Best Japanese Car (Final Voting for French Car)

First things first, lets get the French business out of the way. Votes for Best French car come down to three:

The Citroen DS:


The Bugatti Veyron:


The Renault Clio (All Versions):


PLEASE VOTE, YOU HAVE THREE DAYS TO DO SO

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Secondly, we are finially to the Japanese car round. I'm going to reserve my nomination for a bit down the road (I need to go a friend's house), feel free to nominate a car for the list. Must be Japanese, and thats all that matters.

Power to the Veyron.👍

Citroen.

I nominate the Skyline GT-R, and also the Honda Civic

Datsun 240Z.

HONDA ACCORD



Folks, it changed the world. It's been on sale for two and a half decades and it's still the gold standard for the midsize sedan, which is still the largest segment in the United States despite all the SUV popularity. In other words, it's the absolute best in the toughest, most competitive segment. And it's still the best-selling midsize sedan (when you eliminate the Toyota Camry's profitless fleet sales). It also pioneered the success of the Japanese car in America and more recently, the performance hybrid - it was the first hybrid midsize sedan, in fact. It was a trailblazer, and it's still a favorite. The best Japanese car ever made.

I'm voting Citroen DS because I don't want the Veyron to win and the Clio I learnt to drive in wasn't fantastic.

I nominate the Honda NSX for the Japanese car. Senna had a hand in developing it and even 15 or so years after it came onto the market it's been refined and (the NSX-R) is just about as quick around a track as most current supercars, with only 300hp to play with.

amp88

I'm voting Citroen DS because I don't want the Veyron to win and the Clio I learnt to drive in wasn't fantastic.

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See? This is the sort of crap we get. He's not voting for the ugliest car ever made, he's voting against the fastest. Oh well - I have confidence in the Veyron.

M5Power

See? This is the sort of crap we get. He's not voting for the ugliest car ever made, he's voting against the fastest. Oh well - I have confidence in the Veyron.

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There's already been a debate on this in the original thread. The DS is just a better car than the Veyron, there's no doubt about it. The Veyron is an exercise in stupidity, put as much power in a car as possible and make it go 250+ mph. The DS was a car which had actual technical innovations, it wasn't just more of what came before. It was expensive, yes, but within a lot more people's grasp than the Veyron. I voted against the Veyron but my vote for the DS is stronger than against the Veyron.

Also, hyperbole never works. The DS is not the ugliest car ever made. You're sounding like Clarkson now.

edit: Also, you say the Accord is the "gold standard for the midsize sedan" but aren't you forgetting the BMW 3 Series?

amp88

There's already been a debate on this in the original thread. The DS is just a better car than the Veyron, there's no doubt about it. The Veyron is an exercise in stupidity, put as much power in a car as possible and make it go 250+ mph. The DS was a car which had actual technical innovations, it wasn't just more of what came before. It was expensive, yes, but within a lot more people's grasp than the Veyron. I voted against the Veyron but my vote for the DS is stronger than against the Veyron.

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a) all supercars are an exercise in stupidity. The Veyron is no different and no-one can tell me how it is. Let me ask you: in the Italian car thread, which exercise in stupidity did you vote for?

b) the DS had TWO technological advances, both of which were barely advancements in the slightest and neither of which see common use to this day.

c) I still have not heard ONE convincing argument - and no, "load-leveling suspension" is not a convincing argument - why a disgusting ****box with little merit is better than the fastest and quickest vehicle ever sold.

edit: Also, you say the Accord is the "gold standard for the midsize sedan" but aren't you forgetting the BMW 3 Series?

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No - I know in Britain the two vehicles compete but here in the States the 3-series is a "sport sedan" while the Accord (larger than the UK one) is a midsize sedan. The 3-series competes against stuff like the A4 and C-class, while the Accord takes on stuff like the Toyota Camry (think a bigger Avensis), Chevrolet Malibu (think a bigger Vectra), and Ford Fusion (think a bigger Mondeo). And it's better than all of them.

M5Power

a) all supercars are an exercise in stupidity. The Veyron is no different and no-one can tell me how it is. Let me ask you: in the Italian car thread, which exercise in stupidity did you vote for?

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I voted for the Miura, as you know. However, it moved the game on. It forced cars after it to change, is the Veyron forcing other cars to change? The Miura was also mid-engined (that's one advancement for a road car). Name one advancement for the Veyron...

M5Power

b) the DS had TWO technological advances, both of which were barely advancements in the slightest and neither of which see common use to this day.

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How many cars use hydropneumatic suspension?

M5Power

c) I still have not heard ONE convincing argument - and no, "load-leveling suspension" is not a convincing argument - why a disgusting ****box with little merit is better than the fastest and quickest vehicle ever sold.

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I don't think you're being reasonable here. Why are you calling the DS a "disgusting ****box"? One convincing argument is that its suspension saved the life of a President. How many cars can claim that? You say the Veyron is the "fastest and quickest" vehicle ever sold...which is false in itself (Aeroplanes are faster vehicles) but what's the difference between "fastest" and "quickest"?

M5Power

No - I know in Britain the two vehicles compete but here in the States the 3-series is a "sport sedan" while the Accord (larger than the UK one) is a midsize sedan. The 3-series competes against stuff like the A4 and C-class, while the Accord takes on stuff like the Toyota Camry (think a bigger Avensis), Chevrolet Malibu (think a bigger Vectra), and Ford Fusion (think a bigger Mondeo). And it's better than all of them.

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Well, that's a difference in markets but in the UK the 3 Series and Accord are in the same class and the 3 Series is arguably better.

amp88

I voted for the Miura, as you know. However, it moved the game on. It forced cars after it to change, is the Veyron forcing other cars to change? The Miura was also mid-engined (that's one advancement for a road car). Name one advancement for the Veyron...

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a) hydraulics that lower the vehicle at 140mph to ensure stability
b) brakes that can withstand a maximum deceleration of 1.3g without fade and can brake from 252mph in 10 seconds
c) most powerful production car in history
d) fastest production car in history
e) quickest production car in history
f) dual clutch 7-speed sequential manual

Essentially, the vehicle is a hotbed for technology, as all supercars are. And most of that stuff is a lot less marginal than the DS's "technological advancements." And can someone please tell me how the Miura was such a pioneer, when Ford and, most of all, Ferrari, had pioneered mid-engined technology years earlier?

How many cars use hydropneumatic suspension?

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Dunno, maybe eight?

I don't think you're being reasonable here. Why are you calling the DS a "disgusting ****box"? One convincing argument is that its suspension saved the life of a President. How many cars can claim that? You say the Veyron is the "fastest and quickest" vehicle ever sold...which is false in itself (Aeroplanes are faster vehicles) but what's the difference between "fastest" and "quickest"?

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"Quick" refers to acceleration where "fast" refers to top speed.

M5Power

a) hydraulics that lower the vehicle at 140mph to ensure stability
b) brakes that can withstand a maximum deceleration of 1.3g without fade and can brake from 252mph in 10 seconds
c) most powerful production car in history
d) fastest production car in history
e) quickest production car in history
f) dual clutch 7-speed sequential manual

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Those are features, not advancements. The point I'm trying to make (and was made in the original thread) is that nothing on the Veyron is new, it's just existing technology which has been improved on and put together. The DS had features which were entirely new, no matter what you think of their relevance they hadn't come before.

M5Power

Essentially, the vehicle is a hotbed for technology, as all supercars are. And most of that stuff is a lot less marginal than the DS's "technological advancements." And can someone please tell me how the Miura was such a pioneer, when Ford and, most of all, Ferrari, had pioneered mid-engined technology years earlier?

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Lambo had the mid-engined road car whereas the GT40 and Ferraris were racing cars.

M5Power

Dunno, maybe eight?

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The fact is that hundreds of thousands of cars (perhaps millions) have been built with hydropneumatic suspension over the years.

M5Power

"Quick" refers to acceleration where "fast" refers to top speed.

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...? That's not a distinction I've ever seen used.

The honda civic is the bench mark of affordable japanese transpertation. It has been on sale since 1973 and has found wide spread popularity all over the world, Not to mention they're reputation for insane reliability. After 8 generations you cant argue with that.

You can argue about its performance, and I'll admit most arent very sporty... However every civic made between 1988 and 2000 used double wishbones front and rear and until recently have been very light weight giving them a good starting point for enthusiasts.

amp88

Those are features, not advancements. The point I'm trying to make (and was made in the original thread) is that nothing on the Veyron is new, it's just existing technology which has been improved on and put together. The DS had features which were entirely new, no matter what you think of their relevance they hadn't come before.

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So the whole car lowering thing that the Veyron's got is merely existing technology (since so many cars lower at speed ) put together, while the DS's swiveling headlights were, what, the discovery of light? At least the Veyron's advancements are useful to supercars. The DS did invent one thing I will completely give it credit for: being the absolute ugliest vehicle ever. And no car has yet taken that away from it, B9 Tribeca aside.

Lambo had the mid-engined road car whereas the GT40 and Ferraris were racing cars.

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So we agree Lamborghini lifted the design and had nothing to do with its conception?

The fact is that hundreds of thousands of cars (perhaps millions) have been built with hydropneumatic suspension over the years.

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Name a few that aren't French. Go on.

...? That's not a distinction I've ever seen used.

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I think you'll find it's an accurate one.

...Okay, I'm back...

Best Japanese car? It is a very tough one to pick, as there have been many great ones in the past, but I must nominate the Datsun 240Z:



What can be said about the Datsun that hasn't allready been said thousands of times before? It was a car that looked great in 1970, just as it does today in 2006. Performance was quite good at the time, and combined with the cheap price, it made it a very clear-cut success in the United States, and even around the world.

It was the car, I think, that changed the way many Americans felt about Japanese automobiles. They were no-longer cheap alternatives to their American counterparts, they were serious compeditors that could match the performance of the big-kids, and still sell for a cheaper price.

Without the 240Z, we certainly wouldn't have had it's great predecessors, and we would be without the 350Z which continues the rich tradition of the Z-Car heritage. Thus I belive the Datsun 240Z should be crowned the "Best Japanese Car."

I nominate the:

Toyota Camry
New Infiniti M
Lexus/Toyota GS300/Aristo.

Gods, it's tough to chose. Skyline mentioned yet? (obviously) Civic, check. Accord, check. NSX, check (Is it my imagination, or are we dripping in Hondas, here... ...tells you a lot about Honda).

For my vote: Mazda Miata (all versions). I'm not voting for the RX7, because, although it's definitely a unique and innovative car, it doesn't quite have the impact the Miata does on motorsports and enthusiasts in general. Nor the 323/Protege... while I love the car, it can't claim to be the best ever.

The Mazda Miata and the various BMW 3-series have helped kindle the flame of grassroots motorsports worldwide. Even in places where there is no money for racing, you will see Miata races.

It's not a groundbreaking car in any way. Yes, it's a hairdresser's car. But it's sold more than any other convertible on earth, and with a rollcage and sticky tires on stubby fifteen inch wheels, it defines automotive enthusiasm and the whole spirit of the race.

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Yes, I'm a fan-boy... what of it?

I'd also nominate the Datsun 240Z (oops... taken... I type too slow ), the Toyota Corolla (someone's got to do it) and the Mitsubishi Lancer GSR/Evolution (Starion, anyone?)

Toyota Corolla. Cheap, reliable motoring for 30 million people since it's introduction.

jgtc 350z


he said any japanese car- so there is one!

and

the Impreza STI '03

AND- the mazda rx-8 PZ

Ok many main ones have been nominated, so I will nominate the Subaru Impreza in all its forms, Honda S2000, 350Z (road car), Mazda Cosmo (as the first Japanese Rotary powered car).... meh their is so many that will do for now.

Actually I would like to nominate the Prince/Nissan Skyline, as it has a lot of history as a car besides just it's GTR version.

niky

I'd also nominate the Datsun 240Z (oops... taken... I type too slow )

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Actually it was nominated hours before you started typing, unless you take that long to type.

M5Power

So the whole car lowering thing that the Veyron's got is merely existing technology (since so many cars lower at speed ) put together, while the DS's swiveling headlights were, what, the discovery of light? At least the Veyron's advancements are useful to supercars. The DS did invent one thing I will completely give it credit for: being the absolute ugliest vehicle ever. And no car has yet taken that away from it, B9 Tribeca aside.

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The Continental GT lowers at speed and was made before the Veyron. How exactly are the Veyron's achievements useful to supercars?

M5Power

So we agree Lamborghini lifted the design and had nothing to do with its conception?

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Lamborghini adapted the idea from racing and made it work on the road. Why hadn't Ferrari made a mid-engined road car before?

M5Power

Name a few that aren't French. Go on.

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It's been used in Rolls-Royce, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar, Audi and BMWs.

M5Power

I think you'll find it's an accurate one.

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How exactly does "quick" describe acceleration and "fast" describe top speed? The two are synonymous.

We don't need another Veyron vs DS thread. If you wish to continue that discussion, please do it here.

My choice for the best Japanese car is already listed.

amp88

How exactly does "quick" describe acceleration and "fast" describe top speed? The two are synonymous.

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On this point alone, Captain Jarama is right - even though he's malodourously wrong on every other one (it's not the quickest, it's not the fastest, it's not the most powerful, it wasn't any one of those things at launch, the height drop and brakes aren't new - though it's possible that the 7-speed manual DSG 'box is "new").

Quick = acceleration. Fast = speed.


Best Japanese car. Tricky.

Almost all Japanese cars are good at their job - to the point where they're pretty much the gold standard worldwide. The US's top two production cars by sales are Japanese brands. The UK's top three manufacturers for reliability are Japanese.

But to pick out a truely excellent one is nightmarishly hard.
NSX - great car. Honda's Ferrari beater. But Ferrari brought out a new one soon after. Always suffered from a lack of power and the US cars were mainly the 1-second slower automatic, so you'll see a lot of "OMfG! sl000w!" comments.
Skyline - great car. But it's just a big, ugly saloon/saloon-style coupe with a computer ignoring the driver and doing what it thinks is best. It's probably right. Could be tuned to a billion horsepower on stock internals though.
Mazda MX-5/Miata/Eunos Roadster - nukes its sector. Great drivers' car, looks just right (until the Mk3), the whole British roadster package - low power, low weight, perfect handling. But what IS its sector? Low power, low weight soft-tops. A sector occupied by the Lotus Elan S1, Triumph Spitfire, MGB and then nothing else until the MX-5 came along. It was an answer to a question no-one asked, and almost everything about it was a copy of another car. Now mainly bought by women/homosexuals because it looks cute, rather than for its unquestionable handling which they'll never exploit.
GTO - A really fat Skyline.
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution - very fast, very practical, abominably ugly, extremely tacky. The motoring equivalent of a chest wig. Besides which, it too is a copy (more on that later).
Honda Accord - Nice car, shame about the Mondeo/Vectra/3-series.
Toyota Supra - A Skyline without the computer, or the inclination not to kill you when it rains. I love them - the MkIV is one of the great motoring shapes and literally came out of nowhere from a company designing clones and wedges for 40 years. Showed, for almost the first time (along with the NSX and RX-7 two years previously) that the Japanese weren't just good copiers.
Subaru SVX - awesome car. But just a really fat, really slow GTO.
Mazda MX-3 V6 - No question about it. [/Thread]

Only joking.

Toyota Corolla - Enough sales to ensure that every man, woman and child on Earth has four each. Can't argue with that. Though they're almost all unutterably bland and attract the vast population of dullards and old people who don't know and don't want to know anything about driving. You can guarantee that there'll be some "OMFG!!!1one!!eleven! AE86 FTW!!11one teh dr1ft1n is teh c0l keiichi is god" votes though.
Toyota pod - I like it. Okay? Get lost.
Datsun 240/260/280Z - Can't afford an E-Type? Have a box-based clone! Three words. Trying. Too. Hard.
Mazda RX-7/RX-8 - Rotary = innovative. But, like Porsche's persistance with RR, there's a reason everyone else stopped trying. Yes, the 7 was very, very pretty indeed, though the 8 isn't, but a car you have to rebuild the engine of every 70,000 miles cannot be a great.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to draw a conclusion I don't want to, because I don't like it.

It's a four-door saloon (with a coupe variant). It's practical - 5 proper seats and a boot. It's reliable. It's fast - oh so very fast. After the Ford Transit, it's the vehicle most commonly used in robberies and ram-raids - like the S-Type 30 years before, the police bought them as the only things they could use to catch them. It resurrected WORLD interest in the World Rally Championship, in the post-Group-B lull, and took it back from blokes with beards, Thermos flasks and cagoules standing in a wet Welsh forest at 4am to be showered with gravel, putting it from once a year on the TV to the full season with anal graphics. They've even, more recently, fixed the dreadful interiors so common with the Japanese cars.

It has to be...

The Subaru Impreza.

*runs off for a shower*

There are so many great japanese cars I dont even know where to begin. The evo deserves a honourable mention though.

The Toyota 2000GT - record breaker, innovator and a beautiful car.

As well as proving to the world (and to the Japanese people too!) that Japan didn't just make boxy, practical cars and could compete with the Italian sports cars visually, the 2000GT also packed a punch with 200hp in race-spec. Breaking over 10 world records and finishing 1-2 in it's first race, powered by the start of the Toyota "M" engine series, this car was a legendary competitor, and was the granddaddy of the great Japanese GT sports cars to come.

Not to mention it was a Bond car.

I'm with KSaiyu, the 2000GT is both an icon and a record breaker.

Good decision Famine...
Well, really hard to vote for me as a fan of Japanese cars... I could give you a TOP10 with random order, but the best ? No...

This is a tough one, isn't it?

I was sure this was going to turn into "Skyline GTR and Supra Fanboy Fest 2006," and thankfully it hasn't happened yet. I personally think they are pretty overrated models in general, in particular the GTR, but thats just me.

Anyone up for some vintage Celica action?


Yeah, thats the ol' Celica 1600 GT, a good nom IMO. Although it didn't do a lot for the Japanese car industry as a whole, by God is it a nice looking car. My Uncle Ty had one when he was in High School (would have been about 1978-ish), and he still talks about it to this day.

I nominate the Daihatsu Cuore and the Mazda Bongo Friendee.

How about the Honda S500 then...