically tends to deal with which tears will want to lock up first from what I've seen, thus the rear bias.

Not sure what I am talking about exactly anymore... kinda late... sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record at this point.

EDIT - Drift2... using your e-brake as an example is terrible... as it locks the rear wheels, and is thus a mute point in regard to stablity. Look at my post for info on it, and real world experiance on it as well...

Sloth · Mar 9, 2005

Drift2nv
some of you guys are nubs ...

how would setting bias to the rear make braking more stable?? have you ever tried driving you car and only using the e-brake? not to stable then eh?, bias only set on either the front or the rear either way will make it unstable ... for the front under braking since only the "front" is braking the rear is more likely to come around on you then taking on the weight transition and bias set to the rear well thats obvious it will work like a e-brake and bring the ass end around on you ..
ive found all of the cars drift just fine with even settings front and rear maybe you guys should just learn how to control the cars yea?

*elongated Napoleon sigh*

Dude..

First of all, don't get me started on the whole newb/n00b/nub thing.

Second, biasing towards the front will overload the front tires while braking, causing the car to be more prone to understeer while braking and turning.

Setting the brake balance towards the rear will make the rear more prone to being overloaded and slipping, or, inducing oversteer.

Finding optimal brake balance is an entire aspect of tuning all it's own.

Now, for drifting, setting the bias toward the rear will allow you to slow down before the corner, initiate oversteer if you desire to do so with braking, and balance/control oversteer while drifting.

So. Yes. With rear brake bias, you can oversteer on entry and understeer while drifting.

Understeer and oversteer are simply the direction that the car is rotating in relation to the turn.

Say you're entering a right turn.

You brake to set your entry speed, then cut sharply (but within your front tires' limits) while the shifted weight is still over the front tires. Then the car starts to rotate clockwise.

Now let's say you cut too hard and the rate of the car's clockwise rotation is too high (too fast), and even though you aren't even on the throttle yet, you know you will spin out.

With rear brake bias, touching the brakes slightly will slow the rotation of the car to a more acceptable level or even reverse the direction completely (counter-clockwise) and prevent you from spinning out.

With bias set towards (not 100%) the front, braking will slow the front of the car down better than the rear, resulting in increased rotation speed, and thus, a spin-out.

I don't know how to explain it any better than that.

I really hope this has cleared up any misunderstandings.

194GVan · Mar 9, 2005

Slurp you hit the nail on the head, perfect explaination.

In fact, anyone doesnt agree with that should eat s*** and die.

j/k

d3p0 · Mar 9, 2005

To initiate a braking drift, you are basically trail braking and then using steering or braking to get the rear end out. If your brakes are biased towards the rear, the speed at which the rear end will come out will be slower - more controllable, but less dramatic. Biasing towards the rear can also cut your drift short if you are using the brakes to transition from one direction to the other. Or, in decreasing radius turns you may not be able to slow down enough to land the corner exit or you may cut your drift short before the exit.

In real life, drift cars' brakes are biased towards the front. In the game as in life, it is possible to decrease angle by using the throttle and brake (front bias) at the same time. Or, the real life solution would be using your hand brake to slow the rear tires although these sort of corrections are frowned upon in competition.

In my view, by biasing towards the rear you are giving yourself a learning crutch and removing realism. If you are initiating with too much angle, you need to work on your initiation. If you are spinning mid drift, you need to control your throttle better. Finally, if you are using rear brake bias to lock the rears as a way to initiate, you might as well use the ebrake.

Sloth · Mar 9, 2005

*sigh..*

Okay.

d3p0 · Mar 9, 2005

Woe is you.

Bass Ackwards braking works!

JaeTea

194GVan

Rampant

d3p0

JaeTea

Boundary Layer

navigating a sea of fools

194GVan

d3p0

Azuremen

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

basmasta7

d3p0

Seito4Counter

king_of_drift

Ketis

Sloth

Ryen49

extreme car

xcsti

Sloth

Azuremen

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Sloth

awdrifter2

Funkshen

Drift2nv

Azuremen

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Sloth

194GVan

d3p0

Sloth

d3p0

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