Israel and Lebanon

[Touring Mars]

Israel's actions are justifiable, Lebanon is responsible for their attacks and Hezb'Allah are responsible for any civilian casualties.

But Israel do not and cannot have carte blanche to do whatever they want - yes, action is justified - but elements of the Israeli response which amount to nothing more than collective punishment of the Lebanese people are not. There is a line that can be (and in my view, has been) crossed between a justified and proportionate/targetted and focused response (which may actually have achieved something) and what we are actually seeing. Nobody is making excuses for Hezb'Allah, and nor should anybody, but to say that Israel's actions are fully justified is unsatisfactory - I think they've gone too far... provocation gave them an inch of opportunity, but they have taken a mile in reaction...

 

[KSaiyu]

Attacking Iran or Syria in the same way as they're attacking Lebanon has almost no grounds.


So, now we've established that the Lebanese government, through its refusal to comply with its own treaty and unwillingness to prevent strikes by its citizens in the guise of a military outfit, are responsible for the attacks by Israel on targets within Lebanon.

Yes, so why should the people of Lebanon be held accountable? This is the exact same motives of suicide bombers all over the world - "your Governments allowing something bad to happen in my country, you should all pay". We villainise terrorists for this approach, yet allow Israel to bomb Lebanon repeatedly and now even their army, which makes NO sense since they only receive orders, they can't be made to do something just because Israel want it, takes the piss.

 

[ledhed]

But Israel do not and cannot have carte blanche to do whatever they want - yes, action is justified - but elements of the Israeli response which amount to nothing more than collective punishment of the Lebanese people are not. There is a line that can be (and in my view, has been) crossed between a justified and proportionate/targetted and focused response (which may actually have achieved something) and what we are actually seeing. Nobody is making excuses for Hezb'Allah, and nor should anybody, but to say that Israel's actions are fully justified is unsatisfactory - I think they've gone too far... provocation gave them an inch of opportunity, but they have taken a mile in reaction...

TM this is in your opinion. but every target the Israeli have hit has military significance to hezbolla. Either for moving the large amount of rockets and missiles to and from Syria or moving personel and other equipment . Israel is doing nothing more than disrupting the resupply and free movement of its enemy.

You would be wrong in your assumption it is to punish Lebenon , even if it happens to be a by product of the attack and one they brought on themselves by not DISARMING hezbolla like they were supposed to do under the treaty that they signed to have Israel LEAVE southern Lebenons security zone that Israel created to PREVENT such rocket and missile attacks.
If Israel was determined to Punish Lebenon they have the military capability to turn it into a rubble strewn waste land . If you look past the hype you will find that they have been VERY selective and carefull in their targeting..as reflected by the casualty count .

 

[ledhed]

Yes, so why should the people of Lebanon be held accountable? This is the exact same motives of suicide bombers all over the world - "your Governments allowing something bad to happen in my country, you should all pay". We villainise terrorists for this approach, yet allow Israel to bomb Lebanon repeatedly and now even their army, which makes NO sense since they only receive orders, they can't be made to do something just because Israel want it, takes the piss.

History didnt just start when you were born ..educate yourself a little and then maybe you can contribute usefull tidbits of info istead of pissing on yourself .
hezbola is the people of lebenon..they represent a large portion of the shiite majority and have seats in the government and they for a large militia thats allowed to operate BY LEBENON despite the lebanese agreement to disarm them ..so Lebenon is DIRECTLY responsible.
But if you read a book or looked it up you would already know this . you may even see it mentioned on TV but as dumb as they are they expect us to know this since its in the domain of " common " knowlage .

 

[KSaiyu]

You would be wrong in your assumption it is to punish Lebenon , even if it happens to be a by product of the attack and one they brought on themselves by not DISARMING hezbolla like they were supposed to do under the treaty that they signed to have Israel LEAVE southern Lebenons security zone that Israel created to PREVENT such rocket and missile attacks.
If Israel was determined to Punish Lebenon they have the military capability to turn it into a rubble strewn waste land . If you look past the hype you will find that they have been VERY selective and carefull in their targeting..as reflected by the casualty count .

As soon as they hit the army base I knew for sure this is all BS, they had NO reason to do that, and what do you mean look at the casualty count? At this rate the've been killing ~30 civilians every day for a week.

 

[KSaiyu]

History didnt just start when you were born ..educate yourself a little and then maybe you can contribute usefull tidbits of info istead of pissing on yourself .

Even though I've brought up points about the WW2 bombing campaigns...
Yea ok, I'm not treated like a kid 👍

ok....

hezbola is the people of lebenon..they represent a large portion of the shiite majority and have seats in the government and they for a large militia thats allowed to operate BY LEBENON despite the lebanese agreement to disarm them ..so Lebenon is DIRECTLY responsible.

Hezbolla is NOT the people of Lebanon, I know Lebanese people who say they're causing trouble for them and that Lebanon the Country has to pay the price (whereas others are on the side of Hezbollah.) They in fact started in Iran, and have some power in Lebanon because of the week government - WHY should the people have to pay for this?! Like I said in my point above, it is along the same line of thinking as the suicide bombers who hit the civilians in train stations/buses/towers etc.

But if you read a book or looked it up you would already know this . you may even see it mentioned on TV but as dumb as they are they expect us to know this since its in the domain of " common " knowlage .

Nice, I love being condescended like that . Guess I need to brush up on my "common" knowlage.

 

[ledhed]

As soon as they hit the army base I knew for sure this is all BS, they had NO reason to do that, and what do you mean look at the casualty count? At this rate the've been killing ~30 civilians every day for a week.

And you know this how ? You are in the Israeli military ? The army base wasnt controlled or used by hezbolla ? And the 30 " civillians " how many are hezbolla ? Is there a seperate count ? Or are you saying israel has only killed civilians and has missed all the hezbolla they have been shooting at .

Targeting is based on information as to the value and significance of the target to be hit . Its not random " pot luck " shooting..unless you are hezbolla ..then whatever city you hit is all good .

Please do your self a favor and get a little information for yourself before you make the large jump to the wrong conclusions. try to be just a bit balanced. I will be tthe first to say israel hhas to be carefull not to destabilize Lebanese democracy...in fact I think I was ONE of the first ..but do not demonize the victim ...to make a political or " trendy " point..based on no actual knowlage .

 

[Famine]

But Israel do not and cannot have carte blanche to do whatever they want - yes, action is justified - but elements of the Israeli response which amount to nothing more than collective punishment of the Lebanese people are not. There is a line that can be (and in my view, has been) crossed between a justified and proportionate/targetted and focused response (which may actually have achieved something) and what we are actually seeing. Nobody is making excuses for Hezb'Allah, and nor should anybody, but to say that Israel's actions are fully justified is unsatisfactory - I think they've gone too far... provocation gave them an inch of opportunity, but they have taken a mile in reaction...

I said "justifiable"... A subtle enough difference to cover myself


But think about it for a second. If all an army had to do to prevent invasion/defeat was to hide amongst the civilians of the country, no wars would ever be fought.

Terrorists have been using this tactic for years - Israel are just bulldozering over it (after all, the Lebanese don't acknowledge that Israel exists, so why should Israel acknowledge that Lebanese exist?) and it might seem excessive, but fact is, if you don't want to be killed, don't harbour or tolerate terrorists - and don't vote in a government that does.


The fact that the paramilitaries are so keen to put at risk the lives of the people they claim to be defending ought to set the alarm bells going inside Lebanese heads. I don't know of any army that uses its populace as human shields.

 

[ledhed]

Even though I've brought up points about the WW2 bombing campaigns...
Yea ok, I'm not treated like a kid 👍

ok....



Hezbolla is NOT the people of Lebanon, I know Lebanese people who say they're causing trouble for them and that Lebanon the Country has to pay the price (whereas others are on the side of Hezbollah.) They in fact started in Iran, and have some power in Lebanon because of the week government - WHY should the people have to pay for this?! Like I said in my point above, it is along the same line of thinking as the suicide bombers who hit the civilians in train stations/buses/towers etc.



Nice, I love being condescended like that . Guess I need to brush up on my "common" knowlage.

Start brushing

Hizbullah - the Party of God



Hizballah - social radicals.

The prevelant perception of Hizbullah in the "west" is of a militant, armed terrorist organization bent on abduction and murder. While the initial years of its emergence as a political movement in Lebanon were turbulent and controvertial, The Party of God has matured to become an important and pivotal force in Middle East politics in general and Lebanese society in particular. Hizbullah has its immediate historic roots in the social uprising of the Lebanese Shi'a community in the late 1960's and early 70's that took its inspiration from the charismatic Imam Musa Sadr who "disappeared" in Libya in 1978.

Sadr's Movement of the Deprived (Harakat al-Mahrumin) with it's military wing and present-day political party, Amal soon became mired in the convolutions of Lebanese politics and the 15-year civil war. The Israeli invasion of 1982 provided the catalyst for Shiite radicalism. Hizbullah emerged with the aim of expelling the occupants and alleviating the social sufferings of the Shia community.

While Al Moqawama al Islamia (The Islamic Resistance) has attracted much of world attention, the various other community activities of Hizbullah are of equal if not greater importance at home. It runs a range of philanthropic and commercial activities including hospitals, medical centers,schools, orphanages, rehabilitation centers for the handicapped, supermarkets, gas stations, contructions companies, a radio station (Nur) and public service television station (Al Manar). Up until the middle 1990's Hizbullah was also responsible for public services and utilities in the southern suburbs of Beirut.

In the early days, Hizbullah gained much notoriety through the kidnappings of several westerners by one of its fringe groups. But what caused most political consternation were the quite spectacular actions against various foreign occupants by its predecessors. The bombing of the barracks of the US Marines and French headquarters in 1983 killed 300 soldiers of the Multinational Force that by then had lost its semblance of neutrality of intervention in the punishing Israeli siege and occupation of West Beirut. That humiliation led the US to lose its nerve in trying to police the conflict which no longer was restricted to an Israeli - Palestinian matter, with force. The subsequent bombing of the "Israeli Defence Forces" headquarters in Tyre with 75 soldiers lost took its toll on Israeli resolve and led to it's retreat to the present occupation zone in the south. The present activities of the resistance in southern Lebanon continue to try both morale and staying-will of the Israeli occupation whose losses in 1997 alone were 35 men. What is not commonly understood abroad is that the aim of the resistance in southern Lebanon is not military activity against northern Israel as carried on by the Palestinian guerillas of the 70's and early 80's, but the liberation of occupied Lebanon.

The revolution against the Shah in Iran undoubtedly carried much inspiration for the Shi'a community in Lebanon, but it's modern historic roots go back to the Islamic revival at the centers of learning in Najf, Iraq in the 1960's. Hizbullah's spiritual leader is Sheikh Muhammad Husayn Fadlallah who remains somewhat distant from the running of the party who's general secretary is Sheikh Sa'id Hassan Nasrallah.

March 1998 / bl

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/320/324/324.2/hizballah/

The history of Hezbollah begins with the 1982 occupation of Beirut and southern Lebanon by Israel. Israel had re-invaded the country in an effort to control members of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) who had settled there and were carrying out attacks on Israel. In response Shi'ite Muslims with the assistance of Iranian Revolutionary Guards formed Hezbollah to combat the Israeli presence, and ultimately to assist the Palestinians in their fight for statehood.

The group began to execute a series of operations against Israeli and U.S. targets; the U.S. forces were in Lebanon as part of a UN Peace-keeping mission, and between 1983 and 1985, elements of Hezbollah attacked the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, car-bombed the U.S. Embassy and later attacked the embassy's annex.

The bombings forced a withdrawal of the western forces and civil war between various Christian and Muslim factions, along with Israeli and Syrian fighters, continued in Lebanon for several years. Hezbollah continued its attack on westerners, most notably the kidnappings of American, British and French citizens throughout the mid-1980s. The last western hostages were release after the end of the Civil War in 1992.

In 1989 the Lebanese parliament accepted an Arab-brokered peace accord for national reconciliation, and Syria assisted Lebanon's national army to control the country's various factions. The activities of Hezbollah, which Syria had used as a proxy in its efforts to combat Israel, were momentarily put in check, but the group had built cultural and political institutions that would insure its survival into the post-civil war era.

In recent years the group has focused its attacks on the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and the South Lebanon Army (SLA), an armed group allied with the Israelis that has greatly damaged Hezbollah's armed forces. Hezbollah efforts to end Israel's occupation, which included several well-publicize kidnappings in 2000, paid off as Israeli forces withdrew to the border in the summer of 2000.

Hezbollah has increasingly demonstrated independence from Iran and Syria, and has recently begun to play the two governments off each other, as a complex power-struggle has emerged for influence in Lebanon.

In the wake of the September 11 attacks, which Hezbollah has officially denounced, the U.S. has asked Lebanon to freeze the group's assets, a move that has so far been resisted by the government in Beirut. Iran also has fought U.S. efforts to portray Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, claiming the group is a legitimate political party. Hezbollah currently has 12 elected members in the Lebanese government.



What's Next:
Connected Groups

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=Hezbollah-History.htm

 

[KSaiyu]

And you know this how ? You are in the Israeli military ? The army base wasnt controlled or used by hezbolla ?

It killed 11 Lebanese soldiers, notice theres a difference between them and Hezbollah.

And the 30 " civillians " how many are hezbolla ? Is there a seperate count ? Or are you saying israel has only killed civilians and has missed all the hezbolla they have been shooting at

Those were all civilians, I didn't count the militants hence my point... (Source was BBC, Sky news and CNN)

Targeting is based on information as to the value and significance of the target to be hit . Its not random " pot luck " shooting..unless you are hezbolla ..then whatever city you hit is all good .

Then it looks like they seriously need more target practise. Like I said EARLIER, it doesn't matter if we believe they are targeting hezbollah strongholds/links, the EFFECT is the death toll rising every few hours of civilians.

Please do your self a favor and get a little information for yourself before you make the large jump to the wrong conclusions.

lol, WHAT ****ing information, I've backed up my points yet again haven't I?!

try to be just a bit balanced. I will be tthe first to say israel hhas to be carefull not to destabilize Lebanese democracy...in fact I think I was ONE of the first ..but do not demonize the victim ...to make a political or " trendy " point..based on no actual knowlage .

Right, a trendy point because I'm one of those "radical left wingers" who hates democratic governments and has to stick up for the bad guys....

Star brushing

Wait, you don't think I support Hezbollah do you....?

 

[ledhed]

It killed 11 Lebanese soldiers, notice theres a difference between them and Hezbollah.



Those were all civilians, I didn't count the militants hence my point... (Source was BBC, Sky news and CNN)



Then it looks like they seriously need more target practise. Like I said EARLIER, it doesn't matter if we believe they are targeting hezbollah strongholds/links, the EFFECT is the death toll rising every few hours of civilians.



lol, WHAT ****ing information, I've backed up my points yet again haven't I?!



Right, a trendy point because I'm one of those "radical left wingers" who hates democratic governments and has to stick up for the bad guys....



Wait, you don't think I support Hezbollah do you....?

More brushing is needed

Israel Vows to Destroy Hezbollah Arms, Weighs UN Role (Update3)
July 18 (Bloomberg) -- Israel said it will use air, sea and land forces to demolish Hezbollah's rockets in Lebanon in an operation that will probably take a ``few weeks,'' a senior Israeli officer said.

Israel's deputy chief of staff, Major General Moshe Kaplinsky, said fighting should continue until the army drives Hezbollah away from its base in southern Lebanon. Foreign Minister Tsipi Livni said Israel may agree to United Nations peacekeeping forces in south Lebanon.

Kaplinsky's estimate came as fighting in Lebanon entered its seventh day. Israel is seeking to destroy Hezbollah's military capabilities and to force it to disarm as required by UN resolution 1559. The conflict has caused world oil prices to reach record highs.

``We shall examine what solutions are suitable for us,'' Livni said at a press conference in Jerusalem after meeting with UN officials. These would include implementation of the UN resolution calling for militias to be disarmed and the Lebanese army deployed in the south, she said.

Ahmad Fatfat, Lebanon's interior minister, said more than 250 people have been killed and between 500 and 600 wounded as a result of Israeli air strikes on his country, the largest military offensive in Lebanon since 1982. Twenty-four Israelis have been killed since the beginning of the fighting.

Rockets Landed

Rockets landed today on Haifa and other towns in Israel's north, causing no casualties, an army spokeswoman said. Israeli planes bombed the secondary road used for traffic between Beirut and Damascus after its attacks shut the main highway July 13, Lebanon's state-run news service said.

Hezbollah has no intention of letting up on shelling northern Israel, Abdallah Kassir, a member of the Shiite Islamist group's leadership, said in an interview today. Hezbollah wants an unconditional cease-fire followed by talks on a prisoner swap, he said.

The group captured two Israeli soldiers on the border July 12, sparking the Israeli operation. The capture of a soldier on the border with the Gaza Strip June 25 prompted Israeli forces to enter the territory and attack Hamas fighters. Israel has said it wants Hezbollah to surrender its weapons and for Lebanon army's to reassert government control over southern Lebanon, where Hezbollah fighters now operates without restrictions.

In Beirut, the U.S., U.K., China, India and other nations stepped up efforts to evacuate citizens. About 77 individuals were airlifted by helicopter to Cyprus yesterday, Nick Sheppard, a Foreign Office spokesman, said in a telephone interview today. he said.

UN Force

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan asked the five permanent Security Council members yesterday to contribute to a force that will try to end the violence. The council isn't likely to take any action until a UN delegation ends its visit to the region later this week, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said.

``We are frustrated and disappointed,'' Lebanese Ambassador Nouhad Mahmoud said after the Security Council met for the fourth time since the conflict began and took no action on Lebanon's appeal for a cease-fire.

Crude oil prices gained after the Beirut attacks raised concern conflict would spread in the Middle East, which supplies a third of the world's oil. Crude for August delivery rose as much as $1.05 to $76.35 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange and traded at $76.30 at 11:54 a.m. in London. The contract reached a record $78.40 July 14 amid concern the Lebanese conflict would spread.

Stock Markets

The Dow Jones DIFC Arabia Titans Index, a measure of 50 stocks in 10 Arab countries, added 0.6 percent to 322.05 at 2:52 p.m. in Dubai. The Tel Aviv Stock Exchange's benchmark TA-25 benchmark gained 16.18, or 2.1 percent, to 782.37 at 3:20 p.m. local time. Haaretz, quoting an unnamed official, said the fighting may be over by the end of the week.

Since 1978, the UN has stationed peacekeeping forces in a southern strip of Lebanon. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, or Unifil, now has about 1,990 troops in the country, a contingent that has failed to stop either Israel or Hezbollah from undertaking operations.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, in a televised speech to Parliament yesterday, blamed the conflict on Iran and Syria.

``The battle we are conducting now is against the terrorist organizations operating in Lebanon and in Gaza,'' Olmert said. ``They are contractors, acting under the tutelage and with the encouragement of governments that support terrorism and oppose peace, the axis of evil that runs from Tehran to Damascus.''

Israel doesn't seek a wider war, yet must act so its citizens can enjoy a normal life and aren't held ``hostage'' by terrorism, he said.

Support for Fighting

Four out of five Israelis support fighting Hezbollah until it withdraws from the Lebanese border and 58 percent say the organization must be destroyed, a poll published in the newspaper Yediot Aharonot showed. A record 78 percent of the nation approve of Olmert's job performance since fighting began, the telephone survey of 513 Israelis indicated. The poll has a margin of error of 4.2 percent.

Israel began calling up reserve troops to fight Hezbollah, an army spokeswoman said by telephone from Tel Aviv, declining to say how many soldiers will be needed.

Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005, razing Jewish settlements it established after seizing the area from Egypt in the Six-Day War of 1967.

Israel hasn't launched a full-scale military attack on Lebanon or Hezbollah since it pulled its troops out of a swathe of southern Lebanon held for 18 years until May 2000.



To contact the reporter on this story:
Alisa Odenheimer in Jerusalem at
aodenheimer@bloomberg.net
Maher Chmaytelli in Beirut at mchmaytelli@bloomberg.net

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a33mCedQOHx8&refer=home

ort and a railway depot in Israel's third-biggest city.

Plumes of smoke could be seen from where the rockets - likely Katyushas fired by Hezbollah from southern Lebanon - struck near the port and the railway depot that was struck Sunday, killing eight people. No injuries were immediately reported.

Overnight 11 Lebanese soldiers were killed and 35 wounded in an Israeli air strike.

Warplanes swooped down on the area of Kfar Chima early Tuesday, firing missiles near a local army base.

As the soldiers were rushing to their bomb shelters, the base took a direct hit, said the officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the army had not issued a communique.

In recent days, Israeli officials have sent conflicting signals about whether Israel would demand Hezbollah's disarmament as a condition for a ceasefire. Livni's comments indicated Israel would accept future disarmament, provided that Lebanon immediately deploy its own troops along the border to prevent any future rocket attacks against northern Israel.

"There is another need to prevent Iran and Syria, and from Iran through Syria, to arm Hezbollah in the future," Livni said. "These are our diplomatic goals and to achieve them we will co-operate with the international community."

Iran and Syria are prime supporters of Hezbollah, leading to fears they could be drawn into a wider regional conflict.

Also Tuesday, the Israeli army's deputy chief of staff said he has not ruled out a ground invasion into Lebanon.

"At this stage we do not think we have to activate massive ground forced into Lebanon but if we have to do this, we will. We are not ruling it out," Maj. Gen Moshe Kaplinski told Israeli radio.

Israel is fighting Islamic militants on two fronts - one in Lebanon against Hezbollah, which captured two Israeli soldiers last Wednesday in a daring cross-border raid, and another in Gaza against Hamas, which captured another Israeli soldier during a raid of its own on June 25.

United Nations negotiator Terje Roed-Larsen told reporters in Jerusalem that "concrete ideas" had been presented to the Israeli government to solve the crisis, and that Israel would deliberate on them in the coming days.

He did not provide any further details on the proposals.


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...

Warplanes swooped down on the area of Kfar Chima early Tuesday, firing missiles near a local army base.

Hence the danger of accepting things at face value without looking into your source or the story .

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=767715c4-18bf-4877-bf06-811259379542&k=31558

A military official said 11 soldiers were killed and 35 wounded at the base, which is camp for a unit that specializes in logistics and military engineering. Earlier security officials had reported five killed.

Hmm logistics and engineering.......just what you need for firing long range missiles into Israel....isnt that interesting....maybe it was a target...but then again if so why does it still exist ???? Its not not the Lebanese army can protect itself from hezbolla..at least thats what they say anyway ...

 

[Famine]

Those were all civilians, I didn't count the militants hence my point... (Source was BBC, Sky news and CNN)

And, as I asked earlier, how do the news agencies tell which dead bodies are civilian, and which dead bodies are paramilitary?

Or, more importantly, where do they get their information about the dead from?

Yes, so why should the people of Lebanon be held accountable?

It's their government - they voted for it.

Were not the people of London, Coventry and Sheffield held accountable by the Nazis? The people of Dresden by the Allies. The people of Hiroshima?

This is the exact same motives of suicide bombers all over the world - "your Governments allowing something bad to happen in my country, you should all pay". We villainise terrorists for this approach

Except that Israel are still not aiming for civilians.

They've advised the civilians that their - and their government's - protection of terrorists may result in their deaths in the event of Israeli strikes against the terrorists. 100,000 people in the last week got the message and sodded off to Syria.

I'll remind you - Lebanon haven't disbanded an illegal military organisation as they promised they would, is partly governed by them, and allows them to hide amongst civilian populations who have been warned before the strikes arrived.

Though the attacks are Israel's actions, the strikes are Lebanon's fault and the civilian deaths are Hezb'Allah's fault for using them as human shields and the civilians' for not getting out when warned.

yet allow Israel to bomb Lebanon repeatedly and now even their army, which makes NO sense since they only receive orders

I'm sorry? Did you just say that someone shouldn't kill the army of a country with which they are effectively at war, because they're only obeying their superiors?

 

[KSaiyu]

Well my source said it was a direct hit on the army base (as like yours) and didn't have any more details at the time, but it still doesn't change the fact that 11 Lebanese soldiers are dead in one hit, that's almost the entire amount of militants they've killed in a week of bombing.

 

[ledhed]

Well my source said it was a direct hit on the army base (as like yours) and didn't have any more details at the time, but it still doesn't change the fact that 11 Lebanese soldiers are dead in one hit, that's almost the entire amount of militants they've killed in a week of bombing.

And you have an inside source as to how many " MILITANTS " they have killed ?

You are digging a bit of a large hole for yourself , wouldnt you say ? And BTW it wasnt the first time Israel has disrupted or attacked lebanese military positions.

While I was looking I found this little tid bit..

"The Israelis are not just targeting militants, they are attacking everything: our houses, trees, economy, even my bathroom," said Mahmoud Yazji, 30, as members of his family dug through their damaged home.

There make you happy..I got a bit of a grin from the guy .

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-18-israel-lebanon_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA

Delivering an impassioned speech to Israel's parliament on Monday, Olmert said the country would have no mercy on Lebanese militants who attack its cities with rockets.

"We shall seek out every installation, hit every terrorist helping to attack Israeli citizens, destroy all the terrorist infrastructure, in every place. We shall continue this until Hezbollah does the basic and fair things required of it by every civilized person," he said.

Guys bathroom must have had some really bad WMDS...almost as bad as mine on a saturday morning . He should have opened a window ...

Tuesday's deaths raised the toll from seven days of fighting to at least 226 people killed in Lebanon and 24 in Israel.

The Lebanese army has largely stayed out of the fighting, but its positions have been repeatedly attacked by Israeli warplanes, undermining Israel's call for it to help push back Hezbollah from the border.

I guess Israel wants them all to itself ..

 

[KSaiyu]

And, as I asked earlier, how do the news agencies tell which dead bodies are civilian, and which dead bodies are paramilitary?

Or, more importantly, where do they get their information about the dead from?

I'm not a journalist, but it doesn't really matter if there are a few discrepencies, there ARE at least 200 civilians dead (unless we can't trust them, but we can trust the Israelis with their death tolls)

It's their government - they voted for it.

Were not the people of London, Coventry and Sheffield held accountable by the Nazis? The people of Dresden by the Allies. The people of Hiroshima?

Exactly what I'm trying to put across, so do you believe that the civilians should be held accountable, effectivly giving the green light for hate-minded people to strap themselves to a bomb and kill innocents for their angst against the government?

Except that Israel are still not aiming for civilians.

I don't care if they are or they aren't, the RESULT is the important thing. It's like saying the Americans weren't aiming for us when they fired at British tanks causing "friendly fire" damage - the result is what people take notice of.

They've advised the civilians that their - and their government's - protection of terrorists may result in their deaths in the event of Israeli strikes against the terrorists. 100,000 people in the last week got the message and sodded off to Syria.

So it's ok for them to flatten Lebanon if they all leave, it's their fault for living in the country holding terrorists.

I'll remind you - Lebanon haven't disbanded an illegal military organisation as they promised they would, is partly governed by them, and allows them to hide amongst civilian populations who have been warned before the strikes arrived.

I know that, we agreed on that earlier.

Though the attacks are Israel's actions, the strikes are Lebanon's fault and the civilian deaths are Hezb'Allah's fault for using them as human shields and the civilians' for not getting out when warned.

But this is still excessive force, and in the end it's Israel who are firing the missiles killing civilians every few hours.

I'm sorry? Did you just say that someone shouldn't kill the army of a country with which they are effectively at war, because they're only obeying their superiors?

So you admit that Israel is going to war against the country of Lebanon, not just Hizbollah?

Taken from that site you gave ledhead:

The base in the southern area of Kfar Chima took a direct hit as the soldiers rushed to their bomb shelters, leaving at least 11 soldiers dead and 35 wounded, the Lebanese military said.

The Lebanese army has largely stayed out of the fighting, but its positions have been repeatedly attacked by Israeli warplanes, undermining Israel's call for it to help push back Hezbollah from the border.

That's roughly what my source said, I still find it pretty hard to justify...

 

[ledhed]

I'm not a journalist, but it doesn't really matter if there are a few discrepencies, there ARE at least 200 civilians dead (unless we can't trust them, but we can trust the Israelis with their death tolls)




Exactly what I'm trying to put across, so do you believe that the civilians should be held accountable, effectivly giving the green light for hate-minded people to strap themselves to a bomb and kill innocents for their angst against the government?

[/b][/color]

I don't care if they are or they aren't, the RESULT is the important thing. It's like saying the Americans weren't aiming for us when they fired at British tanks causing "friendly fire" damage - the result is what people take notice of.



So it's ok for them to flatten Lebanon if they all leave, it's their fault for living in the country holding terrorists.



I know that, we agreed on that earlier.



But this is still excessive force, and in the end it's Israel who are firing the missiles killing civilians every few hours.



So you admit that Israel is going to war against the country of Lebanon, not just Hizbollah?

here read this again

Quote:
Delivering an impassioned speech to Israel's parliament on Monday, Olmert said the country would have no mercy on Lebanese militants who attack its cities with rockets.

"We shall seek out every installation, hit every terrorist helping to attack Israeli citizens, destroy all the terrorist infrastructure, in every place. We shall continue this until Hezbollah does the basic and fair things required of it by every civilized person," he said.

That just about covers it dont you think ?

 

[KSaiyu]

That just about covers it dont you think ?

Covers what? Calling buildings "terrorist infrastucture", and killing over 10 times more civilians than militants? I'd love to see the reaction if this was the other way around and Palestine was bombing Israel to hell to try to get them to release the innocent prisoners the Israelis have in their jails.

 

[Famine]

I'm not a journalist, but it doesn't really matter if there are a few discrepencies, there ARE at least 200 civilians dead (unless we can't trust them, but we can trust the Israelis with their death tolls)

You seem to be missing the point somewhat.

You're relying on news agencies for your figures. They're correct, to you, because they're from news agencies.

But who are the news agencies relying on?

They're relying on the combatants. Lebanon says Israel have killed 400,000 civilians and a couple of cute little puppies and that's what the press report. Similarly, Israel could say that its special terrorist-seeking bullets have killed eighty-twelve terrorists and not injured a single innocent person or puppy, and that's what the press would report. It doesn't have to be even slightly true.

So quit relying on fifth-hand information and ask yourself how Sky News KNOW that of the 40 people pulled dead out of an apartment block, only 1 was a terrorist.

Exactly what I'm trying to put across, so do you believe that the civilians should be held accountable, effectivly giving the green light for hate-minded people to strap themselves to a bomb and kill innocents for their angst against the government?

And you miss the point again.

Lebanon is democratic. The people of Lebanon elect their leaders (with three exceptions). Government serves (or should serve) the will of the people. If it doesn't it is ousted and replaced at the next election - four years down the line, in their Constitution.

In a democracy, the people ARE accountable for the decisions of their Government, because they put them there and can take them out again.


Now you're saying that makes it fine for any one person to kill any other person they don't agree with. This is quite a leap of faith.

I don't care if they are or they aren't, the RESULT is the important thing. It's like saying the Americans weren't aiming for us when they fired at British tanks causing "friendly fire" damage - the result is what people take notice of.

What was the result of Hiroshima?

So it's ok for them to flatten Lebanon if they all leave, it's their fault for living in the country holding terrorists.

Yes!

Their government - that is the people THEY put in power - thinks it's okay to harbour terrorists and strike against their neighbours.

At least their neighbour makes an effort to get the civilians out of the way first. What leaflets did Hezb'Allah put over Israel before they launched rocket attacks on solely-civilian targets?

But this is still excessive force, and in the end it's Israel who are firing the missiles killing civilians every few hours.

Civilians who have been warned that the missiles are coming because terrorists hide in their midsts.

Since 100,000 people have left Lebanon inside a week, the message is getting through. One could assume that the remaining people want to stay, even after seeing the destruction. One could wonder why they'd want to stay.

So you admit that Israel is going to war against the country of Lebanon, not just Hizbollah?

Remember this?

The Lebanese government IS Hezb'Allah - their political wing are responsible for, amongst other things, Lebanon's hospitals and roads - the two are inseperable, just as Afghanistan's government was inseperable from the Taliban, Iraq's government was inseperable from the Ba'athists and Germany's government was inseperable from the Nazis.

Incidentally, I STILL want to know how one should negotiate with people who refuse your right to exist and are entirely devoted to your death.

 

[KSaiyu]

So you propose they should continue - then what?

Hezbollah tells Lebanese you NEED us (this is years before this week) because Israel will attack you and without us, you won't be able to defend yourself.

Fast forward to the present and Israel have started attacking cities and towns, the Lebanese start to think it's excessive and start backing Hezbollah.

Israel says it wants the two soldiers returned, yet Hizbollah cleverly sides with the Palestinians and wants to trade them for innocent prisoners. Who will the Lebanese believe - the military wing of their government or Israelis indiscrimanetly bombing their country?

More and more civilians are killed, yet the rockets still keep ploughing into Israel because of Hizbollah militants, gaining support by the second. Where does it go from there, carry on until theres no one left in the country? By continually bombing a nation and killing innocent people you're going to piss people off (like how Hezbollah is doing against Israel), and they will support military action. I just can't see how this is helping Israels cause - why would Hizbollah trade their hostage for nothing? No-ones stupid enough to give a bargaining chip like that away.

Also about the response to the news articles - I don't know who to trust to report the truth, I mean it sure IS possible that the authorities are lying, but then how are we to believe anything we see in the news? Using that logic, how can we believe Israel is targetting only military infrastucture since we're not there and we only have their word?

Remember this?

Yes, but for a lot of the Lebanese this is precisly why they thought Hizbollah should be voted in.

Israel should be defending itself, but not taking it out against the people of Lebanon who have no viable option to get rid of Hizbollah now. What seriously can they do - risk a civil war to save some Israelis?

 

[Danoff]

But Israel do not and cannot have carte blanche to do whatever they want - yes, action is justified - but elements of the Israeli response which amount to nothing more than collective punishment of the Lebanese people are not. There is a line that can be (and in my view, has been) crossed between a justified and proportionate/targetted and focused response (which may actually have achieved something) and what we are actually seeing. Nobody is making excuses for Hezb'Allah, and nor should anybody, but to say that Israel's actions are fully justified is unsatisfactory - I think they've gone too far... provocation gave them an inch of opportunity, but they have taken a mile in reaction...

TM,

The argument that Israel is engaging in "collective punishment" is a weak one at best. Do you honestly believe that Israel is not pursuing terrorists and is simply trying to kill Lebanese? If so, how do you account for the fact that they have not laid waste to cities and murdered civilians by the thousand? They certainly have the military capability to do so, yet they do not. If you think they are justified in going after terrorists, what kind of tagets would you expect them to go after? What kind of damage would you expect to see? And how can you tell the difference between a dead terrorist and a dead civilian?

Ok next bit. You say that Israel does not have "have carte blanche to do whatever they want". But they're clearly not doing whatever they want. They have the military capability to raze Lebanon to the ground, yet they do not. They have the capability to kill Lebanese by the thousand and destroy infrastructure everywhere yet they do not. So I don't think it's fair to accuse them of getting a green light for whatever atrocities their minds can come up with.

Lastly, you say that their retaliation is disproportionate. What would you consider proportionate? That they kidnap two Hezbollah, lauch rockets at Lebanese civilians a few months, and demand their kidnapped (note that I'm not using the word prisoner) soldiers back in exchange for their previously kidnapped soldiers? Obviously that would get them nowhere. The numbers have been posted here, if Israel decides that one dead Israeli = one dead Hezbollah terrorist, then Israel will be out of people FAR before the terrorists. Their response MUST be disproportionate. Nothing else would be appropriate. Crossing into Israeli territory and capturing soldiers is an act of war. Launching rockets at school children is an act of war. To prevent these acts from occuring again, Israel must respond VERY harshly.

I don't care if they are or they aren't, the RESULT is the important thing. It's like saying the Americans weren't aiming for us when they fired at British tanks causing "friendly fire" damage - the result is what people take notice of.

Yup, Friendly fire is exactly the same as purposefully blowing up a tank. Yeah!!! Where do you get this stuff?

 

[Famine]

So you propose they should continue

Did I?

Don't confuse my stating that their actions are justifiable with whole-hearted support.

Hezbollah tells Lebanese you NEED us (this is years before this week) because Israel will attack you and without us, you won't be able to defend yourself.

Fast forward to the present and Israel have started attacking cities and towns, the Lebanese start to think it's excessive and start backing Hezbollah.

Israel says it wants the two soldiers returned, yet Hizbollah cleverly sides with the Palestinians and wants to trade them for innocent prisoners. Who will the Lebanese believe - the military wing of their government or Israelis indiscrimanetly bombing their country?

Hezb'Allah are not the military wing of the Lebanese government.

Hezb'Allah is a terrorist group, of which part masquerades as a political party. The political party bit of it has seats in government and posts in health and transportation - not defence.


To the question of who do the Lebanese believe... whoever has the best spin. However, Israel HAS offered a solution - give them back their soldiers, stop an illegal paramilitary organisation they aren't supposed to have from bombing their villages and get the army to actually do the job they're supposed to do under the Taif agreement and they'll stop. Hezb'Allah have rejected any overtures at a ceasefire, as they do not want to bargain on the terms of a state of which they do not recognise the existance. However, Israel, Lebanon and Hezb'Allah all know that Israel, with its massive military might, will never get bored of using their weapons for live-fire exercises, as long as they have something to aim at.

Also about the response to the news articles - I don't know who to trust to report the truth, I mean it sure IS possible that the authorities are lying, but then how are we to believe anything we see in the news? Using that logic, how can we believe Israel is targetting only military infrastucture since we're not there and we only have their word?

It's quite easy.

Here is dead person A. Is dead person A a terrorist or an innocent Lebanese flower-seller, cut down by the infidel's Slammer? Examine dead person A in as much detail as you want. You'll find that the answer is "not a clue".

Here is blown-up building B. Is blown-up building B an airport or a hospital. Unless it's just a smouldering crater in the ground, 4 miles across, the answer is really rather obvious - combined with the nosecam footage from the Israeli US-built jets.


If you have 40 dead people, it's tough to say which, if any, is a terrorist, unless one is clutching an AK-47 and has a signed confession to terrorism in his left pocket. One side can claim that all 40 were innocent. The other side can claim that they're all terrorists. Which version is true? Unless it's a daycare centre, who knows?

But the point of all of this is... News agencies have their sources. Their news is only as good as their sources. When they're reporting the number of Lebanese dead in a Lebanese house, how good can their sources really be - or more to the point, is there any possibility of bias from their sources?

Yes, but for a lot of the Lebanese this is precisly why they thought Hizbollah should be voted in.

And that will lead to their deaths. Sad, but true. They backed the wrong horse - the foreigners have no qualms about killing them if it means taking out terrorists, and the terrorists have no qualms about killing them or letting them die if it means they can continue kill foreigners.

A terrorist will never protect you over himself.

Israel should be defending itself, but not taking it out against the people of Lebanon who have no viable option to get rid of Hizbollah now.

I don't know how I can make this more clear to you.

Israel warned the "people of Lebanon" that they were coming for the terrorists, would shoot through them to get them and advised them to leave or risk dying. ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND of them got the message and left. Acting shocked because those that stayed are being killed along with the terrorists that they are protecting is stunning.

What seriously can they do - risk a civil war to save some Israelis?

How about to save themselves from being ruled by terrorists?

Civil war? Hezb'Allah polled less than 20%. Assuming that everyone voted, or that the trends would continue throughout the country, that's 4 non-supporters for every supporter. That's not a very long civil war - and supports my comment about a weak government. The Lebanese leadership don't seem willing to get rid of this minor ailment in their government and, considering that they signed an agreement to do exactly that, it's quite appalling. They're risking war with Syria more than a civil war, by simple virtue of not abiding by the terms of their agreement.

 

[Touring Mars]

TM,

The argument that Israel is engaging in "collective punishment" is a weak one at best. Do you honestly believe that Israel is not pursuing terrorists and is simply trying to kill Lebanese? If so, how do you account for the fact that they have not laid waste to cities and murdered civilians by the thousand? They certainly have the military capability to do so, yet they do not. If you think they are justified in going after terrorists, what kind of tagets would you expect them to go after? What kind of damage would you expect to see? And how can you tell the difference between a dead terrorist and a dead civilian?

Ok next bit. You say that Israel does not have "have carte blanche to do whatever they want". But they're clearly not doing whatever they want. They have the military capability to raze Lebanon to the ground, yet they do not. They have the capability to kill Lebanese by the thousand and destroy infrastructure everywhere yet they do not. So I don't think it's fair to accuse them of getting a green light for whatever atrocities their minds can come up with.

Lastly, you say that their retaliation is disproportionate. What would you consider proportionate? That they kidnap two Hezbollah, lauch rockets at Lebanese civilians a few months, and demand their kidnapped (not that I'm not using the word prisoner) soldiers back in exchange for their previously kidnapped soldiers? Obviously that would get them nowhere. The numbers have been posted here, if Israel decides that one dead Israeli = one dead Hezbollah terrorist, then Israel will be out of people FAR before the terrorists. Their response MUST be disproportionate. Nothing else would be appropriate. Crossing into Israeli territory and capturing soldiers is an act of war. Launching rockets at school children is an act of war. To prevent these acts from occuring again, Israel must respond VERY harshly.

Good points/post... I have to go right now so I don't have time to respond in any more detail, but you raise some interesting/debatable points 👍

 

[KSaiyu]

Yup, Friendly fire is exactly the same as purposefully blowing up a tank. Yeah!!! Where do you get this stuff?

What I said was: I don't care if they are or they aren't [targeted], the RESULT is the important thing.

Meaning that targeted or not (obviously not in the case of the Americans), the result is the same - innocent people killed. It doesn't matter in the eyes of the Lebanese if it's collateral or not, they are seeing this as more of them killed by the Lebanese. I wasn't equating it to if the Americans had targeted the British tank, it would be a different story, if that makes sense to you. Wasn't the best example, but hope it gets the point across.

To Famine - I'll respond in a bit, I got a TOCA race soon, need practise

 

[Swift]

Israel says it wants the two soldiers returned, yet Hizbollah cleverly sides with the Palestinians and wants to trade them for innocent prisoners. Who will the Lebanese believe - the military wing of their government or Israelis indiscrimanetly bombing their country?

More and more civilians are killed, yet the rockets still keep ploughing into Israel because of Hizbollah militants, gaining support by the second. Where does it go from there, carry on until theres no one left in the country? By continually bombing a nation and killing innocent people you're going to piss people off (like how Hezbollah is doing against Israel), and they will support military action. I just can't see how this is helping Israels cause - why would Hizbollah trade their hostage for nothing? No-ones stupid enough to give a bargaining chip like that away.

Who's support are they gaining?

 

[Danoff]

What I said was: I don't care if they are or they aren't [targeted], the RESULT is the important thing.

I wasn't equating it to if the Americans had targeted the British tank, it would be a different story

First quote contradicts the second.

 

[KSaiyu]

From the Lebanese, their familys and homes are being destroyed, their country facing a economy crisis all because of who? The Israelis. And who is it that is "standing up to the jews" and whose manifesto includes "The Protocols of Zion"? Hezbollah. I fear it may not just be the Lebanese though, since other Shia muslims may rally to their cause.

First quote contradicts the second.

Read. I said the result i.e. the killing of the innocent people - that is what the people will read in the news and care about - NOT the circumstances, and when it's past 200 they will take notice. I picked another example of collateral damage, in this case friendly fire by the Americans, not the actual consequences on whether they were being targeted or not.

Clear now?

 

[Swift]

From the Lebanese, their familys and homes are being destroyed, their country facing a economy crisis all because of who? The Israelis. And who is it that is "standing up to the jews" and whose manifesto includes "The Protocols of Zion"? Hezbollah. I fear it may not just be the Lebanese though, since other Shia muslims may rally to their cause.

Yeah, it's all the Israelis' fault that the wonderful Hezbollah sent rockets to kill people as you put earlier, indiscriminetly.

Personally, I hate the thought of dead women and children that aren't directly connected to this situation. But I hate the thought of terrorisim even more. If lebanon didn't want it's people killed, they should've done what they said they were going to do years ago. Now they are reaping what the sewed. And I completely refuse to feel sorry for the government or the military of that country.

 

[Danoff]

Read. I said the result i.e. the killing of the innocent people - that is what the people will read in the news and care about - NOT the circumstances, and when it's past 200 they will take notice. I picked another example of collateral damage, in this case friendly fire by the Americans, not the actual consequences on whether they were being targeted or not.

Clear now?

No. The result is nowhere near as important as the particulars. The result, over 2000 dead at the world trade center in 2001, is not nearly as significant as HOW and WHY they died. If it were an accident, that's a much different story than if it was intentional. The result is of far less importance.

The same goes with collateral damage. The result, dead civilians, is not nearly as important as HOW and WHY they died. Were they intentionally killed? Or were they killed accidently while the real target was someone else. It's very similar to your friendly fire example. Was the british tank fired upon intentionally? Or was it accidently fired upon while the real target was someone else.

You're obsessed with the results, even though the results are practically inconsequential compared to the particulars of the situation. You seem to understand this in cases not related to Israel. But when it comes to Israel, you figure a dead person is a dead person, whether at the hands of a terrorist or accidently fired upon by an Israeli soldier.

 

[KSaiyu]

Yeah, it's all the Israelis' fault that the wonderful Hezbollah sent rockets to kill people as you put earlier, indiscriminetly.

I'm replying to why the LEBANESE and other muslims, not I, are supporting Hezbollah through this campaign or because of it. I know both sides are guilty.

The same goes with collateral damage. The result, dead civilians, is not nearly as important as HOW and WHY they died. Were they intentionally killed? Or were they killed accidently while the real target was someone else. It's very similar to your friendly fire example. Was the british tank fired upon intentionally? Or was it accidently fired upon while the real target was someone else.

All this started from the response to this quote by famine:

Except that Israel are still not aiming for civilians.

And I then went on and said how it's the result that matters, which is why newspapers around the world (not all obviously), the Lebanese themselves and opponents to Israels attacks will tell you "200 civilians have died", and not "200 civilians" have died, all due to collaterall damage.

You're obsessed with the results, even though the results are practically inconsequential compared to the particulars of the situation.

Of course they're consequential, especially in this instance. We're talking about unnarmed families for the most part, it won't matter to relatives or the general Lebanese if it was collateral or not, Israel has the power to stop it and it should be encouraged to.

 

[Swift]

Of course they're consequential, especially in this instance. We're talking about unnarmed families for the most part, it won't matter to relatives or the general Lebanese if it was collateral or not, Israel has the power to stop it and it should be encouraged to.

How about the unarmed families that were destroyed by Hizbollah rockets?