Israel and Lebanon

[Famine]

why do i have the feeling that someone is going to get banned from these forums by the end of it.

No clue. Anyone spotted any swearing, spam or advertising yet?

 

[Danoff]

why do i have the feeling that someone is going to get banned from these forums by the end of it.
Facts:
hizbollah is supported by iran and syria.
israel is supported by the U.S.
why not let the u.s. and iran and syria fight it out since they are the suppliers of these two fighting factions and then we declare the winner. and the loser and all his followers would be shunned once and for all.

I love this line of reasoning. "Just let 'em fight it out". Like the winner of the fight must be the one who was right to begin with. Don't we move past that kind of thinking by the time we turn like 8? We concern ourselves with who is right because we can't rely on God to skew the battle in favor of the just cause.

 

[RallyF1]

I love this line of reasoning. "Just let 'em fight it out". Like the winner of the fight must be the one who was right to begin with. Don't we move past that kind of thinking by the time we turn like 8? We concern ourselves with who is right because we can't rely on God to skew the battle in favor of the just cause.

the bush adminstration, in theire own god given intellegence, established that iraq was linked to 9/11 and they went after them. why don't they do the same with iran and syria since israel is a FRIEND of the u.s., i like the sound of it, " A FRIEND". i haven't heard of a friend who costs you 1.4 billion dollars in cash money every year. i wish i had that kind of a friend.

 

[a6m5]

That's what we did - in Afghanistan and Iraq...

Iraq, I never agreed with either.

Afghanistan, they sided Bin Laden. Most of the international community supported, or joined the American effort. Plus, some of the Afghans actually cooperated in the hunt for terrorists, working with the U.S. Totally different than what's going on with Lebanon.

 

[Famine]

Iraq, I never agreed with either.

Afghanistan, they sided Bin Laden. Most of the international community supported, or joined the American effort. Plus, some of the Afghans actually cooperated in the hunt for terrorists, working with the U.S. Totally different than what's going on with Lebanon.

Yes. Lebanon side with, fund and validate the terrorists, while putting them in political office (none of which happened in Afghanistan, obviously) and ignoring their own treaty demanding that they disarm and abolish them. Making them a FAR more viable target.

 

[a6m5]

Yes. Lebanon side with, fund and validate the terrorists, while putting them in political office and ignoring their own treaty demanding that they disarm and abolish them. Making them a FAR more viable target.

Lebanese government is funding and protecting Hezbollah? If that's the case, I stand corrected. I think the current level of ISD attack on Lebanon is fully justifiable.

 

[RallyF1]

Yes. Lebanon side with, fund and validate the terrorists, while putting them in political office (none of which happened in Afghanistan, obviously) and ignoring their own treaty demanding that they disarm and abolish them. Making them a FAR more viable target.

have you ever been in a war?, have you lived in one and had rockets flying over head? have you ever smelled the stench of burning flesh in the morning? have you lived without food for weeks on end because you lived under seige? have you ever filled gallons of water and walked 5 miles avoiding bullets and shrapnel?
then i would like to know, based on what are you and everybody else in here dictating who should be fair game to be targeted or not?

"hypocrisy at it's best"

 

[a6m5]

"hypocrisy at it's best"

We should be professional politicians.

 

[RallyF1]

We should be professional politicians.

Gracefully put. only a politician has that kind of answer.

 

[Famine]

have you ever been in a war?, have you lived in one and had rockets flying over head? have you ever smelled the stench of burning flesh in the morning? have you lived without food for weeks on end because you lived under seige? have you ever filled gallons of water and walked 5 miles avoiding bullets and shrapnel?
then i would like to know, based on what are you and everybody else in here dictating who should be fair game to be targeted or not?

The Israelis have - through state-sponsored terrorism from their neighbours, Lebanon.

Would you have YOUR government sit there and soak it up, while the country next door rocketed your schools and hospitals?

"hypocrisy at it's best"

How is it?

 

[RallyF1]

The Israelis have - through state-sponsored terrorism from their neighbours, Lebanon.

Would you have YOUR government sit there and soak it up, while the country next door rocketed your schools and hospitals?
guess what, the lebanese goverment does not have an american frien like israel and they are biting the bullet.


How is it?

do i have to breast feed it to you. figure it out on your own.

 

[Danoff]

have you ever been in a war?, have you lived in one and had rockets flying over head? have you ever smelled the stench of burning flesh in the morning? have you lived without food for weeks on end because you lived under seige? have you ever filled gallons of water and walked 5 miles avoiding bullets and shrapnel?
then i would like to know, based on what are you and everybody else in here dictating who should be fair game to be targeted or not?

Wow, nice argument. I guess none of us are really justified in thinking we understand the politics of the situation until we strafe some bullets.

Oh wait, those have nothing to do with each other. Nevermind, you're just off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the conversation.

the bush adminstration, in theire own god given intellegence, established that iraq was linked to 9/11 and they went after them. why don't they do the same with iran and syria since israel is a FRIEND of the u.s.

A) This isn't the proper thread for this discussion.
B) Links between 9/11 and Iraq weren't necessary or supplied.
C) This has NOTHING to do with the post you're responding to, which indicated that your response of "let them fight it out" doesn't solve or mean anything.

So, on point. If we were to "let them fight it out" and Israel wiped the floor with the region (which they could obviously do with their arsenal if they really wanted to), what would that prove? That Israel is right? Might = Right? I don't think so.

By the way, if you decide to respond to this, please stick to the friggin point.

 

[YSSMAN]

(wow, I missed a lot today)

 

[RallyF1]

Wow, nice argument. I guess none of us are really justified in thinking we understand the politics of the situation until we strafe some bullets.

Oh wait, those have nothing to do with each other. Nevermind, you're just off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the conversation.




A) This isn't the proper thread for this discussion.
B) Links between 9/11 and Iraq weren't necessary or supplied.
C) This has NOTHING to do with the post you're responding to, which indicated that your response of "let them fight it out" doesn't solve or mean anything.

So, on point. If we were to "let them fight it out" and Israel wiped the floor with the region (which they could obviously do with their arsenal if they really wanted to), what would that prove? That Israel is right? Might = Right? I don't think so.

By the way, if you decide to respond to this, please stick to the friggin point.

living in war gives you a gretaer understanding of what is like to be in a war and makes you appreciate what
it is like to live in peace. it's something that you have not experienced and have no right in giving an opinion about. watching it behind your screens does not qualify you to lightly express your support for war.
i liked the way you try to dismiss my posting by saying that it does not belong to this thread, but you failed to mention that you took my quote out of contest. the 9/11 incident was only as a reference and not the subject matter, and when i said "let them fight it out" everybody demonstrated their understanding to what i said through their responses except you. but i guess you have selective reading just like the media in the United states and it viewers who have selective hearing. media coverage is a disgrace, thank god for the internet. " fight it out" was ment for the U.S., Iran and syria, in case your still confused.
and regarding the last comment about israel wiping the floor with the region, i would like to say that you have disgraced my intellegence becasue i'm stooping my intellectual level to yours with your ignorance about facts and demographics. listen here son and i will break it down in 1,2, 3s so you wont get lost:
1)israel 6 million.
2)arabs 456 million.
3)give each arabd one piece of falafel(look it up)
4)tell each arab to throw that falafel on israel.
5) israel would be in deep humus(look it up again, hint falfel and humus go hand in hand)
6) go grow yourself and independent opinion rather than relying to what's given to you.

 

[ledhed]

living in war gives you a gretaer understanding of what is like to be in a war and makes you appreciate what
it is like to live in peace. it's something that you have not experienced and have no right in giving an opinion about. watching it behind your screens does not qualify you to lightly express your support for war.
i liked the way you try to dismiss my posting by saying that it does not belong to this thread, but you failed to mention that you took my quote out of contest. the 9/11 incident was only as a reference and not the subject matter, and when i said "let them fight it out" everybody demonstrated their understanding to what i said through their responses except you. but i guess you have selective reading just like the media in the United states and it viewers who have selective hearing. media coverage is a disgrace, thank god for the internet. " fight it out" was ment for the U.S., Iran and syria, in case your still confused.
and regarding the last comment about israel wiping the floor with the region, i would like to say that you have disgraced my intellegence becasue i'm stooping my intellectual level to yours with your ignorance about facts and demographics. listen here son and i will break it down in 1,2, 3s so you wont get lost:
1)israel 6 million.
2)arabs 456 million.
3)give each arabd one piece of falafel(look it up)
4)tell each arab to throw that falafel on israel.
5) israel would be in deep humus(look it up again, hint falfel and humus go hand in hand)
6) go grow yourself and independent opinion rather than relying to what's given to you.

Millions of americans lived in wars from 1904 to today....so whats your point ?

besides making me hungry ?

 

[Sage]

it's something that you have not experienced and have no right in giving an opinion about.

Oh boy, I guess this whole thread is useless, since none of use have lived through war. Hell, why have opinions at all? I guess I can’t have an opinion about politics unless I’ve been a politician, huh? Sh**, I guess I have to be a mindless drone until someone elects me…

Seriously, you’ve said nothing constructive, except for stating the obvious that war is bad. Please don’t muddle my thread with condescending attacks; Dan and Famine are not idiots, contrary to whatever you might think.

 

[Famine]

guess what, the lebanese goverment does not have an american frien like israel and they are biting the bullet.

And that has what to do with the point?

I'll remind you that the point was that Lebanon sponsor and validate paramilitary assaults from within their borders on another nation, in contravention of a treaty they signed with a third country. This makes them responsible AND culpable, and likely to be attacked by either, or both.

This has nothing to do with the US or whether I've lived through a war.

do i have to breast feed it to you.

I like breasts.

figure it out on your own.

How is it hypocritical to suggest that aggressive and illegal militant activity against a country is liable to attract reprisals from that country?

It was a totally random comment. But you have an R in your name so you can't talk about eating custard. Have you ever lived in custard, eh? No, thought not.

 

[Touring Mars]

Hizbollah and other terrorist organisations are indeed the ones to blame for provoking Israel into action that I'm sure they would rather not be taking... however, it doesn't take a great leap of the imagination to think that Hizbollah can and do act outwith the remit and without the permission/agreement of the government/people of Lebanon... Yes, Israel are quite right to point out the fact that the Lebanese government are responsible for reining in the terrorists, but Israel (and everyone else) must realise the reality of the situation - which is that doing this is far easier said than done.... One sure-fire way of increasing resentment against Israel and hence exacerbating the situation further is by responding to terrorist provokation in a disproportionate and legally dubious manner. Just as with the Palestinian Authority and Israel's demands that they rein in Hamas, Israel have to atleast give them a chance of being able to meet their demands before destroying the country's infrastructure - you have to ask yourself what it is that Israel seeks to gain by turning Lebanon into another failed state right on it's own door step...

 

[a6m5]

As far as I know, Israel didn't give Lebanese a chance. If Israel asked for cooperation in the beginning like in one of my examples in my post earlier, it would've been a different story.

I think Touring Mars is right about this assault by Israel turning Lebanese against them. ABC were showing interviews of Lebanese civilians on the TV tonight. All these people see is Israeli blowing up their town. They kept telling the reporter that they are not the Hezbollah and wanted ISD to stop attacking them.

If it indeed was Israel's plan to pressure Lebanese into turning against Hezbollah as some suggested earlier, looks like it had an opposite effect.

 

[Famine]

As far as I know, Israel didn't give Lebanese a chance. If Israel asked for cooperation in the beginning like in one of my examples in my post earlier, it would've been a different story.

Lebanon do not recognise the Israeli state.

 

[a6m5]

Lebanon do not recognise the Israeli state.

Holy crap, I didn't know that. They do have history though, don't they? Now that I think about it, it doesn't surprise me too much.

Edit: Your avatar is so intimidating, it gives me a headache!

 

[Touring Mars]

Lebanon do not recognise the Israeli state.

Interesting that this is occuring at the same time as President Abbas of the Palestinian Authority has made large strides towards having Palestine recognise Israel's right to exist... doubtless it is no coincidence that extremists such Hamas and Hizbollah are seeking to destabilise the peace process (such as it is) at this particular juncture...

edit: Just heard the 'overheard' conversation between Bush and Blair at the G8 summit where Bush is heard saying, amongst other things, "We're not blaming Israel and we're not blaming the Lebanese government" - interesting.

 

[95GTIVR6]

edit: Just heard the 'overheard' conversation between Bush and Blair at the G8 summit where Bush is heard saying, amongst other things, "We're not blaming Israel and we're not blaming the Lebanese government" - interesting.

...as did I. And Americans wonder why Geroge W. is hated among the international community. > GWB

 

[Touring Mars]

I don't know - on the BBC website (where I saw the clip), Bush is criticised by a Lebanese journalist who is dismayed by his tone and general demeanour and the levity (or rather the lack of gravitas) with which Bush and Blair are discussing a very serious situation - but in actual fact, she makes no comment about what Bush is actually saying, which in my opinion is just about bang on. Also, I don't think Blair is showing any disrespect to anyone... World leaders have to be able to discuss these things in a relaxed and non-emotive manner.... and although this is indeed a very serious situation, and Lebanon has been forced to the top of the agenda, there are still plenty of other extremely pressing issues that the G8 have to address - the fact that Bush and Blair are discussing this in their 'down time' is, in my view, a sign that they are taking the situation seriously, whether or not Bush said the word '****' or not, or if he talks with his mouth full...

 

[KSaiyu]

Man I'm good. Funny AND poignant.

If you don't want to be treated like a child, try to avoid sounding like one. It's not like these are personal attacks (well, maybe just ever-so-slightly). They're exaggerations of bad arguments you're making. They're mockery, which, when last I checked, was still a valid way to get a point across.

Yeah, definite exaggerations of my "bad arguments" (Just because I don't agree, doesn't make them bad)

Murderous bloodthirsty idiots who can't see past their own hatred for Arabs. Clearly if 500 civilians were killed, it means that Israel hates arabs.

And like you said, if they were that then a lot more would be dead.

You're right KSaiyu, you're a lot smarter than the Israeli military.

Yeah ok. I remember saying I was a lot smarter than them.

It's too bad you're not in charge over there because you would have prevented all of the violence. They needs someone of your massive intellect in control so that there can finally be peace between the oppressed Arabs and the muderous bloodthirsty Jewish retards.

My arguments must be **** if you got that from it.

Civil war vs. all-out war with a nuclear superpower.

Not a tough choice.

Hezb'Allah make up less than a fifth of the parliamentary seats. Lebanon are now paying for a minority of their citizens' beliefs and a weak government.

The people shouldn't even be faced with all out war because the government is too weak to do anything, plus the fact that Hezbollah are fellow Shia muslims which would cause more trouble if they started fighting one another.

Back to the issue and they're STILL bombing the hell out of Lebanon - as I asked before, what is this going to accomplish? Now they've even hit (a DIRECT hit so this wasn't collateral) a Lebanese army base - the same people who a few days ago they were trying to get to support their cause in getting rid of Hezbollah!

The latest numbers (sorry danoff but they are relevant) are 219 killed, with 13 of them being confirmed terrorists. Now I may not be the smartest one here, but surely the bloody facts speak for themselves, or I suppose that these 219 civilians were just collateral damage in order to defend Israel who, in the past week have suffered 12 civilian deaths and 12 militia casualties.

It's obvious that this isn't solving the problem, yet they continue to do it and are ALLOWED to do it. To me it's just another piss-take for muslims, and it's only going to lead to more destruction. Why not try and either negotiate, OR go after the root of the problem in Syria and Iran - they're where Hezbollah originates and is fed by, not the Lebanese who can't even fight back. Lebanons government is too weak to stand up to Hezbollah, why should they be punished so Israel can get their point across.

 

[Famine]

Why not try and either negotiate, OR go after the root of the problem in Syria and Iran - they're where Hezbollah originates and is fed by, not the Lebanese who can't even fight back. Lebanons government is too weak to stand up to Hezbollah, why should they be punished so Israel can get their point across.

The Lebanese government IS Hezb'Allah - their political wing are responsible for, amongst other things, Lebanon's hospitals and roads - the two are inseperable, just as Afghanistan's government was inseperable from the Taliban, Iraq's government was inseperable from the Ba'athists and Germany's government was inseperable from the Nazis. Should we not have "punished" those countries for electing violent megalomaniacs?

Out of interest, how do you negotiate with states who refuse to recognise your legal existence and firmly state that their main goal of their foreign policy is your complete destruction?

Now they've even hit (a DIRECT hit so this wasn't collateral) a Lebanese army base

Apropos of this, the USAput a tomahawk into a Chinese Embassy a couple of years back. It was a DIRECT hit, but wasn't the intended target = collateral damage.

 

[KSaiyu]

The problem is the Lebanese people think they are there to safeguard them from Israel and stand up against the "invading jews" (which is what they think they are doing now), when in fact Hizbollah just wants to operate inside Lebanon and demolish Israel. Demolishing towns and army bases will only increase backing with Hizbollah and possibly Iran and Syria, this isn't productive from Israel and is pointless apart from tearing apart the country.

 

[Famine]

Hizbollah just wants to operate inside Lebanon

Except that the Lebanese government signed an agreement, in 1989, that doesn't ALLOW Hezb'Allah to operate inside Lebanon.


The Lebanese government is wholly to blame for the current situation. They have a component which is the political wing of a paramilitary group, lending credence to the group, they refuse to disband the paramilitary group in contravention of their OWN peace treaty with Syria and they allow the paramilitary group to operate strikes against other nations from their territory.

The purpose of a government is to serve the people. Hezb'Allah represent a tiny minority of the Lebanese people and yet their government is allowing the group to pull them into a war with a nuclear superpower.

It'd be easy for the Lebanese government to end this NOW, by recognising Hezb'Allah as a terrorist organisation, banning their members from holding office and actually using their army, as they've agreed under the Taif Agreement, to round up and imprison/kill members of the organisaion. Then Israel would have absolutely no need to strike another country to protect its borders from a group which the other country should not allow to operate...


Edit: In fact Israel have now stated that they will stop as soon as their soldiers are handed back, the missile strikes on their towns by Hezb'Allah stop and the Lebanese Army is deployed in southern Lebanon, as agreed by Lebanon in the terms of the Taif Agreement. Hezb'Allah, obviously keen to protect their people from Israeli reprisals, have rejected any possibility of a ceasefire.

 

[KSaiyu]

Except that the Lebanese government signed an agreement, in 1989, that doesn't ALLOW Hezb'Allah to operate inside Lebanon.

The Lebanese government is wholly to blame for the current situation. They have a component which is the political wing of a paramilitary group, lending credence to the group, they refuse to disband the paramilitary group in contravention of their OWN peace treaty with Syria and they allow the paramilitary group to operate strikes against other nations from their territory.

True they brought upon themselves by not following up with Syrian withdrawals, and yes some of the people do support Hezbollah operating there in contravention of resolution 1559, but how will bombing the hell out of the country bring about any progress? Is their aim to try and scare the government into facing Hezbollah, no matter what the cost? I just think there are better ways than causing so many innocent deaths and they don't want to try anything else. Releasing some of the prisoners (which I believe is no different than the terrorists kidnapping the 2 soldiers) could ease the tension, although I still think they should be looking at Iran and Syria to try and stop Hizbollah instead of this bombing of civilians (like I said in another post, targetted or not, this is the REAL effect of this campaign so far).

 

[Famine]

True they brought upon themselves by not following up with Syrian withdrawals, and yes some of the people do support Hezbollah operating there in contravention of resolution 1559, but how will bombing the hell out of the country bring about any progress? Is their aim to try and scare the government into facing Hezbollah, no matter what the cost? I just think there are better ways than causing so many innocent deaths and they don't want to try anything else. Releasing some of the prisoners (which I believe is no different than the terrorists kidnapping the 2 soldiers) could ease the tension, although I still think they should be looking at Iran and Syria to try and stop Hizbollah instead of this bombing of civilians (like I said in another post, targetted or not, this is the REAL effect of this campaign so far).

Hezb'Allah are not carrying out operations against Israel from bases in Iran or Syria. Iran and Syria have not, recently, committed any acts of aggression against Israel.

Hezb'Allah ARE carrying out operations against Israel from bases in Lebanon. They are supported by Lebanon, so Lebanon have committed acts of aggression against Israel.

Attacking Iran or Syria in the same way as they're attacking Lebanon has almost no grounds.


So, now we've established that the Lebanese government, through its refusal to comply with its own treaty and unwillingness to prevent strikes by its citizens in the guise of a military outfit, are responsible for the attacks by Israel on targets within Lebanon.


Now, who is responsible for the civilian deaths? The terrorists are - through their use of civilian facilities.
Armed forces have their own ports, airstrips, power and petrol supplies so in a conventional war scenario they are easy to target without causing civilian casualties. They even have their own barracks. The purpose of armies is to protect their people, and by placing their facilities away from populated areas they can do this even in defeat. Terrorists, however, use civilian ports, airstrips, power and petrol supplies, and live in amongst the people. This means that targetting them inevitably brings loss of civilian life and this something many of us find distasteful, and exactly what the terrorists hope will protect them - our unwillingness to take the innocent down with the guilty. They have no interest in protecting their people at all - they only want to kill other people and survive, at the expense of anyone else, to keep on killing.


Israel's actions are justifiable, Lebanon is responsible for their attacks and Hezb'Allah are responsible for any civilian casualties.