Sound Off! Getting More People to Like Small Cars and Vintage Cars in GT

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JohnBM01

JohnBM01

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GTPlanet, this thread is an extention of my arguments made in the thread "Cars You Don't Want in GT5."

Something I've said in that same forum was about being a "citizen of the world" with automobiles. Fast cars are still fun, but it is the small cars that can still be fun and appreciative. Something else I've said before is that the daily driver impact on GT games is very special to many people. That daily driver impact carries into owners of cars like a Daihatsu, Fiat Panda, Autobianci A???, and stuff like that. Daihatsu specializes in small cars. Who says they don't belong on a race track or aren't as satisfying? I think especially in America, we're used to power and speed. Anything from a Chevy Cobalt to a Saleen S7 flies here. You can hate small cars all you want, just don't say they are useless to race.

The thread "Cars You Don't Want in GT5" also referred to "antiques." In my counterstatement, I stated that they shouldn't be called "antiques," but more of vintage cars. These cars weren't very fast compared to today's machines, but many people just don't really respect history. I'm no hardcore historian on automobiles, but I at least give the devil its dues, so to speak. My buddy "Live4speed" defended the Mini Cooper of the 1960s and 1970s when someone blatantly blasted the Mini in a post.

Now what's the point to all of this? I want to offer a discussion about how can we make people love these cars instead of bashing them all because they are slow. GTPlanet, we're all are an automotive community, so as a community, we need to find a way to help people better appreciate their prescence in GT games. You dig me, people? So how can we make them better liked or better appreciated among Gran Turismo gamers? Is it possible get people to like these cars? What will have to be done to make this happen and limit the number of gripes about them? And once again GTPlanet... SOUND OFF!
 
I dont think theres much you can do, dude.... some of us like it when a car is fast enough to need brakes.... and a 30 daihatsu don't need em on a racetrack... people can call them fun all they want, but its never going to change the fact that they are redundant to drive... because its always the same - full-throttle, turn, still full-throttle, turn turn still ful-throttle, lift for 0.3 sec back on full throttle forever...
 
Yes , there are people who play GT and unfortunatly only care about finding the fastest cars and moddiing them to the fastest possible degree. Any real racer realizes that racing is about going as fast as possible in the given equipment even if it is a 78hp hatch. Speed and power are only part of the equation, what about suspension settings and racing lines.......
 
I just LOVE when people think it makes them sound cool and smart and skilled by saying that people who only like "fast" (100hp started it) cars can't drive good... saying words like suspension and racing lines doesnt make you knowledgable about cars.. you all (now 6 of you) are pretty cocky for none of you seeming to have any real racing experience.... and no, neither do I - to bad I didnt say I was the S***, otherwise I'd be a hypocrite

Any real racer??? get over yourself, dude
 
Well, there's no need to be a jerk mate. Small cars are just as fun as big ones, small cars don't have to be crap either. How would you know a daihatsu is redundant to drive? Daihatsu has made performance models before, sadly they're not in GT4.
 
Allright, to answer the question John asked; what can PD do to make people appreciate small cars?, I think the answer is simple! GT5 badly needs a "drivers mode", a city or something in those lines, with full on traffic, where you simply can drive around, park, and simply obey trafficrules. This could also be kind of a "learners mode", a school to make you a safer driver. It could also implement tests on garvel, ice, wet tarmac etc, as an intro to the licenses. All this just to see how well your car performs on a daily basis, not just on the track. This should make for people to want a smaller car, better suited for that environment.
 
I really think that these arguements are stupid. They're created because people have different opinions. You are entitled to your opinion but don't make ridiculous arguements out of it.

However, I am going to be on the defense of JohnBM01 about the enjoyments of small cars. Every car I owned has been small and low powered. That's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh, I like it. I love driving my small cars.

And for the record, I have done some racing. It's not drag racing (because it's stupid), it's autocrossing. I have an Audi Coupé quattro and if I can run faster times than Mustangs and RX-7's (not that I'm dissing them, I like both of them), what's all the extra power for? Appreciate automotive history at all levels is all I'm saying. I love all kinds of cars. Slow, fast, small, big, old and new.

To answer the question of what PD can do? Don't make the fast cars so easy to win. Make everybody work for them.
 
The problem with the little hp cars in the game is not the cars themselves, its the games sense of speed. Anyone can tell you 60mph is a good bit of speed for an everyday car, may seem very miniscule to many, but if you have driven cars and SUV's to 100mph you know that speeds beyond that are quite a thrill and a scare.

If GT's sense of speed was realistic, many of you would find it increasingly hard to focus when going at speeds beyond 135mph, distances are covered relatively quickly, steering response is heightened and your brain feedback response is intensified, not to mention what's going on with your entire body. If PD can nail down a very realistic sense of speed in GT5, lots of us will rarely push the limits of those really highpowered cars. Those lil dinky car will feel much better to drive since you will have a more accurate sense of the velocity that you are travelling.

In my GT4, i have loads of cars hp ranging from 0-well over 1000hp, but i find myself driving cars in the range of 200-500, i don't care for ultimate speed, i just like the smooth flow of acceleration and sync with the road(seeing lines to take). Hence why every car i have is driven on the Nür, give the used car lots a look through grab a 200hp car , refresh the chassis , slap on some N2 and just drive(not race) the Nür, just you alone on the course. It's a totally different feeling from just blasting down the road, im not knocking fast cars. They both have their merits, driving smooth is pretty much unparalleled, fast or slow by themselves do not compare to smooth.
 
Team666
Allright, to answer the question John asked; what can PD do to make people appreciate small cars?, I think the answer is simple! GT5 badly needs a "drivers mode", a city or something in those lines, with full on traffic, where you simply can drive around, park, and simply obey trafficrules. This could also be kind of a "learners mode", a school to make you a safer driver. It could also implement tests on garvel, ice, wet tarmac etc, as an intro to the licenses. All this just to see how well your car performs on a daily basis, not just on the track. This should make for people to want a smaller car, better suited for that environment.
Click to expand...



I thought it was a racing game....? it used to be.... unless somebody other than PD can change it, I think it's still a racing game - not a "this car's fun obeying traffic laws game"
 
I don't mind small, 60hp hatches. And I understand the historic significance of small cars and vintage cars (eg. Mini, Volkswagen Beetle, Motorwagen) but in the game they just aren't that much fun to drive.
 
NO, Gran Turismo doesn't need a city to drive around in, it needs more realistic physics and a better sense of speed. Take EPR for example, driving in a low hp car in EPR feels great, it's far more realistic, if only it had a cockpit cam. GT4 has been made to seem realistic, but it's quite far off the mark. This makes low bhp cars ridiculously easy to drive, I mean ok it's not hard to drive my 306 fast, but in GT4 it's 10 times easier than real life. This means you can chuck the cars around far more a freely than you ever would or could in a real car, because in GT4 you just skid a little and bam power on and off you go. Theres no risk of losing control in a low powered car in GT4, yet there is in real life and if GT5 was to become a proper sim, I think the problem with slow cars being tedius to drive would be eliminated. I agree with John that the smaller cars should remain in GT, they add a lot to the variety of the game and many small cars have great character, but at the same time in GT I'm no a huge fan of driving thoes cars myself, in EPR I am, and thats for the reasons stated before..
 
Reading all your posts I have to think back to the first time I played GT1. At that time I owned a CRX that I was "building up" for some autocrossing and 1/4 mile fun. My friend came over popped in the game and I was hooked ever since. Point being that this game had a car that I could play with that I actually owned - in short I think that it was because of this that the series has been such a success and made GT junkies out of people all over the world. Without these small cars in the game it wouldn't give us any motivation to try and be a better racer/gamer. Oh let me hop in a 900 hp car and beat everyone with raw hp instead of skill. I'm sorry but I just don't get the point in that? Everyone has to step back and remember how this game started and how it's evolved. We can't just put aside the history of the automobile and racing just because a few people haven't the patience to play the game the way it was meant to be played. In other words if you don't like the smaller underpowered cars, don't use them but don't say we should not have them in the game. I think what we sould be saying is give us more. More small underpowered cars, more mid range powered cars, more hi powered, cars give us more of everything - not take this out or take that out. With the the power of the PS3 more of everything will be possible - we just have to hope PD can cram it all in there without taking 2 years.
 
bleurabbit7
I really think that these arguements are stupid. They're created because people have different opinions. You are entitled to your opinion but don't make ridiculous arguements out of it.

However, I am going to be on the defense of JohnBM01 about the enjoyments of small cars. Every car I owned has been small and low powered. That's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh, I like it. I love driving my small cars.

And for the record, I have done some racing. It's not drag racing (because it's stupid), it's autocrossing. I have an Audi Coupé quattro and if I can run faster times than Mustangs and RX-7's (not that I'm dissing them, I like both of them), what's all the extra power for? Appreciate automotive history at all levels is all I'm saying. I love all kinds of cars. Slow, fast, small, big, old and new.

To answer the question of what PD can do? Don't make the fast cars so easy to win. Make everybody work for them.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of your post, but when you say "Appreciate automotive history at all levels is all I'm saying" and earlier in your post call drag racing stupid.. that doesn't fly.

Drag racing has some really interesting stuff if you choose to research the mechanical side of it. Those hemis are insane beasts, and it would probably do you some good to really research just HOW they squeeze that much power out of those, why the cars are shaped the way they are, etc. - there's a lot more to it than "lol go down teh drag stripz", at least when you move beyond driving a 60hp daihatsu midget II down the runway :)
 
For those who love classic, small cars, you should check out the OLR series I'm starting. A link is in my signature. It's basically any car before the 1980s. 👍
 
I say drag racing is stupid because there is no skill in it. It's all about cramming +1000HP into a body and run for 10 seconds. I just see no point in it. But americans are hooked on it. If they want it, they can have it.
 
bleurabbit7
I say drag racing is stupid because there is no skill in it. It's all about cramming +1000HP into a body and run for 10 seconds. I just see no point in it. But americans are hooked on it. If they want it, they can have it.
Click to expand...


No Skill? are you serious? Have you every driven a manual drive car and tried to balance the clutch, not some thing super easy to do. Now try that with a car with well over 1000+ horsepower, and on top of that you have to drop the clutch at the right rpm to burn then grip the road in a clean enough launch and not waste precious milliseconds. Then you have to steer this moster which accelerates to over 300mph in as little as 4 seconds. No skill, you try to do that with your car with it's measly 200hp and try to come close to what a professional can do with the same car.

Once you are driving a car it takes skill to control it, just because you don't like it(drag racing), doesn't make it less skill full. That's like saying NASCAR doesn't take skill since they are driving on mostly ovals, hmmm have you ever driven in bumper to bumper traffic? Try that but at speeds in excess of 170mph, no skill, sure, anyone can do it eh? Never be soo narrowminded, you need skill to do everything.
 
bleurabbit7
I say drag racing is stupid because there is no skill in it. It's all about cramming +1000HP into a body and run for 10 seconds. I just see no point in it. But americans are hooked on it. If they want it, they can have it.
Click to expand...

You have got to be kidding me. That has got to be the weakest (and most hypocritical) argument over anything I've ever read here. Can you please be any more closed-minded?

I'm not even a fan of drag racing but I have to call your post a pile of BS. See the post above mine.

Ugh. To quote you: "I really think that these arguements are stupid. They're created because people have different opinions. You are entitled to your opinion but don't make ridiculous arguements out of it."

Good way to contradict yourself. That is seriously the most retarded thing I've ever seen.
 
I think one of the problems is the selection of tracks in which to race the small cars.

I only find small cars them interesting on tight, twisty, short tracks. In GT the tracks are more suited to cars with loads of power.

GT gets boring when you spend too much time going in a straight line. And unfortunately most cars under 150HP are too small for GT tracks.
 
Drag racing in real life is incredibly interesting, but in the game it's pretty drab.

Anyway, to get back on the subject, I absolutely love the classic cars in the game. The small cars I find less interesting, but that's because the majority of them are FWD and in the game they're a pain in the butt to drive. I think the problem is that the people who really appreciate the things that make older cars interesting. Also, since classics are getting few and far between, many people don't have much experience with them. I know if my dad hadn't restored a '57 MGA I never would have been interested in older cars. In fact, I had absolutely no interest in classic american cars until, on a whim, my dad took me to drive a '65 Chrysler Newport, which was what he had for his first car. As soon as I started that V8 I was hooked, and bought a '66 Pontiac a few weeks later and have loved it ever since. Because of that one experience I now have a much more open mind about what constitutes an interesting car, and it actually had a huge influence on me becoming a mechanical engineer.

I think a big part of the problem is that lots of people don't have the chance to have experiences like that and therefore their interests are confined to very specific areas of automotive culture. I was the same way for a while, but now I love anything with an engine and love to learn everything I can about them. The GT series allows me to drive tons of cars that I've never heard of or seen in real life, and learn more about them. In addition to this, it allows me to drive every day cars that I've never driven before and make rudimentary comparisons of them based on how they drive in GT. The wide range of cars is the main reason why I like the game. I actually get bored with games that only have fast, exotic cars, I much prefer cars I can relate to.

Like a few people have said, a better sense of speed and actually "driving" the car are keys to people enjoying every car in the game more. In one trailer I saw for GT5 there was an in-cockpit view, so if they have that that will help significantly with both aspects. Also, given that Tourist Trophy has an in-cockpit view, I can only assume (and hope) that they'll have it in GT5 too.

And as for GT4 being a racing game, I'm pretty sure it says right on the case "The Ultimate Driving Simulator". Sounds like an in-town driving mode would fit with that self-description pretty well ;)
 
I don't really like the small cars of the game. Antiques or OK, but small cars, i can drive whenever. It's the race cars and the supercars that i want to drive so i can at least experience them in a game, since i can't in real life.
 
A few things before I begin... I don't think drag racing is stupid. Personally, I don't mind drag racing. You actually have to keep the car steering straight, not to mention knowing when to shift. Not as easy as it looks.

I'd like to thank everyone for SOUNDING OFF, because that's what this is all about. I don't have a racing resumé myself. Only racing I've done is some go-karting with my brother and some of his friends. Go-karts? Yeah. To me, many people started with go-karts and can still be fun even if you're on top of the motorsports mountain. I think they are appreciative for one good reason (among others). For many, you get to learn a sense of car control at speed. You begin to adjust to condensed race tracks. I know when I raced at Houston Indoor Kartzone, lead footing the accelerator and... oh yeah, pumping the brakes... wasn't going to cut it. I learned the layout and figured that I could go flat out for maybe 80% of the course.

One of the best things to ever happen to Gran Turismo was the inclusion of the Motorland course. Believe it or not, it is so balanced to both slow and fast cars alike. It is technical and actually quite rewarding for those who master Motorland. To me, THIS track should have been called Beginner Course than that joke of a course with the same name. Maybe more courses well-suited to Kei-type cars would work, perhaps?

As it comes to Keis not having RWD, I'm not going to debate. I think they were made to be cheap and affordable, if many Keis aren't already. Too many weren't really designated to being like the Cappucino, Beat, AZ-1 or anything. Daihatsu is a prime candidate for a devotion towards small cars under 100hp (all except their lovely Storia X4). Anyone remember Sega GT or GT2? There was an interesting Honda with an uncommon configuration. The Honda Z Turbo came in the uncommon configuration of a mid-engined car with four-wheel drive. Remember a few others with a similar style? Lamborghini Diablo, anyone? Small cars can be quite unique, GTPlanet. I think the emphases we base on cars a lot are speed, power, and performance. I think if PD can put a nice package together, they can exhibit the strengths of Small Cars over their larger counterparts. What's one thing to like? Well, how about the ability to ride almost flat out on certain courses? Wonderful handling? And think, with tuning, they can be even better. A tiny terror. Carry on, people!
 
luftrofl
I think one of the problems is the selection of tracks in which to race the small cars.

I only find small cars them interesting on tight, twisty, short tracks. In GT the tracks are more suited to cars with loads of power.

GT gets boring when you spend too much time going in a straight line. And unfortunately most cars under 150HP are too small for GT tracks.
Click to expand...

Amen----
I'll combine this with needing a better sense of speed, and all cars with tires more prospective to real-life (in other words, Vipers should have at least SM, honda civics should have N2-N3)

then it'll be better and maybe even I'll enjoy it...
 
LeadSlead#2
Amen----
I'll combine this with needing a better sense of speed, and all cars with tires more prospective to real-life (in other words, Vipers should have at least SM, honda civics should have N2-N3)

then it'll be better and maybe even I'll enjoy it...
Click to expand...


P.S. I know this may raise hell, but small cars arent generally faster through tight twistys than big cars....
because they generally have much smaller tires and not enough room for bigger ones....

nobody mentioned that with fast drag cars, you can hardly turn the wheel since your front tires are spares, basically.... good luck fixing any steering input from a burnout....
 
LeadSlead#2
Amen----
I'll combine this with needing a better sense of speed, and all cars with tires more prospective to real-life (in other words, Vipers should have at least SM, honda civics should have N2-N3)

then it'll be better and maybe even I'll enjoy it...
Click to expand...

I don´t really understand. You want all cars to grip more than they do IRL? I´d say a Viper doesn´t pack more grip than the N3 provides, and that is actually pushing it. As a comparison to RL I can take the BMW M5. It does 8:14 around the ring IRL. With N2 on I did 7:57, without any real effort to it. The grip on highpowered cars is far to good in game IMO. On the other hand, grip in FF cars is portraid way to bad, even with R5 tyres on, so PD has to do some balancing on that subject. And if they also portay speed better, worse grip would make the experience of all cars much better. I mean, it´s a scary experience driving a lowpowered FF on the edge, imagine a supercar on the edge!! If that can be implemented into the game, they have a winner!
 
LeadSlead#2
I just LOVE when people think it makes them sound cool and smart and skilled by saying that people who only like "fast" (100hp started it) cars can't drive good... saying words like suspension and racing lines doesnt make you knowledgable about cars.. you all (now 6 of you) are pretty cocky for none of you seeming to have any real racing experience.... and no, neither do I - to bad I didnt say I was the S***, otherwise I'd be a hypocrite

Any real racer??? get over yourself, dude
Click to expand...

I pay a regular membership fee to be a part of SCCA, I auto-x every season, twice a month for 6-7 months, and I go to the Kansas Speedway, as well as the Heartland Race Track, at least 10 times a year.

I race my 1993 Honda Prelude, which I have done a lot of work on.

I also race competitively with my friend, whom drives a Subaru WRX Sti, which we both drive depending on teh event and track.

My tuning knowledge in REAL LIFE application far exceeds that of which you have in a video game.

I started out with Kart racing when I was 15, and later it developed into a love for motorsports.

you have made it clear you do not have experience aside from immature road side speeding and highway racing.



So please, for the love of god, keep your video game mentality out of this thread, we no longer want to hear your one sided opinion, when you develop a love for motorsports and cars in general, then you can contribute to the thread in a useful manner, however, this is NOT a thread about how you are tired of ayda yada, it's a thread for people to talk about small cars etc.

So either stay on topic, or keep quiet :)
 
tha_con
I pay a regular membership fee to be a part of SCCA, I auto-x every season, twice a month for 6-7 months, and I go to the Kansas Speedway, as well as the Heartland Race Track, at least 10 times a year.

I race my 1993 Honda Prelude, which I have done a lot of work on.

I also race competitively with my friend, whom drives a Subaru WRX Sti, which we both drive depending on teh event and track.

My tuning knowledge in REAL LIFE application far exceeds that of which you have in a video game.

I started out with Kart racing when I was 15, and later it developed into a love for motorsports.

you have made it clear you do not have experience aside from immature road side speeding and highway racing.



So please, for the love of god, keep your video game mentality out of this thread, we no longer want to hear your one sided opinion, when you develop a love for motorsports and cars in general, then you can contribute to the thread in a useful manner, however, this is NOT a thread about how you are tired of ayda yada, it's a thread for people to talk about small cars etc.

So either stay on topic, or keep quiet :)
Click to expand...


I'm sorry, did anybody speak to you? I believe I was talking to somebody who's never raced on a track... and maybe you can't speak for everybody you don't know.... but I see your still bitter.... and arrogant because maybe you drive a car on a racetrack.... good for you! 👍

P.S.---we were talking about GT4 you super intelligent being, so, how about you stay out of conversations you know nothing about? and how about you stop bragging about racing, until you show some kinda proof? how bout that?
 
I race my 1993 Honda Prelude, which I have done a lot of work on

whats a lot? I don't know what that entails... so please elaborate if you please... everybody else does it
 
My point is, you take it off topic, this is not a thread for you to defend your honor as a speed loving guru, it is a thread for people to talk about their appreciation of older cars that are RESPONSIBLE for what you claim to love so much.

Also, you spoke about people who were talking down on you, 6 of us specifically, and I assumed I was in that group of six.

So please, stop telling everyone how you love to go so fast, and stay on topic.



About lower hp cars, while it's not super low HP, it's still no super sports car, but the 1999 Honda Prelude SH has a wonderful feature, that I absolutely love, and I'm actually considering selling my current car for this one.

ATTS. This is just godly. Thoguh the new Acura TL I believe got a similar version of ATTS, however it is all wheel drive, which is even more amazing.

With that said, I also am a large fan of Mini's and many other compact cars.

Mini races pwn.
 
you just can't understand what the person said before, can you? and I simply responded... if that was off-topic, talk to him -- wasnt that like, 4 days ago anyway? keep with it or don't speak on it
you have now taken another thread off topic nice work hypocritical, maybe, but nice
and your not a moderator, last I saw - so let them say something if it's bad
 
LeadSlead#2
I race my 1993 Honda Prelude, which I have done a lot of work on.[/SIZE]

whats a lot? I don't know what that entails... so please elaborate if you please... everybody else does it
Click to expand...


"a lot" would consitute the following:

JDM H22A Engine swap (which offers approximately 10hp over the H22a1 US model).

Type-S pistons (which are higher compression than the standard pistons found in the H22a)

Intake (short ram, better torque numbers, wrapped in thermo-wrap)

Adjustable cam gears (not camshafts, gears)

8lb Fidenza Flywheel

Greddy Header

Custom Test pipe

Greddy SP Exhuast

Optima lightweight battery (11lbs)

Forbidden True Shortshifter

VAFC (tuned for A/F ratio and adjusted VTEC engagement point)

a couple sets of wheels, namely:

Enkie RS6 18" for show purpose

Rays Engineering Gram Lights 57pro for show purpose

Rota Slipstreams for track use

KYB Shocks with Ground Control Coilovers (420f / 440r)

Neuspeed Front Upper Strut Bar

Custom rear upper strut bar

Progressive rear lower sway bar



This doesn't even include all of the maintanence, to include:

Timing Belt repalcement with manual tensioner swap

A/C removal

engine block cleaned in hot tank to remove grime and build up (as well as carbon)

ported intake manifold



The list will continue as I begin working on it again in early 2006, but that is pretty much all taht I constitute as "a lot of work". man hours specifically, since I had to do it alone.
 

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