Israel and Lebanon

[KSaiyu]

So its safe to say if you are standing at the spot the rockets or missile was fired from ...you are either hezbolla or one dumb bucket of spilled guts...

If you believe that every single missile attack that has killed someone in Lebanon has been a counter-battery strike, you're fine to believe that, just don't accuse the innocent people who have been killed of being "dumb buckets of spilled guts".

You do not have a CLUE how many hezbolla have been killed ..not a smidgen of a clue..

So if the death toll of Lebenese " civilians " is at 280 ...I would estimate that a third or more are hezbolla and the rest are those that were either around the hezbolla sites that were targeted or in the other area's that the israeli's bombed to deny hezbolla its use.

So you can estimate, whereas I have "no CLUE" as to how many hezbollah have been killed, despite at least backing it up with news reports on TV/papers/web. I WILL admit that the civilian/terrorist casualty ratio could be exaggerated due to the nature of the conflict, but I'm sticking with my belief that this is over-excessive and detrimental.

they are being VERY carefull as to what or who is being targeted.

I wish I could believe that, but I don't. Like I said, they're not going out to wipe Lebanon out, but this bombing is being taken too far.

They do not come out and confront the military or fire their rockets and missiles into military targets.

I'm not defending Hizbollah, and the majority of their missiles are fired without regard, but there have been reports of them confronting the Israeli military and targeting them, although this doesn't excuse them in any way, they ARE still terrorists.

[quote[I assume you can cite and example where Israeli soldiers captured a random person from outside of their boarders for no reason and locked them up.... presumably for nothing but the fun of it.[/quote]

This was taken from a documentary about the Palestinians, and how some had been held on suspected terrorism (much like America was/is doing at Guantanemo) and released months, sometimes even years later, while some are still there. I'm NOT saying the jails are chock full of innocent people.

Well, I guess you're right. I must have been blinded by his left wingery.

hahaha, definetly not left wing in the case of British politics - I'm just arguing for the people in Lebanon and against Israel's policy.

 

[Famine]

This was taken from a documentary about the Palestinians, and how some had been held on suspected terrorism (much like America was/is doing at Guantanemo) and released months, sometimes even years later, while some are still there. I'm NOT saying the jails are chock full of innocent people.

The question was whether you have evidence that Israel has gone into another country in order to capture and imprison anyone.

 

[FoolKiller]

Could that possibly be a bad translation. Familiar as in not related or something like that?

Still doesn't work, no matter how you translate it. If they meant connected with, related too, in cahoots with, or whatever it still doesn't work when you make them a recognized political party and have two members on the cabinet.

That would be like the US saying they don't work with Democrats.

 

[ledhed]

I must have already posted a few hundred links and paragraphs showing hezbollah is PART of the Lebenese government and is recognised by Lebenon as a militia .

But go listen to wwhat NPR has to say .

Day to Day, July 13, 2006 · Israel is holding Lebanon's government responsible for Hezbollah's abduction of two Israeli soldiers. How close are the ties between the militant group and the government structure? Lebanese political analyst Amal Saad Ghorayeb and Alex Chadwick discuss the role of Hezbollah in Lebanon's government.

Attacks Could Erode Hezbollah's Role In Lebanon's Government

Posted on Friday, July 14 2006 00:22:21 PDT by Intellpuke
Read 222 times

The radical Shiite movement Hezbollah and its leader, Hasan Nasrallah, hold an effective veto in Lebanese politics, and the group's military prowess has heartened its supporters at home and abroad in the Arab world. Yet that same force of arms has begun to endanger Hezbollah's long-term standing in a country where critics accuse it of dragging Lebanon into an unwinnable conflict the government neither chose nor wants to fight.
"To a certain Arab audience and Arab elite, Nasrallah is a champion, but the price is high," said Walid Jumblatt, a member of parliament and leader of Lebanon's Druze community. "We are paying a high price."

The conflict will likely prove a turning point in the history of the movement, which was created with Iranian patronage in the wake of the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It has since evolved from a terrorist organization blamed for two attacks on the U.S. Embassy and the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, which killed 241 Marines, into a sprawling movement with a member and supporter in Lebanon's cabinet, a militia that effectively controls southern Lebanon, and an infrastructure that delivers welfare to its Shiite constituency, Lebanon's largest community.

In the wake of Syria's withdrawal of its troops from Lebanon in 2005, the disarmament of Hezbollah has emerged as one of the foremost issues in Lebanese politics. Since the fighting with Israel started Wednesday, calls for Hezbollah to relinquish its weapons have gathered urgency. The violence began when Hezbollah fighters captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border incursion, followed by an Israeli attack on roads, bridges, power stations and airports.

Lebanese critics as well as allies of Hezbollah insist that the Israeli response was disproportionate. At the same time, in meetings Thursday, Lebanese officials began to lay the groundwork for an extension of government control to southern Lebanon. Hezbollah largely controls southern Lebanon, where it has built up a network of schools, hospitals and charities.

let me know when it sinks in ...

http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=7596&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Vol. 1 No. 1 February 2006


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hezbollah's Dilemmas
by Rodger Shanahan

Dr. Rodger Shanahan is a visiting research fellow at the Research Institute for Asia and the Pacific, University of Sydney. He is the author of Clans, Parties and Clerics: the Shi'a of Lebanon (2005, IB Tauris).


The advance of Shiite Muslim political empowerment has generated palpable anxiety in the Arab world, echoed by King Abdullah of Jordan's much publicized warning about the emergence of a "Shiite crescent" extending from Iran into the Levant.[1] The violence in Iraq, where majority Shiites now control the key levers of executive and legislative power, illustrates how loathe many non-Shiites are to lose their privileged political status.

In Lebanon, where Shiites are neither a majority large enough to legitimately claim political supremacy, nor a minority small enough to be legitimately overruled on major political issues, the challenges are even more complex.

Lebanon's most popular Shiite political force is the militant Islamist Hezbollah movement,[2] a product of its successful campaign to expel Israeli troops from the country, provision of social services to the Shiite community, and reputation for incorruptibility. The departure of Syrian forces last April has given Hezbollah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah an unprecedented opportunity to convert the movement's popularity into political power. In order to do this, however, Hezbollah will have to resolve three critical dilemmas.

Shiite Political Emancipation

Shiites do not enjoy equality under Lebanon's constitution. Although estimated to comprise up to 40% or more of the population, they are limited to 21% of parliamentary seats and barred from becoming president or prime minister. Hezbollah initially opposed the 1989 Taif Accord because it failed to rectify this imbalance, but grudgingly suspended its calls for equal representation after Syria completed its takeover of Lebanon in 1990. The pullout of Syrian forces and the success of Iraqi Shiites in attaining political power commensurate with their demographic weight have brought the cause of Shiite political emancipation to the forefront of Lebanese politics (if not the forefront of public debate).

However, most Lebanese Christians, Sunnis, and Druze are unwilling to accept any sweeping alteration to the country's confessional power-sharing formula that would favor Shiites. Although Hezbollah long ago abandoned its early aspirations to import Iran's theocratic model into Lebanon, its militant Islamist identity and close relationship with Iran remain unpalatable to the other sectarian groups. In light of these obstacles, a full-fledged Hezbollah campaign to amend the constitution (peaceful or otherwise) would face enormous difficulties.

In the meantime, Hezbollah is faced with the question of how to advance its interests in the political system. It steered a middle path during the Syrian occupation, participating in parliamentary elections while remaining outside of the government. This was not entirely by choice (the Syrians barred Islamists from Lebanon's cabinet, fearing their presence might make the occupation less palatable to the West), but it fitted Hezbollah's needs. The movement's reputation for incorruptibility is derived in part from having remained outside of government for the first twenty-three years of its existence. During the occupation, Hezbollah didn't have to worry that the Lebanese government would act against its interests. With Syrian troops gone, however, this middle path is no longer viable.



Despite its limitations, the current political system still allows Hezbollah to exert powerful influence. Although Shiite representation in parliament is capped, Shiite votes nevertheless count the same as non-Shiite votes, so the community's demographic weight impacts the election of non-Shiites. In the May-June 2005 parliamentary elections, Hezbollah not only increased its parliamentary bloc by leading triumphant coalitions in the predominantly Shiite regions of south Lebanon and Beqaa, but also played the role of kingmaker in closely-contested districts where Shiites are a minority.[3]

After the elections, Hezbollah member Muhammad Fneish joined the Lebanese cabinet as energy minister (and a Shiite close to the movement, Trad Hamadeh, became labor minister). To be considered a serious contender for political power in the new Lebanon, Hezbollah must demonstrate that it can run ministerial portfolios and make the compromises necessary in political alliances.

Full-fledged participation in the political system carries risks. In addition to lending legitimacy to the confessional power-sharing formula, Hezbollah's entrance into government could taint its reputation for probity. The rival Shiite Amal movement started off as a religious movement striving for social justice, but largely abandoned its principles in exchange for political power over the years, growing enormously corrupt (and unpopular) in the process.

Disarmament

The second, related, dilemma faced by Hezbollah concerns the future of its paramilitary apparatus. Hezbollah was exempted from disarmament at the end of the civil war in 1990, partly because Iran and Syria wanted to encourage resistance to Israeli forces occupying south Lebanon and partly as a quid pro quo for the movement's tacit acceptance of the Taif Accord. Hezbollah's war against the Israeli occupation garnered broad support across the sectarian spectrum in Lebanon and admiration throughout the Arab world. Lebanese Shiites, once viewed as marginal to the Arab nationalist cause, clearly relished this spotlight.

The Israeli withdrawal also removed Hezbollah's most compelling rationale for maintaining a powerful paramilitary apparatus. Officially, Hezbollah's position is that it will disarm once Israel has withdrawn from the disputed Shebaa Farms and the Lebanese state is capable of defending the country from Israel. The UN ruled against the Lebanese claim to Shebaa in 2000, and UN Security Council Resolution 1559 called for the disarmament of all militias in Lebanon in 2004.

So long as Syria controlled Lebanon, few public figures were willing to openly criticize Hezbollah's continuing military buildup and periodic cross border operations against Israel, but the withdrawal of Syrian forces last year removed this critical political cover. Since then, most leading Sunni, Christian, and Druze politicians have openly said that Hezbollah must disarm, though they invariably insist that the issue must be resolved through internal dialogue and none have advocated forcibly disarming it.

The vast majority of Shiites, on the other hand, appear to support Hezbollah's refusal to disarm. According to Amal Saad-Ghorayeb, this is because they see its military apparatus as a form of "compensation for Shiite political under-representation."[4] In the absence of sweeping political reforms, Hezbollah will not face significant pressure to demilitarize from its constituents.

Under the present circumstances, any attempt by the new Lebanese government to confront Hezbollah militarily would likely provoke inter-sectarian conflict. Since there is no threat of external intervention to disarm Hezbollah, the movement has little political incentive to give up its weapons - on the contrary, they are a powerful political bargaining chip. Giving up its armed wing before reforms to the electoral laws are achieved would see Hezbollah become just another political party in a system that discriminates against Shiites.

In view of the election of hardliner Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as Iranian president last year, it is unlikely that Tehran will place any pressure on Hezbollah to disarm. As Iran continues its game of nuclear brinkmanship with the West and grows more isolated internationally, an armed Hezbollah will be an ever more important asset. Eventually, Iran's needs are going to conflict with Hezbollah's domestic political goals and the movement will have to decide where its loyalties lie.

Syria

The third dilemma faced by Hezbollah concerns its relations with Syria. Given the tremendous upsurge of anti-Syrian sentiments in Lebanon since the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri in February 2005, many observers expected Nasrallah to distance himself from Damascus. On the contrary, he has resolutely defended Syria, antagonizing Sunni, Druze and Christian political leaders.

Hezbollah's unwavering support for Syrian President Bashar Assad reflects several considerations. Since the porous Syrian-Lebanese border will probably be the only viable route for future Iranian resupply of Hezbollah, a good relationship with Damascus is critical to its fight against Israel. On the local level, Hezbollah continues to see Syria as a useful foil against those elements of Lebanese society that oppose it. While the Syrian presence in Lebanon was widely disliked, the shared history of the two countries and the size of Syria in relation to its smaller neighbor mean that Damascus will always feature strongly in domestic Lebanese affairs. Moreover, there is a degree of religious affinity between Lebanese Shiites and the minority Alawite sect that dominates the Syrian regime.[5]

Hezbollah's defense of Assad also reflects the desires of Iran, which has been a staunch ally of Syria for the past quarter century and has a keen interest in combating its political isolation. By allowing Hezbollah to protest so vociferously in support of Syria, Iran hopes to illustrate to the world that they were wrong in painting Syria as an unwelcome entrant in Lebanese politics.

Hezbollah has taken a political risk by being so supportive of Syria. Because of its firm nationalist credentials, this stance probably won't undermine its support among Lebanese Shiites, but it could interfere with its ability to negotiate compromises with other political groups. Vocal support for Syria at a time when anti-Syrian Lebanese politicians are still being killed (most recently Al-Nahar editor Gibran Tueni on December 12) increases the reservations that non-Shiite politicians have about its military apparatus.


In December, Hezbollah's two government ministers suspended their participation in the government (along with their three Amal colleagues) after Prime Minister Fouad Siniora asked the cabinet to vote on a proposal endorsing the establishment of an international court to try those indicted for Hariri's murder. Their main objection was not that the decision was anti-Syrian, but that it was taken through majority vote rather than consensus (a violation, Hezbollah claimed, of its conditions for joining the government). Once they withdrew, Nasrallah added a second condition for their return - that the cabinet issue a statement declaring Hezbollah to be a national resistance movement, not a militia, and therefore not subject to disarmament under the terms of Resolution 1559.

In early February, Siniora publicly declared that his government will not call Hezbollah "by any name other than the resistance" (skirting the question of whether it is a militia in violation of 1559) and pledged to rule by consensus, after which Hezbollah announced its intention to return to the cabinet. Although it's not clear what concessions Hezbollah made in the seven weeks of negotiations that preceded this announcement, the resolution of Lebanon's cabinet crisis suggests that the movement remains committed to advancing its interests through the political system.

Notes

[1] See "Iraq, Jordan See Threat To Election From Iran; Leaders Warn Against Forming Religious State," The Washington Post, 8 December 2004.
[2] Hezbollah's capacity to mobilize mass demonstrations is unrivaled. Although a Syrian-imposed modus vivendi forced Hezbollah to join 50/50 electoral tickets with the secular Shiite Amal movement in parliamentary elections, it performed substantially better than Amal in the 2004 municipal elections. See Rodger Shanahan, Hizballah Rising: The Political Battle for the Loyalty of the Shi'a of Lebanon, Middle East Review of International Affairs, Vol. 9, No. 1, March 2005.
[3] For example, Hezbollah's endorsement helped Druze leader Walid Jumblatt's coalition narrowly defeat Gen. Michel Aoun's Free Patriotic Movement in Baabda-Aley.
[4] Amal Saad-Ghorayeb, "Hizbullah's arms and Shiite empowerment," The Daily Star (Beirut), 22 August 2005.
[5] The Alawite sect is an offshoot of Shiite Islam. In 1974 the founder of Amal, Musa Sadr (also highly regarded by Hezbollah), attested to the Islamic character of the Alawites. While this was largely seen as a politically astute move at the time, it has nonetheless created an ideological bridge between Lebanese Shiites and the Alawites that does not exist elsewhere.

© 2006 Mideast Monitor. All rights reserved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.mideastmonitor.org/issues/0602/0602_4.htm
\

BEIRUT, July 13 -- The radical Shiite movement Hezbollah and its leader, Hasan Nasrallah, hold an effective veto in Lebanese politics, and the group's military prowess has heartened its supporters at home and abroad in the Arab world. But that same force of arms has begun to endanger Hezbollah's long-term standing in a country where critics accuse it of dragging Lebanon into an unwinnable conflict the government neither chose nor wants to fight.

"To a certain Arab audience and Arab elite, Nasrallah is a champion, but the price is high," said Walid Jumblatt, a member of parliament and leader of Lebanon's Druze community. "We are paying a high price."


Transcript
World Opinion: International Reaction to the Turmoil Middle East
washingtonpost.com staff writer Jefferson Morley discussed international reaction to the widening Middle East conflict in Israel, Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.


Audio
Wilson and Shadid Report from Middle East
The Washington Post's Scott Wilson and Anthony Shadid provide an update on the situation in Israel and Lebanon.


VIDEO | The Washington Post's Anthony Shadid reports from Beirut, Lebanon, about the state of the city and its people Tuesday.

Mideast Conflict
Violence escalates as Israel responds to militant attacks from Gaza, Lebanon.

U.S. Evacuations
Latest Headlines
INTERACTIVE FEATURE
Latest Developments
Interactive map tracks latest headlines, photos and video on the conflict.

PHOTOS
Foreigners Flee
Israeli forces respond with force to militant attacks.

VIDEOS
Reminders of War
Realities of war are heard in Gaza's music, seen in martyr posters and felt in Israel's rocket attacks on the north.

Palestinian Prisoners and Israeli Soldiers
Archives: Disarming Hezbollah
PANORAMAS
Beirut Abandoned
Lebanese residents flee Beirut as foreigners evacuate the country ravaged by bombs.


Live Discussions
Monday, July 17, at noon ET:Live from Syria
Transcriptost Magazine: Is the Israel Lobby Too Powerful?
Transcript :Israeli Offensive Widens
Transcript:World Opinion: International Reaction to the Turmoil Middle East


The conflict will likely prove a turning point in the history of the movement, which was created with Iranian patronage in the wake of the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It has since evolved from a terrorist organization blamed for two attacks on the U.S. Embassy and the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, which killed 241 Marines, into a sprawling movement with a member and supporter in Lebanon's cabinet, a militia that effectively controls southern Lebanon, and an infrastructure that delivers welfare to its Shiite constituency, Lebanon's largest community.

But in the wake of Syria's withdrawal of its troops from Lebanon in 2005, the disarmament of Hezbollah has emerged as one of the foremost issues in Lebanese politics. Since the fighting with Israel started Wednesday, calls for Hezbollah to relinquish its weapons have gathered urgency. The violence began when Hezbollah fighters captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border incursion, followed by an Israeli attack on roads, bridges, power stations and airports.

Lebanese critics as well as allies of Hezbollah insist that the Israeli response was disproportionate. But at the same time, in meetings Thursday, Lebanese officials began to lay the groundwork for an extension of government control to southern Lebanon. Hezbollah largely controls southern Lebanon, where it has built up a network of schools, hospitals and charities.

"To declare war and to make military action must be a decision made by the state and not by a party," said Nabil de Freige, a parliament member. He belongs to the bloc headed by Saad Hariri, whose father, Rafiq, a former prime minister and wealthy businessman, was assassinated in 2005, setting off a sequence of events that forced the Syrian withdrawal. "It's a very simple equation: You have to be a state."

After a cabinet meeting Thursday, the government said it had a right and duty to extend its control over all Lebanese territory. Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat said the statement marked a step toward the government reasserting itself.

Other government officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, went further, calling it a first move in possibly sending the Lebanese army to the border, a U.N.-endorsed proposal that Hezbollah has rejected. The officials described the meeting as stormy and contentious but said both sides -- Hezbollah and its government critics -- were especially wary of public divisions at a time of crisis.

"It is becoming very clear that the state alone must bear responsibility for the country's foreign policy," said Samir Franjieh, a parliament member who is close to the Hariri bloc. "But our problem now is that Israel is taking things so far that if there is no help from the international community, the situation could get out of hand."

The fate of Hezbollah is at the center of Lebanon's sectarian complexity, now more pronounced than perhaps at any time since the 1975-90 civil war. Hezbollah's future is also tied up in regional politics dominated by Syria, Iran and Israel.

Along with Lebanon's president, Emile Lahoud, Hezbollah remains one of Syria's main allies in Lebanon. The governments of Syria and Iran provide Hezbollah with funding and arms, although the countries' influence is a matter of debate. Analysts here say Iranian influence has become ascendant following the Syrian pullout, though foreign policy in the two countries has so far largely overlapped. The United States renewed its call Thursday for those countries to intervene to get the two Israeli soldiers released.

"It's really time for everybody to acknowledge that these two states do have some measure of control over Hezbollah," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters in Washington. "And the international community has called upon them to exercise that control, to have these two individuals released."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301743.html

 

[Vonie]

I usually never go into this forum mostly because I have no opinion. But, I figured that I'd say something here given that I've been in Israel for the past 3 weeks.

That said, I don't have much to say. The group that I was travelling with was in northern Israel a few days before the missiling started, that was lucky. I just got back this morning and I felt perfectly safe during my entire trip. We were also in Jerusalem the day that the suicide bomber was caught.

I'm also glad the the rest of the world is pretty much supporting Israel.

Ok, continue with your using of big words.

 

[Swift]

Vonie, how was the climate of the populous?

 

[Vonie]

Everyone was, of course, worried. But, everything continued as usual in central and southernish Israel, where I was for the last week.

 

[a6m5]

Still doesn't work, no matter how you translate it. If they meant connected with, related too, in cahoots with, or whatever it still doesn't work when you make them a recognized political party and have two members on the cabinet.

That would be like the US saying they don't work with Democrats.

Well, first off, I'm not trying to be anti-Israel here(I think I'm seen as one), but that translation would make a huge difference. Lebanese saying that they are "literally" not familiar with Hezbollah is just silly. But if they meant that they are not familiar with Hezbollah's plans, or the government is not coordinating with Hezbollah, it makes more sense.

I'm not really questioning the relation between Hezbollah and Lebanese government here, just the translation.

I usually never go into this forum mostly because I have no opinion. But, I figured that I'd say something here given that I've been in Israel for the past 3 weeks.

That said, I don't have much to say.

But seriously, we are all very glad you are OK.

 

[Vonie]

That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside.

 

[a6m5]

Well, we definitely need more of that in the Middle East(I wouldn't hold my breath though).

 

[FoolKiller]

The local news this morning had a local college student who was in Beirut as part of his diplomacy degree he was trying to get (he just got back yesterday) and he was talking about how they kept moving away from the fighting until they ended up in the US embassy building but Hezbollah militants kept coming farther into the city, drawing Israeli fire into the city. Whether this was on purpose or not I don't know, but Hezbollah targets were being fired upon inside the city.

Having heard an eyewitness account of a man attending the same school I graduated from I am even more inclined to believe that anyone to be blamed for Lebanese civilian deaths should be Hezbollah themselves as they were running into metropolitan areas that have many civilians.


EDIT: Found the Larry King interview he did last night.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0607/19/lkl.01.html

KING: I'm guessing, Ryan that you've never before in your life been under bombardment. If so, what was it like?

BURNETT: Well, the first day we were probably about three, four miles from the airport and you could still hear the shelling and you could -- you could hear the jets and see the jets.

But then towards the weekend apparently Hezbollah was moving more towards our neighborhood in western Beirut and we saw more and more, you know, Hezbollah flags and Hezbollah trucks driving around.

And then the shelling became closer and closer and then eventually Sunday afternoon our building was beginning to shake from the shelling it was getting so close, so we decided to move to east Beirut and watch from the -- get a hotel actually.

 

[KSaiyu]

I must have already posted a few hundred links and paragraphs showing hezbollah is PART of the Lebenese government and is recognised by Lebenon as a militia .

But go listen to wwhat NPR has to say .

let me know when it sinks in ...

Now when did I deny this? It even says in your first quote that they feel this is a disproportianate response, and judging by the fact that over 50 were killed yesterday alone, they have no intent on stopping soon.

The question was whether you have evidence that Israel has gone into another country in order to capture and imprison anyone.

So we are to believe that it's only Palestinians who are being held on suspected terrorism in Israel?

Here's a link to show just how "controlled" Israel is (check out the video on the right). It also brings up the point of how it is a WAR CRIME to afflict the civilians in this way, whether in Gaza or in Lebanon, even the UN human rights commissioner has said that the scale of the killing could involve war crimes (this includes Hezbollah as well as Israel)

I still believe the answer lies in bringing a ceasefire - which the Lebanese government HAS asked for - and targetting the supply, since EVEN IF these attacks were succesful and scored many hits on hezbollah, they will NOT be short of new recruits from this campaign and will continue to be supplied by Iran and Syria.

The fact that we have to evacuate our citizens out of Lebanon only goes to show just how fast Israel is prepared to drop their bombs - Hezbollah does not care about civilians (the rocket attack killing 2 arab children shows just how much they care), but shouldn't Israel? For the record the figures are 290+ bystanders killed, and around 20 Hezbollah militants - no matter if we can't trust all the Lebanese sources (even though we have journalists who have actually reported from the target zones), we can't be STUPID enough to believe that this bombing is justified when so many civilians are being killed.

 

[Famine]

The question was whether you have evidence that Israel has gone into another country in order to capture and imprison anyone.

So we are to believe that it's only Palestinians who are being held on suspected terrorism in Israel?

I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't phrase the question right. The question was whether you have evidence that Israel has gone into another country in order to capture and imprison anyone, not whether you think Israel, bad guys, think they're above the law, must have done, nudge nudge.

We have evidence that Hezb'Allah, an illegal terrorist organisation that Lebanon keeps forgetting they're supposed to have disbanded and instead let into government, illegally crossed the UN blue line and seized citizens of another country from within their own territory. Is there any evidence that Israel have done the same?

I still believe the answer lies in bringing a ceasefire - which the Lebanese government HAS asked for

You mean like the one the Israelis offered before they attacked and is still on the table, but which Hezb'Allah have rejected? Or like the ones that Hezb'Allah say they will not accept on the Zionists' terms under any circumstances?

Hezbollah does not care about civilians (the rocket attack killing 2 arab children shows just how much they care), but shouldn't Israel?

Why should they? They aren't Israeli citizens.

This notwithstanding, they told everyone in the area and in the entire world that they were going to attack well before they did, and to get out if they didn't want to be injured.

For the record the figures are 290+ bystanders killed, and around 20 Hezbollah militants - no matter if we can't trust all the Lebanese sources (even though we have journalists who have actually reported from the target zones)

You still haven't answered how our journalists can tell a dead terrorist from a dead "bystander".

 

[ledhed]

The people who feel that it is a diproportionate response DO NOT live in Israel and are not the targets of missiles and rockets every day.
israelis and lebenese have a right to judge the response...those sitting in comfort of there room watching the little snippets of news and taliking heads on tv spouting opinions are NOT qualified .

Israel asked that those in Southern Lebenon that were not Hezblooah ...get out ..because they were in danger...hezbollah shows no concern ffor the own people they are SUPPOSED to be defending..they hide among civilians KNOWINGLY putting them in danger.

You are making me ill with your unfounded and naive arguments about the Israeli response . And FOR THE RECORD ..no one has given a casualty count for Hezbollah...for all you KNOW 90 percent of the " civillian" dead could be hezbollah...you just DO NOT know. And the dead civilians that were killed when hezbollah used them for cover are the FAULT of Hezbollah ..not Israel .

For the record the figures are 290+ bystanders killed,

For the record that is horsecrap...they didnt have "bystander" or "hezbollah"
Stamped on their heads ..Hezbollah wears no uniform nor do they carry a union card.

And for the record the "deaths' reported in Lebenon after all this " bombardment and artillery fire and multiple tons of bombs and explosives and all this so called wanton destruction ...is 300 ....WTF is wrong with that fiGure ?


300...is less than the amount of people shot on the streets of Phila in a year.
300...doesnt show anything like a DISPROPORTIONATE response .

It Proves the exact opposite .

 

[FoolKiller]

The fact that we have to evacuate our citizens out of Lebanon only goes to show just how fast Israel is prepared to drop their bombs

Or it is common practice during an armed conflict on foreign soil.

 

[ledhed]

ksaiyu....do you live in an alternative Universe ?

 

[FoolKiller]

ksaiyu....do you live in an alternative Universe ?

No, but I think he is lying about his identity and is actually a professor at UCLA who writes op-ed pieces for the LA Times.

This piece is almost verbatim everything he has been saying.

Ksaiyu, if that isn't you then I would sue for plagiarism.

 

[magburner]

You still haven't answered how our journalists can tell a dead terrorist from a dead "bystander".

Unless otherwise proven, all dead casualties should be assumed to be civillian (unless you know any different), as the number of civillians in Lebanon outweights the number of terrorists by a considerable number.

This can be further proven by the confirmed third of all casualties that were children - Unless you think that Hezbollah has a pre-school/Hezbollah Youth wing of its terrorist organsiation.

 

[Danoff]

Unless otherwise proven, all dead casualties should be assumed to be civillian (unless you know any different), as the number of civillians in Lebanon outweights the number of terrorists by a considerable number.

Yes, and if Israel were launching rockets at random into the region this would be a reasonable approach. But since Israel claims to be targeting terrorists (and claims that they have now cut the terrorist organization's strength in half), we must assume that the number of terrorists in the casualties will be disproportionate w.r.t. the population.

This can be further proven by the confirmed third of all casualties that were children

Citation please.

 

[Swift]

No, but I think he is lying about his identity and is actually a professor at UCLA who writes op-ed pieces for the LA Times.

This piece is almost verbatim everything he has been saying.

Ksaiyu, if that isn't you then I would sue for plagiarism.

Well, since Ksaiyu isn't making money on his argument here, that would be a waste of time for the author.

Nice find though.

 

[magburner]

Yes, and if Israel were launching rockets at random into the region this would be a reasonable approach. But since Israel claims to be targeting terrorists (and claims that they have now cut the terrorist organization's strength in half), we must assume that the number of terrorists in the casualties will be disproportionate w.r.t. the population.

A claim is neither here or there. I can claim that the moon is made of swiss cheese, but without actual proof, all it will ever be is a claim. There is no actual proof that any of the targets Israel is attacking are terrorist facilities, just claims. Every time I make a claim without the evidence to back it up, you ask me to prove it, why should it be any different when it comes to Israel attacking 'suspected' terrorist buildings/infrastructure/bases?

This can be further proven by the confirmed third of all casualties that were children

Citation please.

Sorry, I was a little sloppy with that statement. Watch this video of the 'man' Kofi sayin it like it is:

Kofi Annan calls for Lebanon ceasefire

 

[Danoff]

A claim is neither here or there. I can claim that the moon is made of swiss cheese, but without actual proof, all it will ever be is a claim. There is no actual proof that any of the targets Israel is attacking are terrorist facilities, just claims. Every time I make a claim without the evidence to back it up, you ask me to prove it, why should it be any different when it comes to Israel attacking 'suspected' terrorist buildings/infrastructure/bases?

I'm not saying the claim is true, only you can't make the assumptions you do about the distribution. You can require proof when I state something as fact. In the meantime, I'll point out the flaws in your assumptions.

Sorry, I was a little sloppy with that statement. Watch this video of the 'man' Kofi sayin it like it is:

Kofi Annan calls for Lebanon ceasefire

Thanks.

 

[Famine]

Unless otherwise proven, all dead casualties should be assumed to be civillian (unless you know any different), as the number of civillians in Lebanon outweights the number of terrorists by a considerable number.

Sure, and if you throw knives in the air you should assume that they'd come down on the ground, because the amount of ground outweighs the number of dogs. But if you throw knives at the dog...

This is southern Lebanon - Hezb'Allah's heartland, where they aren't supposed to be, but are - and Israelis are aiming for Hezb'Allah targets. This narrows the gap between civilians and terrorists by quite a bit.

This can be further proven by the confirmed third of all casualties that were children - Unless you think that Hezbollah has a pre-school/Hezbollah Youth wing of its terrorist organsiation.

Yep. They'd never do that.

(Caption: A child unit of Hezbollah group take part in a military parade to mark Al-Quds Day (Jerusalem Day) in a suburb south of Beirut, Lebanon, Friday, Nov. 21, 2003.)

 

[magburner]

This is southern Lebanon - Hezb'Allah's heartland, where they aren't supposed to be, but are - and Israelis are aiming for Hezb'Allah targets. This narrows the gap between civilians and terrorists by quite a bit.

Maybe I miss undersood you there. I assumed you were talking about the whole of Lebanon, as that was what my statement was based on. I'll agree with you that Hezbollah's heartland is in the South of Lebanon. Israel knows that too, so why do they still bomb 'suspected' targets in Beirut and the North?

Are they even Lebanese? I'm sorry, a picture of a group of children dressed in paramilitary gear carrying what seems to be sub-machine guns, is no proof at all. There is nothing in that picture that Identifies those children with Hezbollah, and It's certainly no proof that Hezbollah has a pre-school/Hezbollah Youth wing.

Get me a picture of children dressed in para-military gear, carrying sub-machine guns, fighting on the frontline against Israel, and waving the Hezbollah flag, then I'll concede. Otherwise my argument stands.

 

[Swift]

Maybe I miss undersood you there. I assumed you were talking about the whole of Lebanon, as that was what my statement was based on. I'll agree with you that Hezbollah's heartland is in the South of Lebanon. Israel knows that too, so why do they still bomb 'suspected' targets in Beirut and the North?

As some of the Americans that have come back to the US since the has fighting have stated . "The militants started to move into the cities with more civilians and the Israeli attacks followed." This would lead one to believe that Hezbollah thought that Israel would stop there attacks if they approached the civilian population...unfortunately for the civil population, they were wrong.

 

[Famine]

Are they even Lebanese? I'm sorry, a picture of a group of children dressed in paramilitary gear carrying what seems to be sub-machine guns, is no proof at all. There is nothing in that picture that Identifies those children with Hezbollah, and It's certainly no proof that Hezbollah has a pre-school/Hezbollah Youth wing.

Get me a picture of children dressed in para-military gear, carrying sub-machine guns, fighting on the frontline against Israel, and waving the Hezbollah flag, then I'll concede. Otherwise my argument stands.

A-hahahaha... Priceless.

Okay, I'll explain further.

Where might I get such a picture? What would the origins of the picture be (who took it, from where would I source it)?

Where did I get THAT picture? What would the origins of that picture be (who took it, from where did I source it)?


According to the caption, which I quoted, these were Lebanese children, dressed as Hezb'Allah attending a march, in Beirut, on "Jerusalem Day". The image is credited to AP/Mahmoud Tawil.

I have a few more:

(Reuters: Children dressed as Hizbollah guerrillas march at a parade to celebrate 'Jerusalem Day' in Beirut)

(Ananova: No caption)


Now... I have no reason to doubt that these pictures are what they say they are. I also recognise that they aren't proof of anything - they look more like children dressed as Hezb'Allah, rather than children who ARE Hezb'Allah - but it has been reported in the past that Hezb'Allah have used children as human shields and suicide bombers, appallingly.


I'd also like you to remember, with your avatar and status, the current conflict started because:
1. Lebanon has not disbanded Hezb'Allah in south Lebanon in accordance with the Taif Agreement.
2. Hezb'Allah operated an illegal capture mission from Lebanon across the UN Blue Line into Israel and kidnapped two Israelis.
3. Hezb'Allah, using Lebanon as a base, mounted missile strikes against Israeli territory.

Israel have offered a ceasefire if Lebanon stop the strikes, give back their citizens and disband Hezb'Allah as they said they would 17 years ago but never bothered to make the effort to do - instead inviting them into government. Hezb'Allah reject all overtures at a ceasefire "on Zion's terms", despite the fact that IT started the present conflict.

Israel gave Lebanon warning that it would strike Hezb'Allah targets and to move its innocent citizens from harm's way. Hezb'Allah gave no such warnings and strikes AT Israel's innocent citizens.

 

[magburner]

Those pictures you have posted may very well be what you say they are, but they can so easily be something else. Either way, children dressed as paramilitaries marching in Beirut, on "Jerusalem Day" does not mean that they are 'active' Hezbollah soldiers.

I'd also like you to remember, with your avatar and status, the current conflict started because:
1. Lebanon has not disbanded Hezb'Allah in south Lebanon in accordance with the Taif Agreement.
2. Hezb'Allah operated an illegal capture mission from Lebanon across the UN Blue Line into Israel and kidnapped two Israelis.
3. Hezb'Allah, using Lebanon as a base, mounted missile strikes against Israeli territory.[/color][/b]

I've stated earlier in this thread that Israel is entirely justified in using force to protect its borders. What I have objected to is the ferocity of the response on the ordinary people of Lebanon.

My avatar and status is a show of solidarity with ordinary Lebanese civillians who through no fault of their own find themselves embroiled in a conflict with powers that they have no control over. It is not a stamp of approval for Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel. Hezbollah should be destroyed, but 300 dead civillians, and probably irrepairable damage to the nations civillian infrastructure and its economy is not a fair price for two captured soldiers.

Israel gave Lebanon warning that it would strike Hezb'Allah targets and to move its innocent citizens from harm's way. Hezb'Allah gave no such warnings and strikes AT Israel's innocent citizens.

Agreed, but Hezbollah is the terrorist organisation not Israel. There has been at least one instance where Israel has ordered civillians out of harms way only to attack them as they were leaving. There are also reports of many other attacks on civillians either intentional or not - saying that the civillians where given prior notice is no defence.

 

[Swift]

Those pictures you have posted may very well be what you say they are, but they can so easily be something else. Either way, children dressed as paramilitaries marching in Beirut, on "Jerusalem Day" does not mean that they are 'active' Hezbollah soldiers.

Maybe not. But it does show that they are brought up very early to believe in what the Hezbollah are doing.

I've stated earlier in this thread that Israel is entirely justified in using force to protect its borders. What I have objected to is the ferocity of the response on the ordinary people of Lebanon.

The Lebanese government should've thought of THEM while they knowing let a terrorist organization run in their country...oh wait, Danoff, Famine and I have said that already.

My avatar and status is a show of solidarity with ordinary Lebanese civillians who through no fault of their own find themselves embroiled in a conflict with powers that they have no control over. It is not a stamp of approval for Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel. Hezbollah should be destroyed, but 300 dead civillians, and probably irrepairable damage to the nations civillian infrastructure and its economy is not a fair price for two captured soldiers.

How can there be "irrepairable" damage? I'm not talking about death here, but to the buildings and what not. How can it get to the point where you can't rebuild? Outside of nuclear weapons of course.

Also, it's not a fair price for two soldiers? How about all those killed by their rockets? Personally, I think that is justification as kidnapping military personell is an act of war.

 

[magburner]

How can there be "irrepairable" damage?

The Lebanese infrastructure was rebuilt after the civil war at great expense, and took 10 years to do so, and they borrowed heavily to fund those repairs. They still have to repay the debt for the last time they rebuilt the infrastructure, so whats the chances they will be able to repay, and borrow again to rebuild? Israel stated that they wanted to take Lebanon back twenty years, you have to give them credit for keeping to their word!

 

[Danoff]

My avatar and status is a show of solidarity with ordinary Lebanese civillians who through no fault of their own...

Really? We can't blame the Lebanese government (a democracy -> people = government) for at least some of this?