Israel, who really owns it?

  • Thread starter Delirious
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Delirious

Delirious

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Metroider17
I have been interested in the events and past history of the nation we call Israel.

There is so much conflict over there, what are each side fighting for, and how do they justify their means?

And who really owns the land and how do they reason that?

I really want your thoughts and bring facts to my mind so we all can learn more about this "popular" nation.
 
I recommend reading up on the history of Israel(the state) yourself. Israel was established in the 40's after the WWII(I don't remember the exact year), and I believe it's been a non-stop mess since.

My stance on Israel: Palestinians and Jews both has pretty valid claim to the territory. They should learn to live with each other. It is easily said than done, I know, but only other choice is to fight until one side is finished.
 
You could start by reading about the '6 day war' and go from there, although the problems have existed for centuries.
 
Actually, the Philistines own Israel, but since the Jews killed them all off centuries ago, I doubt they'll ever come back to claim it.

Nobody really owns the land anymore. Claims dating back centuries can be hard to validate. Even second and third generation claims are difficult to quantify in the face of current events. The Philistines owned it, then the Jews, then the Arabs, then the Crusaders, then the Arabs, then the Jews... this is one of those situations where logic and legal rights take a backseat to politics and power struggle.
 
A useful place to read up on some of the basics is the BBC News website (here).

For me, Israel is a prime example of what happens when two different religions both think that they have a God-given right to a piece of land, when infact neither of them actually do...
 
Nobody has a Divine right to anything. If a God gave us anything they are privileges, like the privilege of life, but they aren't rights. They need to stop using God as a crutch and start thinking about the situation logically.
 
My opinion: It is a tough call to make, and being an American, well, youre almost obligated to support the Israelis (UK too, since it is YOUR FAULT for creating Israel [lol])...

I say they just give the Palestinians their own state inside of Israel, and call it good. Obviously I have no grasp of the complexity of the situation like the people who live there, but I would prefer a more hands-off approach in this situation for Americans.

If you look into the history of the conflict, it is often the Palestinians and their Arab neighbors who cause problems with Israel, and often the consequences of the actions lead to Israel gaining more power within the region.
 
Seriously America needs to drop their connections with Israel. They are a big cause to our problem and one of the big reason why the middle east hates up and feels the need to blow up our buildings. Before anyone says it I don't hate Jews, but I do feel that their homeland is causing us major problems. I would bet any money if the US pulled out of Israel we would cease having a major problems with terrorist groups.
 
We would then perhaps have no problems with terrorism...but who's to say they still would want to do another attack?

The Jews last time I heard were not much into doing terrorism to the United States...so who's left?
 
...The US's problems stem from several things in Israel:

1) It was the UK and the US that helped create the state of Israel after World War II
2) It is the US and UK who continue to support Israel
3) It is the US and UK who continue to supply the Israeli millitary, who use our weapons to kill "innocent" (sometimes) Palestinians, thus making us (the US and UK) the bad-guys in the Middle East
 
It's a problem with too many sides and hidden interests to count.

How many times have they tried to re-settle the Palestinians, only to have some outside instigator egg the Palestinians into clamoring to reclaim their land.

How many times has the Israeli military shown its contempt for human life by using excessive force to take out "enemies of the state"? Claiming "collateral damage" as unintended doesn't really work if you're supposed to be trying to make peace with the people you're killing.

And how many children and young men are used as pawns by radical Islamic elements? Selected solely because their death at the hands of Israeli military forces will gain them the support of Muslims everywhere?

Not to mention the billions of dollars in weapons and support raised by the US and the UK to support the Israeli military... and the billions spent by Arab nations to raise armies and air forces to match Israel's technological superiority.

And the money not spent by Arab neighbors to re-settle the Palestinians...

To the average Israeli, who spends a huge chunk of his or her life in the army... no draft here... you just go after High School, whether you like it or not... that's why Israelis enter college at 24... this all sucks. They want peace as much as anyone.

To the average Palestinian, this really sucks. They jsut want to settle down and live somewhere.

To everyone else, Israel is the center of the Universe, and a symbol of the ideological, political and economic struggle between the East and the West.
 
YSSMAN
...The US's problems stem from several things in Israel:

1) It was the UK and the US that helped create the state of Israel after World War II
2) It is the US and UK who continue to support Israel
3) It is the US and UK who continue to supply the Israeli millitary, who use our weapons to kill "innocent" (sometimes) Palestinians, thus making us (the US and UK) the bad-guys in the Middle East
Click to expand...

IMHO You really need to do some fact checking and not rely so much on the mis-information you've been spoon fed. Though I will grant that continued support from the US does reduce the Israeli governments desire for a true resolution of the issues.
 
YSSMAN
3) It is the US and UK who continue to supply the Israeli millitary, who use our weapons to kill "innocent" (sometimes) Palestinians, thus making us (the US and UK) the bad-guys in the Middle East
Click to expand...
That's a very bland statement considering it is not just 'military' hardware that makes israel a good customer, think of the business implications of Rachael Corrie's case (Info; Here, here, here, here & here)

Business is just bull - dozing :ouch:

& let not the name of James Miller pass into your inquiries.

amen:mischievous:
 
sirlosealot
IMHO You really need to do some fact checking and not rely so much on the mis-information you've been spoon fed. Though I will grant that continued support from the US does reduce the Israeli governments desire for a true resolution of the issues.
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So why not respond with facts instead of claiming his views are wrong. Prove him wrong.
 
Here's all you need to know about Israel:

The Palestinian claim to Israel is similar to the Native American claim to America. They were there first, but that was long time ago. Wars were faught, they (among others) lost, the territory changed hands, and now they get to cope.

If the native americans suddenly demanded America back we'd laugh at them. If they started suicide bombing us to get it back, we'd lock up or kill the ones trying to do so.

The Palestinians should be treated similarly.
 
danoff
Here's all you need to know about Israel:

The Palestinian claim to Israel is similar to the Native American claim to America. They were there first, but that was long time ago. Wars were faught, they (among others) lost, the territory changed hands, and now they get to cope.

If the native americans suddenly demanded America back we'd laugh at them. If they started suicide bombing us to get it back, we'd lock up or kill the ones trying to do so.

The Palestinians should be treated similarly.
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Good point.

What I think is ironic about the entire situation is that both religions/races claim Abraham as their "father" that makes them all cousins. Issac -> Jews, Ishmael -> Muslims. So they are literally killing there own family. Kinda sad actually.
 
speedy_samurai
So why not respond with facts instead of claiming his views are wrong. Prove him wrong.
Click to expand...

Well, a full treatment would require more time than I have to type. I'd recommend taking a quick trip to Borders or Barnes and Noble.

I'll post some Wikipedia links (don't start criticising the reliability of WikiPedia, it's a relatively stable on-line resource and a very good starting point):

To refute the first point, that the US and UK (alone) helped create Israel, you should read up on the 1947 UN partition plan. In fact if you read about the British Mandate to Govern Palestine during that period you'll find that the British were attempting to stop Jews from entering Palestine.

The US does provide significant financial support to Israel, both public and private. AFAIK the UK provides no public aid to Israel.

Same thing for military equipment. Though to be fair items 2 & 3 are really the same thing since most of the aid the US provides is funding for military equipment purchases. Again the UK provides no significant military equipment to Israel. The centurion tanks sold during the '60s are long gone.
 
danoff
Here's all you need to know about Israel:

The Palestinian claim to Israel is similar to the Native American claim to America. They were there first, but that was long time ago. Wars were faught, they (among others) lost, the territory changed hands, and now they get to cope.

If the native americans suddenly demanded America back we'd laugh at them. If they started suicide bombing us to get it back, we'd lock up or kill the ones trying to do so.

The Palestinians should be treated similarly.
Click to expand...
If it was just about the Palestinians and the Jews, it would be that simple. I see it like this: If the U.S. was Israel and Palestinians were Native Americans, then Canada, Mexico, etc. are countries with militaries that is almost comparable to what U.S. has, and will invade at the first chance they get. Unfortunately, most of Middle East thinks the situation is injustice and needs to be corrected. Only thing that is keeping Israel safe is the U.S. Without the U.S. aid, I think Israel would have went down long time ago. I don't think this can be over until there is some kind of closure that both sides can concede to........... actually, as long as there is a U.S. tie to the country, there will always be some that would wish Israel just dissapear.
 
a6m5
If it was just about the Palestinians and the Jews, it would be that simple. I see it like this: If the U.S. was Israel and Palestinians were Native Americans, then Canada, Mexico, etc. are countries with militaries that is almost comparable to what U.S. has, and will invade at the first chance they get. Unfortunately, most of Middle East thinks the situation is injustice and needs to be corrected. Only thing that is keeping Israel safe is the U.S. Without the U.S. aid, I think Israel would have went down long time ago. I don't think this can be over until there is some kind of closure that both sides can concede to........... actually, as long as there is a U.S. tie to the country, there will always be some that would wish Israel just dissapear.
Click to expand...

Israel is pretty tough. If I remember correctly, everybody and their mom tried a while back to Israel out and those guys busted ass.
 
Israel can "bust ass". That's one country that isn't afraid to use their military and can do so quite effectively when needed. I said awhile ago in a different section, just leave Iran to Israel--let them figure it out for us. I'd bet Israel could compete, if not dominate.
Israel's only problem I can see is resources. I don't really know where they get their materials from, but I know they get most of their military equipment from the U.S. Palestinians get their weapons off the ground, or out of the 'Stans' dumpsters. I have no clue where Israel gets food from, because they don't have much room for agriculture or grazing animals. The environment is mostly desert. Same goes for Palestine. I don't get why the two don't just split the area in half, or in sections according to their populations. Maybe 60% to the Israelis, because they have more people, and 40% to Palestine.
Or we could just out both countries, along with that great city, Palestine, which has been the source of so many frivolous religious skirmishes throughout history. Of course that would piss off many a person, so maby it's not a good idea.
 
danoff
Israel is pretty tough. If I remember correctly, everybody and their mom tried a while back to Israel out and those guys busted ass.
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:lol: They are tough. I agree and do respect them for that. But like I said, without the U.S. aid, probably in the form of free weapons, I wonder how successful they'd been.
 
a6m5
:lol: They are tough. I agree and do respect them for that. But like I said, without the U.S. aid, probably in the form of free weapons, I wonder how successful they'd been.
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actually, i must agree on this. The U.S deliverd the weapons to Isreal. But this war is really getting out of hand. I always hear Isrealen soldiers this and Palestian terrorist, but the people are suffering bad, but i guess thats not important:indiff:
 
keef
Hey, they definitely weren't free. America isn't that rich.
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I can't tell if you are joking or not. It's probably not as clear cut as shipment of "free F-4s" to Israel, but the U.S. aid to them has been so large, I couldn't even begin to speculate how many billions of your tax dollars has gone to Israel.
 
danoff
Here's all you need to know about Israel:

The Palestinian claim to Israel is similar to the Native American claim to America. They were there first, but that was long time ago. Wars were faught, they (among others) lost, the territory changed hands, and now they get to cope.

If the native americans suddenly demanded America back we'd laugh at them. If they started suicide bombing us to get it back, we'd lock up or kill the ones trying to do so.

The Palestinians should be treated similarly.
Click to expand...

Errh... how long ago where the Indians bought out?

Now, how long ago where the Palestinians booted out?

That's like comparing the Napoleonic Wars to World War II. Nearly the same thing, but no one can quite bring themselves to hating the French outright at this point in time for what happened back then... Nazi is still a swear word nowadays, while Napoleon is just a midget-joke.

Oh wait, America hates the French... with a passion. :lol: Go Freedom Fries!

Ergo... it wasn't that long ago... but the situation is still unconscionable, and yes, terrorists deserve the treatment they get.

But like I said... claiming collateral damage for non-terrorists killed just doesn't cut it when you're trying to make peace. The recent win of the Hamas and the possible shift back to the ultra-hawks in the Israeli government isn't going to help the situation any.

Oh... by the way... the Jews were there first, not the Palestinians... but that was centuries ago. :)

Swift
Good point.

What I think is ironic about the entire situation is that both religions/races claim Abraham as their "father" that makes them all cousins. Issac -> Jews, Ishmael -> Muslims. So they are literally killing there own family. Kinda sad actually.
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Terribly. :(

keef
I have no clue where Israel gets food from, because they don't have much room for agriculture or grazing animals. The environment is mostly desert.
Click to expand...

Israel has a terrific agricultural system. Of course, they've accomplished this by diverting a lot of water from the River Jordan, which causes quite a bit of friction with Muslims downstream.

Of course, before they did this, the water resources weren't being fully utilized...
 
Delirious XVII
So do you think we should stop helping Israel? If so, why? If not, why not?
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I think the U.S. support for Israel's been a bit of overkill, but most of us don't know, why so much. My guesstimate would be oil, but that's off the top of my head, I just don't know. United States will never stop supporting Israel. I wouldn't mind them turning down the support a notch, but without understanding the hidden agendas, it's hard to say.
 
I don't think America can just decide one day to back out of Israel, but I think we could do ourselves a small favor by handeling the situation from afar (just like we are now). But, if America and Europe backed off too far, there could be more trouble than what we would care to have in the Middle East.
 
a6m5
I think the U.S. support for Israel's been a bit of overkill, but most of us don't know, why so much.
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"if we choose to combat radical Arab nationalism and to hold the Persian Gulf oil by force if necessary, a logical corollary would be to support Israel as the only strong pro-West power left in the Near East."

-memorandum for National Security Council; Robert Olson, Middle East Policy 9


We also should keep in mind that the U.S. has also supported Israel many times by using its veto power in the UN where security council resolutions were broached with the aim to curb Israeli military violence.
 
niky
Errh... how long ago where the Indians bought out?

Now, how long ago where the Palestinians booted out?
Click to expand...

Long enough.

That's like comparing the Napoleonic Wars to World War II. Nearly the same thing, but no one can quite bring themselves to hating the French outright at this point in time for what happened back then... Nazi is still a swear word nowadays, while Napoleon is just a midget-joke.
Click to expand...

There's a slight difference in degree of genocide.

Oh... by the way... the Jews were there first, not the Palestinians... but that was centuries ago. :)
Click to expand...

...and before that?
 

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