Israel and Lebanon

[a6m5]

Yea, I guess the same kind of thinking applies to the US after 9/11. I mean, if we'd been interested in peace, we would have given the terrorists money and food and told them to play nice. That would make it all better. Obviously by going to war we indicated that we aren't interested in peace. Anyone who goes to war is obviously not interested in peace. The only people who go to war and accept collateral damage are agressive people who either want to murder others or are greedy. Everyone knows the proper response to terrorism is to roll over and take it in the tailpipe. Then the terrorists get bored and move on - that's the way it works.

I agree 100% with the "War on Terror". Oh, wait. What part did Iraq take in 9/11?. And please, don't give me the official "excuse" that it was about the WMD or U.N. Resolution. U.S. pretty much ignored what U.N. had to say and invaded Iraq as part of "War on Terror".

We live in an age of terrorism, it's the plague of the 21st century and lines are very hard to distinguish. It's hard to precisely kill terrorists when they're living or operating from civilian areas. Sometimes terrorists may operate from a block of flats which also houses civilians. Of course they use civilian airports and sea ports, there are no special terrorist airports or sea ports.

If Isarael were actually attacking Hezbollah target, such as where they were firing at Israel from, I am all for it. Collateral damage in that situation is totally acceptable, even if that meant Israeli bombing an apartment building with few civilians inside. But attacking civilian International Airport because "Hezbollah use it too" is not acceptable IMO.

If people on this thread want to start blaming, blame Lebanon in equal amount to Israel. If Lebanon was a "righteous" government they would not allow terrorists to operate so freely and designate them better for their own and Israel's armed forces and wipe out terrorism and protect the civilians.

While keeping the terrorists in check in a country in the Middle East is easier said than done I'm sure(like if you don't do what they say, they'll kill your kids, etc.), I agree with you on this 100%.

War is war, from Lebanon's territory acts of war were committed and as such Israel is retaliating. Mistakes are being made by both governments. Civilians die, harsh but true. Unfortunate and sometimes unavoidable.

It's a war, I agree. But IMO, Israel is literally punishing Lebanon, setting example of them, when they should be focused on Hezbollah. Whatever peoples' opinion on the effects of this tactic may be, I think they went too far.

By all means, they should respond - but they should do so proportionately and within the law, even if their adversaries have no regard for the law (or even their own people) themselves.

I agree, Chris. They should hit back hard. I would even let them go passed the law a little bit. But they went on a out of control rampage.

 

[Danoff]

I agree 100% with the "War on Terror". Oh, wait. What part did Iraq take in 9/11?. And please, don't give me the official "excuse" that it was about the WMD or U.N. Resolution. U.S. pretty much ignored what U.N. had to say and invaded Iraq as part of "War on Terror".

Iraq was invaded because, over the course of many years, they violated multiple treaties. It had nothing to do with the war on terror, but it is reflective of post-9/11 thinking.

KSaiyu,

I give up. You're bouncing all over the place. I can't keep track of 4 levels of responses that don't have anything to do with the original post. You keep shifting your argument around and missing the point and it's tiresome.

 

[Swift]

Iraq was invaded because, over the course of many years, they violated multiple treaties. It had nothing to do with the war on terror, but it is reflective of post-9/11 thinking.

Not to mention the recently released info of the WMD's and terrorist funding.

Kyasu, Since when is war automatically genocide?

 

[a6m5]

Iraq was invaded because, over the course of many years, they violated multiple treaties. It had nothing to do with the war on terror, but it is reflective of post-9/11 thinking.

Iraq did violate many treaties and rules set by United Nations, but I asked you not to bring that up, because United States ignored what United Nations had to say about the "Operation Iraq Freedom", which is a violation in itself.

United States ignored U.N. to go after Iraq, because Iraq was ignoring U.N. I'm sorry, but that's what I call a B.S.

 

[KSaiyu]

KSaiyu,

I give up. You're bouncing all over the place. I can't keep track of 4 levels of responses that don't have anything to do with the original post. You keep shifting your argument around and missing the point and it's tiresome.

I dunno, which part was missing the point? I'll agree it's tiresome, and I'm sorry if there were "4 levels of responses", but I didn't bring up every point, I just defended them from an Palestinian/Lebanese perspective and I think I didn't stray from the original argument (which was about the crisis) with my responses.

Kyasu, Since when is war automatically genocide?

lol, it wasn't even me that brought this up, but I'll say again, at the moment it's not genocide (so it's a war), but I'm ASKING where is there left to go, and it can only be more killing of Lebanese which people can see as genocide.

 

[Swift]

Iraq did violate many treaties and rules set by United Nations, but I asked you not to bring that up, because United States ignored what United Nations had to say about the "Operation Iraq Freedom", which is a violation in itself.

United States ignored U.N. to go after Iraq, because Iraq was ignoring U.N. I'm sorry, but that's what I call a B.S.

Then check this thread and educated yourself.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=82779

lol, it wasn't even me that brought this up, but I'll say again, at the moment it's not genocide (so it's a war), but I'm ASKING where is there left to go, and it can only be more killing of Lebanese which people can see as genocide.

How about an end to that particular conflict. How about Lebanon NOT messing with Israel anymore. Wow, what a concept.

 

[FoolKiller]

What the other guy was saying is that is where it could/will lead to - genocide of the Lebanese. I also said, where is there left to go now that they're killing the Lebanese every day?

You do realize you can have war without genocide, correct? Where do you get the slightest idea that Israel, or Jews, are wanting to kill all Lebanese people? If that were the case they would be fire bombing town squares and other places where large numbers of civilians are gathered.

Was America committing genocide on the Afghanistan civilians, the Iraqis? Were the allies committing genocide against the Germans in WWII? Heck were the Germans comitting genocide against the occupied countries? No, just the Jews.

German concentration camps, that is what genocide looks like. Rwanda is what genocide looks like. Genocide is ugly and obvious. If Israel was trying to commit genocide they would just raze the city, killing everyone they can see.

Yes that is true, but look which state is the one who is actually on the first steps to genocide. (Notice I said state, since it's the terrorists who actually act against Israel.)

See above. This is far from the first steps to genocide.

One could also argue that Palestine, as a state, has acted against Israel since Hamas is the party in power. If accusations that Iran has been empowering Hezbollah are true, then one could also say Iran has acted against Israel.

Either way, a country harboring a terrorist organization is supporting that group and has to answer for that. If Lebanon were good neighbors they would march their troops down to the border and start helping Israel remove Hezbollah. Israel has been asking for that for years and Lebanon has refused. Why?

 

[emad]

There you go again quoting the number of civilian casualties for no reason. It doesn't matter how many civilians were killed. What matters is HOW they were killed.

Civilians aside, lets look at how effective this attack has been. Are there any numbers for dead terrorists?

 

[a6m5]

Then check this thread and educated yourself.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=82779

Thanks for that. I had no idea. But let me ask you this; This news comes out like 3 years after the invasion, right? And you are trying to convince me that this was the reason for the invasion of Iraq, all along? Have you noticed that their(people in favor of that invasion) story has been changing from the very beginning? That's like me murdering somebody, after three years in prison, they found child porn on the dead guy's computer and me claiming(3 years later) that was the reason why I took him out.

Good find by FoolKiller though. Sorry I missed it.

P.S. Back from DMV within an hour(left my apartment after my previous post). This gotta be somekinda record!?

Edit: Seems some of you are talking about genocide. What genocide?

 

[KSaiyu]

Then check this thread and educated yourself.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=82779



How about an end to that particular conflict. How about Lebanon NOT messing with Israel anymore. Wow, what a concept.

Sure, but it's Hezbollah that is firing the missiles, not the Lebenese. They have to come up with a better way than killing civilians if they want to get their kidnapped soldier back, but because of their no negotiation stance I guess that's all they can think of (I personally believe negotiating would admit that Israel is holding a few innocent prisoners and they aren't willing to show this, but we'll never know that).

You do realize you can have war without genocide, correct? Where do you get the slightest idea that Israel, or Jews, are wanting to kill all Lebanese people? If that were the case they would be fire bombing town squares and other places where large numbers of civilians are gathered.

Was America committing genocide on the Afghanistan civilians, the Iraqis? Were the allies committing genocide against the Germans in WWII? Heck were the Germans comitting genocide against the occupied countries? No, just the Jews.

Damnit, I never said they are commiting genocide, I'm not even the guy who brought it up, I'm just agreeing that if this continues then what other label can you give it? If it's War - then why are so many civilians dead and what are the objectives?

This is far from the first steps to genocide.

Please. This is not a legitimate start of a war - States shouldn't be bombing whole cities because of a few militants. At the moment it's a retaliation, a really bloody one - but because it's Israel the world is fine to let it fly.

One could also argue that Palestine, as a state, has acted against Israel since Hamas is the party in power. If accusations that Iran has been empowering Hezbollah are true, then one could also say Iran has acted against Israel.

Same as one could argue that since Americans voted for the Republicans, they're responsible for the foreign policy that's being carried out in the middle east. And if Iran have been empowering Hezbollah, you're country helped fund the IRA.

Either way, a country harboring a terrorist organization is supporting that group and has to answer for that. If Lebanon were good neighbors they would march their troops down to the border and start helping Israel remove Hezbollah. Israel has been asking for that for years and Lebanon has refused. Why?

I dunno. Me I think it's because of the tension between arabs and jews, maybe they still don't recognise Israel as a State and would rather side with the Palestinian cause. I'm not Lebanese so I don't really know.

 

[Famine]

If it's War - then why are so many civilians dead and what are the objectives?

Remember The Blitz?

 

[a6m5]

One could also argue that Palestine, as a state, has acted against Israel since Hamas is the party in power. If accusations that Iran has been empowering Hezbollah are true, then one could also say Iran has acted against Israel.

Same as one could argue that since Americans voted for the Republicans, they're responsible for the foreign policy that's being carried out in the middle east. And if Iran have been empowering Hezbollah, you're country helped fund the IRA.

It's gonna be case by case, but I think FoolKiller is correct. If the people democratically vote in an terrorist organization to be in charge of their government, then it would be never be 100% clear if some act was done as the terrorist, or the government.

Lebanon, of course is a different situation. Hezbollah takes part in the Lebanese government(has seats in parliment or something), but is an separate organization.

 

[KSaiyu]

Remember The Blitz?

Yes, but that had an objective. I can't really see what this is accomplishing, apart from pissing arabs off and rallying more to the terrorists side.

It's gonna be case by case, but I think FoolKiller is correct. If the people democratically vote in an terrorist organization to be in charge of their government, then it would be never be 100% clear if some act was done as the terrorist, or the government.

Ya, I suppose Palestinians still feel that action is going to reinforce their point more than democracy (which is understandable, although this will bring more problems to the cause).

 

[Swift]

Thanks for that. I had no idea. But let me ask you this; This news comes out like 3 years after the invasion, right? And you are trying to convince me that this was the reason for the invasion of Iraq, all along? Have you noticed that their(people in favor of that invasion) story has been changing from the very beginning? That's like me murdering somebody, after three years in prison, they found child porn on the dead guy's computer and me claiming(3 years later) that was the reason why I took him out.

Good find by FoolKiller though. Sorry I missed it.

You've heard of classified information right? We can't get all the info about any military operation at any givine time. I'm sure the USA has scores of military operations every year we DON'T know about.

Bush said among other things we're going in because of WMD's and Terrorist funding. That was the evidence for such actions. Now, if you think that's not reason enough for the invasion fine, but you can't say he lied about why he went in.

Sure, but it's Hezbollah that is firing the missiles, not the Lebenese. They have to come up with a better way than killing civilians if they want to get their kidnapped soldier back, but because of their no negotiation stance I guess that's all they can think of (I personally believe negotiating would admit that Israel is holding a few innocent prisoners and they aren't willing to show this, but we'll never know that).

They're not targeting civilians. how many times do we have to say that. Also, Hezbollah has a part in the Lebenese government does it not? Does that not directly connect the Lebenese government to Hezbollah? It's not a perfect solution and I don't like the fact of non military people being killed. But I DO like Israel's policy on it and I wish the USA had a more "Speak softly and carry a big stick" policy as well.

 

[a6m5]

Now, if you think that's not reason enough for the invasion fine,

There were million reasons to go into Iraq. I don't agree with them, but if you are talking about "reasons", there were plenty. If that is the logic, why aren't we invading half the world?

but you can't say he lied about why he went in.

But the administration did lie about this.

 

[Swift]

But the administration did lie about this.

They kept the confidenctial information confidential. Being a former military employee, I understand the serioiusness of keeping the secret stuff secret. You can't devuldge certain information during military activites or you comprimise their effectivness. Now for whatever reason, these documents were classified and not availible until recently. But they do prove that Bush wasn't blowing smoke about terrorism connections and WMD's. That's all I'm saying.

Back to Israel beating up on the terrorists...

 

[Famine]

Remember the Blitz?

Yes, but that had an objective.

Which was? And what was the result?

I can't really see what this is accomplishing, apart from pissing arabs off and rallying more to the terrorists side.

"More"? You mean "more" than stating, as their foreign policy, the obliteration of Israel?

 

[KSaiyu]

They're not targeting civilians. how many times do we have to say that.

The death toll is up to 200 in a week. This is bull**** that they are just hitting strategic targets with no intention of harming civilians.

The bodies of nine people, including six children, were reportedly found in the rubble of a building in Tyre hit by Israeli missiles on Sunday. One report said they had been trying to shelter in the basement.

Just one instance. Collaterall damage my ****ing arse, this is just turning more muslims into extremists and sending them the message that America and Britain don't care when it comes to arabs being killed.

Also, Hezbollah has a part in the Lebenese government does it not? Does that not directly connect the Lebenese government to Hezbollah? It's not a perfect solution and I don't like the fact of non military people being killed. But I DO like Israel's policy on it and I wish the USA had a more "Speak softly and carry a big stick" policy as well.

Well I don't agree with thier policy and how they're allowed to get away with it, I'd much rather they follow this route:

The way to a restoration of peace, therefore, might lie through the door to Damascus. The aim would be to get some arrangement under which Hezbollah is restrained in southern Lebanon, thereby allowing the Israelis to stop their campaign. It is not possible to rely on the Lebanese government to deploy the Lebanese army in the south. - taken from a news site

That way they MAY have the backing of the Lebanese people (continually bombing them is damaging relations), get rid of Hezbollah and maybe come to a bargain.

Honestly though, what do you see coming out of bombing civilians (irrelevant if they're being targetted, 200 are dead) other than resentment and more people hating Israel?

Which was? And what was the result?

If you mean the London blitz, it was to demoralise us and hit the industrial East End, even though it in fact made us more determined to take him down.

"More"? You mean "more" than stating, as their foreign policy, the obliteration of Israel?

I mean more people wanting to blow themselves and a busfull of children up in Jerusalem. There will always be people wanting the obliteration of Israel, this just adds to the cause.

EDIT: Wrong button

 

[Danoff]

And you are trying to convince me that this was the reason for the invasion of Iraq, all along? Have you noticed that their(people in favor of that invasion) story has been changing from the very beginning?

It's quite simple (and I haven't changed my story on this, though the president has). The reason and the justification are separate. The reason we went to war is because we wanted to do some nation building in a region that's not particularly friendly to us. That doesn't justify anything, that's just our motivation. The justification comes from the fact that Iraq attacked Kuwait. We kicked them back into their country and signed an agreement with them. They violated the terms of that agreement, so all bets are off, we're back at war.

It really is as simple as that, and I've stated all of this over a year or two ago in one of the many Iraq threads. The Iraq situation does have some bearing on the discussion at hand, but I'm already sorry I brought it up (did I bring it up?). If you want to talk about Iraq some more let's take it to another thread, but this is the proper framework for the argument. Ignore what the president thinks will sell with the American people and read what I wrote above.

The death toll is up to 200 in a week. This is bull**** that they are just hitting strategic targets with no intention of harming civilians.

How many times are you going to repeat yourself? This line of reasoning has been defeated every time you bring it up, and you continue to state it as though it's ironclad.

 

[Swift]

KSaiyu, name one military conflitict on a national scale that didn't have collateral damage. Name just one.

 

[KSaiyu]

Because everytime I repeat myself it goes up, and I don't see it as defeated just because you don't agree with it. You still don't explain your reasoning as to why this should be allowed and ordinary Lebanese people should be killed for no involvement to Hezbollah at all? Continue taking out Hezbollah's rocket attacks sure, but can they stop ****ing hitting civilians for a few hours? I HATE how there's no condemnation to this and they're allowed to get away with it, it's not ****ing defending itself anymore.

If it wants to be recognised as a peaceful, freedom loving state, then start acting like one and taking a hold of the damn situation. This past week there's been no damn difference between them and Hezbollah, no matter how you try and defend them.

KSaiyu, name one military conflitict on a national scale that didn't have collateral damage. Name just one.

I can't, but I don't bloody class this as collateral damage and anyone with half a brain should see it for what it is.

 

[Danoff]

If it wants to be recognised as a peaceful, freedom loving state, then start acting like one and taking a hold of the damn situation.

They are. Peaceful, freedom loving states are willing to kill to defend their people.

This past week there's been no damn difference between them and Hezbollah, no matter how you try and defend them.

I'll repeat (for the last time) my defeat of your line of reasoning. If Israel wanted to kill civilians, the numbers would be astronomical. It's easy to wipe out civilians, what's hard is wiping out terrorists without killing any civilians. If Israel is trying to kill civilians they're doing a piss-poor job.

 

[Omnis]

They arrange flights at the last minute, to take advantage of cancellations and reduced prices.

"I wondered why it's been so hard to find flights," he said.


I kid you not.

Is it safe to say that opposites do, in fact, attract? 3 Cheers for Famine's friend.

Anyway, I need to read up on this whole hesbo-lesbo racket. What initially triggered this conflict, anyway?

 

[Swift]

If it wants to be recognised as a peaceful, freedom loving state, then start acting like one and taking a hold of the damn situation. This past week there's been no damn difference between them and Hezbollah, no matter how you try and defend them.

KSaiyu, you really don't understand how things go do you? Especially when you are next to nations and governments that SUPPORT terrorism of your country.

Of course there's no difference in the actual action. The difference is the motivation and execution for such action. To say the Israel was unprovoked is a lie. To say that Israel could just sit down and talk with these people is beyond naive.

I can't, but I don't bloody class this as collateral damage and anyone with half a brain should see it for what it is.

So...When the US bombed the mess out of Afganastan(whose government supported the taliban) we were just killing civilians because?

 

[KSaiyu]

They are. Peaceful, freedom loving states are willing to kill to defend their people.

Exactly, which is why Israel isn't one.

I'll repeat (for the last time) my defeat of your line of reasoning. If Israel wanted to kill civilians, the numbers would be astronomical. It's easy to wipe out civilians, what's hard is wiping out terrorists without killing any civilians. If Israel is trying to kill civilians they're doing a piss-poor job.

There's a difference between killing to prove a point, and wiping out everyone, it's not just black and white.

I'd love some updated figures on how many terrorists have been killed compared to how many Lebanese have in less than a week. Maybe then people will see this for what it is.

 

[Danoff]

There's a difference between killing to prove a point, and wiping out everyone, it's not just black and white.

Ok, so you think Israel is killing civilians to get back at terrorists? That's got to be one of the du... ok... look... think about that for a second.

I'd love some updated figures on how many terrorists have been killed compared to how many Lebanese have in less than a week. Maybe then people will see this for what it is.

They won't help you. You keep pointing to the numbers as if they prove your point, but they work against you. If the civilian casualties were above 5k at this point I might be on your side.

 

[KSaiyu]

KSaiyu, you really don't understand how things go do you? Especially when you are next to nations and governments that SUPPORT terrorism of your country.

We had to cope with the IRA, and even have to live in the same nation as people who support terrorism against the country they live in! (See the recent polls of British muslims who supported the 7/7 bombers) So it's fair to say I do know a bit about it.

Of course there's no difference in the actual action. The difference is the motivation and execution for such action. To say the Israel was unprovoked is a lie. To say that Israel could just sit down and talk with these people is beyond naive.

I'm not saying that, I posted in italics what I think they should consider, which was from the BBC website.

So...When the US bombed the mess out of Afganastan(whose government supported the taliban) we were just killing civilians because?

No, that had an objective (even though it's made things worse) and there was collatarel damage. The US wasn't just bombing civilians in the same regard as the Israelis.

Ok, so you think Israel is killing civilians to get back at terrorists? That's got to be one of the du... ok... look... think about that for a second.

Yeah well, looks like it to me and the people who are suffering because of them.

They won't help you. You keep pointing to the numbers as if they prove your point, but they work against you. If the civilian casualties were above 5k at this point I might be on your side.

of course it would help! What's the point bombing if they don't take a proportianate number of militants out?! No, we'll just carry on bombing infrastructure, no matter who's in the way - we sent leaflets! We're covered! 👍

Ahh double posted again. Sorry :/

 

[Danoff]

Yeah well, looks like it to me and the people who are suffering because of them.

Just stop for a second and think about what you're assuming about Israel. You're assuming they're complete idiots, bloodthirsty murderous idiots.

of course it would help! What's the point bombing if they don't take a proportianate number of militants out?!

You mean like removing the infrastructure from the terrorists so that they're less mobile/can't escape/can't organize/can't get ammunition/cant' get food or housing or...

No I guess I can't think of a single reason to bomb if it isn't purely for the sake of killing the enemy.

 

[Swift]

We had to cope with the IRA, and even have to live in the same nation as people who support terrorism against the country they live in! (See the recent polls of British muslims who supported the 7/7 bombers) So it's fair to say I do know a bit about it.

I'm NOT trying to downplay 7/7. But I could use the same line of reasoning about 9/11 in the states. But, France and Spain, much like Canada and Mexico are NOT trying to wipe England and all it's inhabitants out of existance.

I'm not saying that, I posted in italics what I think they should consider, which was from the BBC website.

And I think that's a foolish thing to do.

No, that had an objective (even though it's made things worse) and there was collatarel damage. The US wasn't just bombing civilians in the same regard as the Israelis.

But...it did kill civilians. How is it different? Infact, it probably killed more civilians then we're talking about now.

 

[KSaiyu]

Just stop for a second and think about what you're assuming about Israel. You're assuming they're complete idiots, bloodthirsty murderous idiots.

Very clever in fact, murderous as well.

You mean like removing the infrastructure from the terrorists so that they're less mobile/can't escape/can't organize/can't get ammunition/cant' get food or housing or...

It's excessive and it's honestly just going to strengthen Hezbollah and weaked Lebanon and it's economy. This would be the equivalent to us bombing the whole of South Ireland, because the IRA use the bridges/roads/hospitals. It's stupid and plainly going too far.

No I guess I can't think of a single reason to bomb if it isn't purely for the sake of killing the enemy.

I can, they are equating the country of Lebanon to Hezbollah.

I'm NOT trying to downplay 7/7. But I could use the same line of reasoning about 9/11 in the states. But, France and Spain, much like Canada and Mexico are NOT trying to wipe England and all it's inhabitants out of existance.

I never said you were downplaying it, and aren't you agreeing with me on that statement about France and Spain not wiping England out???? I don't understand.

And I think that's a foolish thing to do.

lol, just carry on killing the Lebanese then until theres nothing left

But...it did kill civilians. How is it different? Infact, it probably killed more civilians then we're talking about now.

Yes it did, but this has been in 6 days and Hezbollah has a different position in Lebanon