A new ranking system for 2006 ?

We are now using a division system : all racers are split into 3 different divisions so that they can compare their times with people of the same level.

There is another option that has been discussed in the past, and since most of you weren't around at that moment, I think time has come to discuss it again.
The idea would be to get rid of divisions. But don't go away right now : please read the rest of the post. There is a poll too, where you can vote : please read the whole thread before you vote.

So what is this new idea ? (actually it's an old idea that I bring back in the spotlight)

Racers would be ranked based on their submitted time only, and split into 3 categories (gold / silver / bronze).
"So what ?" should you think at that point : it's just renaming divisions categories and changing their name too. Pretty pointless !

Not at all.
The splitting into categories, unlike the current splitting in divisions, would not been fixed, but it would change every week.
When a racer runs a great time, chances are he'll be listed under the Gold category, while if he runs a crap time the week after his name will be listed under the Bronze category.


Here is a real example of the effect such a change would have, based on week 35 results.

First the results using the current fixed divisions system :

Division 1 :

1. 0'59.452 - SHigSpeed
2. 0'59.488 - kart.no.38
3. 0'59.641 - icemanshooter23
4. 0'59.678 - hOt604bOi
5. 0'59.749 - jmgyro
6. 0'59.765 - FASJ6418
7. 0'59.837 - MinorShunt
8. 1'00.099 - bbq0801
9. 1'00.330 - shockwaveracing
10. 1'00.808 - jump_ace
11. 1'00.837 - Toffe

Division 2 :

1. 0'59.821 - KLR142
2. 1'00.156 - NielsG
3. 1'00.337 - sjaak68
4. 1'00.986 - ballstothewall
5. 1'01.010 - flat-out
6. 1'01.081 - MisterWeary
7. 1'01.439 - TheCracker
8. 1'01.708 - Androoos
9. 1'02.227 - Drew22
10. 1'02.722 - Casio

Division 3 :

1. 1'01.104 - GTrackd02
2. 1'01.174 - rotbarsch1979
3. 1'01.351 - SimRaceDriver
4. 1'01.364 - bleurabbit7
5. 1'01.709 - TruBoo
6. 1'01.866 - Steve57
7. 1'02.218 - STINGER05
8. 1'02.859 - GT_Fan2005
9. 1'02.938 - peterjford
10. 1'02.988 - mark2080
11. 1'03.314 - Bee
12. 1'04.761 - slikaznricer
13. 1'05.351 - Robster

And now the same results using the Gold/Silver/Bronze system :


(under 1'00.564)

1. 0'59.452 - SHigSpeed
2. 0'59.488 - kart.no.38
3. 0'59.641 - icemanshooter23
4. 0'59.678 - hOt604bOi
5. 0'59.749 - jmgyro
6. 0'59.765 - FASJ6418
7. 0'59.821 - KLR142
8. 0'59.837 - MinorShunt
9. 1'00.099 - bbq0801
10. 1'00.156 - NielsG
11. 1'00.330 - shockwaveracing
12. 1'00.337 - sjaak68

(from 1'00.564 to 1'02.034)

1. 1'00.808 - jump_ace
2. 1'00.837 - Toffe
3. 1'00.986 - ballstothewall
4. 1'01.010 - flat-out
5. 1'01.081 - MisterWeary
6. 1'01.104 - GTrackd02
7. 1'01.174 - rotbarsch1979
8. 1'01.351 - SimRaceDriver
9. 1'01.364 - bleurabbit7
10. 1'01.439 - TheCracker
11. 1'01.708 - Androoos
12. 1'01.709 - TruBoo
13. 1'01.866 - Steve57

(above 1'02.034)

1. 1'02.218 - STINGER05
2. 1'02.227 - Drew22
3. 1'02.722 - Casio
4. 1'02.859 - GT_Fan2005
5. 1'02.938 - peterjford
6. 1'02.988 - mark2080
7. 1'03.314 - Bee
8. 1'04.761 - slikaznricer
9. 1'05.351 - Robster

You can easily see the differences.
Kyle ran a superb mid div 1 time and finished 0.3 sec ahead of the second fastest div 2 driver. Yet, his name still appears after all div 1 racers, including Jerome and Toffe who both were 1 second slower.
The new system reflects Kyle's performance : his name appears among the names of the usual fast drivers, while Jerome and Toffe are only quoted in the Silver category.

I won't list all the pros and cons here, I'd rather let you read this post, think about it and post your own thinkings on that topic.


[FAMINE MODE]
Some may wonder how the splitting is done.
Do I add a certain number of seconds or a percentage to the fastest time to determine where Silver begins ?
In that case everybody would be Gold when we run a long race.
Do I count drivers and split them into 3 equivalent groups ?
In that case similar times can lead to different category which would be silly.

No and no.
I'm using simple mathematical formulae (formulas ?).
First I calculate (that is, Excel does it for me) the average time (arithmetic mean), then I calculate the sigma (standard variation from the mean).
From these values, I consider that :
all times under (average - 0.5xsigma) are Gold, all times between (average - 0.5xsigma) and (average + 0.5xsigma) are Silver and all times above (average + 0.5xsigma) are Bronze.

For week 35, the calculation gives an average time of 1'01.299 and a sigma of 1.470.
Thus, times under 1'00.564 are Gold, times above 1'01.034 are Bronze and times between these values are Silver.

[/FAMINE MODE]

I think the only real drawback of this new system is that there is basically only one podium. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd would obviously all be gold times. In the current system, having 3 divisions allows people to compete for a podium in each of these divisions. So 1st, 2nd and 3rd are open to nine people. In this sense, there is more competition between the drivers of each division as opposed to the proposed system.

Whatever will be decided is fine for me

Yup!

Thumbs up for that Cyril, seem a fair and just method that will reward great runs in the long term.

Podiums could still be given, as in 1st,2nd and third in gold,silver and bronze sections.

Keep the divisions running, and use the bronze, silver and gold results for promotions and demotions.

What I mean by that is, that a D1 racer that gets, say, mostly silver results should be demoted to D2. Conversly a D3 racer that gets mostly silvers should be promoted to D2, etc, etc.

We could even have a complete shake-up of the divisions by someone using Cyril's method on all the races ran so far (or a certain number of them) and re-assigning driver's to where they should be statistically.
I know that there would be some opposition to this idea, as obviously some driver's would lose their present standings, probably including me, but some of the D3 drivers might get to D1.

If the promotion/demotion 'bar' was set to, for example 75%, then a D3 racer who has got 75%+ silver times in the races he/she has ran, then they deserve to be promoted!
A Div1 racer who has got 75%+ silvers and <25% golds then they get demoted!

The divisional standings could be re-hashed every ten weeks or so, with a pre-requesit of having raced at least 50% of the races for that period!

A lot of work for someone I know, but it would be fair!

Neil

ADDITIONAL

@Cyril

Maybe an extra option in the poll for my idea?

Neil

ballstothewall

Maybe an extra option in the poll for my idea?

Click to expand...

Once a poll is posted there is no way to modify it. That's the very reason why I created option 3.

flat-out

Once a poll is posted there is no way to modify it. That's the very reason why I created option 3.

Click to expand...

Fairy snuff!

Voted for option 3, although it really is a hybrid theory, not an alternative.

Neil

Hell,
You know I'm down. 👍

Although, I must admit that the application of this idea using excel seems like a much less subjective way to do this than the alternative.

At the same time though, it may be quite a bit of work.

I also like the idea BTTW mentioned.

And on the note that T13R brought up...
True, there will only be one real podium.
However, with a system like this an even greater number of people will be able to work for Gold instead of Silver or Bronze.

Finally, I'd just like to mention that I would like to see a more subjective system for dividing the categories.

I know that sounds bad but hear me out...
Hotboi runs a fast lap that's about 1 full second ahead of the D1 pack.
That' throws the average time off by a good little bit and so many of the "D2" runners that would have made gold only end up with silver.

Like wise, some guy runs a way slow D3 time and brings the average down big time...This allows far more people to pull better rank than they should.

So what's the alternative?
A subjective, but reasonable system.
Trust the judgement of the race steward and allow him to evaluate the times and ranks after all the times have been put together.

To use the Week 35 results as an example for how I would do this...
Anything under 1'00.000 = Gold (8 racers)
Anything under 1'02.000 = Silver (17 racers)
Anything behind 1'02.000 = Bronze (9 racers)

Now that may seem like a lot of D2 racers, but the truth is, there should be a lot of D2 racers!

It makes me think of the old school rankings... "Pro, Amatuer, Beginner" (which I still think are there just under different names).

Plus, under a system like this we would basically be mimicing the License ranking system in GT (which doesn't always have those mathmatically correct seperations of times between bronze silver and gold).

So, basically...
I would like to see us switch to Gold, Silver, Bronze, using "steward created" division marks (that are always even numbers of 1 second or .5 seconds).

Remember, even "standard deviation" divisions of G,S,B, could really create hell for racers working for gold in a week with an odd turn out on a track like the Ring.

Fact is, sometimes there aren't many spectacular laps and other times there are many of them!
Using a steward-created division of categories would allow everyone to run gold one week if everyone put down a time within 1 second of the leader... At the same time though, it would allow everyone to run silver or bronze if there weren't any great race times that week.

What I'm going to do is the exact same thing I did way back when...
I'm going to get the results of 3 to 5 weeks of races and show the system.

Hope to have it done by tonight so everyone can see what I'm thinking.

Until then,
-Kent

Btw, great idea Flat-out. 👍

Remember everyone, this is a way to have the results posted from fastest to slowest and at the same time, gives all of us the chance to run from weeek to week without worrying about how we did a few weeks back on a race we didn't like!

Also, this kind of system will let everyone have bragging rights!...
How?
Well it would be nice for those mid pack D1 and D2 racers to say "5 silvers and 3 golds" instead of "mid pack with no reward for the last 8 weeks".

anyway,
back soon...
Till then,

To me WRS isnt about the divisions and what not, its about having fun, competing against other members and admiring the fast guys skillz! .

Any is fine by me, i just wanna race!

I prefer the newer system. I was actually thinking about it last night (having no idea that it had been discussed previously).

So for me the new idea is the best one.

Ok, time for some more input :

@T13R : it's true that there would be only one podium, and only Gold times would have a chance to reach that podium.
Yet, racers would struggle to get a Silver of Gold ranking as they struggle now to get a podium in their div (except Drew and me of course )

@Neil : I like you idea, and it's worth thinking about it. But it makes the whole thing rather complex and time consuming while I was planning to have Excel do all the calculation

@Kent : A subjective and an automated system could give very different results. What I like with the automated system is that each submitted time has an effect on the ranking.
Here is an example with the results for week 32.

1'23.604 - hOt604bOi
1'23.792 - holl01
1'24.737 - MinorShunt
1'24.909 - icemanshooter23
1'25.112 - FASJ6418
1'25.247 - T13R
1'25.280 - jmgyro
1'25.451 - Dr_Watson
1'25.913 - KLR142
1'26.027 - SHigSpeed
1'26.463 - Toffe
1'26.471 - jump_ace
1'26.489 - Casio
1'26.646 - shockwaveracing
1'27.111 - Andge08
1'27.185 - Kolyana
1'27.453 - jctraduz
1'27.460 - NielsG
1'27.815 - Drew22
1'27.971 - bleurabbit7
1'28.954 - GTrackd02
1'29.201 - OnlyMe
1'30.808 - STINGER05
1'35.138 - smilely_leo

Smilely_leo submitted a time much slower than anyone else.
The race steward would ignore this slow time when defining the marks, and would probably choose 1'25.500 and 1'27.500 to have 8 Gold drivers, 10 Silver drivers and 5 Bronze drivers.

Ignoring the slow time, the proposed automated system would do the same and set the marks at 1'25.657 and 1'27.395, giving 8 Golds, 8 Silvers and 7 Bronzes.

But with that slow time dragging the average value up, the same calculation would result in marks at 1'25.662 and 1'28.108, giving 8 Golds, 12 Silvers and only 4 Bronzes.

It might look unbalanced, but the interesting point is that by submitting his time, smilely_leo would have affected the whole ranking. I really like that idea that each racer has a role to play in the series.


This Gold/Silver/Bronze system would induce some other big changes to the WRS as we know it, since nobody mentions them already I'll do it now :

• no need for a qualifier race any more ;
• div 3 leaderboard would become pointless (sorry Nat and Chris)
• my own leaderboard would also become pointless (but I would come up with something else )
• racers could replace in their sig the number of starts/podiums/starts by their number of gold/silver/bronze
  ...

I let you decide which is 👍 and which is 👎

In all honesty, and from my hard work to get where I am at, I would prefer the current method. I spent a LOT, A TON, A HUGE amount of time in getting to Division I and I dont want to see that go spoiled. However, if its what everyone else wants, I'm NOT going to whine like a sissy little girl either if I hit some 'silver' times too. I feel I have already proven myself to you guys and especially myself. 👍 But on the other hand, this would take care of the fact that since no one can be demoted, we are eventually going to have 2 HUGE divisions; 1 and 2 and Div 3 will get phased out except for the occasional newbie. So this gold/silver/bronze system would ensure everyone gets an accurate placement in the results. So eventhough I know I'l have a few silver times here and there I am confident in what I have been learning the last few months and I achieved a very big goal I set out for myself and I'm very happy with that.

So in short, I'll vote for 'Whatever will be decided will be fine with me' as I think its more fair for everyone, eventhough I may get short changed a little...lol.

jump_ace

kent:
steward interaction isn't needed to avoid a skewing of the rankings.
just calculate the outliers and then calculate the divisions basted on the normalized data. (not hard to make a "cleaning" formula in excel either)
Personally I would prefer the outcome to be completely based on math. When you start tossing subjective analysis into the mix you're devaluing the results.

I can see Jerome's point and I think if I had worked hard to get to Div 1 iI too would probably feel a bit bummed...BUT...anyone who's been around for a while knows the battle you and Randy put on to get to Div 1, knows how damn hard you guys drive and the new system couldn't take that away from you.

I think the battle to get a Gold time is more interesting than the battle for a Div win personally so your new proposal gets my full support Cyril 👍

I thought about it a bit longer, it also takes away the need for promotions and relegations etc, if you submit a Div2 pace time and your a Div3 driver, you will still be a Div3 driver in the results, if the new system were in place you would be in Silver, i actually think it will work well but as i voted im not bothered either way but the new system will work well imo.

👍

Surely, with my idea, Cyril....

Exel would still be able to do all of the calculations as planned, and i think that to include ALL times is fairer, and less subjective ( the spreadsheet does the working out and it cannot be argued with)

The only extra time involved would be that once every 12 weeks (to make it a 3 monthly thing) there would be a review of each driver's performance over those preceeding 12 weeks, and promotions/demotions given out.

The promotions would be based on each driver's individual performance against ALL of their peers, and there would be very little abiguity.

For example.....

A D1 driver has got 8 golds and 4 silvers in period 1, that's a 66.66% gold ratio and he gets dropped to D2.
But,
If he got 9 gold and 3 silver he would have 75% and stay up!

A D3 driver manages 3 bronze, 8 silver and 1 gold, he would have 75% better than bronze, and would therefore be promoted to D2.

A D2 driver who gets 2 bronze, 4 silver and 2 gold from 8 races (but that's all he does) still has raced 50% or more of the races for that period, so he gets a score of 80% silver or better and stays put in D2.

Also Cyril, it would not nesc have to be yourself that works this part out, anyone else could do it for you as it's a simple matter of adding up each driver's G/S/B scores and posting the results, every 12 weeks.

As for the scrapping of the qualifer race, why? It would still serve a purpose, to place newbies in the approximate area they deserve to be in. If, after the next review period they perform better or worse, then they go up or down!

The fighting and work that guys like Jump et'al who have climbed the ranks would not be effected if we didn't do the re-shuffle upon implimentation of the new system.
Also, if anyone like The Wiz, who only comes on every now and again, would not be subject to the promotion/demotions because they were running less than 50% of the races.

It would still feel good to say that i'm a D2'er with however many silvers etc i get, and no doubt even more so to be a D1'er with loads of golds, but if for whatever reason anyone is lagging behind the rest of their division, then surely they would deserve to be demoted. Football teams get promoted one season, and then demoted the next. All the time! As do pool teams, bowling teams, baseball, basketball........................etc. Why are we any different?

@Kent
I like the fact that EVERYONE will now get a reward for each race they participate in, it will as you say, help to encourage the mid-packer's to keep racing (and I am including myself in that catagory, because it is a little disheartening. Hence why i was anxious to get my race from last week verified because it is the only podium i have had since being promoted in week 5 or 6)

Comments?

Neil

Well, some interesting ideas 👍

I sort of feel like jump_ace about this, though.

I know I have not been racing at all here lately, so I should really shut up and take whatever , but I have, too, put a lot of work in the past to go from Division 2 to racers' heaven, Division 1.

Now, I would not like to see this disappear, but I guess I am up for anything the community as a whole will decide 👍

The Wizard.

TheWizard

I know I have not been racing at all here lately, so I should really shut up and take whatever.

Click to expand...

That's definitely not the way it goes in the WRS and you know it.
Any opinion is worth posting.

(Hope to see you back soon, Matteo)

flat-out

That's definitely not the way it goes in the WRS and you know it.
Any opinion is worth posting.

(Hope to see you back soon, Matteo)

Click to expand...

Well, I appreciate you have been missing me, my friend 👍
I hope you don't think I have not been racing because I dislike your combos, it has had to do mostly with university - it's been a demanding semester.

I will be back, just not this week - can't take all that wheelspin and I haven't been playing GT4 for way to long for me to attempt fighting those cars around, now

As for my comment, I am entirely aware of the fact that you care and take into account any opinion, I hope I did not make myself sound like I was trying to state the opposite.

What I was trying to say was that I did not expect (nor want, for that matter) that my opinion should deserve that much importance, given the fact that I have not been around too much in the first place, and since it might seem, for this very reason, that I do not care enough about it for my opinion to make (if any) a difference.

Since it seems that we will most likely switch to the new system, which is entirely fine by me, I would say that allowing math to do the job would be the way to go. Not that I do not trust your judgement, but this way, like it has been said previously, everybody will have a chance to make a difference, by changing the average and all the other variables that will be taken into account.

EDIT: as for Neil's ideas, they seem pretty interesting too 👍 I would like to see promotions and demotions controlled by the Gold, Silver and Bronze system. I do not know, though, if people like me that take part in the WRS only once in a while (but I guess, for me, it's only been here lately, as previously I used not to miss a race) should receive special treatment. I do not expect it, nor want it. If I don't race, that would be my own fault/problem, so why should I not be demoted? Should somebody else, that takes part to all/almost all the races be demoted (because say he/she gets a lot of Silver), while I get to keep my spot even if I do not race at all (therefore, even if I do not put any effort in it)?

I do not know, I guess everything will turn out for the best, I am sure 👍

The Wizard.

love the idea of the new system

im all for it, good thinkin cyril 👍

(my opinion)...

The math system, while not subjective, does short change people big time...

Why?

Because of how rigid and specific the numbers become for each cut-off.

Think about this...
In flat-out's example there was little to no change in the results (seemingly).

However,
1'25.451 - Dr_Watson
1'25.913 - KLR142
1'26.027 - SHigSpeed

KLR gets the silver shaft even though he put up the effort to break under 1'26.

Also, at 1'27.3 for the Mathmatical break...

1'26.646 - shockwaveracing
1'27.111 - Andge08
1'27.185 - Kolyana
1'27.453 - jctraduz
1'27.460 - NielsG
1'27.815 - Drew22
1'27.971 - bleurabbit7

Now andge to nielsg get broken into 2 categories with only .3 seperating them and no "special" mark for anyone to aim for.
All that while, shockwave loses a sense of being the last person getting under that 1'27 mark (since his possible 1'27.0?? would have done just fine and not required the crazed efforts to hit the symbolic mark).

Beyond that, you also find that with a mathmatical system there is a garunteed Bronze placing for atleast 1/3 of the members racing even though they might not have been all that far behind.

Some of the research I was hoping to do...

Week 34 originally
Division 1 :
(replay requested under 1'20.750)
1'20.451 - MinorShunt *
1'20.563 - hOt604bOi *
1'20.589 - holl01 *
1'21.011 - FASJ6418
1'21.061 - jmgyro
1'21.124 - Randymcchickenf *
1'21.249 - VTRacing *
1'21.310 - SHigSpeed *
1'21.357 - VEXD
1'21.534 - Small_Fryz
1'21.699 - bbq0801
1'21.748 - shockwaveracing
1'21.753 - Kent
1'21.808 - jump_ace



Division 2 :
(replay requested under 1'21.750)
1'21.598 - Smallhorses *
1'21.794 - sjaak68 *
1'21.984 - MisterWeary *
1'22.001 - KLR142
1'22.046 - z06fun
1'22.062 - NielsG *
1'22.501 - peachyquaver
1'22.632 - jctraduz
1'22.665 - Drew22
1'23.301 - TheCracker
1'23.338 - flat-out
1'23.872 - ballstothewall
1'31.425 - NickBRed5



Division 3 :
(replay requested under 1'22.500)
1'22.201 - bleurabbit7 *
1'22.403 - TruBoo *
1'22.669 - rotbarsch1979
1'22.752 - GTrackd02
1'23.220 - SimRaceDriver
1'23.774 - GT_Fan2005
1'24.094 - Steve57
1'24.132 - Bee
1'24.756 - peterjford
1'26.154 - Teledriel
1'26.624 - STINGER05
1'26.626 - JIMB


1'22.000 and under = Gold
1'23.000 and under = silver
1'23.000 and slower = bronze

Re-worked results
(Gold and a few D2'ers get credit for beating the slow D1 like myself ... Better than getting D2 status even though they beat the fastest racers in the wrs- D1) (including "weary" who now gets a whole new "top class" finish because of his efforts to break into that new minute)

1'20.451 - MinorShunt *
1'20.563 - hOt604bOi *
1'20.589 - holl01 *
1'21.011 - FASJ6418
1'21.061 - jmgyro
1'21.124 - Randymcchickenf *
1'21.249 - VTRacing *
1'21.310 - SHigSpeed *
1'21.357 - VEXD
1'21.534 - Small_Fryz
1'21.598 - Smallhorses *
1'21.699 - bbq0801
1'21.748 - shockwaveracing
1'21.753 - Kent
1'21.794 - sjaak68 *
1'21.808 - jump_ace
1'21.984 - MisterWeary *

(Silver and a similar situation to the above where some of the "slower division" is now given credit for placing better than most of D2)

1'22.001 - KLR142
1'22.046 - z06fun
1'22.062 - NielsG *
1'22.201 - bleurabbit7 *
1'22.403 - TruBoo *
1'22.501 - peachyquaver
1'22.632 - jctraduz
1'22.665 - Drew22
1'22.669 - rotbarsch1979
1'22.752 - GTrackd02

(Finally, Bronze where the "slower" racers are placed)

However, instead of being riddled by the stigma of being the "slowest" racers in the WRS (labeled as D3), these racers are now only burdened with doing better next week and instantly getting that "silver status" (or better).

Now the question becomes, would the mathmatical break represent the efforts of those who went the extra mile to break a second-barrier?

What do you all think of these points?

Btw, in the poll I voted to use the new system (not to use my idea).

Finally...
Don't forget that Subjective moderator decisions already divide us!
Each individual get promotions and demotions based on subjective evaluation of the racer's performance... Also, Demotions haven't come up much but they rarely occur even though they should but in the new system a demotion could be for only one week!

Of course, last but not least... On the same note as the subjective example above (regarding promotions).

The divisions themselves are based on my original subjective placements!
Assuming the BMW at Infineon is still the qualifier, I decided those marks based on my own idea of what marks seperated us (all based on the exact system I'm touting now).

So... What do you all think?

Well upon further consideration, I also thought this new system will really weed out anyone who is just racing 'half @$$' (like what I've been doing during my rally series...LOL) Because now there is the possibility of demotion, it *could make less people race while at the same time *could heighten the competition of the remaining drivers. Take my case for example, I just got promoted to D1 and now because I dont want to be a 'silver' driver i*IF* I choose to do that weeks race I'm gonna have even more motivation to do better just so I dont always come in the 'silver' come tuesday. This I think might be hard on newcomers, but then again the WRS is meant for us to be better, CLEANER and Consitent drivers so the more the merrier.

@Kent, so to make sure I understand what you mean; you are saying to be more fair we should use (or rather F.O should use) a more basic division of placement. Much like the divisions used in the License tests in the game. So drop the standard deviation setup and when the results come in Cyril will say this week anyone under 2:30 is Gold, Under 2:32 is Silver and over 2:32 is Bronze. Or am I way off base here? I see advantages to both.....I'll have to ponder that one mate.

Jerome

That's exactly what I'm saying and the post above was my best attempt to show all of us why it works so well and at the same time why we are already racing under that system without realizing it.

(and none of this has included the odd balls that carelessly race the qualifier only to end up beating most, if not all of D2).

Just to emphasize, read my post here...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2048572&postcount=19
(link to my most recent post in this thread)


Also, look here...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51492
My thoughts on this exact subject from november last year!
(Research on 4 weeks of results being restructured using this "new" system. Shows both the original and new results list).

Just one question Kent old bean,

Why, if someone was demoted for consistantly running below the level required for their division, ie golds 4 D1, silvers 4 D2, bronzes 4 D3, would they only be demoted for one week only?

My suggestion was for a 12 week cycle, which was chosen arbitrarily because it made the math easier in my head. Cyril has, quite rightly, pointed out that that might be too long a period for most of us racers here. So a shorter period could be used, but to re-shuffle divisions weekly would be totally impractical.

And I do see your point about the mathmatical solution being possibly unfair to certain guys who had busted their butts to break a second barrier (Don't we all do that?), but on the other hand, it would also be impartial and not up for question.

And the fact that it would be worked out that way would stop guys who are new, feeling that the moderator (whoever that may be at the time) could be being partisan towards the regulars (not that i am suggesting that it would ever happen that way)

After all is said and done, the top-flight guys are the top-flight guys, and they will usually get the golds, with the rest of us fighting it out for the silvers and bronzes.
Maybe a slightly better split 'mean+0.75sd' instead of 'mean+0.5sd' for bronze times could be used to give more silvers and less bronzes, but that would be up to Cyril.

Neil

Well don't forget...

Divisions would not be re-assigned each week since the divisions themselves would not exist any more.

Instead, we would be able to fluidly move from bronze, silver, and gold rankings based on week to week performances.

Regarding the subjectivity...
I've made my best argument for that and the bottom lines of that were saying "we already use a subjective system."

Anyone who would see their exclusion from gold or silver because of a 1'23.023 is probably the same kind of person that would make similar accusations about not being promoted or demoted after several consistant weeks of results.

Also, based on the examples made here... ( https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2048572&postcount=19 )

I think it becomes obvious that discretion is needed for a situation like this.

Fact is, excel will not recognize the importance of getting 1'22.999 vs 1'23.000... But we will notice that.

For that matter, if excel calculated a break at 1'22.998 and you scored 1'22.999, it would be a real downer not to get that gold rank even though you were right under that special second-mark.

Personally, I can't wait to see this week's results so more of these re-organizations can be created.

Ahhh!

That assumes that the divisions are gonna be scrapped, of course.

My suggestion is to keep the divisions, but use the G/S/B system for scoring and sorting promotions/demotions.

But, i see your point about the thousandths of a second, however that could still happen with the subjective method too!

Cyril picks say 1'20.000 and below for gold,1'21.000 and below for silver and someone gets 1'20.001............same situation but with that someone maybe getting P.O'd at Cyril for picking 1'20.000.

Take the person out of the equation and the only person that someone can get P.O'd at is themselves for not going faster!

Anyway, it's 2.50am here at the mo, and i'm goin to bed!

It's been a blast to have an intellectual discussion, without any fallin out.



Might not be on for the next couple of days, so.....

If i'm not on before,

Merry Crimbo to all!
Neil

but we're racing against a clock... and clocks aren't forgiving.
if you miss a gold time in the license test by .001, you get silver. just as if you had beaten the bronze time by .001.
when you start arbitrarily drawing lines wherever you feel like, it devalues the point of the line. if you want to draw the lines fairly and impartially, you draw them with math. If the line is drawn mathmatically, you know by looking at your result exactly how you did relative to the other competitors. Where if you draw arbitrary lines, you look at the results and only know how well you did based on what the person running the competition thinks is fast. And IMO, that doesn't mean as much.

I'll use me as a pro-math example:
i was in div2 for something like 20 weeks... using the arbitrary system; last time i raced i got promoted to div1. i didn't get promoted because i got faster, i got promoted because everyone in div2 that was better than me had already been promoted. under the new system, I'd wager that my performances to-date would rank mostly silvers with a scattering of random gold.

oh, and on a similar vein, IMO
if the driver who won got 1'23.000 than 1'22.999 has some sort of importance.
if the driver who won got 1'19.854 than 1'22.999 vs 1'23.000 means exactly what it shows; 1 one-hundreth of a second.

Well that is a valid point about the 1'20.001.

However, 1'20.001 is obviously just shy of a major mark and all those who would run a 1'20.001, although proud, would certainly recognize that.

While I do understand that a person would be mad about that, I can't see how they could honestly look to the race mod and say "my 1'20.001 should be grouped with all those others who went below 1'20.000."

Also, in any situation like this, a person submitting a 1'20.001 should be well prepared to accept "silver" instead of "gold" because it is obvious that they may be .001 off a major division point.

This entire situation is very difficult to judge.
I recognize that much. 👍

However, my views on the subject have existed for a long, long time now.

In the end I see the proposed new system as a better way to rank and reward players.

I also see the proposed system as being more similar to the game's existant license testing.

Plus, I'm sure it would never happen, but...

What if all the racers finished with times that were within one second of the fastest person?

Should the bottom 1/3rd be split away from the top 2/3rds even though only they were only about .666 behind?

Or what about this example?

Week 30 Originally...
Division 1 :

6'54.954 - holl01 *
6'56.016 - veilsidebr *
6'59.097 - jmgyro *
7'00.136 - hOt604bOi
7'01.227 - Kent *
7'01.793 - VTRacing *
7'03.624 - CFM *
7'03.658 - Small_Fryz *
7'03.835 - vexd
7'04.363 - Puck927
7'04.930 - MinorShunt *
7'08.999 - Toffe
7'10.494 - TheWizard *
7'12.743 - SHigSpeed
7'33.245 - jase86



Division 2 :

7'02.981 - Dr_Watson *
7'05.914 - shockwaveracing *
7'07.969 - KLR142
7'08.543 - MisterWeary *
7'08.661 - jump_ace
7'09.963 - Blake
7'13.131 - Casio
7'16.727 - Drew22
7'30.436 - NickBRed5
7'50.293 - flat-out *



Division 3 :

7'11.695 - Electric.......
7'11.833 - STINGER05
7'12.750 - bleurabbit7 *
7'14.030 - Jetboys427
7'15.460 - GT_Fan2005
7'18.816 - Steve57
7'24.278 - TruBoo
7'31.522 - speedthrill
7'36.309 - GTrackd02
7'42.831 - Teledriel
8'17.562 - smilely_leo

Now with "my" system...

(under 7'05.000 = Gold)
6'54.954 - holl01 *
6'56.016 - veilsidebr *
6'59.097 - jmgyro *
7'00.136 - hOt604bOi
7'01.227 - Kent *
7'01.793 - VTRacing *
7'02.981 - Dr_Watson *
7'03.624 - CFM *
7'03.658 - Small_Fryz *
7'03.835 - vexd
7'04.363 - Puck927
7'04.930 - MinorShunt *

(Over 7'05.000, under 7'15.000 = Silver)
7'05.914 - shockwaveracing *
7'07.969 - KLR142
7'08.543 - MisterWeary *
7'08.661 - jump_ace
7'08.999 - Toffe
7'09.963 - Blake
7'10.494 - TheWizard *
7'11.695 - Electric.......
7'11.833 - STINGER05
7'12.743 - SHigSpeed
7'12.750 - bleurabbit7 *
7'13.131 - Casio
7'14.030 - Jetboys427

(Over 7'15.000 = Bronze)
7'16.727 - Drew22
7'18.816 - Steve57
7'24.278 - TruBoo
7'30.436 - NickBRed5
7'31.522 - speedthrill
7'33.245 - jase86
7'36.309 - GTrackd02
7'42.831 - Teledriel
7'50.293 - flat-out *
8'17.562 - smilely_leo

Now with that posted, would someone be willing to tell me how they would turn out with excel and the mathmatical system? (Sorry but my PC doesn't have Excel)

I bet the fact that over 1 minute seperates first and last would really skew the mathmatical results and at the same time create an huge "gold" class even though the "gold" class should be reserved for "elite" laps.

Also, don't forget that slicing away the top and bottom times wouldn't be representitive in this case since there is a wall spaced result for both extremes.

Plus, like I've been saying, the divisions are already based on subjective placements.

Anyway, that's just another piece of input from me...
Let me know what you all think.

I think the system that Cyril proposed will work just fine, if he uses Mean and Standard Deviation you can't get much fairer than that. I'm a teacher and I have to deal with that stuff everyday, ranking students in a fair manner and deciding who gets A's, B's and C's etc, it works...trust me

How would the replay requests work? The same as they do now, under a certain mark?

At the moment, in your division, it doesn't matter what time you get as long as it's below the replay request time for your division. However, under the new system, if you were say in the Silver Replay Request zone, and went even faster into a low gold time, you wouldn't have to submit? For example the week 34 that has been quoted a few times, I got the fastest D2 time, but couldn't verify, so it didn't count. However in the new system, I would of got a mid-high, gold time, with probably not a replay being requested. But if I had of gone only a few tenths slower, I would probably have had a requested Silver time.

Sounds open to a bit of time snipping, if you know what I mean. I know all the regular WRS's and I know that none of you would do this. But if you get rid of divisions, anybody can just come in, see the spilt times, and calculate themself a Gold time.

But apart from that, I think it's a great idea. These days, especially if you look at this weeks leaderboard, there isn't that much gap between Division 1 and Division 2, so it would be good to rid of the divisions.

Also, with the number of people racing dimishing (look at last week), it seems pretty pointless to continue divisions when only 5-10 people race frequently in each.

Casio

How would the replay requests work? The same as they do now, under a certain mark?

At the moment, in your division, it doesn't matter what time you get as long as it's below the replay request time for your division. However, under the new system, if you were say in the Silver Replay Request zone, and went even faster into a low gold time, you wouldn't have to submit?

Click to expand...

well... since everyone would be in the same "pool" it would seem fair that the gold time was the replay threshold. aka, ALL gold times require replays.
why request replays for silver and bronze when they aren't divisions, merely classifications of results. you have to get your head out of the "divisional thinking" before it makes perfect sense.

Kent

Now with that posted, would someone be willing to tell me how they would turn out with excel and the mathmatical system? (Sorry but my PC doesn't have Excel)

Click to expand...

here you go:

in seconds:
mean 434.74
StDev 16.91

Gold: (under 7'06.285)
6'54.954 holl01
6'56.016 veilsidebr
6'59.097 jmgyro
7'00.136 hOt604bOi
7'01.227 Kent
7'01.793 VTRacing
7'02.981 Dr_Watson
7'03.624 CFM
7'03.658 Small_Fryz
7'03.835 vexd
7'04.363 Puck927
7'04.930 MinorShunt
7'05.914 shockwaveracing

Silver: (7'06.286 - 7'23.195)
7'07.969 KLR142
7'08.543 MisterWeary
7'08.661 jump_ace
7'08.999 Toffe
7'09.963 Blake
7'10.494 TheWizard
7'11.695 Electric
7'11.833 STINGER05
7'12.743 SHigSpeed
7'12.750 bleurabbit7
7'13.131 Casio
7'14.030 Jetboys427
7'15.460 GT_Fan2005
7'16.727 Drew22
7'18.816 Steve57

Bronze: (over 7'23.195)
7'24.278 TruBoo
7'30.436 NickBRed5
7'31.522 speedthrill
7'33.245 jase86
7'36.309 GTrackd02
7'42.831 Teledriel
7'50.293 flat-out
8'17.562 smilely_leo

------------------------ With outliers figured in ------------------------
using 2x StDev from mean
upper bound 400.92 sec == no lower outliers (x < 6'40.920 = outlier)
lower bound 468.56 sec == 2 upper outliers (x > 7'48.560 = outlier)

the new marks become:
gold: 7'06.005
Silver: 7'17.695

so, normalized results would be:

Gold:
6'54.954 holl01
6'56.016 veilsidebr
6'59.097 jmgyro
7'00.136 hOt604bOi
7'01.227 Kent
7'01.793 VTRacing
7'02.981 Dr_Watson
7'03.624 CFM
7'03.658 Small_Fryz
7'03.835 vexd
7'04.363 Puck927
7'04.930 MinorShunt
7'05.914 shockwaveracing

Silver:
7'07.969 KLR142
7'08.543 MisterWeary
7'08.661 jump_ace
7'08.999 Toffe
7'09.963 Blake
7'10.494 TheWizard
7'11.695 Electric
7'11.833 STINGER05
7'12.743 SHigSpeed
7'12.750 bleurabbit7
7'13.131 Casio
7'14.030 Jetboys427
7'15.460 GT_Fan2005
7'16.727 Drew22

Bronze:
7'18.816 Steve57
7'24.278 TruBoo
7'30.436 NickBRed5
7'31.522 speedthrill
7'33.245 jase86
7'36.309 GTrackd02
7'42.831 Teledriel
7'50.293 flat-out
8'17.562 smilely_leo

and here is all of it in side-by-side comparison format:



edit:
I find it ironic that flat-out gets the shaft in this example.