Israel and Lebanon

[Danoff]

Very clever in fact, murderous as well.

Just not as smart as you.

This would be the equivalent to us bombing the whole of South Ireland, because the IRA use the bridges/roads/hospitals. It's stupid and plainly going too far.

Right they're stupid.

I can, they are equating the country of Lebanon to Hezbollah.

Murderous bloodthirsty idiots who can't see past their own hatred for Arabs. Clearly if 500 civilians were killed, it means that Israel hates arabs. You're right KSaiyu, you're a lot smarter than the Israeli military. It's too bad you're not in charge over there because you would have prevented all of the violence. They needs someone of your massive intellect in control so that there can finally be peace between the oppressed Arabs and the muderous bloodthirsty Jewish retards.

 

[Omnis]

Lmao, danoff. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[KSaiyu]

Just not as smart as you.

lol, I like to think I'm clever but if you say so. I was reffering to how clever they are in masking this as defending themselves, which people like you and Swift are prepared to believe.

Right they're stupid.

I'd say yes, if we did bomb an entire country to get to the terrorists, yes we were stupid.

Murderous bloodthirsty idiots who can't see past their own hatred for Arabs. Clearly if 500 civilians were killed, it means that Israel hates arabs.

Yea, but we already know Israel doesn't really like muslims just like Muslims don't really like Israel, hence the war that NEVER ENDS.

You're right KSaiyu, you're a lot smarter than the Israeli military. It's too bad you're not in charge over there because you would have prevented all of the violence.

huh

They needs someone of your massive intellect in control so that there can finally be peace between the oppressed Arabs and the muderous bloodthirsty Jewish retards.

ahhhhhh

What a right tosser.

 

[Danoff]

lol, I like to think I'm clever but if you say so. I was reffering to how clever they are in masking this as defending themselves,

You mean by telling the Lebanese people to get out of the area before they drop bombs, and by only striking infrastructure and terrorist headquarters? By confining their strikes to terrorists or suspected terrorists and generally avoiding the use of genocidal techniques? You're right!! That's brilliant way to get away with genocide, by not doing it!!

Why has nobody thought of this before?

 

[KSaiyu]

You mean by telling the Lebanese people to get out of the area before they drop bombs, and by only striking infrastructure and terrorist headquarters? By confining their strikes to terrorists or suspected terrorists and generally avoiding the use of genocidal techniques? You're right!! That's brilliant way to get away with genocide, by not doing it!!

Why has nobody thought of this before?

yep, you know, all the Lebanese like to gather at the latest terrorist hotspot for some Shisha, they probably all had it coming standing there smoking, ignoring the leaflets telling them to get out of their own homes

Stop with the genocide, I told you that it's not genocide, so stop using that as a point against me jeezas

 

[Famine]

Remember the Blitz?

Yes, but that had an objective.

Which was? And what was the result?

If you mean the London blitz, it was to demoralise us and hit the industrial East End

Sooo... aiming at industrial, militarily relevant targets in a civilian area is justifiable, unless it's Israel?

If it's War - then why are so many civilians dead and what are the objectives?

In the case of the Blitz, the objectives were to remove manfacturing ability and KILL CIVILIANS. Was it war? Mmmmmm... Let me think now...

At least Israel are aiming for terrorists.

 

[a6m5]

It's quite simple (and I haven't changed my story on this, though the president has). The reason and the justification are separate. The reason we went to war is because we wanted to do some nation building in a region that's not particularly friendly to us. That doesn't justify anything, that's just our motivation. The justification comes from the fact that Iraq attacked Kuwait. We kicked them back into their country and signed an agreement with them. They violated the terms of that agreement, so all bets are off, we're back at war.

But it was indeed played out like it was part in response to 9/11 by the government and the media. Majority of people supported the invasion, because according to them, Hussein had something to do with the 9/11( ).

It really is as simple as that, and I've stated all of this over a year or two ago in one of the many Iraq threads. The Iraq situation does have some bearing on the discussion at hand, but I'm already sorry I brought it up (did I bring it up?). If you want to talk about Iraq some more let's take it to another thread, but this is the proper framework for the argument. Ignore what the president thinks will sell with the American people and read what I wrote above.

Sorry, I brought it up. I was trying to back up my argument with that, but you are right, it is whole another can of worms.

 

[Danoff]

Stop with the genocide, I told you that it's not genocide, so stop using that as a point against me jeezas

Oh so when you said this

they are equating the country of Lebanon to Hezbollah.

or

I'd say yes, if we did bomb an entire country to get to the terrorists, yes we were stupid.

or

Yea, but we already know Israel doesn't really like muslims just like Muslims don't really like Israel, hence the war that NEVER ENDS.

You didn't mean that Israel wants to wipe out everyone in Lebanon?

 

[KSaiyu]

Sooo... aiming at industrial, militarily relevant targets in a civilian area is justifiable, unless it's Israel?

So should we be allowed to get away with a blitz like how we bombed against Dresdon nowadays against, say, Northern Sri Lanka to wipe out Tamil Tiger militants? You're talking of a war over 1/2 a Century ago.

At least Israel are aiming for terrorists.

lol, whatever you want to believe.

 

[Danoff]

But it was indeed played out like it was part in response to 9/11 by the government and the media. Majority of people supported the invasion, because according to them, Hussein had something to do with the 9/11( ).

I'm going to take this to the nearest Iraq thread.

 

[Famine]

So should we be allowed to get away with a blitz like how we bombed against Dresdon nowadays against, say, Northern Sri Lanka to wipe out Tamil Tiger militants?

Yes.

You're talking of a war over 1/2 a Century ago.

But a war nonetheless. You asked:

If it's War - then why are so many civilians dead

Answer: LOTS of civilians died in the Blitz, and it certainly was a war.

lol, whatever you want to believe.

I'm not the one drawing conclusions and "if you ask me"s. I'm just going on the facts. Israel have targetted strategically important facilities - bridges, ports, airports, power stations, gasoline supplies. If they were targetting civilians, they'd blow up hospitals or use the thousands of megatons of nuclear weapons they have to melt the place into beaded glass.


Incidentally, if you cannot handle debating, don't do it. Please do not refer to other debaters as "tossers" simply because they don't agree with you. It's ad hominem and against the AUP.

 

[KSaiyu]

they are equating the country of Lebanon to Hezbollah

A sentiment felt by the actual Lebanese because they're getting bombed for Hezbollah being in the country

I'd say yes, if we did bomb an entire country to get to the terrorists, yes we were stupid.

that was from the Britain/IRA equivalent.

Yea, but we already know Israel doesn't really like muslims just like Muslims don't really like Israel, hence the war that NEVER ENDS.

That doesn't really relate to what you're trying to say....

You didn't mean that Israel wants to wipe out everyone in Lebanon?

Remember earlier when I said about a difference between wiping out a country and excessivly retaliating.

 

[a6m5]

You didn't mean that Israel wants to wipe out everyone in Lebanon?

I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping up with the other arguments going on here, so maybe I'm missing something. But this post looks like you are just putting words in his mouth......

I'm going to take this to the nearest Iraq thread.

I should have just kept my big mouth shut.

 

[Danoff]

Remember earlier when I said about a difference between wiping out a country and excessivly retaliating.

Remember what I said about you claiming genocide?

I'm sorry, I haven't been keeping up with the other arguments going on here, so maybe I'm missing something. But this post looks like you are just putting words in his mouth......

Just playing back the claims that Israel is out to kill everyone in Lebanon that's all.

 

[Famine]

A sentiment felt by the actual Lebanese because they're getting bombed for Hezbollah being in the country

Nope. Lebanese territory is being bombed because Hezb'Allah is operating strikes against Israeli territory from within their borders without any attempt by Lebanon to stop them. In fact they form part of the government of Lebanon.

Remember when we performed similar attacks against the Afghan territory because the Taliban were operating strikes from their territory without any attempt by the Afghans to stop them - and in fact the Taliban formed part of (100%) the government of Afghanistan? We aimed for power stations, gasoline dumps, bridges and airports too, killing some Afghan civilians in the process...

 

[KSaiyu]

Yes.

wow, that's gotta suck....

But a war nonetheless. You asked:

Yes, I asked why they'res so many civilians dead because in this day and age we shouldn't be performing blitzes like that against a country that will only result in a small amount of military casualties compared to civilian deaths. Hence why I think this is a heavy-handed retaliation by Israel.

I'm not the one drawing conclusions and "if you ask me"s. I'm just going on the facts. Israel have targetted strategically important facilities - bridges, ports, airports, power stations, gasoline supplies. If they were targetting civilians, they'd blow up hospitals or use the thousands of megatons of nuclear weapons they have to melt the place into beaded glass.

Well I'm going on the facts of the amount of civilians dead and how it has hurt hezbollah. 200 in 6 days doesn't bode well for a country that is apparently going out of it's way to avoid civilian casualties.

Incidentally, if you cannot handle debating, don't do it. Please do not refer to other debaters as "tossers" simply because they don't agree with you. It's ad hominem and against the AUP.

lol, I can handle a debate, I've had to keep posting every few minutes against at least 3 people, what I don't like is being treated like a child with sarcastic comments

Murderous bloodthirsty idiots who can't see past their own hatred for Arabs. Clearly if 500 civilians were killed, it means that Israel hates arabs. You're right KSaiyu, you're a lot smarter than the Israeli military. It's too bad you're not in charge over there because you would have prevented all of the violence. They needs someone of your massive intellect in control so that there can finally be peace between the oppressed Arabs and the muderous bloodthirsty Jewish retards.

 

[a6m5]

Just playing back the claims that Israel is out to kill everyone in Lebanon that's all.

OK. Since I didn't read all his posts, I will stay out of this one. Sorry for butting my head in, it just that one exchange looked little unfair to KSaiyu.

But to anyone claiming genocide regarding the attack on Lebanon, it's not even close.

 

[ledhed]

Why blame Israel for defending themselves at all ? Why not be constructive and find a way to stop them from being attacked from outside their borders , so they do not have to retaliate against terrorist cowards that hide amongst the civilian population ? Is it too much to ask to have you condemn the murderers insteaad of the victim ?

Or would that get your , radical left wing card , taken away from you ?

I guess its not trendy enough to condemn the people doing the kidnapping and firing hundreds of rockets and missiles at Israel while hiding among civilians to use as shields .

Dont worry too much about all the dead israeli civilians ..after all they are only Jews .

 

[KSaiyu]

Remember what I said about you claiming genocide?

But I didn't bring that up! I'm saying that they're not wiping out Lebanon, but theyre using over-excessive force which is killing civilians.

Just playing back the claims that Israel is out to kill everyone in Lebanon that's all.

See, when did I say that

Nope. Lebanese territory is being bombed because Hezb'Allah is operating strikes against Israeli territory from within their borders without any attempt by Lebanon to stop them. In fact they form part of the government of Lebanon.

They can call it whatever, but it's obvious minimizing civilian deaths is not high on the agenda

Remember when we performed similar attacks against the Afghan territory because the Taliban were operating strikes from their territory without any attempt by the Afghans to stop them - and in fact the Taliban formed part of (100%) the government of Afghanistan? We aimed for power stations, gasoline dumps, bridges and airports too, killing some Afghan civilians in the process...

Yes, but what do you want the Lebanese to do, try and get rid of a terrorist organisation operating there and everything will be fine afterwards?? They know there would be consequences if they tried to do that. Also the Afghan civilians don't compare to the amount of Lebanese killed by Israel this past week if I remember right.

Why blame Israel for defending themselves at all ? Why not be constructive and find a way to stop them from being attacked from outside their borders , so they do not have to retaliate against terrorist cowards that hide amongst the civilian population ? Is it too much to ask to have you condemn the murderers insteaad of the victim ?

Or would that get your , radical left wing card , taken away from you ?

I guess its not trendy enough to condemn the people doing the kidnapping and firing hundreds of rockets and missiles at Israel while hiding among civilians to use as shields .

Dont worry too much about all the dead israeli civilians ..after all they are only Jews .

lol if that's to me then where have I defended the actual militants and kidnappers? I'm just arguing against Israel and it's unwilligness to negotiate the release of prisoners (the innocent ones and don't deny they don't have some) or some other way to stop them killing the people of Lebanon

EDIT: I know, should have hit edit button, this is getting tiring

 

[Famine]

Yes, I asked why they'res so many civilians dead because in this day and age we shouldn't be performing blitzes like that against a country that will only result in a small amount of military casualties compared to civilian deaths. Hence why I think this is a heavy-handed retaliation by Israel.

Here's the thing. It's not really Hezb'Allah's fault. It's the fault of the Lebanese government.

I'll explain - as part of the Syrian withdrawal, both sides signed the Taif Agreement in 1989. That Agreement states that there must be "disbanding of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias", requiring the government to use the army in the south Lebanon area bordering Israel to ensure this.

But of course Hezb'Allah form a part of the Lebanese government, so the government reneged on the deal and allow Hezb'Allah's militant wing to operate with impugnity - including sending rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli territory. This makes Hezb'Allah Israel's enemy - and it makes Lebanon, who give the group credence, Israel's enemy.

The Lebanese people have a weak government who, in the face of notoriously volatile neighbours, cannot back up deals it has signed to broker a peace - albeit a fragile one - with them. Israel are under no obligation to avoid killing Lebanese people - they elected the government which has declared war, by proxy on Israel - but has so far restricted itself to hitting targets which will hamstring paramilitary activity. Some civilians have died in the process, but that's because terrorists have absolutely no qualms about setting up bases in amongst the homes of the people they claim to be fighting for and using them as human shields.

As I said earlier, if Israel wanted to kill Lebanese civilians they'd blow up places where lots of them are - hospitals, schools, malls - or just nuke the whole area. And I mean nuke - Israel has one of the most formidable nuclear arsenals on the planet, and is not controlled by the NPT.


When the dust has settled, maybe the Lebanese people will oust their government and elect in one which stands by the peace treaties it makes.

Well I'm going on the facts of the amount of civilians dead and how it has hurt hezbollah. 200 in 6 days doesn't bode well for a country that is apparently going out of it's way to avoid civilian casualties.

How can you tell a dead terrorist apart from a dead civilian?

lol, I can handle a debate, I've had to keep posting every few minutes against at least 3 people, what I don't like is being treated like a child with sarcastic comments

Then why respond with ad hominem?

 

[ledhed]

lol if that's to me then where have I defended the actual militants and kidnappers? I'm just arguing against Israel and it's unwilligness to negotiate the release of prisoners (the innocent ones and don't deny they don't have some) or some other way to stop them killing the people of Lebanon

EDIT: I know, should have hit edit button, this is getting tiring

You do not bargain with terrorist never mind kidnappers . And crossing the border too kill soldiers and kidnapping is an act of war ...not a negotiating point .

Israels negotiating right now in the way the terrorist understand . It will kill them until they run out of terrorist targets..unless of course the Lebenese would like to take responsibility for their own country . At least they ( Israel ) are not tageting civilians ..and if you are Lebenese ..you should know to stay away from anything hizzbola ..if not ...BOOM .

I cant seem to muster sympathy for a country that has the UN in the south and has been told to disarm hizbolla ...just because this would happen...Lebanon did nothing ...so now they are reaping the whirlwind .

If you are Lebanese go shoot some Hizbolla...the faster you get rid of them thee sooner you can have some peace .

 

[KSaiyu]

The Lebanese people have a weak government who, in the face of notoriously volatile neighbours, cannot back up deals it has signed to broker a peace - albeit a fragile one - with them. Israel are under no obligation to avoid killing Lebanese people - they elected the government which has declared war, by proxy on Israel - but has so far restricted itself to hitting targets which will hamstring paramilitary activity. Some civilians have died in the process, but that's because terrorists have absolutely no qualms about setting up bases in amongst the homes of the people they claim to be fighting for and using them as human shields.

As I said earlier, if Israel wanted to kill Lebanese civilians they'd blow up places where lots of them are - hospitals, schools, malls - or just nuke the whole area. And I mean nuke - Israel has one of the most formidable nuclear arsenals on the planet, and is not controlled by the NPT.


When the dust has settled, maybe the Lebanese people will oust their government and elect in one which stands by the peace treaties it makes.

But then where is there to go for the Lebanese - like I said earlier ousting Hezbollah could have worse ramifications, possibly creating another civil war (which ironically I heard the Jordanian president say they could be heading if Israel continue).

How can you tell a dead terrorist apart from a dead civilian?

I dunno, I'm taking these figures from the news channels on Sky.

Then why respond with ad hominem?

heheheh I dunno what that means, I just hate being treated like a child.

I'm off to bed, this debating reminds me of that BBC series on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict....n.e.v.e.r.e.n.d.i.n.g

 

[a6m5]

Why blame Israel for defending themselves at all ? Why not be constructive and find a way to stop them from being attacked from outside their borders , so they do not have to retaliate against terrorist cowards that hide amongst the civilian population ? Is it too much to ask to have you condemn the murderers insteaad of the victim ?

Or would that get your , radical left wing card , taken away from you ?

I guess its not trendy enough to condemn the people doing the kidnapping and firing hundreds of rockets and missiles at Israel while hiding among civilians to use as shields .

Dont worry too much about all the dead israeli civilians ..after all they are only Jews .

I don't know who you are talking to, but labeling Israel's counter attack as a "overreaction" does not equal pro-terrorism or anti-semitism(sp?) of anykind.

On a personal level, I feel bad about every civilians who were killed in this conflict. Their race, nationality or religion are irrelevant.

 

[Famine]

But then where is there to go for the Lebanese - like I said earlier ousting Hezbollah could have worse ramifications, possibly creating another civil war (which ironically I heard the Jordanian president say they could be heading if Israel continue).

Civil war vs. all-out war with a nuclear superpower.

Not a tough choice.

Hezb'Allah make up less than a fifth of the parliamentary seats. Lebanon are now paying for a minority of their citizens' beliefs and a weak government.

I dunno, I'm taking these figures from the news channels on Sky.

And it's a question you ought to be asking yourself.

If you blow up an apartment block with 50 people inside, have you killed 50 civilians? Or is it possible to identify, somehow, a terrorist in amongst them? After a completely different, and anti-you, country's medical services have got hold of them.

Have Sky gone and examined all of the bodies, and not found a single one with explosives tied round his chest, still clutching an AK-47?

heheheh I dunno what that means

Ad = At/to; Hominem = The person.

It means attacking a person, rather than attacking their points. Like when you referred to danoff as "what a tosser" rather than deconstruct his points.

 

[Danoff]

lol, I can handle a debate, I've had to keep posting every few minutes against at least 3 people, what I don't like is being treated like a child with sarcastic comments

Murderous bloodthirsty idiots who can't see past their own hatred for Arabs. Clearly if 500 civilians were killed, it means that Israel hates arabs. You're right KSaiyu, you're a lot smarter than the Israeli military. It's too bad you're not in charge over there because you would have prevented all of the violence. They needs someone of your massive intellect in control so that there can finally be peace between the oppressed Arabs and the muderous bloodthirsty Jewish retards.

Man I'm good. Funny AND poignant.

If you don't want to be treated like a child, try to avoid sounding like one. It's not like these are personal attacks (well, maybe just ever-so-slightly). They're exaggerations of bad arguments you're making. They're mockery, which, when last I checked, was still a valid way to get a point across.

 

[ledhed]

A6m5....most people seem to want to hold israel to a different standard than they do the terrorist...and it sickens me.

Israel is going out of its way to avoid lebanese casualties BUT will not restrict attacks against ANY part of the infastructure the terrorist may be able to use to move freely and continue to resupply with the MISSILES and ROCKETS they are aiming at Israels cities with NO reguard for civilians .

I do not know what part of war you do not understand but when your country is being bombarded 24 hours a day you do what you need to do to protect yourself .

Lebenon is reaping the results of ITS failure to provide a secure southern border.
And BTW say Hello to the two thousand UN troops " monitoring " Lebenons southern border ...what use are they ?

Bring the UN in and let them take controll of southern Lebenon....I give them 2 hours on the ground before they are kidnapped and beheaded on live internet ....they are worthless..and I would LOVE to see them try to disarm Hizbolla....hehehee that should be fun .

At any rate give Israel a few weeks to sort them out . sooner or later Hizbolla that stay will be dead and the rest will be in syder holes ..or Syria or Iran...then when its SAFE ...the UN can come in and ignore the border some more .

 

[a6m5]

A6m5....most people seem to want to hold israel to a different standard than they do the terrorist...and it sickens me.

I do hold them to a different standard. They are victim of non-stop terrorist attacks, surrounded by very aggressive neighbors. They have every right to be firm in fighting back.

Israel is going out of its way to avoid lebanese casualties BUT will not restrict attacks against ANY part of the infastructure the terrorist may be able to use to move freely and continue to resupply with the MISSILES and ROCKETS they are aiming at Israels cities with NO reguard for civilians .
I do not know what part of war you do not understand but when your country is being bombarded 24 hours a day you do what you need to do to protect yourself .

That's why I think ISD should be targetting the guys who's doing the attacking. Not the sandwich shop where they ate their lunch last(I'm just making a point), or where they fill up. With your argument; yes, Hezbollah can be stopped, if you destroy Lebanon. But I don't think that is a good enough reason to bomb civilian infrastructures.

Here is what I would have done after the skirmish at the border:

1) Contact Lebanon. Notify that ISD were coming in to capture(or kill ) Hezbollah militants. If they should protest this, or attempt to protect Hezbollah, Israeli government will consider Lebanon as a ally of Hezbollah.

2a) If Lebanon OK's, I would ask them to support ISD in Lebanon territory and let the hunt begin.
2b) Lebanon warns ISD to stay out. I would order ISD to search for the hostages, and also destroy the rockets that Hezbollah possesses. Take out any Lebanese Forces that get in the way.
2c) Lebanon fully cooperate with Hezbollah. I would order pretty much what Israel is doing now. Maybe a bit more.

Lebenon is reaping the results of ITS failure to provide a secure southern border.
And BTW say Hello to the two thousand UN troops " monitoring " Lebenons southern border ...what use are they ?

Bring the UN in and let them take controll of southern Lebenon....I give them 2 hours on the ground before they are kidnapped and beheaded on live internet ....they are worthless..and I would LOVE to see them try to disarm Hizbolla....hehehee that should be fun .

Lebanese are partially at falut here, I don't doubt that. I agree that U.N. troops are joke. They don't get much done, do they?

 

[Famine]

But I don't think that is a good enough reason to bomb civilian infrastructures.

That's what we did - in Afghanistan and Iraq...

 

[Danoff]

That's what we did - in Afghanistan and Iraq...

...and it made sense strategically. I'm glad we did, and I'm glad Israel has.

 

[RallyF1]

why do i have the feeling that someone is going to get banned from these forums by the end of it.
Facts:
hizbollah is supported by iran and syria.
israel is supported by the U.S.
why not let the u.s. and iran and syria fight it out since they are the suppliers of these two fighting factions and then we declare the winner. and the loser and all his followers would be shunned once and for all.