Car Damage

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Since that many people wanted to actually see damage in this game, I've thought up an idea. What if there were to be an option that you can toggle on and off for car damage effects? If you think that you're a good enough driver to not make any mistakes, you can toggle it on, and every car you race with and bump or crash into something would cause car effect damage, even the cpu cars! If you don't want that or if you're just a beginner, just set it to off and you'd race normally with no car effect damage like the rest of the GT series. Not sure if this idea has been made into a thread before, but I'm new here and thought of this up.

Also, hello to all the members here at GTP! :)
 
I think the ability to toggle damage on and off is inevetible in the next GT.....if PD doesn't have this option like any other racing game to turn damage off, they'll face a lot of criticism, especially from beginner racers.
 
RacingFreak2k3
I think the ability to toggle damage on and off is inevetible in the next GT.....if PD doesn't have this option like any other racing game to turn damage off, they'll face a lot of criticism, especially from beginner racers.
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Well yeah that's true.
 
I dunno, they did try the whole damage thing in GT2, and it was pretty BSy to me since it was pretty much just feeling the effects of the supposed damage (like the car pulling to one side thanks to damage to one of the wheels) rather than feeling AND seeing the effects of the damage. And I figure at this point PD has to have made enough money and be considered to have enough clout in the world of car racing sim games to be able to get permission to total a few hundred cars a few different ways.

One thing that's always bugged me about damage is that there's usually only one damage model for the car in the game. It would be awesome if you could crunch in your spotless fender on two different occassions and get two different crunched-up appearances. That would just add to the realism instead of me knowing what paint scrapes and other deformiities there will be on my car as I damage it (like in Midnight Club 3).

Oh, and hopefully they'll finally allow the cars to roll over when they're pushed to that point.
 
Paly TOCa 3, that game uses poly deformation cleverly, each part has set properties and upon impact deforms accordingly. That way plastic parts like bumpers will crack and break in different places, and panels will dent and crease in different ways after each impact. If PD were to implement a damage model I'd expect it to use a deformation technique alone the lines of Codemasters more recent racers.
 
If GT5 does have damage, then they should at least make it Driv3r quality. The damage in Driv3r is the most realistic I've ever seen.
 
IMO damage isn't that important. I mean, GT has always been about being a realistic as possible. The type of damage we have seen in every racing/car game so far, is very far from being realistic. If you're a fan of motorsports you know what I'm talking about. There is no way any company can reproduce the type of things that happen in a real race. Anything short of that is unrealistic.

If the damage in GT5 is just superficial then there's nothing that will stop people from bumping their way through the game. Damage no matter how small, damage always has some effect on a car. Sometimes you can still keep going, and sometimes it will end your race. Things also just break down, how is PD gonna reproduce that? If anything I hope the type of damage in GT5 has the possibly of ending your race. Unlike other games would have you believe, crashing into a wall at 200 MPH should completely destroy your car and the wall. I hope that happens in GT5.

At the very least the damage GT5 should have should accomplish two things. One it should force to drive like real race car drivers. So no bumper cars, no riding the rail, and no backing into a car under braking. And two it has to put the fear in people that their race could end at any moment.
 
I agree, but in order to make things fair PD must improve the AI, at least concerning "awareness" of the human player's car.

Both in GT3 and GT4 I had, much too often, contact with AI cars just because in some situations they just act like if you weren't there.
 
Threshold
IMO damage isn't that important. I mean, GT has always been about being a realistic as possible. The type of damage we have seen in every racing/car game so far, is very far from being realistic. If you're a fan of motorsports you know what I'm talking about. There is no way any company can reproduce the type of things that happen in a real race. Anything short of that is unrealistic.
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Give Race Driver 3 (for the PS2) or F1:CE (for the PS3) a go and you may well re-evaluate that. In both the damage is far from cosmetic and has a very, very real impact on your race.

Just because no one has got damage 100% accurate does not mean that attempting to implement it is pointless, after all no driving sim (and this most certainly includes GT4 and GT:HD) is truly realistic in how it depicts the physics of driving. By the same logic if damage should not be implemented unless its 100% realistic then neither should handling. An extreme analogy I know but I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at.

The PS3 is more than capable of both excellent visuals (which has to be a given in the GT series) and realistic enough damage as F1:CE quite clearly shows....



..so I say its about time PD brought it on. I picked up F1:CE following recommendation of other members here and have to say I'm glad I did. Full damage totally changes how you approach the race, at Bahrain last night I put the MF1 11th on the grid in qualifying and got up to around 6th before I braked to late and took the nose cone off on the back of a Renault. The resulting loss of downforce from the front removed all grip and I had to struggle to the pits to replace it (dropping positions all the way). The end result was that I struggled to get back up to 10th place b y the finish. For me that kind of thing is exactly what I want from the next GT.

Regards

Scaff
 
Wow, I need to buy a PS3 and that game. Anyways, that's what I would like to see. Most people simply think of damage as a superfical thing, but it should have a purpose. It shouldn't just be eye candy. If it prevents people from driving like idiots, I'm all for it. If it's just for show, no thanks.

P.S. Does the logitech wheel, the 900 degree one, work with this game?
 
Threshold
Wow, I need to buy a PS3 and that game. Anyways, that's what I would like to see. Most people simply think of damage as a superfical thing, but it should have a purpose. It shouldn't just be eye candy. If it prevents people from driving like idiots, I'm all for it. If it's just for show, no thanks.

P.S. Does the logitech wheel, the 900 degree one, work with this game?
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Quite agree, cosmetic damage is totally pointless. F1:CE with the damage switched on certainly stops you driving like an idiot, its more than possible to be out of a race in the first corner if your not paying attention (as happened to me at Monaco - lost a wheel). For the PS2 getting a copy of Race Driver 3 is worth a look as the damage model is impressive in that as well.

Regards

Scaff


BTW - yes the DFP is supported by F1:CE, check out he full thread on the game here - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=77827
 
Scaff
...Full damage totally changes how you approach the race...f
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I couldn't agree more 👍

When playing the Grand Prix series on PC, I'd always restart a race if I slammed into someone else early on, and put them into the gravel. I just felt like I was cheating myself out of the enjoyment of the game. I want to beat the game on the track so to speak. And not by punting them off.

GT is screaming out for a decent damage model in the game, and I think it will serously change the way to game is played both on and offline.

My biggest fear is that when online, you'll get idiots who want to punt other racers off, for a laugh. Lets hope PD find a way to prevent people doing that kind of thing, without taking away normal racing contacts.
 
As long as I can turn it off, I'm fine with it.

You see, I don't want my race to end when I hit the wall. and I dont' like "Eye candy" damage. I Don't want to spend $300 on a wheel because I can't play with the controller well enough, either.
 
since the thread got some attention and some people might not look at the other, here´s an interesting take on damage:

it´s an exchange of posts between myself and che chou, forza´s communitty leader.


Originally Posted by seattle6418:
what? first manufactors didn´t want to allow damage, now they will put limits to the damage?
"you can wreck our car, but be kind"

WTF?

what´s the truth on this Che? hardware/difficulty/lack of time limitations or licensing limitations?

Licensing of course.

No flipping, burning, crushing the A/B pillars, drivers through windows, dismemberment, losing tires, blah blah, the list goes on.

Manufacturers run a business selling cars. Why would they want to give you permission to destroy their IP and make their products look bad?

Seriously, it was a lot of work getting damage across the board for all cars. The amount of effort and content coordination was mind boggling for 300+ cars. Think about it -- for every car in the game, we had to send back to the manufacturer detailed screenshots showing all possible damage effects to every car, and then had to then look at all these shots and then give us approvals on whether it's good enough to go into the game. Often times, they wanted things changed.

I read somewhere today that GT5 may not have damage in the game at all. I don't blame Polyphony for that decision at all. It's really really tough -- both from a content production point of view (having to create tons of different models for every car due to ways it can get damaged) and a content licensing point of view.

I had taken all this for granted before I joined Turn 10, of course.
 
fasj6418
I read somewhere today that GT5 may not have damage in the game at all. I don't blame Polyphony for that decision at all.
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False, the quote says it's neither in the game not excluded from the game yet, and seems about GTHD not GT5. Nothing official from Polyphony.

All the rumors come from this:
derrickgott007: People are already exploting the no damage to ruin the leaderboards....There are videos on Youtube on how to get 1.07min lap times by fence riding and going full speed into the turns to riccoceht off the fence....Please put in damage to stop these people.

skebe: Sorry for not being able to respond earlier... didn't know until today that this forum had a PM feature :)

Although we're not ready to implement damage until they can be shown in a truly authentic way (which is extremely hard work if you think about it), we are doing our best to avoid these kind of 'cheating' to take place.

Thanks so much for playing GTHD, and providing precious feedback.

===========================

derrickgott007: I understand what you are saying about the hard work.....But FORZA 2 has damage, and so does the TOCA series...If GT5 had damage it would be UNSTOPPABLE.

skebe: No I mean, really really really hard work... to the extent of creating another game, almost. From our standards, what other racing games are doing is 'simplified damage'. You know how **bleep** we are when making our games... we would want to simulate every single dent differently :)

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=granturismo&thread.id=283150
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If PD releases GT5 with online play, some better special effects (tire marks, particle effects, etc.), and much better sounds, along with some better visual customization options, I will be able to live without damage. Of course, I would love to have it implemented...but i can live without it.
 
Ten bucks says most of the people complaining about lack of damage will be the first ones turning it off when the game comes out.

Since PD is always striving to make the game realistic, chances are the damage will be realistic, too. None of this "smash up your car with nothing to show for it but some dings" crap. Even in TOCA, you could run head-first into a wall at 100mph+ and continue driving. When PD impliments damage, I want to see REAL damage. One mistake and you're out of the race. Swipe a wall at the wrong angle, snap the suspension, the end, you're done, see ya later. Which is not what most people think of when they think of "damage". Most people want something cosmetic only... they don't want to be out of the race after the first turn.

For that reason, I think they'll make it an option that can be turned off. The host of an online game will probably be the one to control it, and everyone in the race will either have damage on or not.
 
in my opinion, theres 2 sides to the whole damage issue. you have the one obvious side that doesn't want to use the damage for a few reasons, namely damaged cars dont look good and it affects your performance. but the downside is the realism is affected as well. the other side of the issue is people who want damage want the realism of damaged goods and the effects that come with damage. if theres the extra issue of having to pay to fix your car when damaged, that will turn mostly everyone away because of the chunk that will come out of your car modding/buying budget. so what i think is there should be the availability of damage, both cosmetically and physically(affecting performance), but the damage is automatically fixed after the race. they should also implement a system where if you choose to have damage off, then hitting walls/barriers should slow you down and not allow you to slide along the corners or bounce off walls, in essence keeping people from cheating.
 
Jedi2016
Ten bucks says most of the people complaining about lack of damage will be the first ones turning it off when the game comes out.

Since PD is always striving to make the game realistic, chances are the damage will be realistic, too. None of this "smash up your car with nothing to show for it but some dings" crap. Even in TOCA, you could run head-first into a wall at 100mph+ and continue driving. When PD impliments damage, I want to see REAL damage. One mistake and you're out of the race. Swipe a wall at the wrong angle, snap the suspension, the end, you're done, see ya later. Which is not what most people think of when they think of "damage". Most people want something cosmetic only... they don't want to be out of the race after the first turn.

For that reason, I think they'll make it an option that can be turned off. The host of an online game will probably be the one to control it, and everyone in the race will either have damage on or not.
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Uh, if your referring to race Driver 3 then it does to a degree depend on exactly which car you are looking at. While some of the closed wheel cars can take a bit to much damage to be called realistic. The open wheel cars are extremely fragile, clip anything even remotely solid or even run the curbs too often and you will almost certainly snap the suspension on the corner in concern.

As I've mentioned before Richard Burns Rally is even more 'realistic', hit a trackside object at much more than around 20moh and its a damaged radiator and almost no chance of a good finish, repeat that or hit something at much more than around 50mph and its a definite DNF. F1:CE is very similar in its 'realistic' take on damage.

While I quite agree that it many not be for everyone (and hence the reason all of the games mentioned offer the option to turn damage off), but certainly some of us asking for it are aware of just how risky it makes things and have/are still playing games/sims that deliver the level of damage we want.

My only concern with regard to GT5 damage is that I still find it very unlikely that manufacturers will allow cars to roll or flip, damage is one thing, loss of control to that degree is quite another. If you think about all the sims/games with licensed cars that do allow this to occur, none (to my knowledge) involve true road cars, all are race models.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
If you think about all the sims/games with licensed cars that do allow this to occur, none (to my knowledge) involve true road cars, all are race models.
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I'm pretty sure Jarrett and Labonte Stock Car Racing did, if I understand what you are saying.
 
Well I just thought that if you can have damage in GT5, drifting in there will be a hard task. Best though would still be a toggle switch, like the F1 race games.
 
Toronado
I'm pretty sure Jarrett and Labonte Stock Car Racing did, if I understand what you are saying.
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Needed to google that one (as we know it as TOCA World Touring Cars in Europe), a great game, but again all the cars in it were 'race' versions rather than true road cars.

Its the issue with taking what is considered a production road car (as found in say the GT series, Forza and Enthusia) and showing that rolling or flipping which is a big issue for manufacturers. Race trim cars are not an issue as manufacturers consider them for track use only, but admittedly the Race Driver series has always pushed the limits of that.

Regards

Scaff
 
I think the best solution would be to include two modes in GT5. One mode for people who aren't very good at the game, and it would pretty much play the same way GT4 does now. Damage could be turned off and on, and you would only be able to end your race if you crashed directly into a wall at 150+ MPH. The other mode would pretty much be for the hardcore people, who demand as much realism as possible. Any sort of ding could end your race right there. Lock up one of your supersoft tires, and you'll have to bare with a bad flatspot.
 
I'm sure I read somewhere (probably just another GT internet rumour) that PD were only going to inlcude their full damage model on race cars, and not on normal road cars. I would be very surprised if all the major manufacturers agreed to have their cars depicked smashed up for the sakes of making a video game more realistic.

Personnally I want the lot. And that does include damaged suspension or a flat tyre with three laps to go. I see it as another part of of the simulator "jigsaw". However, when I've got my mates round it would be nice to turn it off before a jousting session on the 'ring :D
 
j8mie
Personnally I want the lot. And that does include damaged suspension or a flat tyre with three laps to go. I see it as another part of of the simulator "jigsaw". However, when I've got my mates round it would be nice to turn it off before a jousting session on the 'ring :D
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I think its a safe bet that a full damage model would quickly bring down the average Gran Tursimo 'ring lap time.

:)

Scaff
 
Scaff
I think its a safe bet that a full damage model would quickly bring down the average Gran Tursimo 'ring lap time.

:)

Scaff
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For sure. But at least we'd find out who the really good drivers out there are. As was posted eariler in the thread, there are people out there wall running to gain an advantage on the league tables on just the "demo". So imagine what people would do to top the table on the finished game.
 

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