Israel and Lebanon

[emad]

Eighteen people, including nine children, died in an Israeli attack on a civilian bus in southern Lebanon on Saturday.

Collateral damage?

A total of 90 civilians have died in the Israel-Lebanon conflict.

The lives of our two soldiers are worth far more than that

--source pulled from google news

 

[a6m5]

A6m5...look dont even attempt to minimize the kidnapping of two soldiers from accross the border by a Lebanese militia..hizbolla..it is in all ways an act of war . And Israel has the right to use all neccessary force to get them back or to punish the people responsible. And firing of hundreds of missiles at Israeli towns and cities is doing nothing but escalating the situation and forcing Israel to do more harm to southern Lebenon .

But ledhed, I'm not trying to downplay anything. Hezbollah are no good, labeled by many as terrorists. They attacked Israeli soldiers, killed some, kidnapped two. What was the Israelis' answer to that?

Firing Katyushas into Israel is escalating the crisis, yes, but Lebanese government is not ordering the attack, Hezbollah is.

Now ask yourself why ? Why did hizbolla pick this time to declare war ? They have no hope fighting Israel and have hurt the Palestinian cause immesurably along with their own interest in Lebenon. BUT they still play on .
Remember hizbolla is funded and largly controlled by Iran ( they have even fired Iranian missiles into Israel ) and also has links with Syria. remember the crazy monkey in Iran saying an attack on Syria by Israel is an attack on Iran ?

I thought Israel is the one who made this into a war? Israel was the victim here, yes. But attack and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers are nothing new. It is not a declaration of war. And if you argue that it is, fine. But still, they are attacking a wrong country, as Lebanon did not order the ambush on Israelis or the rocket attack.

Please attack Syria . Its the logical course for israel to take...then lets see what monkey boy in Iran hhas up his litlle sleeve , and why he is playing this game . Aside to raise oil prices .

First, I'm against attacking Iran without a solid reason, but if Iran do continue supporting attack on Israelis, they I believe the Israelis are fully justified to make whatever decision they need to make.

Uh, what? They're not targetting civilians. Any civilian damages are collateral, not intentional. There is a HUGE difference.

I thought they attacked an International Airport? Unless the Hezbollah jet fighters or bombers were taking off from there, I don't think you can discount it as collateral damage. As someone mentioned in this thread already(I think it was emad), they are attacking civilian targets to pressure Lebanese government into turn against Hezbollah. And while I agree that Lebanese government should be free of terrorists in their territory and government, it does not justify the degree of military actions Israelis are using here.

 

[Famine]

I thought they attacked an International Airport?

Yes - which isn't "killing people trying to flee the country".

Unless the Hezbollah jet fighters or bombers were taking off from there, I don't think you can discount it as collateral damage. As someone mentioned in this thread already(I think it was emad), they are attacking civilian targets to pressure Lebanese government into turn against Hezbollah. And while I agree that Lebanese government should be free of terrorists in their territory and government, it does not justify the degree of military actions Israelis are using here.

As someone else pointed out, terrorists don't use special terrorist-only utilities and transport - they use the same stuff as everyone else.

Shut the airport down - terrorists can't fly in or out. Shut the ports - terrorists cannot get supplies. Shut the power down - terrorists can't watch cable porn or make VX gas. It also has the effect that the civilians whose lives it disrupts get extremely annoyed that their government openly allow terrorists to reside in their country and bring all this crap down on them as a result...


Israel are not targeting civilians. They are targeting strategically important facilities which have the side-effect of also disrupting civilians' lives.

 

[a6m5]

Yes - which isn't "killing people trying to flee the country".

This is my mistake there. I didn't mean that Israelis are targeting "civilians". They are attacking civilian targets, like the airport.

As someone else pointed out, terrorists don't use special terrorist-only utilities and transport - they use the same stuff as everyone else.

Shut the airport down - terrorists can't fly in or out. Shut the ports - terrorists cannot get supplies. Shut the power down - terrorists can't watch cable porn or make VX gas.

That is the reasoning, and it is flawed. If this really was an defensive move by Israel. In self-defense, Israel should be attacking the Hezbollah forces launching rockets into Israeli towns, not blowing up targets that belong to everybody. It's like shooting up the whole apartment to get one guy.

It also has the effect that the civilians whose lives it disrupts get extremely annoyed that their government openly allow terrorists to reside in their country and bring all this crap down on them as a result...

If that's the way you think the "effect" should be obtained in Lebanon, that is your opinion. I disagree.

Israel are not targeting civilians. They are targeting strategically important facilities which have the side-effect of also disrupting civilians' lives.

I tend to think that it's little more the disruption to those people. I know that if foreign military started blowing up Portland Internaional Airport and close all the borders, it will freak me out more than a little.

Sorry, Famine. I still say that they are overreacting.

 

[Danoff]

Collateral damage?

Yup. Dropping leaflets telling people to get the hell out is how Israel avoids killing civilians. Sometimes they're going to accidently take out a bus or civilians in a building, but they are trying to hit military areas and telling people head of time via leaflets to get away from military targets.

The lebanese terrorists on the otherhand are targetting schools, restaurants, and shopping malls - prompting Israel to declare a state of emergency so that they can close down public areas like that.

But I suppose you don't mind defending terrorists who target innocent people at schools and shopping malls as long as you can bash a nation that targets military headquarters and seaports?

The lives of our two soldiers are worth far more than that

Yes and no. No two lives are not worth more than 50. Yes, the lives of those soldiers are worth more than 50 because fighting for those kidnapped people is the only way to prevent MORE losses in the future. Going to war over a treaty, such as the one Iraq signed, which is zero lives, can be worth more than 2000 lives. Here in this country we went to war with England over taxes. Thousands of colonial lives were worth less than freedom. In Israel, a strong response to terrorism is worth risk to their soldiers and collateral damage. This is something that many people simply do not understand, but a human life is not the most valuable thing on the planet. There are reasons to fight and die, and the Israeli soldiers that are fighting this war know that they're fighting not just for two soldiers, but for the future safety of Israeli soldiers and civilians from terrorism.

 

[YSSMAN]

+1 on the last sentance there danoff...

I don't think I could have said it any better myself.

 

[ledhed]

But ledhed, I'm not trying to downplay anything. Hezbollah are no good, labeled by many as terrorists. They attacked Israeli soldiers, killed some, kidnapped two. What was the Israelis' answer to that?

Firing Katyushas into Israel is escalating the crisis, yes, but Lebanese government is not ordering the attack, Hezbollah is.


I thought Israel is the one who made this into a war? Israel was the victim here, yes. But attack and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers are nothing new. It is not a declaration of war. And if you argue that it is, fine. But still, they are attacking a wrong country, as Lebanon did not order the ambush on Israelis or the rocket attack.


First, I'm against attacking Iran without a solid reason, but if Iran do continue supporting attack on Israelis, they I believe the Israelis are fully justified to make whatever decision they need to make.


I thought they attacked an International Airport? Unless the Hezbollah jet fighters or bombers were taking off from there, I don't think you can discount it as collateral damage. As someone mentioned in this thread already(I think it was emad), they are attacking civilian targets to pressure Lebanese government into turn against Hezbollah. And while I agree that Lebanese government should be free of terrorists in their territory and government, it does not justify the degree of military actions Israelis are using here.

In the new age of public beheadings etc.....yes the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers is BOTH a new thing ..and..whith out a doubt...something to go to war over. Your own people are givingg their country THEIR lives for however many years EACH israeli serves...so WTF ...THEY DESERVE to have every effort made to rescue them and every effort to destroy those who attacked them..I could settle for no less ..How about you..if you had to stick your ass on the line ?

 

[a6m5]

How about you..if you had to stick your ass on the line ?

Israel has every right to hit Hezbollah militants and terrorists, not the Lebanese in general or their infrastructure that is not directly related to Hezbollah. That is all I'm saying.

 

[magburner]

As someone else pointed out, terrorists don't use special terrorist-only utilities and transport - they use the same stuff as everyone else.

Shut the airport down - terrorists can't fly in or out. Shut the ports - terrorists cannot get supplies. Shut the power down - terrorists can't watch cable porn or make VX gas. It also has the effect that the civilians whose lives it disrupts get extremely annoyed that their government openly allow terrorists to reside in their country and bring all this crap down on them as a result...

Israel are not targeting civilians. They are targeting strategically important facilities which have the side-effect of also disrupting civilians' lives.

This is still a flawed argument. I'll say this again, destroying civillian infrastructure is a war crime unless it can be proved that it was a military necessity. Attacking bridges, roads, power stations, airports, television stations, petrol stations, and villages (in the south) are far from a military nececity. Israel might say that it is going after Hezbollah targets, but in reality (and to most of the worlds media) is nothing more than collective punishment. Which by the way, is also a war crime.

I saw a news conference from the G8 yesterday, between Bush and Putin. Bush kept saying that Israel was right to attack 'Hezbollah'. In the report I saw, he never mentioned 'Lebanon'. He kept saying 'Hezbollah'. Bush knows what Israel is doing is wrong, but he can't very well say anything to its close ally. Its that closeness that will start to isolate Israel and Bush as the conflict continues, and international condemnation grows.

Putin on the other hand, said that Israel had used a disproportionate ammount of force, and he called for a complete ceasefire.

BTW Did anyone see this? Putin made Bush look like a loon in front of the worlds media at a G8 press conference. After talking about the Israel/Hezbollah conflict, Bush decided it would be a good time to have a swipe at the state of democracy in Russia.
Not missing a beat, Putin chimed back with a classic - 'What like the democracy in Iraq?' Everyone in the room was reduced to laughter! You could see Bush thinking to himself - 'Any second now, Any second now the ground will open up, and I'll be ok'. But it didn't, and he ended up looking a little daft.

 

[KSaiyu]

Uh, what? They're not targetting civilians. Any civilian damages are collateral, not intentional. There is a HUGE difference.

Don't expect me to believe they aren't targetting civilians, because that is a lie. And the reference to the killing of people fleeing was the instance yesterday when a car travelling AWAY from the city, under the advice of those leaflets dropped so helpfully by the Israelis was hit by a rocket killing a family instantly and wounding many others.

They're very good at claiming it's all collaterall damage, and no it's not at all necessary to be going at the Lebanese this hard over the kidnapping of 2 soldiers, we sure as hell didn't do this when the IRA was firing missiles at us.

 

[Touring Mars]

This is still a flawed argument. I'll say this again, destroying civillian infrastructure is a war crime unless it can be proved that it was a military necessity. Attacking bridges, roads, power stations, airports, television stations, petrol stations, and villages (in the south) are far from a military nececity. Israel might say that it is going after Hezbollah targets, but in reality (and to most of the worlds media) is nothing more than collective punishment. Which by the way, is also a war crime.

It's extremely hard, if not impossible, to deny that Israel are not indulging in collective punishment.... they are also doing a great job of demonstrating to the rest of the world what scant regard they have for working towards peace in the region - by reacting in this way, they have (in my view) played straight into the hands of the extremists and given them the pretext they need to start a more concerted campaign of violence. Hizbollah may enjoy a great deal of popular support in Lebanon, but they too have demonstrated that they will lose no sleep over the collateral deaths that their provokations and attacks have brought upon the Lebanese people. Israel should hang their heads in shame for (apparently) learning nothing in the last 25 years, and Hizbollah should do so aswell for bringing such mayhem upon (supposedly) their own people.... If Israel are not interested in peace (and clearly Hizbollah are not either), then Lebanon can only rely on the UN to help... they may have a long wait.

 

[Danoff]

It's extremely hard, if not impossible, to deny that Israel are not indulging in collective punishment.... they are also doing a great job of demonstrating to the rest of the world what scant regard they have for working towards peace in the region - by reacting in this way, they have (in my view) played straight into the hands of the extremists and given them the pretext they need to start a more concerted campaign of violence. Hizbollah may enjoy a great deal of popular support in Lebanon, but they too have demonstrated that they will lose no sleep over the collateral deaths that their provokations and attacks have brought upon the Lebanese people. Israel should hang their heads in shame for (apparently) learning nothing in the last 25 years, and Hizbollah should do so aswell for bringing such mayhem upon (supposedly) their own people.... If Israel are not interested in peace (and clearly Hizbollah are not either), then Lebanon can only rely on the UN to help... they may have a long wait.

Yea, I guess the same kind of thinking applies to the US after 9/11. I mean, if we'd been interested in peace, we would have given the terrorists money and food and told them to play nice. That would make it all better. Obviously by going to war we indicated that we aren't interested in peace. Anyone who goes to war is obviously not interested in peace. The only people who go to war and accept collateral damage are agressive people who either want to murder others or are greedy. Everyone knows the proper response to terrorism is to roll over and take it in the tailpipe. Then the terrorists get bored and move on - that's the way it works.

 

[KSaiyu]

Mars is right though, imagine the support of the Lebanese and other arab states towards Hizbollah now that Israel is carrying on this campaign. The average person will see no difference between them and the terrorists - in fact it's the Israelis who have killed the most civilians by a long way this past week.

 

[Danoff]

Mars is right though, imagine the support of the Lebanese and other arab states towards Hizbollah now that Israel is carrying on this campaign. The average person will see no difference between them and the terrorists

Then the average person is a moron.

in fact it's the Israelis who have killed the most civilians by a long way this past week.

Number of people killed > X does not make you a terrorist. Number of people killed < X does not prevent you from being a terrorist (even if X is 1).

 

[Cobra_UK]

danoff, poverty, magburner, ledhed, famine and yssman I want to say I agree and respect a lot of your arguments. US and UK did the same thing when 9/11 and 7/7 happened and Israel should have our support by the same ideology. Israel is not targeting civilians, civilians are collateral damage, much like civilians were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

We live in an age of terrorism, it's the plague of the 21st century and lines are very hard to distinguish. It's hard to precisely kill terrorists when they're living or operating from civilian areas. Sometimes terrorists may operate from a block of flats which also houses civilians. Of course they use civilian airports and sea ports, there are no special terrorist airports or sea ports. If people on this thread want to start blaming, blame Lebanon in equal amount to Israel. If Lebanon was a "righteous" government they would not allow terrorists to operate so freely and designate them better for their own and Israel's armed forces and wipe out terrorism and protect the civilians.

War is war, from Lebanon's territory acts of war were committed and as such Israel is retaliating. Mistakes are being made by both governments. Civilians die, harsh but true. Unfortunate and sometimes unavoidable.

 

[Famine]

I've just found out that a friend of mine was, until I told him this morning, planning to go on holiday to Beirut next week.

He doesn't watch the news, and was quite surprised when I asked him if he'd rather go to somewhere NOT nuked by Israel.

Been laughing all day about that one.

 

[Swift]

I've just found out that a friend of mine was, until I told him this morning, planning to go on holiday to Beirut next week.

He doesn't watch the news, and was quite surprised when I asked him if he'd rather go to somewhere NOT nuked by Israel.

Been laughing all day about that one.

That used to be me about 3 years ago. I kept out of the news on purpose because it was always so negative. Now I just avoid television news and I find it much more enlightening.

But man that's a trip!

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

Mars is right though, imagine the support of the Lebanese and other arab states towards Hizbollah now that Israel is carrying on this campaign. The average person will see no difference between them and the terrorists - in fact it's the Israelis who have killed the most civilians by a long way this past week.

Absolutely! Arms, & especially Missile transactions will increase dozens of times over amongst normally moderate groups as a direct result of israel's actions.

Two democratically elected bodies ( hamas & hizbollah ) have been directly attacked. The Palestinian state was nearly a viable entity ( if you beleived it's brokers ), this will be considered unforgiveable treachery in an already inflamed Arab world . There will be no phasing out of terrorist activities connected to these groups because ure actions have shat on their democratic opportunities.

What were the kidnappings about? Forcible detention of political prisoners whose fellows represent a democratic base. Such a protest as these kidnappings were initially had it's aims toward more democratic activity & were based upon previous successes. They were way too optimistic given post 9/11 policies & thusly Israel's iron fist approach will kill democracy, spread terrorist action & leave the region in forestfire war for the foreseeable future.

I am all for military activity that secures a peacefull & democratic aftermath. Israel may be purely fighting to survive, it is a state synonymous w/ war. The outcome may not be a practicable peace. It is a genuine absurdity that war should be an equilibrium if you don't incorporate this in your insurances for your children. What ime trying to say is that Israel has embarked on a path that can only lead to wholesale genoicide, which is always racial & always religeous. There can be only one god standing in these manga bouts!

 

[Danoff]

I've just found out that a friend of mine was, until I told him this morning, planning to go on holiday to Beirut next week.

He doesn't watch the news, and was quite surprised when I asked him if he'd rather go to somewhere NOT nuked by Israel.

Been laughing all day about that one.

I guess he hadn't found out that his flight was cancelled? "Um, so the airport has been bombed, you're going to have to get in on foot." How do you stay THAT disconnected from the news?

What ime trying to say is that Israel has embarked on a path that can only lead to wholesale genoicide, which is always racial & always religeous.

I don't see where you've estblished that wholesale genocide is the only possible outcome here. You're blaming Israel for a wrong that they haven't committed. Fair?

 

[Famine]

They arrange flights at the last minute, to take advantage of cancellations and reduced prices.

"I wondered why it's been so hard to find flights," he said.


I kid you not.

 

[Danoff]

"I wondered why it's been so hard to find flights," he said.

 

[Swift]

They arrange flights at the last minute, to take advantage of cancellations and reduced prices.

"I wondered why it's been so hard to find flights," he said.


I kid you not.

That guy is either really stupid or just lives in a dark hole somewhere. Wow.

 

[KSaiyu]

Then the average person is a moron.

Why, WHAT are the terrorists doing different to Israel, do you believe the Israelis are still defending themselves by continually bombing these targets?

Number of people killed > X does not make you a terrorist. Number of people killed < X does not prevent you from being a terrorist (even if X is 1).

I don't understand what you're saying there.

I don't see where you've estblished that wholesale genocide is the only possible outcome here. You're blaming Israel for a wrong that they haven't committed. Fair?

Then when will it stop, they've already killed 100+ civilians of a certain race in less than a week, what ARE the arabs and the world supposed to think it will come down to? Of course they're committing a wrongful act.

 

[Touring Mars]

Everyone knows the proper response to terrorism is to roll over and take it in the tailpipe. Then the terrorists get bored and move on - that's the way it works.

Sarcasm aside, I think everyone appreciates that Israel had to do something (and indeed have a right to respond and respond firmly)... but 'firmly' does not equate to 'carte blanche'. My point is not that Israel should kowtow to the terrorists, but to behave in a manner that is befitting of a country that is serious about acheiving a lasting peace in a region/world where it doesn't have many friends... by equating Hizbollah with the entire population of Lebanon, Israel are, in my view, making a grave mistake. By all means, they should respond - but they should do so proportionately and within the law, even if their adversaries have no regard for the law (or even their own people) themselves.

 

[Danoff]

Why, WHAT are the terrorists doing different to Israel

Hmmm... let me think for a second.... oh I've got one! Targeting civilians.

(Hint: Rocket attack at schools/shopping malls = targeting civilians, bombing Hezbollah headquarters after dropping leaflets that tip your had = protecting civilians)

I don't understand what you're saying there.

Perhaps I should type slower. Terrorism is not defined by number of people killed.

Then when will it stop, they've already killed 100+ civilians of a certain race in less than a week, what ARE the arabs and the world supposed to think it will come down to?

There you go again quoting the number of civilian casualties for no reason. It doesn't matter how many civilians were killed. What matters is HOW they were killed. Also, it's not Israel's fault that Jews aren't treated well in Lebanon or "Palestine" and so don't live there. Arabs, do on the otherhand, live in Israel. So who's the racist?

by equating Hizbollah with the entire population of Lebanon...

I don't see that they've done that. I can provide reasons why this is not the case. Can you provide me with reasons to think they've done this?

they should respond - but they should do so proportionately

Why? A disproportionate response is an excellent way to send the proper signal. One dead terrorist does not equal one dead Israeli. If the terrorists believe that by committing acts of terrorism they'll be encouraging Israelis to bring MORE hardship on their own organization than they're inflicting on the Israelis, perhaps the terrorists will think twice.

Saddam refused to comply with treaty terms and our response was to topple his regime and occupy his nation. The taliban harbored terrorism and our response was to decimate their organization. If we were forced to use "proportionate" responses we'd have to wait until our nation's government was toppled before we could topple anyone else's. Does that make sense? Does it make sense to effectively give the upper hand to the side with the least to lose?

Try this one on for size. Our own legal system (and yours too) is one of disproportionate responses. You can get years in prison for stealing a car. How's that for disproportionate? Makes sense to me though. If you told a theif that all he had to do if he was caught was pay back twice the money that was stolen, you'd have a lot of theives.

 

[KSaiyu]

Hmmm... let me think for a second.... oh I've got one! Targeting civilians.

(Hint: Rocket attack at schools/shopping malls = targeting civilians, bombing Hezbollah headquarters after dropping leaflets that tip your had = protecting civilians)

So you're saying that all those civilians that have died in lebanon were victims of legitimate strikes against military targets, even though it's been stated that it's ~10 hezbollah militants killed yet over 100 civilians? Come on.

Perhaps I should type slower. Terrorism is not defined by number of people killed.

Not slower, just clearer, I didn't understand. Yes, terrorism is not defined by that, yet we should expect a "free and democratic" country like Israel to not resort to terrorist tactics.

There you go again quoting the number of civilian casualties for no reason. It doesn't matter how many civilians were killed. What matters is HOW they were killed. Also, it's not Israel's fault that Jews aren't treated well in Lebanon or "Palestine" and so don't live there. Arabs, do on the otherhand, live in Israel. So who's the racist?

Where did that come from, I was saying how it could be seen as genocide since the lebanese are getting killed daily by the jews.

I don't see that they've done that. I can provide reasons why this is not the case. Can you provide me with reasons to think they've done this?[/danoff]

....by the killings of Lebanese civilians every day and not really deterring the Hezbollah militants.

Why? A disproportionate response is an excellent way to send the proper signal. One dead terrorist does not equal one dead Israeli. If the terrorists believe that by committing acts of terrorism they'll be encouraging Israelis to bring MORE hardship on their own organization than they're inflicting on the Israelis, perhaps the terrorists will think twice.

Saddam refused to comply with treaty terms and our response was to topple his regime and occupy his nation. The taliban harbored terrorism and our response was to decimate their organization. If we were forced to use "proportionate" responses we'd have to wait until our nation's government was toppled before we could topple anyone else's. Does that make sense? Does it make sense to effectively give the upper hand to the side with the least to lose?

And look whats happened to those countries - more terrorist atrocities than ever.

 

[Danoff]

So you're saying that all those civilians that have died in lebanon were victims of legitimate strikes against military targets, even though it's been stated that it's ~10 hezbollah militants killed yet over 100 civilians? Come on.

Give me a credible source for that claim.

Yes, terrorism is not defined by that, yet we should expect a "free and democratic" country like Israel to not resort to terrorist tactics.

The first part of the sentence contradicts the second given your basis for the claim. The first part of the sentence also contradicts your previous quote.

Where did that come from, I was saying how it could be seen as genocide since the lebanese are getting killed daily by the jews.

Lebanese and Jews? Or is it Arabs and Israelis? Or is it Arabs and Jews?

The proper term would be Terrorist vs. Israeli, since there are Arab Israelis and no Jews that I know of belong to Hezbollah or Hamas, which is who the Israelis are fighting.

I don't see that they've done that. I can provide reasons why this is not the case. Can you provide me with reasons to think they've done this?

....by the killings of Lebanese civilians every day and not really deterring the Hezbollah militants.

Um... I don't see what your response has to do with my statement.

And look whats happened to those countries - more terrorist atrocities than ever.

Yea, and if we'd gone to war with Iraq to reduce terrorism in Iraq you'd have just won the argument. But you see, we went to war with Iraq over a treaty violation, it didn't have anything to do with terrorism. And we decimated the Taliban because they harbored terrorists, not to save the people of Afghanistan from terrorism. My point was that disproprotionate force is useful and effective. Saddam can't violate any more treaties (and other countries will think twice). The Taliban will think twice too.

 

[FoolKiller]

I was saying how it could be seen as genocide since the lebanese are getting killed daily by the jews.

If Israel's goal was to wipe out all Muslims or Arabs then it would be genocide. Israel has said no such thing, nor have they acted in any such way. I am sure that if they found Christians in Hezbollah they would kill them too.

On the other hand, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran, to name a few, have stated that Israel and all the Jews should be wiped off the map.

Really think about what genocide is and what people have said and done and then tell me who it is that wants genocide. I am pretty sure the guys calling for the death of an entire group of people are the guilty party.

Do you seriously believe that Israel's goal is to kill all Lebanese? What evidence do you have to back that up?

 

[Danoff]

Do you seriously believe that Israel's goal is to kill all Lebanese? What evidence do you have to back that up?

...and if so, why have the not been doing a better job?

On the other hand, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran, to name a few, have stated that Israel and all the Jews should be wiped off the map.

Really think about what genocide is and what people have said and done and then tell me who it is that wants genocide.

This was my point earlier, but you said it better than I did.

 

[KSaiyu]

Give me a credible source for that claim.

BBC news 24, dunno if it's on their website, but doubtless you've heard of the BBC news channel.

The first part of the sentence contradicts the second given your basis for the claim. The first part of the sentence also contradicts your previous quote.

I said terrorist TACTICS, which was reffering to how they generally kill civilians, which is what the Israelis are doing as I refered to in my first point.

Lebanese and Jews? Or is it Arabs and Israelis? Or is it Arabs and Jews?

The proper term would be Terrorist vs. Israeli, since there are Arab Israelis and no Jews that I know of belong to Hezbollah or Hamas, which is who the Israelis are fighting.

Well it's the Jews of Israel who are firing the missiles and attacking the Lebanese civilians - that's what I meant.

Um... I don't see what your response has to do with my statement.

You asked for reasons why we think that Israel equates the Hezbollah with the Lebanese, to which I replied by killing all those civilians and only a handful of militants - thereby classing them as targets. Collaterall damage or not, they are still killing Lebanese in the 100s in response to Hezbollah.

Yea, and if we'd gone to war with Iraq to reduce terrorism in Iraq you'd have just won the argument. But you see, we went to war with Iraq over a treaty violation, it didn't have anything to do with terrorism. And we decimated the Taliban because they harbored terrorists, not to save the people of Afghanistan from terrorism. My point was that disproprotionate force is useful and effective. Saddam can't violate any more treaties (and other countries will think twice). The Taliban will think twice too.

And I'm saying that in those instances look where disproportianate force got the countries in question. Doesn't matter about the reasons, just look at the lasting effect.

If Israel's goal was to wipe out all Muslims or Arabs then it would be genocide. Israel has said no such thing, nor have they acted in any such way. I am sure that if they found Christians in Hezbollah they would kill them too.

What the other guy was saying is that is where it could/will lead to - genocide of the Lebanese. I also said, where is there left to go now that they're killing the Lebanese every day?

On the other hand, Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran, to name a few, have stated that Israel and all the Jews should be wiped off the map.

Really think about what genocide is and what people have said and done and then tell me who it is that wants genocide. I am pretty sure the guys calling for the death of an entire group of people are the guilty party.

Yes that is true, but look which state is the one who is actually on the first steps to genocide. (Notice I said state, since it's the terrorists who actually act against Israel.)