Best Japanese Car (Final Voting for French Car)

[Eric.]

Famine, about the TKR...Barabus claims that 0-60 time (which seems pretty hard to do with road tires and only RWD) and 270mph top speed (and what tires are capable of going that fast on the road?) but have not been proven.

And since the S7 1000TT was mentioned, I'd like to ask why there haven't been any tests or news about it? All I've heard is that it was going to be produced, but that was quite a while ago.

 

[Famine]

Famine, about the TKR...Barabus claims that 0-60 time (which seems pretty hard to do with road tires and only RWD) and 270mph top speed (and what tires are capable of going that fast on the road?) but have not been proven.

Neither has the "estimated time of 2.5s" for the Veyron. I figure if we're going to allow one set of estimates...

In actual fact, outside the single 253mph run at Nardo, neither has the Veyron's top speed - just like the old Jaguar E-Type's "150mph". For some reason, VAG are very reluctant to allow any kind of testing of the Veyron at all...

 

[Eric.]

Neither has the "estimated time of 2.5s" for the Veyron. I figure if we're going to allow one set of estimates...

In actual fact, outside the single 253mph run at Nardo, neither has the Veyron's top speed - just like the old Jaguar E-Type's "150mph". For some reason, VAG are very reluctant to allow any kind of testing of the Veyron at all...

Sure, but that is nearly a second faster than the Veyron with equal power and half the traction. The Veyron's at least sounds possible.

 

[Tornado]

Neither has the "estimated time of 2.5s" for the Veyron. I figure if we're going to allow one set of estimates...

I would chalk the Barabus up to "Vector Syndrome," personally.

In actual fact, outside the single 253mph run at Nardo, neither has the Veyron's top speed - just like the old Jaguar E-Type's "150mph". For some reason, VAG are very reluctant to allow any kind of testing of the Veyron at all...

Didn't the same apply to the Maccy F1, though?

 

[Famine]

Sure, but that is nearly a second faster than the Veyron with equal power and half the traction. The Veyron's at least sounds possible.

And half the weight and a two thirds of the transmission losses...

The Ariel Atom 300 bests the fastest-recorded Veyron launch with less than a third of the power and half the traction. And a quarter of the weight. I've seen a video of an electric Atom (read: 200kg weight penalty) pulling an 11.1s quarter mile - compared to the Veyron's 10.8 "estimate".

Didn't the same apply to the Maccy F1, though?

With regards to the top speed... Probably. Though they at least took a few down the local race track (or "Le Mans").

Don't forget also - if a Veyron, McLaren F1 and Koenigsegg CCS (not even the CCX) were idly driving along and encountered each other, the Veyron would stop accelerating first as, without the one-shot top speed setting, it's limited to 230mph. Though it'd be a few seconds ahead at that point.

I would chalk the Barabus up to "Vector Syndrome," personally.

You're probably right - though Vector is nearer to the Veyron in that it would actually do outlandish speeds (for the day) but they wouldn't let anyone independantly verify it. They claimed 230mph from the W2 in the 1980s...

 

[KSaiyu]

Possibly one of the best looking Japanese cars (that isn't just a Jaguar E-type clone)

I saw that!

 

[Tornado]

Don't forget also - if a Veyron, McLaren F1 and Koenigsegg CCS (not even the CCX) were idly driving along and encountered each other, the Veyron would stop accelerating first as, without the one-shot top speed setting, it's limited to 230mph. Though it'd be a few seconds ahead at that point.

I thought the F1 used to set the record used an engine with the rev limiter disabled, though. And can't you pay to have the Veyron delimited on the track?

 

[Famine]

I thought the F1 used to set the record used an engine with the rev limiter disabled, though. And can't you pay to have the Veyron delimited on the track?

As far as I'm aware, no. The speed setting requires the car to change its aerodynamics and suspension settings, by means of a second key - which I believe must be inserted at rest. As soon as you back off the throttle at all, the car resets to the standard configuration.

 

[JCE]

Ok enough with the French cars. Let the votes tell the tale. Let's get on to the Japanese shall we?

Oh, I almost ... ALMOST voted for the Honda Civic (no really I did), but after thinking about it the 240Z is what I chose. I believe it is what changed the Japanese auto industry as a whole because it caused the sales of not only Datsun/Nissan to increase by a huge margin but Japanese cars in general started getting the respect and admiration they well deserved. Imagine how the Japanese car industry would be today without the 240Z. I don't even want to imagine. That's like asking yourself what the German car industry would be without the Beetle or the 911.

The 2000GT is a great car and a good choice, as is the 300ZX, but in the end you just can't forget the original Z.

I mean Jesus H Christ look how beautiful this thing is...even by today's standards:

I would sell one of my kidneys for one just like this in decent running shape with no rust.

 

[Jay]

As far as I'm aware, no.

From what I have read (Wiki I think) the Mclaren F1 made 231mph in dead standard configuration and in testing with some mild modifications like increased rev limiter and polished undertray they made 240mph in the XP5 Mclaren.

As soon as you back off the throttle at all, the car resets to the standard configuration.

Wow sounds dangerous traveling up to 250mph then back off and the car suddenly changes configuration, it would have to get below a set speed I would imagine first.

 

[IMADreamer]

As far as I'm aware, no. The speed setting requires the car to change its aerodynamics and suspension settings, by means of a second key - which I believe must be inserted at rest. As soon as you back off the throttle at all, the car resets to the standard configuration.

It was my understanding the car stayed in "insanely stupid top speed mode" until you told it not to by pushing a button. Having it revert back instantly is insanely stupid and I wouldn't think they would do that.

Anyway, I am torn on what to nominate. I am not overly passionate about any one Japanese car but I think there are many great ones. I was thinking about what I would nominate for this thread the other day and I think I settled on the Miata. It's such a great drives car and for cheap too. There aren't many cars like it in the world and it really has become somewhat legendary.

 

[YSSMAN]

You guys are still blathering on and on about the DS and Veyron? All I can say is get over it... They are both great cars, and both deserve their own spots in the world's greatest cars listings.

But, why are we still doing this? M5Power, you're lucky I was nice and let the cars move on to the next round. I could have ended it after the first one, given the fact the DS had double the votes of the Veyron. But fair is fair, and as of now your car is ahead by a point.

Do I care? Not really. Sure, I'd rather see the DS win by day's end, but the Veyron still gets it's fair share of credit (as noted before in the previous thread...).

---

BTW: Thanks kids for not turning this into a crazy Japanese car fest. I was worried about this one for a while, and thats part of the reason why I waited for it.

Keep nominating, and feel free to debate a few of the Japanese models, along with the DS and Veyron (if you still think that is necessary)...

 

[Time_Attack]

Less petrol to fester away in the tank, obviously

Actually this is true. An interesting fact about the veyron is that if you were to drive it at its top speed you would run out of fuel in about 12 minutes.

 

[1X83Z]

You mean I've "failed to provide no evidence to the contrary"...

Oh, did the human make a mistake? How sad. I was on the phone when I wrote that and another post in this thread so forgive me if they're not up to your standards. Or perhaps you're just running out of things to pick apart.

Incidentally, neither of the quotes you attribute to me ever appeared. Neither of the quotes in their original format are "personal insults". If you think they are you should use the "Report to Moderator" button.

That's the lamest thing I've heard in my entire life. I quoted you exactly in one phrase, substituting my correct spelling for yours, and in the other, I paraphrased, exactly getting the proper meaning.

This is a direct quote from you:

he's malodourously wrong

As is this:

I hear the "clue" shop is having a sale. I'd nip down there if I were you.

You're telling me to get a clue, then you're going after my exact word usage and a minor grammatical error.

I know them to be false

Which is interesting, because I posted a source, and you not surprisingly posted none. Again. And of course as soon as I posted my source you told me my source was wrong and then posted your baseless claims. I don't even want you to cite them, because I'll just pull a Famine and tell you they're wrong like you did with mine. Sound good?

No-one else has posted in this thread to agree with your assertion that the Veyron is the quickest, fastest and most powerful production road car ever. So I'm not sure why you think that it was "accepted as fact by everyone else in this thread".[/color][/b]

Perhaps because I've said it time and time again without ever hearing a dispute? In debate we call that "flowing through" i.e. being reasonably accepted. Which I think everyone in this thread would agree it was, save for you, though you're too busy going after my grammar to care.

Presume whatever you like. I have no intention of telling you, as I previously said.

Go on Famine - ask me if I care. Truly - ask me. The "I know something you don't know" attitude of some of the more childish moderators here is quite a bit more comical than any pattern emerging in any poll in any thread on this forum. Especially because those moderators think we care to know what it is they possess so secretly.

I didn't say it wasn't a production vehicle. I said that by YOUR criterion alone of 65 road going cars, it wasn't a production car - until that 65th chassis rolls off the production line. YOU laid down no other criteria. If you meant something else, you should probably have said something else.

So we're skipping "intent of the poster" and just heading for "vague language"? Is this the only way you can prove me wrong? And remember Famine - check this post for spelling and grammar before coming up with a rebuttal! It might just be the only thing you have to argue about!

 

[1X83Z]

Actually this is true. An interesting fact about the veyron is that if you were to drive it at its top speed you would run out of fuel in about 12 minutes.

I've heard this over and over again. Here's the problem with this fact: yeah, if you were going top speed, you'd be out of gas in 12 minutes. The problem is, you'd also go 51 miles. Do you know anywhere where you can go 51 miles at 253mph?

 

[MistaX]

Do you know anywhere where you can go 51 miles at 253mph?

Antarctica. But look out for flying Penguins.

Anyway I need a point to this post, so my nomination for best Japanese car is: [drumroll]
Skyline GT-R KPGC10
[/drumroll]

Without it, we wouldn't have the Japanese sports cars like we do today. Atleast they wouldn't be the same.

 

[Time_Attack]

I've heard this over and over again. Here's the problem with this fact: yeah, if you were going top speed, you'd be out of gas in 12 minutes. The problem is, you'd also go 51 miles. Do you know anywhere where you can go 51 miles at 253mph?

I'm sure you could find a place... The question is could the tires handle it...

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

My vote went to the Clio 👍

Surely the best piece of machinery Japan's ever known 👍

 

[Casio]

Everybody is wrong. Again.

Swift GTi

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

No, you're wrong. Again.

 

[Flame-returns]

Citroen DS, a revolutionary car.

My Best Japanese car nomination goes to the Mazda RX8, the RX7 isn't bad either.

 

[Danny]

I nominate the Rover 25.

 

[Casio]

For Japanese car!

 

[Danny]

If the Veyron is French, the Rover is Japanese, since it's a Civic underneath.

 

[Jay]

According to Wiki the Rover 25 you posted isn't a Civic underneath.

EDIT but then again on the wiki Civic page it says they are related.

 

[Eric.]

Antarctica. But look out for flying Penguins.

Anyway I need a point to this post, so my nomination for best Japanese car is: [drumroll]
Skyline GT-R KPGC10
[/drumroll]

Without it, we wouldn't have the Japanese sports cars like we do today. Atleast they wouldn't be the same.

Japan is definitely one of the hardest markets to choose the best car from. There are so many economy cars like the Civic that have not only been a means of cheap transportation with excellent gas mileage, but has also spawned the sport compact scene.

Then there are the sports cars which we all are probably way too damn familiar with thanks to PD. The NSX shook up Ferrari and sent their engineers back to the drawing board 16 years ago when it was new, and the latest NSX-R can run around Motegi (east?) as fast as a Gallardo, Murcielago, F360, 911, and CSL. I personally don't think the Supra deserves the award. The car didn't quite change anything besides help to make Nissan improve on their GT-R. I'm not meaning that I don't like it, it just isn't something that was anything special, either when it was released or late in its life. The Skyline deserves the award as well. Out of all of the "276BHP" Japanese cars, the GT-R was the king. It had the most power (Supra had more torque with the larger engine) and amazing handling due to its phenominal AWD system, which is now in use in AWD Infiniti's, probably some North American market Nissans, and surely many JDM Nissans.

Finally, the RX-7 and Miata are excellent handlers with the Miata creating many racing leagues and has been without competition until just recently with the Solstice and Sky. The Evo and Impreza variants are rally cars for the road. Both are good track cars with good day to day practicality for a pretty average price.

Which is the winner? Don't ask me!


To clear up the Veyron's handling/speed modes, you have to come to a complete stop and (iirc) turn the car off prior to inserting the second key to change the aerodynamics and suspension. It will stay in speed mode until you hit the brakes or turn the wheel 90 degrees or more above 30mph.

 

[MistaX]

If the Veyron is French, the Rover is Japanese, since it's a Civic underneath.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up, so I wouldn't be alone in the argument.


Bugatti is by no means French. The company was established on GERMAN OCCUPIED TERRITORY. As in, it was German when it was established, by an Italian. 15 or so years later, Germany gave the land back to France.

Now, nearly 80 some odd years later it's owned by Volkswagen, which is German. Bugatti virtually didn't EXIST previous to VW buying it. They went under, and had NO assets. They sold the unfinished EB110's to Dauer. VW basicly bought the name Bugatti in 1998. It came with nothing. Just a name.

Then they bought the factory, which is indeed in France, but obviously we can't label a car from one country just because it is built there, otherwise General Motors is Canadian for the most part and Certain Toyota's would be American, and so on and so forth.

The Veyron is about as French as BMW.

It isn't.

It's German.

 

[Danny]

According to Wiki the Rover 25 you posted isn't a Civic underneath.

EDIT but then again on the wiki Civic page it says they are related.

As far as I know, the Rover 200 was first based on the Civic, and from thereon each "evolution" (then on to the Rover 25 and MG ZR) was just facelifted, with no major changes underneath, henceforth it still being a Civic.

 

[Jay]

I was waiting for someone to bring that up, so I wouldn't be alone in the argument.


Bugatti is by no means French. The company was established on GERMAN OCCUPIED TERRITORY. As in, it was German when it was established, by an Italian. 15 or so years later, Germany gave the land back to France.

Now, nearly 80 some odd years later it's owned by Volkswagen, which is German. Bugatti virtually didn't EXIST previous to VW buying it. They went under, and had NO assets. They sold the unfinished EB110's to Dauer. VW basicly bought the name Bugatti in 1998. It came with nothing. Just a name.

Then they bought the factory, which is indeed in France, but obviously we can't label a car from one country just because it is built there, otherwise General Motors is Canadian for the most part and Certain Toyota's would be American, and so on and so forth.

The Veyron is about as French as BMW.

It isn't.

It's German.

Although its really confusing what country of origin many car manufacturer's are now (especially as many are have shares in each other) and Bugatti is one of the most debatable, but I have to agree, I don't think of them being French, they are owned by Germans but I still like to think of them as originally Italian as the founder was Italian.

Otherwise I would see them more as German as like you said they were originally built on German soil, even if it was French.

 

[Famine]

I quoted you exactly in one phrase, substituting my correct spelling for yours, and in the other, I paraphrased, exactly getting the proper meaning.

If you substituted anything, you didn't quote exactly. When you paraphased you inserted your own, interpreted meaning.

And still neither is a personal insult.

Which is interesting, because I posted a source, and you not surprisingly posted none. Again. And of course as soon as I posted my source you told me my source was wrong and then posted your baseless claims. I don't even want you to cite them, because I'll just pull a Famine and tell you they're wrong like you did with mine. Sound good?

You posted, as concrete data to back your claim up, an ESTIMATE. Seriously, that's just clutching at straws and you know it.

Have you ever seen any attempt by any Bugatti Veyron to match this estimate? Do you have ANY data at all to back the estimate up? No - because none exists, because it has never, ever happened. The fastest any Veyron has ever done 0-60mph (not even 0-62mph), to my knowledge, is 2.8s in a 0-100-0mph group test - which it won, with a total time of 9.9s. - in AutoCar's annual 0-100-0mph challenge.

Perhaps because I've said it time and time again without ever hearing a dispute?

Or reading it - because there was one, other than mine.

Go on Famine - ask me if I care. Truly - ask me. The "I know something you don't know" attitude of some of the more childish moderators here is quite a bit more comical than any pattern emerging in any poll in any thread on this forum. Especially because those moderators think we care to know what it is they possess so secretly.

Given that two people have asked after details, you being one of them, I don't have to ask if you care or not. Someone who doesn't care wouldn't post their guesses.

So we're skipping "intent of the poster" and just heading for "vague language"? Is this the only way you can prove me wrong?

"Vague language"? I repeated your "exact words". If the "intent of the poster" was something else, perhaps the poster ought to have posted their intent rather than what they actually posted.

When asked to "define production car" YOU defined a production car as "Sixty-five road units or more. ". Count the Bugattis... oh, they've only made 20.. By YOUR definition alone, they do not reach the level defined as production car status.


But still - you know that your "facts" are wrong now, and yet you stick with them stubbornly. This probably explains your current demeanour - we all know you don't like being questioned on your car facts. The Veyron is not the fastest, quickest nor most powerful production car ever made and, even if you exclude the Weineck Cobra as not a production car, it still wasn't even one of these at the car's launch - being beaten by a ROVER!

This is why the Veyron will not be remembered as well as the McLaren F1 - it was beaten almost as soon as it was announced, and well before the first customer even got their hands on it.


Toronado - I missed that the first time round, sorry. The air resistance alone on the Veyron at 253mph will decelerate it at 0.3g, so as soon as you lift off, you're under the normal configuration's peak of 230mph anyway.