Best Japanese Car (Final Voting for French Car)

[Luca]

I don't know what I'll do if a German car wins the "best French car" competition. I already put my vote in for the DS... I guess that's the best I can do.

As for my nomination for best Japanese car? Hmm... I think I'll have to say the Toyota Sprinter Trueno. It's the epitome of what Japanese cars have always done best - they're not the most powerful cars around, but they're fun to drive and economical. Bonus points for the AE86 being the impetus for the drift revolution we're seeing today.

 

[Pink_the_Floyd]

Bugatti is by no means French. The company was established on GERMAN OCCUPIED TERRITORY.

It's German.

And only VW is so stupid to own Bugatti, I heard somewere, building just 1 model costs incedibly much, 5 million pounds or something.

 

[Dave A]

That's the cost per car at 300 cars including the money they spent i R&D, however everything you see on the Veyron, all the things they researched for it and didn't put on it and so on doesn't need to be researched again, the Veyron was a car simply to re-launch Bugatti as the best in the world. Again.

 

[rollazn]

Skyline GT-R (R34) or the Honda NSX (or NSX-R). My vote is for the GTR.

 

[neanderthal]

my vote for most significant japanese car will be three votes.

all of them are a huge part of why the japanese now dominate the market in car sales. they are the cars that took JDM cars from laughable to "damn, this is a good car." at least they did here in the states.

the datsun 510
the toyota pickup (how come no-one has mentioned these two?)
and the datsun 240Z
---------------

as for the DS vs buggatti thing, the veyron is nothing more than an exercise in excess, like a circus sideshow freak. like the guy who had the biggest biceps. not really anything spectacular aside from the freakish nature, which cant be explored fully without coming to a stop, inserting the magic key, and using special "high speed" tires.

technological oneupmanship is not a reason for a car being the best from a country. as far as i am concerened they have achieved exactly nothing by building that car, except that they will keepthier word to make a 1000hp car. at the cost of what? millions and millions if not billions.

cutting off your nose to spite your face is stupid, even if you do make "the worlds fastest car."

and ps, mercedes had a car which automatically lowered its hydraulic suspension at higher speeds back in the sixties. the W108 300SELs, the 4.5s, and the 6.3s. the W116s from the seventies also had that feature if they had the hydraulic suspension. and so did the "big body" W140s from the 90s

hell, the gelandewagen had it in the early nineties too,and its a truck.

 

[Famine]

as for the DS vs buggatti thing, the veyron is nothing more than an exercise in excess, like a circus sideshow freak. like the guy who had the biggest biceps. not really anything spectacular aside from the freakish nature, which cant be explored fully without coming to a stop, inserting the magic key, and using special "high speed" tires.

technological oneupmanship is not a reason for a car being the best from a country. as far as i am concerened they have achieved exactly nothing by building that car, except that they will keepthier word to make a 1000hp car. at the cost of what? millions and millions if not billions.

cutting off your nose to spite your face is stupid, even if you do make "the worlds fastest car."

and ps, mercedes had a car which automatically lowered its hydraulic suspension at higher speeds back in the sixties. the W108 300SELs, the 4.5s, and the 6.3s. the W116s from the seventies also had that feature if they had the hydraulic suspension. and so did the "big body" W140s from the 90s

hell, the gelandewagen had it in the early nineties too,and its a truck.

Thing is, I like the Veyron, and have posted about its virtues many times here. Some of the numbers are appalling in their excellence... I mean, it'll brake from full speed in 10 seconds. If a McLaren F1 had a race to 200mph with the Veyron, the Veyron could wait until the F1 reached 120mph before it even set off and would still win. And, despite all of this, it still has a full, standard VAG warranty - unlike pretty much every other supercar ever.

But I also know what it isn't - and it isn't the fastest, quickest, most powerful or most expensive car ever made. Until Barabus actually deliver a TKR to a customer though, it is the only one which combines being almost the fastest, almost the quickest and almost the most powerful into one car - and is still a car you can live with every day (which the Barabus almost certainly won't be).


Oh, and it uses the same key as the Skoda Fabia.

 

[JCE]

Good god can we get off the Veyron vs DS conversation now. Close this thread and start the Japanese one already!

 

[1X83Z]

This is why the Veyron will not be remembered as well as the McLaren F1

Dead wrong - and that's the difference between the people who voted for the Veyron, and the people who voted for the DS. The former group realizes that the Veyron will have a huge legacy. The latter group probably realizes it, but doesn't want to admit it. In ten years' time I think you'll find you were dead wrong.

So much for the infallibility of Famine - I don't believe you told me I hadn't directly quoted you because I changed a British spelling to an American one. Spectacularly bush league.

And look - unlike you, I've gotten through the discussion without one personal insult!

 

[YSSMAN]

Dead wrong - and that's the difference between the people who voted for the Veyron, and the people who voted for the DS. The former group realizes that the Veyron will have a huge legacy. The latter group probably realizes it, but doesn't want to admit it. In ten years' time I think you'll find you were dead wrong.

Whoa whoa whoa there... You can stop the gross generalization there. I'm sure that every single one of us who voted for the DS can completely appreciate a car like the Veyron, and I'm certain all of us can see how this car will be remembered in the near future.

I nominated the DS and voted for it because of what did in 1955, some things that have only been attempted to be copied recently. The car was way ahead of it's time, and thus pushed the boundaries forward for the way people could look at a car or truck in the near future.

Insulting those of us who voted for the DS isn't worth it, as we are not lesser people. We appreciate cars that aren't the fastest or best looking, we look at the overall impact of the car or truck on history as we know it, and thus we voted for a car like the DS.

Ten years down the road, I'm positive we will all be looking back on the Veyron in a positive light... But whos to say the same won't still be happening for the DS? There are people who aren't going to like cars like the Veryon, much like how there were people who didn't like the 959 or F40. Its the way things work, get used to it.

Either way, keep voting. I don't really care who wins, but if the Veyron does, I'm sure all of us won't hear the end of it from M5Power...

 

[Famine]

Dead wrong - and that's the difference between the people who voted for the Veyron, and the people who voted for the DS. The former group realizes that the Veyron will have a huge legacy. The latter group probably realizes it, but doesn't want to admit it. In ten years' time I think you'll find you were dead wrong.

Ah yes - you predict that in the future "x" happens, so therefore anyone who disagrees with you IS wrong.

What you don't seem to understand is that the DS has that legacy NOW. The Veyron doesn't.

So much for the infallibility of Famine

What infallibility is this? Is it like the one you claim with your car facts?

I don't believe you told me I hadn't directly quoted you because I changed a British spelling to an American one. Spectacularly bush league.

What you mean to say there is "You're right - because I changed a British spelling to an American one, I hadn't directly quoted you.".

And look - unlike you, I've gotten through the discussion without one personal insult!

Though you did, when you described the people who voted for the DS as "incompetent".

And you got through the discussion without acknowledging that your car facts, with regards to the Veyron, are at best estimates and closed doors tests and at worst just plain wrong.

Go on, you know you want to... It goes like this:

"I'm sorry, Famine, but I used an estimated time for the Veyron's acceleration to 62mph, when no real world tests have matched it, but the same tests have placed it behind two other production cars to 60mph, so in fact it isn't the quickest production car ever made as I boldly claimed earlier - and then made a big fuss about."

(though you'll probably point out that one of them doesn't count, because it's not sold in the US and so isn't a car)

The scientific man takes on data and modifies his position. The religious man stands by the original data and defends it to the hilt, no matter how wrong other data shows it to be.


Amusingly, my debut in this thread was to defend your quickest/fastest distinction.

 

[1X83Z]

Okay Famine. 👍

 

[neanderthal]

Dead wrong - and that's the difference between the people who voted for the Veyron, and the people who voted for the DS. The former group realizes that the Veyron will have a huge legacy. The latter group probably realizes it, but doesn't want to admit it. In ten years' time I think you'll find you were dead wrong.

in ten years time so few people who arent enthusiasts will still not know that the veyron exists. its legacy will be short as it will be out everything'd by different cars in the near future. if, as indeed seems to be the argument, it already hasnt.

whereas the DS already has a legacy, and more importantly, impacted a lot of people. whether or not they had one or thier neighbour had one, or they knew someone who had one. it introduced several different technologies. it looked ahead of its time, hell it still looks futuristic even now. its more significant in many more ways than that hideous monstrosity that the veyron is.

 

[1X83Z]

whereas the DS already has a legacy, and more importantly, impacted a lot of people. whether or not they had one or thier neighbour had one, or they knew someone who had one.

I can't figure out why this is a reason people think it should be considered for "best car." It was popular - so what? Bush was popular enough to get elected twice and he's not best at anything.

 

[Poverty]

People say that the vetron has just impoved on technology that we have today, but hasnt brought anything new to the table as such, however I disagree, as one could argue the same cause for the DS. However without getting into detail, I think that VAG is keep theyre cards close to their chests with the veyron and its technology, and I believe we will see the benefits of it 10-15 years down the line from now in Lambo's Audi's etc.

Overall I belive the DS engineers would have had a hell of a lot easier time desgining the DS than VAG had with the veyron, as I belive we will soon reach the limit of what we can do with cars, and the improvements each time will be smaller. Bugatti arguably couldnt be all that innovative, because most things have already been done, thanks to the likes of the DS and MB, so they just decided to make whats on paper near impossible, and they deserve their kudos for that.

Its like in 100m sprinting, the record gets beaten on average every 10 years or so, but each time it does the improvement of the record is tiny, instead of what could be consider big chunks 30 years ago.

 

[niky]

The thing is, where we're at a loggerhead is what constitutes best. Is it the uber-car that the very few will buy, loaded with all the latest technologies? Or is it the one that brought these technologies to the masses (however relative masses may be in this case?).

The main argument against the Veyron, really, is that it doesn't bring anything fundamentally new to the table. It just happens to be one of the best current supercars, or should I say, super-GTs. As Famine has pointed out, others have done more with less, with more boastful numbers... the Veyron's calling card is putting all of those big numbers together into one package. And that's all. Any car relying on big numbers to be its claim to fame will only be top of the pops until those numbers are eclipsed.

Thus, Ferrari didn't chase the big numbers with the Enzo, Porsche didn't chase the big numbers with the Carrera GT, and the Pagani Zonda has never been about numbers. That's basically the supercar thing... more passion than numbers. Although the numbers don't hurt either.

It was surprising to see in the previous poll that Famine had voted for the Venturi Atlantique... but thinking about it, it kinda makes sense, as the Atlantique was one of the last truly French supercars... at least until Peugeot gets off its ass and actually puts one of its amazing concepts into production.

 

[Jim Prower]

Japanese Nominations:

AE86 (All)
R32 GT-R
R34 GT-R

 

[GM]

I voted for Renault Clio again (because of the Sport V6), the other day in Bristol, I saw the new version of the Sport Clio, it looks crap compared to the old one.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

DS. It was a technological marvel for its time, and has become a classic, legendary car.

I was tempted to vote for the Veyron, as I do think it is an amazing car, but it's simply too new. It's not a car that everyone can instantly recognize right now. At the moment it's just another replaceable supercar, its claim to fame being top speed, which will broken eventually. Sure, it may be known for being the fastest of its time, like the Diablo or the McLaren, both of which are iconic and synonimous with supercars. They can be recognized by even the most unsavvy auto fans, or even by people who can't indentify most of the other daily drivers on the freeway. But, the Bughatti may not become iconic. After all, speed record doesn't gaurantee fame. Take the Koenigsegg CCX for example. For a while, it held the production car max speed record at 245mph. But show its picture to most people on the street, and they don't even know what it is. Most of the people I know have never even heard of Koenigsegg.

Will the Veyron become iconic, or simply fade away? It's hard to tell. I hope it isn't forgotton like so many other supercars. Only time will tell. It's only unargualbe claim to fame is it's speed, which will eventually be overshadowed by another car. Nothing else about it is truly radical, revolutionary, or different enough to set itself away from everyone else and assure it becomes an icon like the Countach or F40. It's just too soon to call it the best French car ever, so I just cannot give it my vote.

 

[Time_Attack]

I didnt want to vote fot he DS because its one of the ugliest cars I have ever seen in my life. I didnt vote for the veyron for the same reason.

I voted for the clio because I like the cup car.

 

[1X83Z]

Poll closes, Veyron wins. Thanks to all who made the proper vote. 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

The gloating is completely unnecessary, and quite frankly, you are quite lucky I even exteneded it into this round. If it wasen't for your complaints (among other things), I would have ended it right there with the DS recieveing double the votes of the Veyron in the origional thread.

There isn't any need to be an ass about it... The Veyron won fair and square, the DS barely behind. There really isn't any more to it than that...

[/thread]

 

[1X83Z]

The gloating is completely unnecessary, and quite frankly, you are quite lucky I even exteneded it into this round.

Actually the gloating is just a bit necessary as I decided rather than rebut to Famine I'd just wait for the poll results to bring the Veyron in and alas, they've done just that. I don't know why I'm lucky that you extended it considering not extending it would've been like picking the president from the primary voting (and I had no personal stake in the vehicles being voted upon as despite my campaigning for the Veyron I'm really against it on principle).

 

[Tornado]

M5Power, I'm just going to say this. The Bugatti Veyron is a great car. I did vote for it. But I voted for it for a different reason. I voted for it because it was a true masterpiece of the ability to produce things when cost is no object, and a company throws all of it's resources at a project. The Veyron represents everything the Auto industry currently has to offer.
As much as I hate to say it, however it does nothing new. 4 turbos? EB110. 4WD? EB110. 16 cylinder engine? Cizeta. 1000 BHP? Vector WX3, various idiots with Skylines and Supras. 250+ MPH? Dauer 962 LM and Vector WX3.
Yes, the Bugatti will still be remembered in 10 years as a car that a company went out of it's way to prove it could build. 51 years? Nah.