- 3,105
- GTP_MisterWeary
That's some nice work Doc, this whole gold/silver/bronze thing sounds like a smashing idea đź‘Ť
A new ranking system for 2006 ?
- Thread starter Tedehur
- 108 comments
- 4,826 views
- 2,076
- Aarhus, Denmark
- GTP_NielsG2
I voted for keeping the division system. I can see the pro and cons on both system, so this is what mainly decided my vote:
I think that we have a very unique division concept here in the WRS. I joined the Planet and the WRS, because of that very concept. It gave me an opportunity to race against other racers at my level. Right from the start I got a fair chance of actually winning something. đź‘Ť
With the new supposed system I would have been getting a lot of bronze and an occasional silver.
In my point of view the new system, just do what all the other ordinary OLR does. Placing you in a long row. Well, I'll get my 27th place AND a bronze. Great.
2 weeks ago I finally got my first podium place in WRS GT4. That made me very happy. Depending on if we use Cyril's spreadsheet or Kent's subjective system, it could have been a gold. And so what. Instead of being the last gold I was getting second in my division.
Being placed in a division have always made me feel part of a group. I was battling against those fellow "divisioners". Yet still being able to compare to all the other racers. I have always taken pride in the division I have been racing in. There have always been a certain feel of mutual connection within the divisions. I would hate to lose that.
The above is off course my most humble and strictly personal opinion. And please bear in mind, that what really have kept me in the WRS for over 2 years for now is the good company from my fellow racers.
I think that we have a very unique division concept here in the WRS. I joined the Planet and the WRS, because of that very concept. It gave me an opportunity to race against other racers at my level. Right from the start I got a fair chance of actually winning something. đź‘Ť
With the new supposed system I would have been getting a lot of bronze and an occasional silver.
In my point of view the new system, just do what all the other ordinary OLR does. Placing you in a long row. Well, I'll get my 27th place AND a bronze. Great.
2 weeks ago I finally got my first podium place in WRS GT4. That made me very happy. Depending on if we use Cyril's spreadsheet or Kent's subjective system, it could have been a gold. And so what. Instead of being the last gold I was getting second in my division.
Being placed in a division have always made me feel part of a group. I was battling against those fellow "divisioners". Yet still being able to compare to all the other racers. I have always taken pride in the division I have been racing in. There have always been a certain feel of mutual connection within the divisions. I would hate to lose that.
The above is off course my most humble and strictly personal opinion. And please bear in mind, that what really have kept me in the WRS for over 2 years for now is the good company from my fellow racers.
Tedehur
Staff Emeritus
- 4,322
- France
- Z spec
Thanks for your input.
Subjective system
Kent has a point with the subjective system : we all have a time we aim at while practising, and we regularly mention in the thread that we've finally broken under a certain second mark.
So whether we want it or not, every racer uses a subjective system, and the ranking has to reflect this.
Let's imagine a racer who has a clean 1'30.010 but tries like hell to run a clean time under the 1'30 mark. He/she eventually gets a clean 1'29.975 and submits it, very satisfied with this performance.
What happens then if the mathematical calculation sets a cut-off at 1'29.970 ?
That racer will have spent hours trying to save those 35 thousandths for nothing since it's not gonna change his ranking. Very frustrating !
(Thanks for deleting your post Kent, it made me read this one more carefully than others
)
I think someone who submits a 1'29.999 expects to be rewarded while someone who submits a 1'30.001 has already sort of given up. The cut-off mark has to reflect this and be a subjective (=round) figure.
This can easily be done by a human rounding of the cut-off value given by the formula. When Excel shows 1'29.975, I can decide to use 1'30.000 instead and thus introduce the subjective part we expect.
Replays request
Casio has a point there, since I haven't made up my mind about that.
Replays could be requested for top Gold/Silver/Bronze times, and in that case Casio would indeed haven't been DQ'ed in the week he mentions.
Or else replays could be requested on an average performance basis : I mean someone who constantly runs silver times and suddenly submits a mid-gold time would be subject to a replay request.
Dr_Watson's suggestion to request a replay from all gold times is a point, but it would ignore someone who runs a constant low bronze and suddenly gets a top silver. Or the newcomer who gets a top silver time without having to run the qualifier. Which makes me think that we could keep the Qualifier as the way to estimate the level of performance of newcomers.
Would it be me, providing a replay would be mandatory, as it is in other series. But that's not an issue now, and I'm not gonna change this... yet.
Number of racers
Casio mentions that there's no point in keeping a division system when only 5 to 10 racers submit in each division.
That has nothing to do with my wish to change the ranking system. We had 18 submissions last week, which is indeed the smallest in the GT4 WRS.
But in the GT3 WRS, 18 was the average number of submissions, and the divisions system worked fine.
Our average number of submissions is 50 over the 36 weeks, and 31 over my own 7 weeks. Still far above the GT3 average.
As for the number of Bronze racers, it's not gonna be fixed to 1/3 as Kent states : it all depends on the relative performances. A real crap performance will drag the mean up without increasing the standard deviation, and the cut-off marks will be higher, resulting in more Golds and Silvers than Bronzes. On the othe hand, an astonishing good performance will have the opposite effect and result in more Silvers and Bronzes than Golds. Ignoring times that are way too fast or slow (see below) is a way to handle this.
Week 30 example
I use 3 decimals in my calculation, so I have different figures, but the splitting remain the same as what Dr_Watson posted.
Gold under 7'06.290, Bronze above 7'23.199
Excluding from the calculation all times that are more than 2xsigma away from the mean is also an option : I need to test this with several weeks to see if it's really worth. Is has a good effect on week 32, since it leads to 8G/8S/8B instead of 8G/12S/4B if all times are used in the calculation.
What about using an hybrid system : let formulas work out the 7'06.290 and 7'23.199 marks and then consider the effect on the splitting :
In that way we have a mathematical system subjectively rounded to avoid the situation where similar times would not have the same reward.
Conclusion
The calculation system is something we need to work a little bit more on in the days to come. I trust you to explore this topic thoroughly.
I'd like to have your reaction about the fact that leaderboards as they exist would disappear, mainly the div 3 leaderboard which would become pointless, and about what we should do with the Qualifier.
Subjective system
Kent has a point with the subjective system : we all have a time we aim at while practising, and we regularly mention in the thread that we've finally broken under a certain second mark.
So whether we want it or not, every racer uses a subjective system, and the ranking has to reflect this.
Let's imagine a racer who has a clean 1'30.010 but tries like hell to run a clean time under the 1'30 mark. He/she eventually gets a clean 1'29.975 and submits it, very satisfied with this performance.
What happens then if the mathematical calculation sets a cut-off at 1'29.970 ?
That racer will have spent hours trying to save those 35 thousandths for nothing since it's not gonna change his ranking. Very frustrating !
(Thanks for deleting your post Kent, it made me read this one more carefully than others
)I think someone who submits a 1'29.999 expects to be rewarded while someone who submits a 1'30.001 has already sort of given up. The cut-off mark has to reflect this and be a subjective (=round) figure.
This can easily be done by a human rounding of the cut-off value given by the formula. When Excel shows 1'29.975, I can decide to use 1'30.000 instead and thus introduce the subjective part we expect.
Replays request
Casio has a point there, since I haven't made up my mind about that.
Replays could be requested for top Gold/Silver/Bronze times, and in that case Casio would indeed haven't been DQ'ed in the week he mentions.
Or else replays could be requested on an average performance basis : I mean someone who constantly runs silver times and suddenly submits a mid-gold time would be subject to a replay request.
Dr_Watson's suggestion to request a replay from all gold times is a point, but it would ignore someone who runs a constant low bronze and suddenly gets a top silver. Or the newcomer who gets a top silver time without having to run the qualifier. Which makes me think that we could keep the Qualifier as the way to estimate the level of performance of newcomers.
Would it be me, providing a replay would be mandatory, as it is in other series. But that's not an issue now, and I'm not gonna change this... yet.
Number of racers
Casio mentions that there's no point in keeping a division system when only 5 to 10 racers submit in each division.
That has nothing to do with my wish to change the ranking system. We had 18 submissions last week, which is indeed the smallest in the GT4 WRS.
But in the GT3 WRS, 18 was the average number of submissions, and the divisions system worked fine.
Our average number of submissions is 50 over the 36 weeks, and 31 over my own 7 weeks. Still far above the GT3 average.
As for the number of Bronze racers, it's not gonna be fixed to 1/3 as Kent states : it all depends on the relative performances. A real crap performance will drag the mean up without increasing the standard deviation, and the cut-off marks will be higher, resulting in more Golds and Silvers than Bronzes. On the othe hand, an astonishing good performance will have the opposite effect and result in more Silvers and Bronzes than Golds. Ignoring times that are way too fast or slow (see below) is a way to handle this.
Week 30 example
I use 3 decimals in my calculation, so I have different figures, but the splitting remain the same as what Dr_Watson posted.
Gold under 7'06.290, Bronze above 7'23.199
Excluding from the calculation all times that are more than 2xsigma away from the mean is also an option : I need to test this with several weeks to see if it's really worth. Is has a good effect on week 32, since it leads to 8G/8S/8B instead of 8G/12S/4B if all times are used in the calculation.
What about using an hybrid system : let formulas work out the 7'06.290 and 7'23.199 marks and then consider the effect on the splitting :
- 7'05.914 - shockwaveracing
- 7'06.290 - Gold/Silver cut off
- 7'07.969 - KLR142
- 7'18.816 - Steve57
- 7'23.199 - Silver/Bronze cut off
- 7'24.278 - TruBoo
In that way we have a mathematical system subjectively rounded to avoid the situation where similar times would not have the same reward.
Conclusion
The calculation system is something we need to work a little bit more on in the days to come. I trust you to explore this topic thoroughly.
I'd like to have your reaction about the fact that leaderboards as they exist would disappear, mainly the div 3 leaderboard which would become pointless, and about what we should do with the Qualifier.
- 7,956
- BradleyH131
With regards to the qualifier, I think it should be kept to show how fast someone 'natually' is. Like you said someone could just come in without a qualifier, and post any time. Where as if someone runs the qualifier in a slower time, then posts an uber quick time, then you could request a replay.
Alternatively, maybe we could all run another qualifier, and get a percentage of the fastest time, and if someone goes over a certain percentage quicker then the percentage of the qualifing time, a replay could be requested. (I hope that makes sence) For example; if Driver X qualifies 20% slower then the fastest Qualifier, then in the next race gets to within 5%, then a replay is required.
EDIT: Forgot to add, the reason why I was wondering if we really need divisions. With on average 31 people submitted, that's 10 per division more or less. How long will it take before everyone ends up in division 1? At the moment, usually after the 2nd or 3rd win or podium, you move up a division. Then the people who come slightly below you now win because the winners have moved up. With 10 people per division, people are almost getting podiums and high places by default because nobody else entered.
Alternatively, maybe we could all run another qualifier, and get a percentage of the fastest time, and if someone goes over a certain percentage quicker then the percentage of the qualifing time, a replay could be requested. (I hope that makes sence) For example; if Driver X qualifies 20% slower then the fastest Qualifier, then in the next race gets to within 5%, then a replay is required.
EDIT: Forgot to add, the reason why I was wondering if we really need divisions. With on average 31 people submitted, that's 10 per division more or less. How long will it take before everyone ends up in division 1? At the moment, usually after the 2nd or 3rd win or podium, you move up a division. Then the people who come slightly below you now win because the winners have moved up. With 10 people per division, people are almost getting podiums and high places by default because nobody else entered.
Tedehur
Staff Emeritus
- 4,322
- France
- Z spec
NielsGI voted for keeping the division system. I can see the pro and cons on both system, so this is what mainly decided my vote:
I think that we have a very unique division concept here in the WRS. I joined the Planet and the WRS, because of that very concept. It gave me an opportunity to race against other racers at my level. Right from the start I got a fair chance of actually winning something. đź‘Ť
With the new supposed system I would have been getting a lot of bronze and an occasional silver.
In my point of view the new system, just do what all the other ordinary OLR does. Placing you in a long row. Well, I'll get my 27th place AND a bronze. Great.
2 weeks ago I finally got my first podium place in WRS GT4. That made me very happy. Depending on if we use Cyril's spreadsheet or Kent's subjective system, it could have been a gold. And so what. Instead of being the last gold I was getting second in my division.
Being placed in a division have always made me feel part of a group. I was battling against those fellow "divisioners". Yet still being able to compare to all the other racers. I have always taken pride in the division I have been racing in. There have always been a certain feel of mutual connection within the divisions. I would hate to lose that.
The above is off course my most humble and strictly personal opinion. And please bear in mind, that what really have kept me in the WRS for over 2 years for now is the good company from my fellow racers.
Too true.
But I find it hard to know what our expectations would have been with a different system. I don't think that being the slowest gold would have been such a disappointing result, I think your reaction would probably have been "Yes, I finally get a Gold !".
And the ranking system doesn't affect the internal friendly competition. You still can compare your performance with your fellow drivers.
The most important thing (to me) in the WRS is the friendly atmosphere, and it goes far beyond the division structure. I remember my first races (week 65 in the GT3 WRS) : I was div 2 and had excellent battles with a fellow div 3 racer who was running similar times. Yet we were not in the same division.
We would probably have fought in the Bronze category at that time, with some rare Silvers. Would it have been less challenging ? I don't think so.
Being half a second faster than your fellow racers stays the same, whether it is called div1,2,3 or Gold/Silver/Bronze.
Don't get me wrong : I'm not trying to convince you of anything. The purpose of this thread is that everybody can post their opinion, and there is no good or bad opinion. I just wanted to stress the fact that the G/S/B system would be a total change and it's very difficult to think at it using the existing value system in the WRS. Thanks for your input đź‘Ť
Well, I'm not sure that I should even really be posting this as I'm not a wrs driver, but I'm going to anyway. I think that dividing g/s/b by .5 second intervals is not a good way to do things. Breaking a certain second mark when you're just that little bit off is something people get a sense of pride from, but having g/s/b intervals of .5 eliminates the motivation you might have to improve a X:x4.321 or similar time if you think you can't break that next interval. I do like the idea of readjusting the break points based on whole tenths rather than strictly using the formula and leaving the numbers as is. Maybe I can't bring that time down to X:x3.xxx, but I might be able to get it into the X:x4.2xx or X:x4.1xx range and perhaps that'll be enough to go up from bronze to silver.
I like the idea of a hybrid system that maintains the 3 division structure and implements the g/s/b system onto the top of that. Essentially, the results would be displayed as a full listing of everyone in the g/s/b categories that they placed in and what time they ran, but in addition to that the podium (possibly top 5) for each division would be posted. Those podium results would then be used to determine who would need to submit replays. I think promotion/demotion between divisions should be handled by using the g/s/b rankings and recompiled every 13 weeks (quarterly) using the methodology posted by Neil with a slight modification. Instead of ignoring those that have competed in less than 50% of the races I think they should only be eligible for demotion. That way nobody can get a couple golds and then not race to get to D1 and if somebody's only racing every once in a while they'll still have to try their best if they want to maintain their division.
If it's decided that only the g/s/b system will be used, I think that the qualifier can be effectively eliminated. In it's stead any new racers would be required to submit a replay for their first (possibly more) race(s) regardless of their time's placement. That way it can be assured that they're running clean laps and understand the rules. Once that's been established they'll be just be subject to normal replay verification rules. With a hybrid system I think the qualifier needs to remain in order to place people in a division to start off with. If elimination of the qualifier is desired it could be done by having a new racer assigned a division after their first 4 races based on their results in those. Of course, they would be ineligible for podiums until they get a division and this method is less than ideal imo.
I like the idea of a hybrid system that maintains the 3 division structure and implements the g/s/b system onto the top of that. Essentially, the results would be displayed as a full listing of everyone in the g/s/b categories that they placed in and what time they ran, but in addition to that the podium (possibly top 5) for each division would be posted. Those podium results would then be used to determine who would need to submit replays. I think promotion/demotion between divisions should be handled by using the g/s/b rankings and recompiled every 13 weeks (quarterly) using the methodology posted by Neil with a slight modification. Instead of ignoring those that have competed in less than 50% of the races I think they should only be eligible for demotion. That way nobody can get a couple golds and then not race to get to D1 and if somebody's only racing every once in a while they'll still have to try their best if they want to maintain their division.
If it's decided that only the g/s/b system will be used, I think that the qualifier can be effectively eliminated. In it's stead any new racers would be required to submit a replay for their first (possibly more) race(s) regardless of their time's placement. That way it can be assured that they're running clean laps and understand the rules. Once that's been established they'll be just be subject to normal replay verification rules. With a hybrid system I think the qualifier needs to remain in order to place people in a division to start off with. If elimination of the qualifier is desired it could be done by having a new racer assigned a division after their first 4 races based on their results in those. Of course, they would be ineligible for podiums until they get a division and this method is less than ideal imo.
Tedehur
Staff Emeritus
- 4,322
- France
- Z spec
Further to Dr_Watson's question (by PM) about what the results of the Qualifier would look like according to this G/S/B system, here are the info :
The current Qualification board features 371 drivers, split as follows (I ignore promotions, only the submitted time in the M3 matters) :
div 1 : 35
div 2 : 147
div 3 : 189
Applying the G/S/B calculation on these 371 times gives :
Gold : 123
Silver : 163
Bronze : 85
The Gold/Silver cut-off time is 1.443 second slower than the cut-off between div 1 and div 2 ; and the Silver/Bronze cut-off time is 2.324 seconds slower than the one between div 2 and div 3.
But the comparison is pointless since Kent had chosen the cut-offs a priori without having any time submitted, while we have 371 times at our disposal.
I did the same calculation after having ignored all times that are further than twice the standard deviation from the mean (which represent 19 times), and it gives :
Gold : 118
Silver : 134
Bronze : 100
The cut-off times are now respectively 1.386 and 1.448 seconds slower.
From the 19 racers promoted from div 2 to div 1, 14 would have qualified as Gold with the new system, and only 5 as Silver.
From the 17 racers promoted from div 3 to div 2, 13 would have qualified as Silver with the new system, and only 4 as Bronze.
Concerning the hybrid system, I'll keep on thinking about it, but it just goes in the wrong direction : it makes things more complex and less flexible than they are now.
For instance it strengthens the idea that racers have to race every week to get a decent ranking, while I'm looking for some more immediate reward of a driver's performance. The WRS has to stay something fun and enjoyable, not a pain in the neck. (Except for the current race that is )
It definitely mustn't become as structured as a RL championship is.
The current Qualification board features 371 drivers, split as follows (I ignore promotions, only the submitted time in the M3 matters) :
div 1 : 35
div 2 : 147
div 3 : 189
Applying the G/S/B calculation on these 371 times gives :
Gold : 123
Silver : 163
Bronze : 85
The Gold/Silver cut-off time is 1.443 second slower than the cut-off between div 1 and div 2 ; and the Silver/Bronze cut-off time is 2.324 seconds slower than the one between div 2 and div 3.
But the comparison is pointless since Kent had chosen the cut-offs a priori without having any time submitted, while we have 371 times at our disposal.
I did the same calculation after having ignored all times that are further than twice the standard deviation from the mean (which represent 19 times), and it gives :
Gold : 118
Silver : 134
Bronze : 100
The cut-off times are now respectively 1.386 and 1.448 seconds slower.
From the 19 racers promoted from div 2 to div 1, 14 would have qualified as Gold with the new system, and only 5 as Silver.
From the 17 racers promoted from div 3 to div 2, 13 would have qualified as Silver with the new system, and only 4 as Bronze.
Concerning the hybrid system, I'll keep on thinking about it, but it just goes in the wrong direction : it makes things more complex and less flexible than they are now.
For instance it strengthens the idea that racers have to race every week to get a decent ranking, while I'm looking for some more immediate reward of a driver's performance. The WRS has to stay something fun and enjoyable, not a pain in the neck. (Except for the current race that is
)It definitely mustn't become as structured as a RL championship is.
- 2,028
I like things the way they are because I'm a grumpy old sot. I always liked having rivals within my division, and having the status of a Div.1 driver that I worked hard for. But that's just me. Like neils said, with the current system anyone has a chance to get a win within their division.
If anyone can manage to pull off a new way of running the WRS though, it's Cyril. You've got too much energy dude!
Happy holidays everyone! One of these days I'll pop in here and have some laps when the combo strikes my fancy. Too busy with XBOX Live right now.
If anyone can manage to pull off a new way of running the WRS though, it's Cyril. You've got too much energy dude!
Happy holidays everyone! One of these days I'll pop in here and have some laps when the combo strikes my fancy. Too busy with XBOX Live right now.
- 1,210
- Drew22
Like CFM, I'm a grumpy old man and I hate change, I'm voting to keep it the way it is, but I wouldn't slit my throat if everyone wants to change. I'm up for whatever the group as a whole wants. We all live in a Democracy... last sentence edited, flat-out
- 9,743
- Portland, OR
- Jump_Ace
- JUMPxACE
Okay so lets say we adopt the 'Golden System' I guess we'll have to ask real nice for Luxy to change the colors on the leaderboard. But that could prove a little more difficult than it seems as we can have a yellow(or a bright orange for gold, dark orange/brown for bronze but what about silver, would it be hard to see against the white background? and the leaderboard has a staggered white and grey background too so gray and white may be out. Or, I guess we could keep the current colors, but then every single new person would ask well, why am I green colored when bronze is brown, or why am I orange when silver is well...silver? Or I guess I could be missing something totally obvious here it is afterall 8:30am...lol. Just a thought.
jump_ace
jump_ace
Tedehur
Staff Emeritus
- 4,322
- France
- Z spec
jump_ace
For the lazy webmasters here is what I would use :
Gold = #E0BD1C
Silver = #A5A5A5
Bronze = #CD5419
Luxu's leaderboard has a white background when I look at it, but I don't know if it's defined in the CSS or if it's due to my browser settings. (And I'm too lazy to check).
- 9,743
- Portland, OR
- Jump_Ace
- JUMPxACE
That looks good Cyril, I just am not sure how wellt he silver will show up on the staggered gray lines he has, but if its dark enough great and maybe we can have Luke lighten up the grey a little too to add a better contrast? Sorry for the fuss 
jump_ace
jump_ace
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
first sentence edited, flat-out
Anyway, regarding the subject at hand...
I think flat-out hit the nail on the head when he suggested a combination of the 2 systems we are looking at.
Use the calculations and the Std.
Then round the number to the closest "second-mark" going up if the std. goes over .500 and rounding down if the number is below .500.
That would allow us to not use the odd marks for seperating times but at the same time it would allow us to be fair about setting up who ends up with what.
Also, I suggest only removing the Slow times that go beyond 2std away from the mean.
The reason I say that is because, we should want an honest view of what gold is... If we remove the fastest time because it is so far ahead then it will only leave us with false golds.
However, we do need to remove any sort of "way-slow" times because that is one of the few exploitable features to this system (that being to turn in a super slow time just so the system is held back and gold or silver will be more easily achieved).
I just want to mention that I think the biggest voices in this discussion should come from 2 types of people.
1) Mid pack finishers from each division.
They are the ones who have been neglected in our "winnings" and it would be nice to see what they think of the system.
2) D2 and D3 racers.
D1 has always been racing against itself mostly so we need to see how D2 and D3 feel about this since they are the groups with the most to gain (or lose I guess).
Also, on one final note that I know people don't like to hear, but it must be said...
Remember, the podiums in D2 and D3 are artificial.
We are all actually racing each other.
There is not some super-human advantage D1 racers have that allows them to naturally and more easily race faster... The only difference between D1 and the other divisions is the fact that D1 usually finishes with a faster time (regardless of why, we are all still racing with the same type of human hands and brains).
We are all humans and that is the most basic level to judge each of us on.
Finally, I just want to mention a few odds and ends...
I didn't randomly select the division cutoffs.
Those times are at even "second-barriers" based on marks I decided after seeing all of the qualifers times that had been submitted before Week 1 began.
That is also another reminder that we are already working on a system of seperation by time and not some mystical skill level meter.
Regarding rivals...
This sort of system will give us the chance to be rivals with many people, often even more than before because we will no longer be seperated by the artificial division lines.
Hence, anyone looking for a gold time will now be rivals to one another. đź‘Ť
Also, hate to say it, but Jump ace, you are missing something.
See, the leaderboard wouldn't need colors since there wouldn't be any divisions.
Plus, it wouldn't need colors since the "G/S/B" wouldn't be established until the race was over and all times had been submited.
So with that in mind, all you would really find is that those fast D2 and D3 racers would finally be able to honestly compete with D1'ers and not be considered slower overall because of a silly label.
Honestly, the only problem I see with this sort of system is that the mod of the WRS will always need excel.
Anyway, regarding the subject at hand...
I think flat-out hit the nail on the head when he suggested a combination of the 2 systems we are looking at.
Use the calculations and the Std.
Then round the number to the closest "second-mark" going up if the std. goes over .500 and rounding down if the number is below .500.
That would allow us to not use the odd marks for seperating times but at the same time it would allow us to be fair about setting up who ends up with what.
Also, I suggest only removing the Slow times that go beyond 2std away from the mean.
The reason I say that is because, we should want an honest view of what gold is... If we remove the fastest time because it is so far ahead then it will only leave us with false golds.
However, we do need to remove any sort of "way-slow" times because that is one of the few exploitable features to this system (that being to turn in a super slow time just so the system is held back and gold or silver will be more easily achieved).
I just want to mention that I think the biggest voices in this discussion should come from 2 types of people.
1) Mid pack finishers from each division.
They are the ones who have been neglected in our "winnings" and it would be nice to see what they think of the system.
2) D2 and D3 racers.
D1 has always been racing against itself mostly so we need to see how D2 and D3 feel about this since they are the groups with the most to gain (or lose I guess).
Also, on one final note that I know people don't like to hear, but it must be said...
Remember, the podiums in D2 and D3 are artificial.
We are all actually racing each other.
There is not some super-human advantage D1 racers have that allows them to naturally and more easily race faster... The only difference between D1 and the other divisions is the fact that D1 usually finishes with a faster time (regardless of why, we are all still racing with the same type of human hands and brains).
We are all humans and that is the most basic level to judge each of us on.
Finally, I just want to mention a few odds and ends...
I didn't randomly select the division cutoffs.
Those times are at even "second-barriers" based on marks I decided after seeing all of the qualifers times that had been submitted before Week 1 began.
That is also another reminder that we are already working on a system of seperation by time and not some mystical skill level meter.
Regarding rivals...
This sort of system will give us the chance to be rivals with many people, often even more than before because we will no longer be seperated by the artificial division lines.
Hence, anyone looking for a gold time will now be rivals to one another. đź‘Ť
Also, hate to say it, but Jump ace, you are missing something.
See, the leaderboard wouldn't need colors since there wouldn't be any divisions.
Plus, it wouldn't need colors since the "G/S/B" wouldn't be established until the race was over and all times had been submited.
So with that in mind, all you would really find is that those fast D2 and D3 racers would finally be able to honestly compete with D1'ers and not be considered slower overall because of a silly label.
Honestly, the only problem I see with this sort of system is that the mod of the WRS will always need excel.
- 812
- Leicestershire
- davegeorge78
I have a suggestion, why not use the new Gold/Silver/Bronze system in conjunction with the existing Divisions 1/2/3??
Cyril could announce a new qualifier to run during early January which all existing WRS drivers would run as well as any newcomers as they arrive in the future. This would ensure that the Division system was bang upto date with regards to peoples abilities.
Then the weekly format could be the G/S/B so everyone is racing against each other and not just their respective Divisions..
The Division system would run in the background and quarterly (or two months or monthly?) the results could be reviewed and based on your amount of G/S/B you would move up/down a division accordingly.
This would keep in place the excellent (In my opinion) current format using the three divisions and also add in a more exciting weekly G/S/B format.
Just my take on the whole situation.
best regards to all
Dave
Cyril could announce a new qualifier to run during early January which all existing WRS drivers would run as well as any newcomers as they arrive in the future. This would ensure that the Division system was bang upto date with regards to peoples abilities.
Then the weekly format could be the G/S/B so everyone is racing against each other and not just their respective Divisions..
The Division system would run in the background and quarterly (or two months or monthly?) the results could be reviewed and based on your amount of G/S/B you would move up/down a division accordingly.
This would keep in place the excellent (In my opinion) current format using the three divisions and also add in a more exciting weekly G/S/B format.
Just my take on the whole situation.
best regards to all
Dave
- 9,743
- Portland, OR
- Jump_Ace
- JUMPxACE
You know your right Kent, something in the back of my mind kept telling me I was missing something....LOL. So we could just have everyone be listed in all blue or black etc. right? Since we won't know how we will rank until the weeks end right? How embarassing, sorry dude.
Jerome
Jerome
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
jump_ace
No, no no,
No need to be embarassed or anything of that sort.
You didn't do anything wrong or silly. đź‘Ť
I just wanted do what someone was saying earlier (forget who)... But they mentioned that many of the percieved problems in this system are only there because we are not fully thinking in the "gold system."
All is good my friend. đź‘Ť
Now I'm going to just wait and see what everyone has to say about this and that... So until the next time I actually post...
Later
Btw, one reason I am supporting the "Gold System" is because of how I've been racing in D1 since week 11 of the GT3 WRS.
Frankly, it's gotten old and I don't think I am really at the D1 standard on any track other than the Ring (since my SC3 break, I am probably not even on the D1 standard at the ring anymore).
Still though, I never got demoted and I probably never will or would be.
So, it is more fitting (IMO) that I get rated in terms of my week to week performance and not labeled based on a 2 year old division status.
Also, I must admit...
I am seriously biased in this discussion.
Not only did I propose nearly the same idea over a year ago, but I am also the guy who stayed out of the WRS because I did not want to take part in long-term stats battles.
I still feel to this day that the WRS is a place for the casual racer and the "pro" racer to race each week and for that matter, from week to week without a "history" of racing to hold them up or keep them down.
Each week is a new week and new chance to start again, I like to race with that in mind.
Tedehur
Staff Emeritus
- 4,322
- France
- Z spec
Thanks Kent for actively promoting this (I knew you would : I borrowed your idea after all).
And too true concerning the leaderboard : I hadn't realized either that the question was pointless because we obviously can't know what the results will be while the race is not over.
Excel is no big problem, and I might even make some PHP code to handle all this online.
@ Dave : the hybrid system (G/S/B/ in addition to the existing divisions) is what ballstothewall proposed. I'd like to do something like this, but the more I think about it the less I find it appropriate, see my post here.
And too true concerning the leaderboard : I hadn't realized either that the question was pointless because we obviously can't know what the results will be while the race is not over.
Excel is no big problem, and I might even make some PHP code to handle all this online.
@ Dave : the hybrid system (G/S/B/ in addition to the existing divisions) is what ballstothewall proposed. I'd like to do something like this, but the more I think about it the less I find it appropriate, see my post here.
- 812
- Leicestershire
- davegeorge78
flat-out
Cheers for the reply Cyril, I still think having something that shows where people are overall (Like a division system) is good, the G/S/B system changing each week will not show where people are in the overall scheme of things, just for that week as i understand it...?
regards
Dave
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
And that is exactly why I like the new idea. đź‘Ť
I don't need to be reminded that I'm good because I am in D1.
Likewise, I doubt the D3'ers need to be reminded they are at the bottom of the results.
Maybe the G/S/B system would have some enthusiast who would put in the time to track the results and create a system for recording and ranking racers?
Of course, I wouldn't really want a part of it, but I am sure there are many here who would love to say "look at how I am one of the best."
In any case, I like the idea of not holding people up or holding people down by using a division system.
Almost like real life, I feel like it's just one more way for the "rich/fast" to keep the "poor/slow" down.
Nothing stresses that "caste system" more than saying "this is what you are and this is what I am."
It would be nice to have an era in the WRS where we all race as one group instead of racing as a 3 groups (slow, fast, and amazing).
Then again, I can see why the "amazing" racers wouldn't want to lose that status.
In any case, I've made my views clear for the most part.
Now it's up to everyone else to put in some input. đź‘Ť
I don't need to be reminded that I'm good because I am in D1.
Likewise, I doubt the D3'ers need to be reminded they are at the bottom of the results.
Maybe the G/S/B system would have some enthusiast who would put in the time to track the results and create a system for recording and ranking racers?
Of course, I wouldn't really want a part of it, but I am sure there are many here who would love to say "look at how I am one of the best."
In any case, I like the idea of not holding people up or holding people down by using a division system.
Almost like real life, I feel like it's just one more way for the "rich/fast" to keep the "poor/slow" down.
Nothing stresses that "caste system" more than saying "this is what you are and this is what I am."
It would be nice to have an era in the WRS where we all race as one group instead of racing as a 3 groups (slow, fast, and amazing).
Then again, I can see why the "amazing" racers wouldn't want to lose that status.
In any case, I've made my views clear for the most part.
Now it's up to everyone else to put in some input. đź‘Ť
- 812
- Leicestershire
- davegeorge78
KentI don't need to be reminded that I'm good because I am in D1.
Likewise, I doubt the D3'ers need to be reminded they are at the bottom of the results.
In any case, I like the idea of not holding people up or holding people down by using a division system.
Almost like real life, I feel like it's just one more way for the "rich/fast" to keep the "poor/slow" down.
Nothing stresses that "caste system" more than saying "this is what you are and this is what I am."
It would be nice to have an era in the WRS where we all race as one group instead of racing as a 3 groups (slow, fast, and amazing).
Then again, I can see why the "amazing" racers wouldn't want to lose that status.
In any case, I've made my views clear for the most part.
Now it's up to everyone else to put in some input. đź‘Ť
Wise words there Kent, In some ways i agree with you about not "labelling" people, would be nice if the world took a different view sometimes....
Thing is (as you know) divisions and ranking systems are used in almost all sporting events across the globe because they work and give people a structure to work and aspire too. The quick guys will still be quick and get the golds in the new system just as the big names in F1 for example will generally be at the top of the results tables each week....to me there is a certain element of "Knowing my current place" and then trying to better myself which i like about having a division to be part of.
I worked hard to get into Div 2 of the WRS after starting in D3 and was thrilled when i was promoted, as has already been mentioned others have put in tremendous effort to get themselves results also.
I hope that if the new system gets put in place
there is still the incentive to race as for some losing the Divisions may give them less of a goal to work towards.... 
I will watch with interest to see what happens though and what the overall opinion seems to be. đź‘Ť
regards
Dave
Tedehur
Staff Emeritus
- 4,322
- France
- Z spec
Week 31 is another good example of the immediate reward provided by the G/S/B system :
Here are the results that have been posted :
Division 1 :
Division 2 :
Division 3 :
And here are the G/S/B results :
(under 1'15.000, 1'14.952 before rounding)
(above 1'16.700, 1'16.688 before rounding)
Electric....... had just qualified in div 3, and it took him 3 weeks to be promoted to div 2 because he was obviously too fast. With the G/S/B system, he would have been immediately rewarded for his performance, and would have got a Silver podium.
On the other hand, TheWizard who didn't have much time to practise was dead last in div 1. With the G/S/B system, this poor performance would have deserved a Bronze podium.
In this aspect I find the new system as an extension of the divisions system.
We will still be racing every week against the same fellow racers, fighting for the same positions, except the div 1 will be named Gold, div 2, Silver and div 3 Bronze.
But in addition to that, great or poor performances will immediately be rewarded or sanctioned without having to wait for a promotion (takes a few months) or demotion (never happens).
It looks to me like the existing divisions system with an additional flexibility that will allow div 3 racers to stand once or twice in div 1, or on the contrary, div 1 racers to drop down once or twice in div 3.
Here are the results that have been posted :
Division 1 :
- 1'13.625 - holl01 *
- 1'13.910 - Z. *
- 1'14.176 - hOt604bOi
- 1'14.386 - T13R
- 1'14.391 - FASJ6418
- 1'14.573 - MinorShunt
- 1'15.058 - jmgyro
- 1'15.407 - jase86
- 1'15.952 - SHigSpeed
- 1'16.840 - TheWizard
Division 2 :
- 1'14.339 - jump_ace *
- 1'14.633 - shockwaveracing
- 1'14.932 - KLR142
- 1'15.774 - NielsG *
- 1'15.803 - MisterWeary *
- 1'15.827 - sausages
- 1'16.633 - jctraduz
- 1'16.690 - Drew22
- 1'16.814 - banjobear
- 1'18.244 - NickBRed5
- 1'18.921 - flat-out
Division 3 :
- 1'15.512 - Electric....... *
- 1'15.986 - rotbarsch1979
- 1'16.361 - bleurabbit7
- 1'18.004 - bigrew
- 1'18.281 - SimRaceDriver
- 1'18.829 - Jetboys427
- 1'19.377 - GTrackd02
- 1'19.561 - STINGER05
- 1'20.335 - smilely_leo
And here are the G/S/B results :
(under 1'15.000, 1'14.952 before rounding)
- 1'13.625 - holl01
- 1'13.910 - Z.
- 1'14.176 - hOt604bOi
- 1'14.339 - jump_ace
- 1'14.386 - T13R
- 1'14.391 - FASJ6418
- 1'14.573 - MinorShunt
- 1'14.633 - shockwaveracing
- 1'14.932 - KLR142
- 1'15.058 - jmgyro
- 1'15.407 - jase86
- 1'15.512 - Electric.......
- 1'15.774 - NielsG
- 1'15.803 - MisterWeary
- 1'15.827 - sausages
- 1'15.952 - SHigSpeed
- 1'15.986 - rotbarsch1979
- 1'16.361 - bleurabbit7
- 1'16.633 - jctraduz
- 1'16.690 - Drew22
(above 1'16.700, 1'16.688 before rounding)
- 1'16.814 - banjobear
- 1'16.840 - TheWizard
- 1'18.004 - bigrew
- 1'18.244 - NickBRed5
- 1'18.281 - SimRaceDriver
- 1'18.829 - Jetboys427
- 1'18.921 - flat-out
- 1'19.377 - GTrackd02
- 1'19.561 - STINGER05
- 1'20.335 - smilely_leo
Electric....... had just qualified in div 3, and it took him 3 weeks to be promoted to div 2 because he was obviously too fast. With the G/S/B system, he would have been immediately rewarded for his performance, and would have got a Silver podium.
On the other hand, TheWizard who didn't have much time to practise was dead last in div 1. With the G/S/B system, this poor performance would have deserved a Bronze podium.
In this aspect I find the new system as an extension of the divisions system.
We will still be racing every week against the same fellow racers, fighting for the same positions, except the div 1 will be named Gold, div 2, Silver and div 3 Bronze.
But in addition to that, great or poor performances will immediately be rewarded or sanctioned without having to wait for a promotion (takes a few months) or demotion (never happens).
It looks to me like the existing divisions system with an additional flexibility that will allow div 3 racers to stand once or twice in div 1, or on the contrary, div 1 racers to drop down once or twice in div 3.
- 3,105
- GTP_MisterWeary
Can I suggest that in your results thread this week Cyril you put the results in as normal but add a section on what it would look like wuth the new system as well.
- 3,105
- GTP_MisterWeary
flat-outThat was in my plans. I added them to week 36 results too
Ahhh yes...you are indeed a very organised and thorough man
- 3,315
- The Netherlands
- GTP_Sjaak
Kent stated that D2 and D3 wins are artificial.
So that means "nothing worth".
I disagree with it because I feel it is certainly a win.
When I had my first and only win I kept smiling for a whole week and was proud as hell I finally got it.
A div. win is a win.With first place silver you always lose.
In one of Cyril's examples (first post I believe) I have a gold time but ended last.
While I had a div.2 podium which gives me a more rewarding feeling.
If we are using g/s/b system I fear that we are gonna race against times instead of people which is one of the strong elements of the WRS.
Another point is the "caste"system.
It will always remain.(Some will always get gold and some will be never able to reach that)
And bragging in your signature about how many golds you have will only emphasize that.
One of my weak points of not changing the WRS is that it works fine now and I like it as is now.
Why invent a new wheel?
And what for wheel,a list of times,tidy underneath each other, just like in all the races I see on the internet.
Quote Cyril:
"Electric....... had just qualified in div 3, and it took him 3 weeks to be promoted to div 2 because he was obviously too fast. With the G/S/B system, he would have been immediately rewarded for his performance, and would have got a Silver podium."
It is obvious that Electric has send in a to low qualifier time and therefore placed in the wrong Div.
For my run with the BMW I ran a week for I send it in.
It seems Cyril found one of the weak points of the present WRS here.
But still not strong enough to change everything for it.
Exceptions shall always occur.
One thing I wanna mention is the poll.
What if Cyril only had asked for two answers? yes or no.
So far my contribution about the change plans.
Merry Christmas.
So that means "nothing worth".
I disagree with it because I feel it is certainly a win.
When I had my first and only win I kept smiling for a whole week and was proud as hell I finally got it.
A div. win is a win.With first place silver you always lose.
In one of Cyril's examples (first post I believe) I have a gold time but ended last.
While I had a div.2 podium which gives me a more rewarding feeling.
If we are using g/s/b system I fear that we are gonna race against times instead of people which is one of the strong elements of the WRS.
Another point is the "caste"system.
It will always remain.(Some will always get gold and some will be never able to reach that)
And bragging in your signature about how many golds you have will only emphasize that.
One of my weak points of not changing the WRS is that it works fine now and I like it as is now.
Why invent a new wheel?
And what for wheel,a list of times,tidy underneath each other, just like in all the races I see on the internet.
Quote Cyril:
"Electric....... had just qualified in div 3, and it took him 3 weeks to be promoted to div 2 because he was obviously too fast. With the G/S/B system, he would have been immediately rewarded for his performance, and would have got a Silver podium."
It is obvious that Electric has send in a to low qualifier time and therefore placed in the wrong Div.
For my run with the BMW I ran a week for I send it in.
It seems Cyril found one of the weak points of the present WRS here.
But still not strong enough to change everything for it.
Exceptions shall always occur.
One thing I wanna mention is the poll.
What if Cyril only had asked for two answers? yes or no.
So far my contribution about the change plans.
Merry Christmas.
- 4,853
- Buffalo, NY
- PURE_DrWatson
hmm.... when running a poll like this, wouldn't it be wiser to run the discussion for a week or so, and when the debate cools down, open a vote?
seems like by the end of business these polls always produce false results; or at the very least, the debate is kind of moot, considering it has very little impact on the results of the poll. Unless the poll is run after all of the ideas have been laid out on the table.
seems like by the end of business these polls always produce false results; or at the very least, the debate is kind of moot, considering it has very little impact on the results of the poll. Unless the poll is run after all of the ideas have been laid out on the table.
Tedehur
Staff Emeritus
- 4,322
- France
- Z spec
Dr_Watson
Indeed.
But I didn't say that the poll would be used to take a decision. Despite the poll question, it's more a way to give an indication to people who haven't read the thread yet. For instance 10 people voted for keeping the current divisions system but Sjaak is the first one who opens the debate and posts points in favor of the division system.
I'm still busy looking for flaws in the calculation (and avoid unbalanced categories), I'm still busy too thinking at Neil's and others' suggestion to mix both systems.
And I won't decide anything this year. I might even post a second poll when my thinking is over.
Meanwhile, the debate is open.
