Israel and Lebanon

[KSaiyu]

It's hardly likely I support Hizbollah is it? Just because I support Lebanon and Palestine doesn't mean I want to see them hurling rockets at innocent civilians.

 

[Danoff]

Of course they're consequential, especially in this instance. We're talking about unnarmed families for the most part, it won't matter to relatives or the general Lebanese if it was collateral or not, Israel has the power to stop it and it should be encouraged to.

Do you see a distinction between the "civilians" Israel has reportedly killed and the civilians killed by terrorism?

 

[KSaiyu]

No, which is the whole point why I started arguing in this thread, it seems the world has forgotten that civilians inside a nation corrupted by terrorism are no different from the civilians killed by terrorism. It seems you're the one who might see a difference between them since you used civilians in quotation when reffering to victims of Israel and the words "reportedly killed"; I don't know how many more facts (not made up by me, you can search on the net) you need to see.

 

[Swift]

It's hardly likely I support Hizbollah is it? Just because I support Lebanon and Palestine doesn't mean I want to see them hurling rockets at innocent civilians.

You undestand that Hezbollah is PART of the Lebanese government...right? So yeah, you are supporting Hezbollah.

 

[ledhed]

No, which is the whole point why I started arguing in this thread, it seems the world has forgotten that civilians inside a nation corrupted by terrorism are no different from the civilians killed by terrorism. It seems you're the one who might see a difference between them since you used civilians in quotation when reffering to victims of Israel and the words "reportedly killed"; I don't know how many more facts (not made up by me, you can search on the net) you need to see.

Hezbolla is just as responsible for the death of Lebanese civilians as the Israeli's and yet I only see you condemning Israel . Why does hezbolla hide among the civilian population and fire rockets from civilian ( or Hezbolla ) homes ? Is it so they can show pictures of propaganda of blown up houses when counter fire flattens them ..or is it because houses make good firing platforms for rockets and missiles ?

You seem extremely gullable . Support Palestine and lebenon all you like ..but at least open your eyes and stop doing it blindly..you are doing more harm than good to your cause .

You cant ignore the fact that hezbolla not only was the agressor but has escalated their attacks steadily and has done so while hiding among the civilian population of lebenon.

 

[Danoff]

No, which is the whole point why I started arguing in this thread, it seems the world has forgotten that civilians inside a nation corrupted by terrorism are no different from the civilians killed by terrorism.

I'll reiterate, what matters is not that they're dead as much as how and why they died. Terrorism is far more unforgivable than accidental deaths. Even if Israel were aware that they were going to kill civilians, but did so anyway in an attempt to kill terrorists the end result is different.

One dead body does not equal one dead body.

One dead innocent person killed by a terrorist targeting that person is not the same thing as a dead person killed by someone targeting someone else. One dead person during peactime is not the same as a dead person during wartime. One dead person resulting from an unprovoked attack is not the same thing as a dead person resulting from a provoked attack.

I recognize that you'd like to pretend that they're all the same. I recognize that you'd like to act as though the prisoners in Israel (note the use of the word prisoner rather than kidnapped soldier) are the same as the kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon. You'd like to pretend that Israeli children killed by rocket attacks targeting them at school are the same thing as Lebanese civilians killed by a bomb targeting terrorist headquarters. You'd like to pretend that a surprise attack on a shopping mall is the same as an announced attack on terrorist headquarters, or even an unannoucned attack on a power station. That way you could take the number of dead Israelis and line them up against the number of dead Lebanese and determine who the bad guy is.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the world isn't that blind to circumstances and motives. I suppose to you, accidentally causing a car accident that kills a family is the same as showing up at that family's house and shooting them all.

 

[KSaiyu]

You undestand that Hezbollah is PART of the Lebanese government...right? So yeah, you are supporting Hezbollah.

Please, I know actual Lebanese people who don't support Hezbollah, so no, I'm not supporting Hezbollah.

hezbolla is just as responsible for the death of Lebanese civilians as the Israeli's and yet I only see you condemning Israel .

Do you really need me to condemn them, do you really think they are prepared to think about the damage they are doing to Lebanon? As I laid out earlier they are just USING Lebanon for their own agenda with Israel and masquerading as their protectors.

Why does hezbolla hide among the civilian population and fire rockets from civiliabn ( or Hezbolla ) homes ? Is it so they can show pictures of propaganda of blow up houses when counter fire flattens them ..or is it because houses make good firing platforms for rockets and missiles ?

You and I both know the answer to that, I don't understand where that came from.

You seem extremely gullable .

How?

Support Palestine and lebenon all you like ..but at least open your eyes and stop doing it blindly..you are doing more harm than good to your cause .

If I was doing it blindly I'd be chanting out "death to Israel" and not giving a damn about civilian deaths, but you don't see me doing that....wonder why. I don't understand what harm I'm doing to my cause either by debating against people who support what Israel is continuing to do.

 

[Swift]

Please, I know actual Lebanese people who don't support Hezbollah, so no, I'm not supporting Hezbollah.

Yeah, you really are. But whatever.

You seem to think that for some reason Israel should just talk it out. That's such incredible garbage. As Famine said, most of the nations don't even recognize Isreal. So, how do you negotiate with an enemy that doesn't think you should exist?

How about you talk about how horrible the rocket attacks on north Israel are or the dead Israelis from those attacks. Nope, let's just focus on the retaliation towards a country that knowingly harbors the people that are KILLING your citizens.

Your one sided view of the "victims" is rather sickening. As I said before, I don't like death, but terrorism is worse.

 

[KSaiyu]

bloody hell what did I get myself into....

I'll reiterate, what matters is not that they're dead as much as how and why they died. Terrorism is far more unforgivable than accidental deaths. Even if Israel were aware that they were going to kill civilians, but did so anyway in an attempt to kill terrorists the end result is different.

I'll agree on the first part to an extent, although I definetly am against what you end up saying there.

I recognize that you'd like to pretend that they're all the same. I recognize that you'd like to act as though the prisoners in Israel (note the use of the word prisoner rather than kidnapped soldier) are the same as the kidnapped soldiers in Lebanon.

I don't pretend they're all the same in every instance, and if you want me to say kidnapped civilian instead of prisoner then I can if you want.

You'd like to pretend that Israeli children killed by rocket attacks targeting them at school are the same thing as Lebanese civilians killed by a bomb targeting terrorist headquarters.

But they're not just targeting terrorist headquarters are they? Therein lies the difference, it's not all black and white.

You'd like to pretend that a surprise attack on a shopping mall is the same as an announced attack on terrorist headquarters, or even an unannoucned attack on a power station. That way you could take the number of dead Israelis and line them up against the number of dead Lebanese and determine who the bad guy is.

No, but I will say that this CONTINUED bombing campaign is the same as what the terrorists are doing firing rockets into Israel. There's just too many civilian casualties to blow it off as collateral damage, too unproportianate to be justified as a tactical retaliation.

Fortunately for the rest of us, the world isn't that blind to circumstances and motives.

I fail to see how these circumstances are justified. Defend yes, but not taking it this far.

I suppose to you, accidentally causing a car accident that kills a family is the same as showing up at that family's house and shooting them all.

Yeah, OK mate.

 

[ledhed]

What does Israel have to gain by attacking hezbolla ?

A secure Northern border and Cities safe from terrorist rockets and missiles landing in them .

What does hezbolla have to gain by kidnapping Israeli soldiers and targeting its cities and civilians with rockets and missiles while hiding among civilians in Lebenon ?

The death of Isralis and attention to their cause of wiping Israel off the map . The possible consolidation of their power in southern Lebenon...if israel doesnt kill them all ...and what ?

WTF do they gain ? Why did they attack ? What are they hoping for ?
Is it anything good to a rational human being ?

Answer that one hot shot . Defend them some more . defend lebenon for doing nothing while they let a militia run wild and turn their country into a war zone . Then complain about israel doing what they have to do to protect themselves .

IT CANT BE DONE . No reasonable person will accept it .

 

[KSaiyu]

Yeah, you really are. But whatever.

OK, I really am, same as those Lebanese who actually are living through this campaign, or the Lebanese who live in this Country that I know are really supporting Hezbollah. But "whatever".

You seem to think that for some reason Israel should just talk it out. That's such incredible garbage. As Famine said, most of the nations don't even recognize Isreal. So, how do you negotiate with an enemy that doesn't think you should exists.

Hell, I'm not for just talking, I've told you they should be more restrained and try and find another way that will actually solve the problem, not just carry on bombing the country into hell in the vain hope that the terrorists give up. You yourself (or someone else) said, why would the terrorists care what happens to the Lebanese, they'll just carry on sending missiles regardless, all the while Beirut burns down and more civilians die.

How about you talk about how horrible the rocket attacks on north Israel are or the dead Israelis from those attacks. Nope, let's just focus on the retalition towards a country that knowingly harbors the people that are KILLING your citizens.

What do you want me to say, you watch the news and Israel is retaliating to it, just not finding a solution. It's revenge being taken too far, simple as that.

Your one sided view of the "victims" is rather sickening. As I said before, I don't like death, but terrorism is worse.

lol, I dunno what you want me to say, I'm one sided because I'm arguing about the effects of Israel's bombing campaign? Sorry if I sicken you

 

[Swift]

Yeah, what ledhed said.

What do you want me to say, you watch the news and Israel is retaliating to it, just not finding a solution. It's revenge being taken too far, simple as that.

it's pretty equal actually. They are going to neutralize the threat. And it's not as indiscriminant, random and vengeful as you say. Israel has laid out terms for a cease fire and neither the Lebonese government or Hezbolah has responded.

lol, I dunno what you want me to say, I'm one sided because I'm arguing about the effects of Israel's bombing campaign? Sorry if I sicken you

It sickens me that you don't talk about the effects of Hezbolah's rocket campaign and kidnapping towards Israel.

 

[KSaiyu]

OK last bloody post for a while.

What does Israel have to gain by attacking hezbolla ?

A secure Northern border and Cities safe from terrorist rockets and missiles landing in them .

Makes sense to me, I won't argue with that.

What does hezbolla have to gain by kidnapping Israeli soldiers and targeting its cities and civilians with rockets and missiles while hiding among civilians in Lebenon ?

The death of Isralis and attention to their cause of wiping Israel off the map . The possible consolidation of their power in southern Lebenon...if israel doesnt kill them all ...and what ?

We already know this

WTF do they gain ? Why did they attack ? What are they hoping for ?
Is it anything good to a rational human being ?

Who gain, who attack, I don't understand what you're getting at?

Answer that one hot shot . Defend them some more . defend lebenon for doing nothing while they let a militia run wild and turn their country into a war zone . Then complain about israel doing what they have to do to protect themselves .

So I should just accept that the Lebanese had this coming, even if they're peaceful people much like the Israelis in Haifa, and let them tear down them, their family and their homes because of the week Lebanese government? I'm complaining, if you hadn't seen before both about Israel's bloodthirstiness AND the governments responsibility to act. Why the people should suffer I don't know, but I suppose you'll tie it down to it being a democratic country and all.

IT CANT BE DONE . No reasonable person will accept it .

No, see a reasonable person would see that Israel isn't entirely bloody blameless and accept that it holds responsiblity as well as Hezbollah
________________________________

 

[KSaiyu]

K THIS is the last post for a bit

Yeah, what ledhed said.

it's pretty equal actually. They are going to neutralize the threat. And it's not as indiscriminant, random and vengeful as you say. Israel has laid out terms for a cease fire and neither the Lebonese government or Hezbolah has responded.

Hell if they did neutralize the threat I'd be all for it, but that isn't whats happening right now no matter what their intentions are. You mention the cease fire - have you read the terms and REALLY expect Hezbollah to give them back the soldiers for nothing and to give up south lebanon. If you then say "well they don't have a choice then" you're right, except there are other ways to get rid of the threat.

It sickens me that you don't talk about the effects of Hezbolah's rocket campaign and kidnapping towards Israel.

What do you want me to say? I think it's ridiculous that Israel has to endure this from the Palestinians as well, but I think it's "sickening" that people are fine for Israel to flatten Lebanon and think they are justified in doing so.

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't know how many more facts (not made up by me, you can search on the net) you need to see.

You are right.

Just to give a few.

WWI civilian deaths: 6,644,725
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
WWII civilian deaths: 32,326,600
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country
Vietnam War civilian deaths:
Cambodia: ~1,500,000 Killed
Laos: ~500,000 Killed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties

It happens. Now does that make every allied country in these wars bad or wrong? No. You make it sound like Israel is horrible for this. Israel is not targetting civilians, Hezbollah is. The civilian deaths that Israel is responsible for are the natural result of war.


And to be honest, when this first started I thought Israel had overreacted as well when it was two soldiers after putting up with much worse stuff all this time. I changed my mind when Lebanon's response to Israel was, we are not familiar with Hezbollah. They had to be joking, two members of Hezbollah are on their cabinet and Israel has been asking them for years to remove them with Lebanon saying that it is Israel's problem.

Well, now it is Lebanon's problem. Israel must cripple Hezballoh in order to stop them, it is simple military strategy to cut off power and supply lines. Since Lebanon hasn't even tried to do anything about Hezbollah they now must deal with the fact that crippling Hezbollah means crippling Lebanon. And if someone happens to live next to the house Hezbollah is using then I am sympathetic, but stuff happens. Maybe you should ask your government why they were allowed to take up shop in a residential area.

 

[Swift]

K THIS is the last post for a bit

For when you come back

Hell if they did neutralize the threat I'd be all for it, but that isn't whats happening right now no matter what their intentions are. You mention the cease fire - have you read the terms and REALLY expect Hezbollah to give them back the soldiers for nothing and to give up south lebanon. If you then say "well they don't have a choice then" you're right, except there are other ways to get rid of the threat.

What do you call taking out the infrastructure of the enemy? That is the very definition of neutralize in wartime.

What do you want me to say? I think it's ridiculous that Israel has to endure this from the Palestinians as well, but I think it's "sickening" that people are fine for Israel to flatten Lebanon and think they are justified in doing so.

I want you to acknowledge that Israel didn't start it, has taking many civilian casualties from Hazbalah and that the Lebonese government is directly to blame for not following through with treaties they agreed to. That's what I want you to say.

FK: Well said 👍

 

[Danoff]

...I will say that this CONTINUED bombing campaign is the same as what the terrorists are doing firing rockets into Israel.

If the continued bombing campaign were targeting schools, hospitals, shopping malls, markets, etc. then maybe you'd have a point. Until then, it simply isn't the same, and I think you understand my reasoning on that perfectly.


Edit: BTW, my point about the word "prisoner" (which is used to describe the Arabs that Israel has captive) and "kidnapped soldiers" (which is used to describe the Israelis that the Arabs have captive) is that they don't mean the same thing. A "prisoner" is someone in custody for alleged wrongdoing, like "we caught this guy trying to blow up civilians on our land". A "kidnapped soldier" is someone in custody for no wrong doing, like "we crossed into someone else's land and grabbed a guy who wasn't doing anything to us". Big difference there.

 

[KSaiyu]

To Foolkiller: Yes, it is unfortunate for the amount of civilian deaths sustained in those wars, but I'm trying to argue that this bombardment is really accomplishing anything in regard to getting rid of Hezbollah. Missile attacks are continuing unabated into Israel, while the Lebanese have to suffer the bombing campaign for their government's inaduquacies. The fact that so little militants have been killed by Israel makes the whole thing worse.

To Swift: I'll acknowledge all that, and I'll also continue to feel that this has spiralled into merciless bombing by the Israelis that will continue regardless of the fact that all it's doing is killing Lebanese and failing to stop terrorist attacks. If I'm honest, I think this is going to lead to MORE terror campaigns against Israel in the future, particularly from Shia muslims - much like what the campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq have done for the "western" world.

To Danoff: In fact they are targeting schools and hospitals at the least, although I will concede they were hezbollah controlled. Also the point about the prisoners is that Lebanon and Palestine have innocent civilians (along with a lot of terrorists, don't get me wrong) being held in Israeli jails, yet they seem to not hold the same "status" as the innocent soldiers held by Hezbollah. Notice I'm NOT condoning this.

P.S. Do debates usually last this long on gtp....

 

[Swift]

To Swift: I'll acknowledge all that, and I'll also continue to feel that this has spiralled into merciless bombing by the Israelis that will continue regardless of the fact that all it's doing is killing Lebanese and failing to stop terrorist attacks. If I'm honest, I think this is going to lead to MORE terror campaigns against Israel in the future, particularly from Shia muslims - much like what the campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq have done for the "western" world.

Well then they're doing the right thing. The USA hasn't suffered a major terrorist attack since we went into Afganastan and Iraq. So from that point of view, Israel is doing the right thing. And you CAN'T call the bombings merciless when they are going after specific military/hezbollah targets.

OH, as for the length of debates, check the creation vs evolution thread

 

[a6m5]

Were not the people of London, Coventry and Sheffield held accountable by the Nazis? The people of Dresden by the Allies. The people of Hiroshima?
[/color][/b]

Actually, those examples are considered war crimes. Of course, if your country won the war, then you are off the hook.

TM,

The argument that Israel is engaging in "collective punishment" is a weak one at best. Do you honestly believe that Israel is not pursuing terrorists and is simply trying to kill Lebanese?

Bombing highway and public airport in selfdefense to stop the terrorists sounds weaker. It indeed does look like Israel wants to scare the Lebanese civilians.

Yeah, you really are. But whatever.

Can you show me where? I've read many of his posts, but I must've missed where KSaiyu is actually supporting Hezbollah. I was under the impression that he was against the terrorism.

What does Israel have to gain by attacking hezbolla ?

A secure Northern border and Cities safe from terrorist rockets and missiles landing in them .

What does hezbolla have to gain by kidnapping Israeli soldiers and targeting its cities and civilians with rockets and missiles while hiding among civilians in Lebenon ?

The death of Isralis and attention to their cause of wiping Israel off the map . The possible consolidation of their power in southern Lebenon...if israel doesnt kill them all ...and what ?

WTF do they gain ? Why did they attack ? What are they hoping for ?
Is it anything good to a rational human being ?

I agree with your take on Israel.
Your question on Hezbollah again:

What does hezbolla have to gain by kidnapping Israeli soldiers and targeting its cities and civilians with rockets and missiles while hiding among civilians in Lebenon ?

By kidnapping, they hoped to exchange for their captured. They are shooting up Israeli towns in response to ISD's attack on Lebanon.

Answer that one hot shot . Defend them some more . defend lebenon for doing nothing while they let a militia run wild and turn their country into a war zone . Then complain about israel doing what they have to do to protect themselves .

Don't take this discussion so personally, ledhed. It's not like we are saying Israel shouldn't strike back, or we are supporters of any terrorist group(according to Swift, KSaiyu is, but I don't know). You say Lebanon let militia run wild in their country like they are the only one doing it. Let's say there were powerful militia and terrorist group where you live, and you hold a political office. Would you be so tough against them when even in your own government, there are few members of that group, spies? They can bomb your car on your way to lunch. They can gun down your kids. What Israel did was give more power to Hezbollah. I would say that Lebanon right now is a very dangerous country for anybody anti-terrorist to operate in. Even more so than before.

It sickens me that you don't talk about the effects of Hezbolah's rocket campaign and kidnapping towards Israel.

Attack in Lebanon is done by a official military under the order of Israeli government. Rocket attack towards Israeli towns are by the terrorists. It is sickening what these bastards do. If I had one of those "easy buttons"(from the "Staples" commercials) to kill every single terrorists in the world, I would push it without giving it a second thought. But the bottomline is, we are not talking about the Israeli damage, because attack on Israel by terrorists are nothing new. Trust me, we are all tired of terrorist attack on Israel and want it to end as soon as possible.

I changed my mind when Lebanon's response to Israel was, we are not familiar with Hezbollah. They had to be joking, two members of Hezbollah are on their cabinet and Israel has been asking them for years to remove them with Lebanon saying that it is Israel's problem.

Could that possibly be a bad translation. Familiar as in not related or something like that?

If the continued bombing campaign were targeting schools, hospitals, shopping malls, markets, etc. then maybe you'd have a point. Until then, it simply isn't the same, and I think you understand my reasoning on that perfectly.

I agree with that. Israel is not targeting civilians, but Hezbollah are.

 

[KSaiyu]

Well then they're doing the right thing. The USA hasn't suffered a major terrorist attack since we went into Afganastan and Iraq. So from that point of view, Israel is doing the right thing. And you CAN'T call the bombings merciless when they are going after specific military/hezbollah targets.

OH, as for the length of debates, check the creation vs evolution thread

I should have included the countries that were bombed as well, and by Western world that was intended to bring up the 7/7 and Spanish attacks which were caused by the stirred up hate of modern muslims. The problem I have with the bombing is that from a spectators view, and from the Lebanese (understandably) themselves, it does come across as merciless seeing as the terrorists could be ANYWHERE in the country, putting ordinary people at risk.

lol, I checked that thread, I don't intend on staying here for 200 pages

 

[Swift]

Can you show me where? I've read many of his posts, but I must've missed where KSaiyu is actually supporting Hezbollah. I was under the impression that he was against the terrorism.

Well, I guess you're right. I must have been blinded by his left wingery.

Attack in Lebanon is done by a official military under the order of Israeli government. Rocket attack towards Israeli towns are by the terrorists. It is sickening what these bastards do. If I had one of those "easy buttons"(from the "Staples" commercials) to kill every single terrorists in the world, I would push it without giving it a second thought. But the bottomline is, we are not talking about the Israeli damage, because attack on Israel by terrorists are nothing new. Trust me, we are all tired of terrorist attack on Israel and want it to end as soon as possible.

The terrorist have a place in the government! How many times do we have to say it?

 

[a6m5]

Well, I guess you're right. I must have been blinded by his left wingery.

I'd like to say it's all good, but it's not really up to me.

The terrorist have a place in the government! How many times do we have to say it?

There is a difference in Lebanese government ordering their armed forces to attack Israel and Hezbollah(a terrorist group) whose "civilian arm" holds 18% of the seats in Lebanese Parliament attacking Israel on their own. It still is a terrorist attack coming out of Lebanon.

 

[Swift]

There is a difference in Lebanese government ordering their armed forces to attack Israel and Hezbollah(a terrorist group) whose "civilian arm" holds 18% of the seats in Lebanese Parliament attacking Israel on their own. It still is a terrorist attack coming out of Lebanon.

The lebonese government KNOWINGLY tolerates the Hezbollah. That makes them responsible. It's not like they're some super secret group operating in the underground.

I should have included the countries that were bombed as well, and by Western world that was intended to bring up the 7/7 and Spanish attacks which were caused by the stirred up hate of modern muslims. The problem I have with the bombing is that from a spectators view, and from the Lebanese (understandably) themselves, it does come across as merciless seeing as the terrorists could be ANYWHERE in the country, putting ordinary people at risk.

It's because the lebonese government ALLOWED them to be there. If they would have at least quarentined them to a specific location it would've been better. It's not Israel's fault that the enemy targets are also military targets. It's just not.

 

[a6m5]

The lebonese government KNOWINGLY tolerates the Hezbollah. That makes them responsible. It's not like they're some super secret group operating in the underground.

I'm going to refer you to the same answer I gave to ledhed:

You say Lebanon let militia run wild in their country like they are the only one doing it. Let's say there were powerful militia and terrorist group where you live, and you hold a political office. Would you be so tough against them when even in your own government, there are few members of that group, spies? They can bomb your car on your way to lunch. They can gun down your kids. What Israel did was give more power to Hezbollah. I would say that Lebanon right now is a very dangerous country for anybody anti-terrorist to operate in. Even more so than before.

I get your point, Swift. And I agree to a certain point, but like I said in my post, I don't think it's that easy for the Lebanese to come down on Hezbollah.

 

[Famine]

(despite agreeing to do exactly that in the Taif Agreement)

Incidentally, you might like to know one other function the political wing of Hezb'Allah are in charge of in Lebanon.



News services.

 

[Swift]

I get your point, Swift. And I agree to a certain point, but like I said in my post, I don't think it's that easy for the Lebanese to come down on Hezbollah.

Why didn't they ask for help from the UN?

 

[Danoff]

Also the point about the prisoners is that Lebanon and Palestine have innocent civilians (along with a lot of terrorists, don't get me wrong) being held in Israeli jails, yet they seem to not hold the same "status" as the innocent soldiers held by Hezbollah. Notice I'm NOT condoning this.

I assume you can cite and example where Israeli soldiers captured a random person from outside of their boarders for no reason and locked them up.... presumably for nothing but the fun of it.

 

[ledhed]

To Foolkiller: Yes, it is unfortunate for the amount of civilian deaths sustained in those wars, but I'm trying to argue that this bombardment is really accomplishing anything in regard to getting rid of Hezbollah. Missile attacks are continuing unabated into Israel, while the Lebanese have to suffer the bombing campaign for their government's inaduquacies. The fact that so little militants have been killed by Israel makes the whole thing worse.

To Swift: I'll acknowledge all that, and I'll also continue to feel that this has spiralled into merciless bombing by the Israelis that will continue regardless of the fact that all it's doing is killing Lebanese and failing to stop terrorist attacks. If I'm honest, I think this is going to lead to MORE terror campaigns against Israel in the future, particularly from Shia muslims - much like what the campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq have done for the "western" world.

To Danoff: In fact they are targeting schools and hospitals at the least, although I will concede they were hezbollah controlled. Also the point about the prisoners is that Lebanon and Palestine have innocent civilians (along with a lot of terrorists, don't get me wrong) being held in Israeli jails, yet they seem to not hold the same "status" as the innocent soldiers held by Hezbollah. Notice I'm NOT condoning this.

P.S. Do debates usually last this long on gtp....

You do not have a CLUE how many hezbolla have been killed ..not a smidgen of a clue.. BUT take this into consideration ...the Israeli fire going into Lebenon is counter battery fire..shells go right back to the spot the rocket or missile was luanched from . So its safe to say if you are standing at the spot the rockets or missile was fired from ...you are either hezbolla or one dumb bucket of spilled guts...now the Israeli 's are using drones and other means of recon to spot the incomming rockets and missiles..so its very easy to not only detect the spot its fired from but to also judge the trajectory as to where it is headed..hezblloa is firing rockets and missiles from civilian houses and from civilian areas to try to camoflage the luanch and in hopes they may live after firing their weapon .
The other strikes into Lebenon are to insure that hezbolla will have a very difficult time of resupply and to insure that when they do move they can be spotted and fired on , this is done by limiting their options for movement so you do not have to watch a large area . targets like the airport and port area's serve the same purpose. Every target is chosen by its importance to the terrorist and its possible use by them .

So if the death toll of Lebenese " civilians " is at 280 ...I would estimate that a third or more are hezbolla and the rest are those that were either around the hezbolla sites that were targeted or in the other area's that the israeli's bombed to deny hezbolla its use.

Israel also warned all those in south Lebenon that were not combatants to leave .

And the FACTS of the very low civilian death toll ..I have seen no one report more than 300 ...yet...Indicates that DESPITE the volume of fire by the Israeli's and the amount of bombings...they are being VERY carefull as to what or who is being targeted.

Contrast the Israeli military with the hezbolla ...they hide among civilians and fire deliberately into civilian area's to kill or wound civilians . They do not come out and confront the military or fire their rockets and missiles into military targets.

You can try all you like to defend the indefensible . You cant , Israel is not only right in what they are doing but they are doing a job that has long needed doing . I only hope they do not stop until hezbolla is finished in lebanon once and for all .

 

[a6m5]

(despite agreeing to do exactly that in the Taif Agreement)

Incidentally, you might like to know one other function the political wing of Hezb'Allah are in charge of in Lebanon.



News services.

That's kind of scary.

Why didn't they ask for help from the UN?

I'm not Lebanese, so I couldn't tell you. But to be honest with you, I doubt the power of the U.N. They try, and it's better than nothing I suppose, but that's about it for me.