Israel and Lebanon

[magburner]

I should hope not. I should hope that you like the terrorist actions LESS than the actions Israel is taking.

Obviously.

Israel is taking care to avoid civilian casualties and simply cutoff supplies and transportion to the terrorists. The response against Israel has been to blindly lob explosives at their civilians. See a difference? I sure do.

I see it, but there have been over 60 Lebanese deaths (including two whole families) to Israel's one so far.

I don't think Israel is in any danger of that. The rest of them can't control their nations well enough to stop terrorism, so I'd guess that they're pretty close to anarchy anyway.

Killing terrorists is easy, stopping the causes of terroism is a lot harder. Kill one guy, and another will take his place. Terrorism is non-ending, to defeat it you have to take away the causes, not the leadership.

 

[Danoff]

I see it, but there have been over 60 Lebanese deaths (including two whole families) to Israel's one so far.

That doesn't mean much. How many of those deaths were militants? How many of those deaths were intentional? One of the big mistakes people make is to equate collateral damage with intended damage - it really isn't the same thing.

Killing terrorists is easy, stopping the causes of terroism is a lot harder. Kill one guy, and another will take his place. Terrorism is non-ending, to defeat it you have to take away the causes, not the leadership.

Kill enough of them and the problem is solved.

 

[magburner]

The thing that interests me is what happens if the Israeli soldiers are killed? Will Israel level Lebanon?

 

[Poverty]

Kill enough of them and the problem is solved.

Comeon we both know magburner is right

The response against Israel has been to blindly lob explosives at their civilians. See a difference? I sure do.

Israel is the aggressor, and so why the hell should the enemy play fair? Can you tell me that? If someone invaded my country and I didnt have the means to hurt theyre army I will hit them in any other way possible, and hard.

I bet a certain government somewhere is happy that theyre dirty work is being taken care off, but I can only see things escalating. I might have been wrong on alot of things in the other thread, but I will stand by my original statement that Israel are in the wrong this time.

 

[Danoff]

Israel is the aggressor, and so why the hell should the enemy play fair? Can you tell me that? If someone invaded my country and I didnt have the means to hurt theyre army I will hit them in any other way possible, and hard.

And when they were firing rockets into Israel prior to all of this? Is Israel still the agressor then?

Responding to kidnapping of soldiers, terrorist activities, and explosives being lobbed into your country doesn't make you the agressor. Not that being agressive with nations with populations largely bent on the destruction of your nation and the genocide of your race is a bad thing.

 

[Poverty]

And when they were firing rockets into Israel prior to all of this? Is Israel still the agressor then?

Responding to kidnapping of soldiers, terrorist activities, and explosives being lobbed into your country doesn't make you the agressor.

when a british man attempted a coup in africa I dont see africans invading britain. I dont see britain invading pakistan when terrorists blew up the tube.

The government didnt kidnap or plant terrorists in israel, so why should a entire country have to suffer for the actions of a couple men.

This reeks of double standards.

 

[Danoff]

when a british man attempted a coup in africa I dont see africans invading britain. I dont see britain invading pakistan when terrorists blew up the tube.

The government didnt kidnap or plant terrorists in israel, so why should a entire country have to suffer for the actions of a couple men.

This reeks of double standards.

It's a little different when the terrorists actually comprise either most or part of the government of the boardering nations. The refusal to deal with, or the support of, terrorist activities is what makes both governments guilty. It's like I said earlier, the first step from these nations should be to condemn the terrorism and expend their own military to find and kill these terrorists. They should offer their support to Israel during its campaign to defend itself rather than cry that they're not responsible for the actions of a terrorist group with significant representation in, or even control of, their government.

This is rediculous. Israel has been attacked, they're responding harshly while attempting to minimize civilian casualties. What's the problem?

 

[magburner]

This is rediculous. Israel has been attacked, they're responding harshly while attempting to minimize civilian casualties. What's the problem?

It's not how things are supposed to be done, thats the problem. There was no diplomacy before the action took place, and many people can't get over the fact that Israel's thinly veiled attempts at protecting its borders ammount to nothing more than collective punishment on the Lebanese people. Many of the targets attacked by Israel were chosen to create economic and social hardships. I will remain cynical of Israel's motives until it stops attacking civillian infrastructure.

Here is another point. Israel has been quoted as saying that it will turn the clocks back twenty years in the Lebanon. Is that statement any more acceptable than Iran saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map? I don't think so.

 

[Fonce Diablo]

I just heard this on CNN...

A missile fired at an Israeli warship missed, and hit an Egyptian ship nearby.

...hmm, what's that noise? Is that a domino falling?

 

[Danoff]

I will remain cynical of Israel's motives until it stops attacking civillian infrastructure.

Civilian and terrorist infrastructure are the same. As long as civilians themsevles aren't targetted I have no problems.

Israel has been quoted as saying that it will turn the clocks back twenty years in the Lebanon. Is that statement any more acceptable than Iran saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map? I don't think so.

If Israelis had attacked Iran, kidnapped soldiers, bombed their civilians and were continually launching explosives at Iranian families... I think it would be similar. As it is now? No it's quite different. One statement amounts to a retaliation for attacks, the other statement is pure unadulterated hatred for a race/religion and is a call for ethnic cleansing.

 

[magburner]

I just heard this on CNN...

A missile fired at an Israeli warship missed, and hit an Egyptian ship nearby.

...hmm, what's that noise? Is that a domino falling?

Hmmm... I just heard on Newsnight that there were reports that one of Israels most advanced warships had been hit by a drone packed with explosives. The ship was reportedly severly damaged, and was limping back to an Israeli port. Maybe these are the same stories?

Civilian and terrorist infrastructure are the same. As long as civilians themsevles aren't targetted I have no problems.

How are they? civillians use the roads, civillians use the airport, or at least they did before they were destroyed. Directly or indeirctly, civillians will be the ultimate victims of this ongoing struggle.

Here, have a look what Lebanese bloggers think of the current crisis. It might surprise you... BeirutSpring.com

 

[Danoff]

How are they? civillians use the roads, civillians use the airport

I'll tell you how. Terrorists use the roads, terrorists use the airport. Civilian and Terrorist infrastructure are the same.

 

[a6m5]

I agree with both danoff and magburner. I think Israel is way overreacting, at the same time, I think the Lebanese government is at fault for letting Hezbollah roam free in their country.

Didn't all this start over the ambush and kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers? It most definitely is an overkill. I think the firing of katyusha rocket into the towns in Israel started as the retaliation to ISD(Israeli Defense Force) attack of Lebanese civilian targets.

 

[ledhed]

I agree with both danoff and magburner. I think Israel is way overreacting, at the same time, I think the Lebanese government is at fault for letting Hezbollah roam free in their country.

Didn't all this start over the ambush and kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers? It most definitely is an overkill. I think the firing of katyusha rocket into the towns in Israel started as the retaliation to ISD(Israeli Defense Force) attack of Lebanese civilian targets.

right......so by your logic...hizbolla kidnapped israels soldiers and then fired rockets and missiles ....at last cont over 130 ...into ISRAEL ..because Israel attacked Lebenese targets...

So why is hizbolla attacking Israel if they are not retaliating for Lebenon ? Why are they in Lebenon attacking anyone ? Why are they part of the Lebanese government?

after they kidnapped the soldiers they wanted some fireworks to celibrate ?

How do YOU react after your city is bombarded ? What happens when YOUR house is hit by rockets or missiles ?

 

[a6m5]

right......so by your logic...hizbolla kidnapped israels soldiers and then fired rockets and missiles ....at last cont over 130 ...into ISRAEL ..because Israel attacked Lebenese targets...

So why is hizbolla attacking Israel if they are not retaliating for Lebenon ? Why are they in Lebenon attacking anyone ? Why are they part of the Lebanese government?

after they kidnapped the soldiers they wanted some fireworks to celibrate ?

How do YOU react after your city is bombarded ? What happens when YOUR house is hit by rockets or missiles ?

It's not my logic and please don't think I'm taking anyone's side here. Again, this is how I understood things unfolded:

1) Hezbollah ambushes Israelis patrolling the border. Long story short, kidnaps 2 soldiers in hopes of using them as a bargaining chip to demand the release of their prisoners from Israel.

2) Israel goes on the attack. Starts bombing civilian targets(yes, terrorists used those airports, etc. as well, but so did everybody else), sealing Lebanese sea lanes.

3) Hezbollah fires rockets at Israeli towns in retaliation to the Israeli attack of Lebanese civilian targets.

ledhed, I'm not trying to be a smartass or anti-Israel(I don't like anybody there ). I was under the impression that was the order it went down. You seem to think that Israeli is fighting to stop the Lebanese/Hesbollah attack, while in reality, Israel has turned a border skirmish into a near-full scale war.

In my opinion, one party is overreacting to a firefight at the border between two military groups. That one party decided to start killing civilians and it wasn't the Hezbollah or Lebanon.

 

[YSSMAN]

It's not how things are supposed to be done, thats the problem. There was no diplomacy before the action took place, and many people can't get over the fact that Israel's thinly veiled attempts at protecting its borders ammount to nothing more than collective punishment on the Lebanese people. Many of the targets attacked by Israel were chosen to create economic and social hardships. I will remain cynical of Israel's motives until it stops attacking civillian infrastructure.

Here is another point. Israel has been quoted as saying that it will turn the clocks back twenty years in the Lebanon. Is that statement any more acceptable than Iran saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map? I don't think so.

The problem is, DIPLOMACY doesn't work in this situation. Israel has put up with enough "poking" as I like to call it from the folks in not only Palestine, but also Lebanon, Syria and Iran as well. Israel has had ENOUGH, and they are going to take care of their situation the way they see fit.

...Granted, it may have gone overboard at the start, but now that rockets are being lobbed into Israel and their own Navy is being attacked by millitants, is this not a cause for war?

Take for example if people were crossing the border from Canada to the US to blow themselves up on a regular basis, and the same was happening from Mexico as well. Eventually it gets to the points where they are lobbing rockets into America and killing innocent people, does the United States not have a right to attack these millitants who are killing American citizens?

I'm sure England would act much the same way if the same was being done from France or any other nation, even if the particular group was not a state-sponsored group of millitants.

Israel is defending itself much like ANY nation should in a situation like this. To defeat a negative action, occasionally another negative action may have to take place. There isn't any room for diplomacy in this situation, as it has proven over, and over, and over again that it doesn't work, as most times it is a temporary fix.

---

However, I do agree with your second point. Lebanon has been a quasi-ally to the United States since it's turn twards democracy afer Israel and Syria had left. Turning the clock back does nothing for the progress the US has created, but it also does little to help the seeds of democracy grow in the Middle East.

If anything, Iran is worse, and I have a inkling that they may be behind part of what is going on. Have we seen the worst of what could happen? I doubt it, as the possibility of Iran getting involved will make the entire situation much more complicated.

 

[a6m5]

I gotta look into that incident where the drone hit the Israeli ship. Pretty impressive. I wonder about the capability of this ship, if it had chance of downing the drone at all.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Well, it was a US-designed and built ship. I would think it would have, but it probably doesn't have all the gizmos ours do these days.

 

[magburner]

I'll tell you how. Terrorists use the roads, terrorists use the airport. Civilian and Terrorist infrastructure are the same.

Thats a ludicrous statement, and you know it! The civillian infrastructure was made for civillian use hence the designation 'civillian infrastructure'. If the roads, bridges, power stations, and airports were created for the sole purpose of the terrorists and their cause, then they could be called 'terrorist infrastructure'.

Why are they [Hezbollah] part of the Lebanese government?

Why? I'm sure it would seem obvious - democracy! With democracy everyone no matter how unsavoury, has the right to take part in a nation's Legislative process if they have been democratically elected.

Let me clear one thing up though. The Lebanese government is not run by Hezbollah. It is too easy to bandy round claims that the Lebanese people and government are pro-Hezbollah just because the terrorists have a place in the government. Hezbollah never won a landslide victory in the elections (not like Hamas did in the Gaza Strip), and from my investigations I have found that they only hold two actual positions in the government (out of a total of twenty-five) - Energy and Water, and Labour. Also, out of a total of 128 seats in the Lebanese government, The Party of God (Hezbollah) holds only 14 seats. Thats hardly a 'terrorist government'.

I'm sure England would act much the same way if the same was being done from France or any other nation, even if the particular group was not a state-sponsored group of millitants.

Uh, no. The UK, in particularly Northern Ireland has suffered a number of terrorist attacks from the Republican IRA terrorists over the course of more than 30 years. Although the majority of the IRA were based in Northern Ireland, some elements would cross the border from within Eire, attack targets in Northern Ireland, and return again later.

What I'm saying is this; I cannot think of a single instance at all where any UK force crossed the border into Eire, attacked civillian targets, or otherwise laid down any form of martial law in response to the terrorist attacks prefromed by the IRA. No shelling, no airstrikes, no intimidation, nothing.

Take for example if people were crossing the border from Canada to the US to blow themselves up on a regular basis, and the same was happening from Mexico as well. Eventually it gets to the points where they are lobbing rockets into America and killing innocent people, does the United States not have a right to attack these millitants who are killing American citizens?

Yes, of course the USA would have the right to attack the millitants. I'm not disputing the right of Israel to retalliate, I'm disputing the methods they are employing. Attacking civillian targets is the easy option. Syria and Iran are the real orchestrators of this crisis. Israel should be attacking them, and not Lebanon.

Why are we finding it hard to make the distinction between Hezbollah, the elected Lebanese government, and the Lebanese people? Ive proved that the Lebanese government is not run by Hezbollah, and so by default, I have also proved that the majority or Lebanese are not pro-Hezbollah, so why are we still making the assumption that all three are the same?

 

[KSaiyu]

65 civilians dead at least yet people still believe Israel is defending itself....

I hate how so many people think they were the only oppresed people in history and deserve to take retribution to this extremity.

 

[Poverty]

you know if Israel can just wade in anywhere it feels like why did my dad have to go to war because Iraq decided to do the same with Kuwait?

Israel are the aggressors, they dont want peace, and theyre screwing up the lives of whole countries and causing long term damage, yet for some reasons as usual americans seem to be all for it, and the rest of the world is viewing Israel with disgust.

I just dont understand it.

 

[emad]

I'll tell you how. Terrorists use the roads, terrorists use the airport. Civilian and Terrorist infrastructure are the same.

So you'd be ok if someone bombed the airports in YOUR town and took out any major roads for the simple reason that there are potential terrorists about? Doesn't sound all that reasonable to me - terrorists or no.

-- I really should add to this so here's the best I can do in my currently sleep deprived state

I take it the idea of the blockade and bombings is to make the civilians pressure the terrorists to bug out? I'm not sure about you but these guys are pretty demented as it is - they've got an already perverse view on the world and are blind to outside influence. They probably think what they did is in the best interests of the people of Lebanon (who probably think otherwise). These guys are armed and dangerous - would you or anyone else be willing to stand up to them?

 

[ledhed]

I have never once accused the lebanese of having a terrorist government ,
just because hizbolla was elected to represent southern shiites .
But I will say lebenon is responsible for what the hizbolla militia is doing in Southern Lebenon .

A6m5...look dont even attempt to minimize the kidnapping of two soldiers from accross the border by a Lebanese militia..hizbolla..it is in all ways an act of war . And Israel has the right to use all neccessary force to get them back or to punish the people responsible. And firing of hundreds of missiles at Israeli towns and cities is doing nothing but escalating the situation and forcing Israel to do more harm to southern Lebenon .

Now ask yourself why ? Why did hizbolla pick this time to declare war ? They have no hope fighting Israel and have hurt the Palestinian cause immesurably along with their own interest in Lebenon. BUT they still play on .
Remember hizbolla is funded and largly controlled by Iran ( they have even fired Iranian missiles into Israel ) and also has links with Syria. remember the crazy monkey in Iran saying an attack on Syria by Israel is an attack on Iran ?

Please attack Syria . Its the logical course for israel to take...then lets see what monkey boy in Iran hhas up his litlle sleeve , and why he is playing this game . Aside to raise oil prices .

 

[Danoff]

So you'd be ok if someone bombed the airports in YOUR town and took out any major roads for the simple reason that there are potential terrorists about? Doesn't sound all that reasonable to me - terrorists or no.

If terrorists from my country attacked another, and those terrorists had either a significant portion of the government (as is the case in Lebanon) or almost 100% control (as is the casee with the palestinians), AND my country refused to work with the offended nation to find and kill the terrorist groups (due to their representation in the government), I would understand a retaliation against my government in response to a perceived act of war. That retaliation cannot target civilians or it becomes terrorist, but civilian infrastructure is fair game since, even though roads were not built for terrorist activities alone, they are used by terrorists and amount to terrorist infrastructure as well.

Israel are the aggressors, they dont want peace, and theyre screwing up the lives of whole countries and causing long term damage, yet for some reasons as usual americans seem to be all for it, and the rest of the world is viewing Israel with disgust.

Yeah, an "agressive" nation responding to kidnapped soldiers (by Lebanon and Palestinians) and rocket attacks (by Palestinians) and a refusal of the two governments to work with Israel to stamp out these AGRESSIVE acts. Israel is defending itself, no argument about that. They're also defending themselves much more harshly than the force used against them. They're defending themselves agressively, does that make sense to you?

65 civilians dead at least yet people still believe Israel is defending itself....

What the hell kind of lame argument is that?

Why? I'm sure it would seem obvious - democracy! With democracy everyone no matter how unsavoury, has the right to take part in a nation's Legislative process if they have been democratically elected.

That doesn't shelter them from responses to hostile actions.

Uh, no. The UK, in particularly Northern Ireland has suffered a number of terrorist attacks from the Republican IRA terrorists over the course of more than 30 years. Although the majority of the IRA were based in Northern Ireland, some elements would cross the border from within Eire, attack targets in Northern Ireland, and return again later.

Big differences here. If the lebanese government and Hamas (who, lets face it are the palestinians' government), had spoken out against Hezbollah and Hamas (see the conflict of interest?), immediately following the kidnapping/rocket attacks and offered to work with Israel to stamp out Hezbollah and Hamas (still a conflict of interest) then Israel would have no case for many of the actions it is taking. By HARBORING terrorists and SUPPORTING them, by refusing to address the problems presented by Hezbollah or Hamas, the lebanese government and Hamas (still a conflict of interest) are essentially supporting those actions.

This is how it should work. If terrorists from the US went to israel and started kidnapping soldiers (as done by Hezbollah and Hamas prior to the Israeli response), launching explosives at Israeli citizens (as done for months by Hamas prior to the Israeli response), and blowing themselves up in crowed Israeli areas specifically targetting civilians (as done by terrorists from all around). If us terrorists had done all of that in Israel. You'd better believe the the president of our nation would be on televisions around the world offering condolances, condemning the terrorist actions, announcing the steps that we will take to make sure this never happens again, and offer to work with Israel to make that happen.

Did we get even one of those steps? No. Because these terrorists have support in their government, and because their government won't acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and because these governments are impotent to respond against the terrorists within them, partly by choice, and partly due to a fundamental lack of power. As far as I'm concerned, and as far as Israel is concerned that is an act of war. Granted, that's not a blank check to kill civilians, but Israelis aren't terrorists (unlike Hamas or Hezbollah), they're attacking terrorists and terrorist infrastucture while attempting to minimize civilian casualties. But as is always the case when at war, the other guy's civilian casualties are the price to be paid to protect your own people.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

..>...
Remember hizbolla is funded and largly controlled by Iran ( they have even fired Iranian missiles into Israel ) and also has links with Syria. remember the crazy monkey in Iran saying an attack on Syria by Israel is an attack on Iran ?

Please attack Syria . Its the logical course for israel to take...then lets see what monkey boy in Iran hhas up his litlle sleeve , and why he is playing this game . Aside to raise oil prices .

This is exactly what is going to happen. There will be attrition along the border & hezbollah will move into the golan heights, israel will start doing to syria what it is now doing to lebannon. This is not good, but it makes sense to confront any iranian influence exactly on the physical 'borders' asap, before iran has the chance to develop counter-israel weapons.

In the 60s through to the 80s Israel constantly baited its neighbours & pushed for as much territory as possible. They occupied the lebannon, eastern egypt & anyhting resembling palestine. Beirut in the 80s was a word synonymous w/ Order to Chaos; it was an eastern mediterranean paradise & playground of the wealthy turned to shells, rubble & the rule of quarreling militias. The UN had to move in to stabilize the Lebanese state after The US & Israelis were persuaded to leave.

Such persuasions may not work in an era where weaker alignments are simply illegal & 'terrorist'. Israel needs all surrounding nations in a big GHETTOIZED security blanket. Its policies remain from the start, only a little clearer today w/ help; Ghettomaking, Lebensraum und Genocide!

Sieg Heil!

 

[Danoff]

Sieg Heil!

I think that's more appropriately aimed at those who want to systematically kill all jews (ie: Hamas and Hezbollah). If Israel were more like the Arabs they fight, and wanted start ethnic cleansing in the region, they would be currently conducting their military actions quite differently. They have the capability to wipe out orders of magnitude more civilians than they are.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

... They have the capability to wipe out orders of magnitude more civilians than they are.

Who says they won't given that the world's attention can be deflected by a crisis of some sort ( duh )

 

[YSSMAN]

All of this makes me think of a poem:

I

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

II

Eyes I dare not meet in dreams
In death's dream kingdom
These do not appear:
There, the eyes are
Sunlight on a broken column
There, is a tree swinging
And voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.

Let me be no nearer
In death's dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer --

Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom

III

This is the dead land
This is cactus land
Here the stone images
Are raised, here they receive
The supplication of a dead man's hand
Under the twinkle of a fading star.

Is it like this
In death's other kingdom
Waking alone
At the hour when we are
Trembling with tenderness
Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone.

IV

The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms

In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

V

Here we go round the prickly pear
Prickly pear prickly pear
Here we go round the prickly pear
At five o'clock in the morning.

Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

For Thine is the Kingdom

Between the conception
And the creation
Between the emotion
And the response
Falls the Shadow

Life is very long

Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.

 

[KSaiyu]

What the hell kind of lame argument is that?

I'm sorry, it must be just me seeing in the news that they're killing people trying to flee the country in retaliation for 2 kidnapped soldiers. Silly me, I thought that's a bit heavy handed seeing as they bitch and moan when they kill a buss full of people (quite rightly). We don't go out and kill civilians with intent when we fight in wars, so why should Israel be justified in doing that?

Is that lame enough for ya?

 

[Danoff]

I'm sorry, it must be just me seeing in the news that they're killing people trying to flee the country in retaliation for 2 kidnapped soldiers.

Uh, what? They're not targetting civilians. Any civilian damages are collateral, not intentional. There is a HUGE difference.