Israel and Lebanon

  • Thread starter Sage
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I vote to let them figure out their own damn problems, as it isn't Americas only problem at the moment. Given that many Europeans ctiticize America for not having a strong enough forign policy when it comes to the Middle-East peace process, where are nations like Germany and France when it comes to promoting peace in Israel?

This all reminds me of the "Cripple Fight" from South Park. I suggest we take the same action, and just step back and watch the mess unfold. Then, when it really looks bad, we step in to end it.

I look at it this way as well, if we step in and back up Israel we are going to be viewed as an even greater enemy of Islam in the Middle-East. If we keep our noses out of it, we are going to be criticized by our allies and by our enemies for not ending violence in the Middle-East. It's a catch-22, and we are in the middle of it once again. GREAT!
 
As a guy born in Japan and growing up there and the U.S., I just can't understand the mindset of these people. These Middle Eastern terrorists and militants pretty much will not stop until the Jews and American influence are gone from the region.

I just have to laugh at the Israeli firing rockets at the Beirut International Airport. It's well deserved after what Lebanese did or allowed, but you just got to admire the Israeli military's willingness to put a smackdown on anyone who messes with them. If politics operated this way in Far East Asia, WWIII would have taken place decades ago!
 
Although I appreciate that Israel need to take a stand against Islamic militants and terrorist organisations such as Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah in Lebanon, I fail to see how bombing the airport is going to help the situation at all. Presumably, the Israeli strategy of collective punishment and disruption of civilian life in Lebanon is intended to put pressure on the (rest of) government to take action against Hezbollah - but is it realistic to think that the Lebanese government have that level of influence over a terrorist/guerilla outfit such as Hezbollah?? Bombing roads, bridges and especially the runway of Beirut International Airport will achieve very little against Hezbollah themselves, and serve mainly to antagonise, inflame and punish the ordinary folk of the Lebanon (and in the wider regions)... as they are currently employing the same heavy-handed tactics in the wasteland that is the Gaza strip, it is a very dangerous strategy indeed to raise the stakes elsewhere.
 
Touring Mars
Although I appreciate that Israel need to take a stand against Islamic militants and terrorist organisations such as Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah in Lebanon, I fail to see how bombing the airport is going to help the situation at all. Presumably, the Israeli strategy of collective punishment and disruption of civilian life in Lebanon is intended to put pressure on the (rest of) government to take action against Hezbollah - but is it realistic to think that the Lebanese government have that level of influence over a terrorist/guerilla outfit such as Hezbollah?? Bombing roads, bridges and especially the runway of Beirut International Airport will achieve very little against Hezbollah themselves, and serve mainly to antagonise, inflame and punish the ordinary folk of the Lebanon (and in the wider regions)... as they are currently employing the same heavy-handed tactics in the wasteland that is the Gaza strip, it is a very dangerous strategy indeed to raise the stakes elsewhere.
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According to reports I heard oin the radio this morning Israel has also blockaded shipping lanes into Lebanon. Their reasoning behind shutting down all traffiuc in and out of Lebanon is to cut off supplies to Hezbollah that they use against Israel.

While this is a great wartime strategy, against a country, this is a heck of a way to handle an organization. It's kind of like cutting off the arm to get rid of the mole. Sure the arm feeds the mole through its blood vessels, but the arm isn't the problem.

Of course, Lebanon does support Hezbollah and Israel could just be trying to force Lebanon's hand against Hezbollah.

I guess Israel states it plainly here (From this story):
"The government wants to change the rules of the game in Lebanon and make the Lebanese government understand that it is responsible for what happens in Lebanon," Israeli Agriculture Minister Shalom Simchon told Israel Radio.

If this is true then Israel is not being heartless about this, they are giving warnings:
Senior Israeli military officials said Israel warned the Lebanese government that it plans to strike offices and homes of Hezbollah leaders in the southern suburbs of Beirut.

This statement is cracking me up:
Trying to avoid devastating Israeli bombardment of the nation's infrastructure, the Lebanese government insisted Wednesday it had no prior knowledge of the Hezbollah operation, did not condone it and bore no responsibility for it. The Cabinet, which includes two Hezbollah ministers, urged the U.N. Security Council to intervene.

"Hezbo-who? No, doesn't sound familiar." I am sure that the play dumb approach isn't going to work after all this time. Especially after this long-standing policy:
Lebanon has long refused to deploy more than a limited number of security forces in the border region, saying it is not in business of protecting Israel's northern border.


While I do think that Israel has gone overbord for a couple of kidnapped soldiers, Lebanon is not helping themselves any. Claiming to not be familiar with Hezbollah, when they have theior own TV station and two members on the cabinet, is just ridiculous.

I think the worst case scenario is that Israel may get everyone else all fired up and suddenly be dealing with more fronts and more enemies at once than they would care to.
 
Touring Mars
Although I appreciate that Israel need to take a stand against Islamic militants and terrorist organisations such as Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah in Lebanon, I fail to see how bombing the airport is going to help the situation at all. Presumably, the Israeli strategy of collective punishment and disruption of civilian life in Lebanon is intended to put pressure on the (rest of) government to take action against Hezbollah - but is it realistic to think that the Lebanese government have that level of influence over a terrorist/guerilla outfit such as Hezbollah?? Bombing roads, bridges and especially the runway of Beirut International Airport will achieve very little against Hezbollah themselves, and serve mainly to antagonise, inflame and punish the ordinary folk of the Lebanon (and in the wider regions)... as they are currently employing the same heavy-handed tactics in the wasteland that is the Gaza strip, it is a very dangerous strategy indeed to raise the stakes elsewhere.
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I think the way Israel look at it; even if the Lebanese doesn't have control over the Hezbollah, it's their responsibility since the attack is coming from Lebanon. As for the Israel's retaliation, they tend to take that "you hit me, I hit you back harder" approach almost every time.
 
israel is just doing this out of spite, and has nothing to do with terrorists. They were just looking for an excuse, and of course the UN will once again just stand by and watch, because jews make up some of the most powerful men in the word.
 
Poverty
israel is just doing this out of spite, and has nothing to do with terrorists. They were just looking for an excuse, and of course the UN will once again just stand by and watch, because jews make up some of the most powerful men in the word.
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It's true that Jews have powerful lobby internaionally, but I think U.S. is the main reason U.N. never touches Israel(yes, I realize that they have powerful voice in the U.S. as well). And U.S. and U.N. occasionally warns Israel for harsh actions, they'd never do anything to stop them. And in Israel's defense, they live in the smack middle of terrorists/militants capitol of the world. It'd be almost impossible to take a politically correct approach and survive in that region IMO.
 
Well here is the big problem..IRAN controlls Hezbolla. Iran also supports through Syria..Hamas..the leader of Hammas lives in and is based in Damascus. Now none of these attacks can take place if iran and Syria do not support the terrorist. Syria assinated the leadership of lebenon after their briefe fling at democracy..following Iraqs example..but Lebenon cannot controll its own territory..so when hezzbolla attacks Israel ..and kidnapping soldiers from accross the border is an ACT OF WAR..Israel must go into Lebenon . Its as simple and complicated as that . This is the state sponsored terrorism the US is fighting against . Now let Iran gain the ability to make a nuke ...they dont need missiles ..they have Hezzbolla .
Israel should bomb the house that the leader of hamas ( military wing ) lives in in Syria...as soon as they find it . Or just let Assad know to controll his dog or Israel will hold him and Syria responsable . The puppet strings are being pulled from other countries. the peace proccess was KILLED by the people of Palestine when they elected Hamas . look at all that was accomplished...you are now in danger of having NO Palestinian autonomy and they will have lost all they gained by negotiation..Israel back in Gaza and the west bank.

Just one more example of palestinians commiting suicide. And of palestine being a puppet for the other Arab States and Iran who do not wish for peace
only a war to keep their people focused on other problems besides being ruled by despots and being poor and starving while their leaders grow fat and rich .

I can no longer dredge any sympathy for Palestine from my heart..its like trying to help a drug addict recover , the Palestinians are addicted to self destruction and wont stay in rehab and they have enablers who will not ever let them recover.
 
Poverty
israel is just doing this out of spite, and has nothing to do with terrorists. They were just looking for an excuse, and of course the UN will once again just stand by and watch, because jews make up some of the most powerful men in the word.
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I find it odd that you chose to post on the opinions forum when you are either so uniformed that you have no base for an opinion ...or you are just deluded into thinking whatever you are told by others to think.


take a few momeents of your time to try to explain why a nation sends its people off to be killed " out of spite " would you send your son ? Do you even know what a " jew " is ? explain how after being attacked from Lebenon by hezzbolla , how this " has nothing to do with "terrorist " and what attacking lebenon out of " spite " Gains the Israelis..remember its not a video game .
Put some thought into it and try to explain your post or go away .
 
ledhed
I find it odd that you chose to post on the opinions forum when you are either so uniformed that you have no base for an opinion ...or you are just deluded into thinking whatever you are told by others to think.


take a few momeents of your time to try to explain why a nation sends its people off to be killed " out of spite " would you send your son ? Do you even know what a " jew " is ? explain how after being attacked from Lebenon by hezzbolla , how this " has nothing to do with "terrorist " and what attacking lebenon out of " spite " Gains the Israelis..remember its not a video game .
Put some thought into it and try to explain your post or go away .
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I thought this was the israel invading gaza thread
 
My thought process leads me to belive that Isreal is going to get themselves into another war, and eventually ask their allies in Europe and America for help, and we are going to end up saying we're too busy at the moment with Iraq, Afghanistan and North Korea.

...This is a great way to have WWIII start. Iran invades Iraq while Syria and Lebanon invade Israel, all while Kim Jong Il nukes Tokyo and Pearl Harbor. Great, then we would be screwed.
 
YSSMAN
...This is a great way to have WWIII start. Iran invades Iraq
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With our entire military in Iraq? I don't think so.

while Syria and Lebanon invade Israel
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Israel could wipe the floor with them.

YSSMA
all while Kim Jong Il nukes Tokyo and Pearl Harbor.
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First the rockets have to work, then our countermeasures have to fail.
 
danoff
With our entire military in Iraq? I don't think so.



Israel could wipe the floor with them.



First the rockets have to work, then our countermeasures have to fail.
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Dannoff think again...we have maybe 15 percent of our military force in Iraq AND Afghanistan .

less than 150,000 troops are in Iraq.. we may move more when we go over to spank Iran..but our navy and air force is more than sufficient to wipe Syria off the map...if Israel doesnt do it first .

iiran is playing a very dangerouse game right now ...they sponsor hamas..Islamic Jihad..and hezbolla...do you think its a coincidence that Israel is attacked both in the North and south while the monkey in Iran claims its time for Israel to wiped off the map ?

I guess he is trying to show the world..what he thinks of them . By starting WW III .
 
ledhed
Dannoff think again...we have maybe 15 percent of our military force in Iraq AND Afghanistan .

less than 150,000 troops are in Iraq.. we may move more when we go over to spank Iran..but our navy and air force is more than sufficient to wipe Syria off the map...if Israel doesnt do it first .

iiran is playing a very dangerouse game right now ...they sponsor hamas..Islamic Jihad..and hezbolla...do you think its a coincidence that Israel is attacked both in the North and south while the monkey in Iran claims its time for Israel to wiped off the map ?

I guess he is trying to show the world..what he thinks of them . By starting WW III .
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I admit that I was exaggerating, but the vast majority of our troops are in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have ground forces and bases there. We can move our airforce into the region overnight. Perhaps our entire military is not in Iraq as I suggested, but we're entrenched, there is no way Iran would attack Iraq with us in the way.
 
danoff
I admit that I was exaggerating, but the vast majority of our troops are in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have ground forces and bases there. We can move our airforce into the region overnight. Perhaps our entire military is not in Iraq as I suggested, but we're entrenched, there is no way Iran would attack Iraq with us in the way.
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They do not have to ..all they need to do is stir the pot and cause trouble in the south.

keep us busy ..like they have been doing.

At the same time use their puppet terrorist they support to stir POOP up over around Israel...remember we are threatning sactions etc...over them getting NUKES ?

They can keep us really busy without they themselves expending one iranian soldier.

state sponsored terrorism ..they are proving it to be VERY effective .

Why do we let them ? ...by the time we all learn to speak against it ..and them with one voice it will be too late..

Just like the years before WW II .

we never learn ..in fact I cant wait to see who plays the part of Chamberlain in this fiasco ...who will be the first to appease ?
 
Well, my suggestion is that we first do not do anything. Let Israel deal with their own problems, as they aren't ours. Yes, President Bush and I are both upset that Israel is pushing on an allready feble Democracy in Lebanon, but I say let them lose againgst Syria.

I mentioned WWIII as this generally is the perfect storm for it to happen. Hell, maybe we can get crazy Hugo Chavez from Venezuela to start something as well, then we would have a war on a scale alike WWII.
 
Israel has the second most powerful air force in the world. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Air Force = owned
All they need is a semi-close idea of where they are, and blow that area straight to hell.
Give Israel free reign to kill these terrorists, as necessary.
Yes innocent people will die. arent they dying now? difference being, innocent Isralie's are dying now.
this is how life works. people suffer when their government/people do stupid things, like attacking other countries. A blood shoots a crip, A crip shoots a blood, likely, a different one first. this is the way it has always been.
Political war = 4X longer, 4X more innocent civilian deaths than a simple slaughter of the attacking armys, which may included thousands of civilians on the scene.
 
Bush is right about protecting lebenons Democracy . Israel needs to carefully choose its targets .
 
It's time for the UN Security Council to bring Israel up on a charge. Every nation has the right to defend its borders, but Israel's action has little to do with defending its borders, and a lot to do with collective punishment. Israel is in deirect violation of the 4th Geneva Convention.

Article 33 (of that treaty) states:

* No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

* Pillage is prohibited.

* Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions collective punishments are a war crime.

The UN needs to act!
 
magburner
It's time for the UN Security Council to bring Israel up on a charge. Every nation has the right to defend its borders, but Israel's action has little to do with defending its borders, and a lot to do with collective punishment.
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You're gonna have to make that case, not just assert it.
 
OK, repeated devastating attacks on the civillian infrastructure (roads, bridges, airports, power stations etc.), the land/sea/air blockade, attacks on 'suspected' Hezbollah targets, many civillian casualties, disproportionate use of force, invading a sovereign nation, total lack of respect for international law. do I need to go on?

You simply cannot hold innocent people responsible for the actions of terrorists. I could understand if the attacks were only aimed at Hezbollah targets, but they are obviously not. Defending borders is totally different to invading a country.
 
magburner
OK, repeated devastating attacks on the civillian infrastructure (roads, bridges, airports, power stations etc.), the land/sea/air blockade, attacks on 'suspected' Hezbollah targets, many civillian casualties, disproportionate use of force, invading a sovereign nation, total lack of respect for international law. do I need to go on?

You simply cannot hold innocent people responsible for the actions of terrorists. I could understand if the attacks were only aimed at Hezbollah targets, but they are obviously not. Defending borders is totally different to invading a country.
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You didn't establish that Israel is holding the people responsible for the actiosn of terrorists. And defending your boarders does not confine you within them.

Plus, kidnapping soldiers and launching rockets on a daily basis into civilian occupied Israel is an act of war. If the governments of those nations didn't want to go to war with Israel, they should do a better job of controlling their militants and be working with Israel.

The actions being taken against terrorists and states that harbor and permit terrorism are completely justified.
 
danoff
You didn't establish that Israel is holding the people responsible for the actiosn of terrorists. And defending your boarders does not confine you within them.
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I thought I mentioned the attacks on civillian infrastructure. That is collective punishment. Attacks on airports, roads, and power stations harm innocent civillians more than the terrorists. They reduce the capacity of the civillian population to go about their daily business.

danoff
Plus, kidnapping soldiers and launching rockets on a daily basis into civilian occupied Israel is an act of war. If the governments of those nations didn't want to go to war with Israel, they should do a better job of controlling their militants and be working with Israel.
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ok, I agree that a nation has the right to defend its borders even if that means it enters another nation to do so, but I fail to see how Beirut could possibly be in the line of fire, as it is some distance away from the border with Israel.

I was watching BBC News not so long ago, and there were Lebanese Christians that were speaking out AGAINST Hezbollah. Not everyone in Lebanon supports the terrorists, but they are being punished as if they were the same.

As for working with Israel, its clear that the Israeli's are not in the mood for any kind of co-operation.
 
magburner
I thought I mentioned the attacks on civillian infrastructure. That is collective punishment. Attacks on airports, roads, and power stations harm innocent civillians more than the terrorists. They reduce the capacity of the civillian population to go about their daily business.
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I see, so Israel should make sure the the general population isn't disrupted AT ALL while they go after the terrorist factions of the local GOVERNMENT.

ok, I agree that a nation has the right to defend its borders even if that means it enters another nation to do so, but I fail to see how Beirut could possibly be in the line of fire, as it is some distance away from the border with Israel.
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They have to go after the various sources.

I was watching BBC News not so long ago, and there were Lebanese Christians that were speaking out AGAINST Hezbollah. Not everyone in Lebanon supports the terrorists, but they are being punished as if they were the same.
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Are they? I don't think so. I think the guys firing rockets and putting up a fight, or the guys doing the kidnapping are being, or will be, treated much differently.

As for working with Israel, its clear that the Israeli's are not in the mood for any kind of co-operation.
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The first step of the offending nation's governemnt should be to speak out against the terrorist actions and offer support to israel for getting their people back and stamping out the terrorists while allowing Israel to do what is necessary. I haven't seen that happen. Why? Could it be because the terrorists are in charge or at least have substantial factions? Why yes, yes I think it could.
 
danoff
I see, so Israel should make sure the the general population isn't disrupted AT ALL while they go after the terrorist factions of the local GOVERNMENT.
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Yep, that sounds about right. Like I said before, not everyone in Lebanon is pro Hezbollah.

Maybe we are going to have to disagree on a few things in this debate, as we both have different views on how the situation is unfolding and how it should be resolved. I Don't like terrorism any more than I like the actions that Israel is taking. What I do know, is that the situation needs to be resolved soon, or the whole region will descend into anarchy.
 
Well what we should do is not lift a finger in any direction. But that wont happen. I'm so sick of America doing eveyones work for them. I say fluck the UN and fluck the EU. We should withdraw every damn troop we have back to US territory and then see how well Germany and France handle everything(along with everyone else).
 
*looks up at the 'collective punishment' argument*

That's a hard call to make. So far, we know that...

- Main civilian airport = kaput.
- Main highway out of Lebanon = kablooey.
- Seaports = blockaded.

So, the case can be made that Israel is cutting off terrorist supplies, and the case can equally be made that Israel is screwing everyone over.

But wait a minute. What about...the foreigners? If you blow up all the ways out, and you continue to toss bombs at the people trapped, then you will eventually hit people that have absolutely nothing to do with anything aside from their current, unlucky location on the planet.

There are 25,000 Americans in Lebanon. I hope the IDF knows where they're aiming.
 
magburner
Yep, that sounds about right. Like I said before, not everyone in Lebanon is pro Hezbollah.
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Doesn't mean Israel can't defend themselves agressively.

I Don't like terrorism any more than I like the actions that Israel is taking.
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I should hope not. I should hope that you like the terrorist actions LESS than the actions Israel is taking. Israel is taking care to avoid civilian casualties and simply cutoff supplies and transportion to the terrorists. The response against Israel has been to blindly lob explosives at their civilians. See a difference? I sure do.

What I do know, is that the situation needs to be resolved soon, or the whole region will descend into anarchy.
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I don't think Israel is in any danger of that. The rest of them can't control their nations well enough to stop terrorism, so I'd guess that they're pretty close to anarchy anyway.
 

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