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[M1SS-D3V10US]

1) The points will be listed in the public result Google Doc Spreadsheet, once the results are finalized.

2) They could, but I'm thinking they won't to help keep data entry to a dull roar For access to points, see 1

3) I would have to say no to the DLC track. The only way we could do this is if everyone has the DLC. We'd also have to make DLC a requirement of joining the league. I'm not sure we want to do that as we'd be limiting the number of people we could enlist. I'm open to discussion on this, I love SPA

Thank You kcheeb for the info on the points.

As I recall, Zero was saying that DLC Tracks would be okay but not the DLC cars, as most people would have the tracks. I've been itchin' to run SPA since Zero had mentioned the DLC track comment a few weeks ago. I asked Zero last week about the DLC track and his response was Not this week, because of the prolonged protest issues of last week. There doesn't seem to be that issue this week, so I thought I'd ask Zero again. I REALLY Wanna run SPA!!

 

[Apmaddock]

Not to mention how race-friendly a week of Nürb GT, Suzuka, and Spa would be. None of Côte d'Azur's issues, there.

 

[fzappa]

I agree, soaking in the hot water next my girl, with a drink in hand is Great!

Oh.....you mean the track......I agree too =)

And it looks like Zero's got a few questions to answer when he gets on.

Forget the drink and add other girl!

I would love to race Spa!

 

[fzappa]

Thank You kcheeb for the info on the points.

As I recall, Zero was saying that DLC Tracks would be okay but not the DLC cars, as most people would have the tracks. I've been itchin' to run SPA since Zero had mentioned the DLC track comment a few weeks ago. I asked Zero last week about the DLC track and his response was Not this week, because of the prolonged protest issues of last week. There doesn't seem to be that issue this week, so I thought I'd ask Zero again. I REALLY Wanna run SPA!!

I do remember that conversation.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

I know I said that I should talk about the current point system that we use here in SNAIL with Zero first, but the more I'm thinking about it the more I think it should be in the public eye. So at the risk of upsetting everyone I'm going talk about this here.

In the racing world, a series race has a straight forward point system. Most race series races have hard, "set in stone" point value for all finishing positions and these point values NEVER change from race to race - regardless of the number of entrants (unlike the way it's done here in SNAIL). Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the current system, it's just a little backwards from how it works in the real world. Let's say that you have a point structure like the one listed below for example.

• 1st = 30 pts
• 2nd = 28 pts
• 3rd = 26 pts
• 4th = 24 pts
• 5th = 22 pts
• 6th = 20 pts
• 7th = 18 pts
• 8th = 16 pts
• 9th = 14 pts
• 10th = 12 pts
• 11h = 10 pts
• 12th = 09 pts
• 13th = 08 pts
• 14th = 07 pts
• 15th = 06 pts
• 16th = 05 pts
• 17th = 04 pts
• 18th = 03 pts
• 19th = 02 pts
• 20th = 01 pt

So let's say that there are only 10 drivers that enter the race, then the worst you can earn is the points for 10th place unless you have to deal with a DQ or some other Steward Action (penalty or finish position adjustments). This system allows drivers to know where they stand in a series and allows drivers to who have an ill-fated car to know they only need to finish in 5th place of better for this race to still hold on to the point lead for the series and have to worry about doing something risky that might put the series championship in jeopardy.

The way points are done in this SNAIL series is kinda messed up, in my opinion, from ANY racing league I have ever been had the pleasure to take part in. Drivers are rewarded points based on the number of drivers that finish the race (12) with 12 pts going to the 1st place winner, and 11pts to 2nd and so on & so on. If 4 drivers get dropped from the room, then the total number of points possible is now only 8. This system can prevent drivers from making strategies decision, as you would in any other series except SNAIL, and/or as described in the above paragraph.

Let's say that Tommy has a running tally on the point and is sitting in pretty good in points. He now thinks about the situation and realizes that he only needs to take a 4th place finish (or better) to secure his overall win for the week given the number of drivers in the race. In the race, he's sitting in 4th place, just driving, not trying to compete with trio in from on him, and he let's the trio go - because he only needs to bring the car home in 4th place or better to win overall. Then suddenly, and without warning, 4 drivers get dropped from the race in the last lap. To make matters worse, now it's IMPOSSIBLE for Tommy to catch up and salvage his race series championship. Now all the sudden the current point system has just punished a good driver - through no fault of his own. Not cool.

Personally, I would think that if 12 drivers start the race, then the 12 points should be the top number of points possible, period. Regardless if 4 drivers get disconnected from the race while the race is happening. This would still allow for the conventional series point strategy by race drivers to happen and allow others a chance to end up on the podium (as it were) at the end of the race.

I'm curious to know how everyone will reply to this idea, so please feel free to comment.

 

[Hogster-iR]

I understand the points per entry schedule that we're currently running, even though it seems a little complicated to score. But I too dislike the scoring only applying to finishing drivers. If a driver wins a race after the slowest two quit, he's not awarded the same amount of points as the winner of the previous race where all drivers stayed in. (and having the rear of the field drop out should in no way penalize the leader)

I feel like any driver starting should be awarded points. It's not like they planned on being kicked out (or blowing an engine in real life). Even if they're only awarded partial points.

 

[fzappa]

I know I said that I should talk about the current point system that we use here in SNAIL with Zero first, but the more I'm thinking about it the more I think it should be in the public eye. So at the risk of upsetting everyone I'm going talk about this here.

In the racing world, a series race has a straight forward point system. Most race series races have hard, "set in stone" point value for all finishing positions and these point values NEVER change from race to race - regardless of the number of entrants (unlike the way it's done here in SNAIL). Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on the current system, it's just a little backwards from how it works in the real world. Let's say that you have a point structure like the one listed below for example.


[*]1st = 30 pts
[*]2nd = 28 pts
[*]3rd = 26 pts
[*]4th = 24 pts
[*]5th = 22 pts
[*]6th = 20 pts
[*]7th = 18 pts
[*]8th = 16 pts
[*]9th = 14 pts
[*]10th = 12 pts
[*]11h = 10 pts
[*]12th = 09 pts
[*]13th = 08 pts
[*]14th = 07 pts
[*]15th = 06 pts
[*]16th = 05 pts
[*]17th = 04 pts
[*]18th = 03 pts
[*]19th = 02 pts
[*]20th = 01 pt


So let's say that there are only 10 drivers that enter the race, then the worst you can earn is the points for 10th place unless you have to deal with a DQ or some other Steward Action (penalty or finish position adjustments). This system allows drivers to know where they stand in a series and allows drivers to who have an ill-fated car to know they only need to finish in 5th place of better for this race to still hold on to the point lead for the series and have to worry about doing something risky that might put the series championship in jeopardy.

The way points are done in this SNAIL series is kinda messed up, in my opinion, from ANY racing league I have ever been had the pleasure to take part in. Drivers are rewarded points based on the number of drivers that finish the race (12) with 12 pts going to the 1st place winner, and 11pts to 2nd and so on & so on. If 4 drivers get dropped from the room, then the total number of points possible is now only 8. This system can prevent drivers from making strategies decision, as you would in any other series except SNAIL, and/or as described in the above paragraph.

Let's say that Tommy has a running tally on the point and is sitting in pretty good in points. He now thinks about the situation and realizes that he only needs to take a 4th place finish (or better) to secure his overall win for the week given the number of drivers in the race. In the race, he's sitting in 4th place, just driving, not trying to compete with trio in from on him, and he let's the trio go - because he only needs to bring the car home in 4th place or better to win overall. Then suddenly, and without warning, 4 drivers get dropped from the race in the last lap. To make matters worse, now it's IMPOSSIBLE for Tommy to catch up and salvage his race series championship. Now all the sudden the current point system has just punished a good driver - through no fault of his own. Not cool.

Personally, I would think that if 12 drivers start the race, then the 12 points should be the top number of points possible, period. Regardless if 4 drivers get disconnected from the race while the race is happening. This would still allow for the conventional series point strategy by race drivers to happen and allow others a chance to end up on the podium (as it were) at the end of the race.

I'm curious to know how everyone will reply to this idea, so please feel free to comment.

I think this should be looked at. This great league is growing everyday and using this system would be easy for everyone to know where they stand.

 

[zer05ive]

To expand a tad further on this, the penalty is a DQ, so you will get 0 points for that race in question. There is no swapping spots (finishing order for that race) with the other driver. DQ or Nothing (found not guilty/drop charges).

Correct, that's the system we have in place right now. If we find that having this "all or nothing" penalty system is not working out, then we can reassess the situation and make changes as needed. The main thing I like about "all or nothing" is that it is more likely to be a deterrent to breaking the GTP OLR rules.

For example, if a driver unintentionally makes a contact as he makes a pass, I'd rather him be thinking, "Hmm, that might be considered a dirty pass - I should give back the position or else I might lose all of the points from this race!".

If the penalty is something weak like swapping points, a driver might make that same exact pass and think to himself, "Hmm, that might be considered a dirty pass - oh well, I'll just keep driving because if I get caught I'll probably only lose a few points."

See the difference? I'd rather our drivers error on the side of being overly clean than marginally dirty. That's why all this effort was put into creating the S.N.A.I.L. Steward Network. I want our league to be the cleanest league in the entire world of online racing!

Zero: Is there any type of "penalty" for repeated abuse of the protest system? Meaning if you continuously file a protest and the other driver(s) are found not at fault, thus taking up more time of the Stewards that is not needed.

Nope, there will be no penalty for this. I want to encourage drivers to file protests, not discourage it. The moment any driver feels discouraged from filing a protest is the moment our steward system has become a failure.

 

[dabneyd]

So, with all the laggy-ness and other network issues we had this week, do we want to talk about designating hosts for the rooms? I know that Diabolic, Zero, and Garris are the "hosts" of the room, but maybe we should get some bandwidth statistics from everyone and see who would make the best hosts in each division. It's been my experience from Lemons and 450PP club racing that when someone who I know has a large amount of bandwidth hosts the room, network issues are minimized. I'll start with the sharing.

 

[Apmaddock]

Let's say that Tommy has a running tally on the point and is sitting in pretty good in points. He now thinks about the situation and realizes that he only needs to take a 4th place finish (or better) to secure his overall win for the week given the number of drivers in the race. In the race, he's sitting in 4th place, just driving, not trying to compete with trio in from on him, and he let's the trio go - because he only needs to bring the car home in 4th place or better to win overall. Then suddenly, and without warning, 4 drivers get dropped from the race in the last lap. To make matters worse, now it's IMPOSSIBLE for Tommy to catch up and salvage his race series championship. Now all the sudden the current point system has just punished a good driver - through no fault of his own. Not cool.

Actually, this situation is no issue, at all.

If there are 12 racers in Tommy's division, fourth place nets him 9 points. Let's say that brings his total to 100 (a nice, even number). If he knew that 100 points was safe, then he knew that if the guy in second place in the overall points standings won the final race, he would get 99 points. Meaning that guy is sitting at 87 (87 total + 12 final race points = 99).

Now, if four people drop from the final race, and all of them are lower than Tommy in the final race, he will get 5 points for a fourth place finish. The other guy will get 8. So Tommy will finish at 96, and the other guy finishes at 95. He still wins by one point.

If, of the four people that drop, two of them are ahead of Tommy and two are behind, Tommy will now get second place and 7 points. The winner gets 8 again. Tommy finishes with 98, the other guy with 95. Tommy wins by an even greater margin.

The only people getting hurt are those who don't finish, and even they aren't hurt any worse than if they had finished in last place:

Three man race:
A has 10 total points
B has 9
C has 8

C wins, B gets second, A gets third.
A now has 11
B has 11
C has 11 (see what I did, there?)

C wins, B gets second, A drops out
A now has 10
B has 10
C has 10.

Problem?

Granted, it's the same overall result as getting a point for showing up but not finishing. But that's exactly the point. The outcome is the same.

 

[Apmaddock]

I don't want to share. It hurts too badly.

Of course...that's why I try to never host a room.

On the other hand, though, I have hosted a room before and things ran swimmingly.

(Actually, I just ran it and found that I'm faster that 28% of those tested. woot...)

 

[Hogster-iR]

Correct, that's the system we have in place right now. If we find that having this "all or nothing" penalty system is not working out, then we can reassess the situation and make changes as needed. The main thing I like about "all or nothing" is that it is more likely to be a deterrent to breaking the GTP OLR rules.

The problem I see with this current system is (as mentioned in one of the above posts) a driver that is unaware of contact made during a pass is then asked to forfeit the race --- after the fact. He didn't intentionally run over anyone, and would have eagerly conceded position had he been aware at the time. Instead, he raced on trying to win, as did all of his competitors.

In this instance, I feel like a time penalty would be appropriate. We could institute a flat 20-30 second penalty for such an infraction with perhaps a mandatory -1 finishing position penalty (if the applied time penalty didn't result in such). Obviously, the penalty time could be adjusted and even increased for multiple infractions in a single race.

There could even be a flat penalty for the infraction with an additional time penalty equal to the time the affected driver needed to get back up to speed. With time penalties, the options are nearly endless and can be adjusted for each occurrence.

 

[Rallywagon]

Three man race:
A has 10 total points
B has 9
C has 8

C wins, B gets second, A gets third.
A now has 11
B has 11
C has 11 (see what I did, there?)

C wins, B gets second, A drops out
A now has 10
B has 10
C has 10.

Problem?

Granted, it's the same overall result as getting a point for showing up but not finishing. But that's exactly the point. The outcome is the same.

SHouldn't this read:

Three man race:
A has 10 total points
B has 9
C has 8

C wins, B gets second, A gets third.
A now has 11
B has 11
C has 11

C wins, B gets second, A drops out
A now has 11
B has 12
C has 13.

?

BTW, I back up your math, this is correct. Both points systems accomplish the same means in the same way, just smaller numbers.

 

[dabneyd]

I don't want to share. It hurts too badly.

Of course...that's why I try to never host a room.

On the other hand, though, I have hosted a room before and things ran swimmingly.

(Actually, I just ran it and found that I'm faster that 28% of those tested. woot...)

Come on, post it! 👍

 

[Rallywagon]

1

2

1. Thats me in the lead!!!!

2. Thats my lead going bye bye on lap 5! missing shifts sucks!

 

[Rallywagon]

Hey everyone, just another reminder. Monday Mayhem starts in just over 2 hours. Don't be a

and miss out on the fun!

 

[ianjames25]

1. Thats me in the lead!!!!

2. Thats my lead going bye bye on lap 5! missing shifts sucks!

Got another one for ya! Haha

 

[Hogster-iR]

Yeah. I won't be hosting.

 

[kcheeb]

and two minutes later

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

Correct, that's the system we have in place right now. If we find that having this "all or nothing" penalty system is not working out, then we can reassess the situation and make changes as needed. The main thing I like about "all or nothing" is that it is more likely to be a deterrent to breaking the GTP OLR rules.

For example, if a driver unintentionally makes a contact as he makes a pass, I'd rather him be thinking, "Hmm, that might be considered a dirty pass - I should give back the position or else I might lose all of the points from this race!".

If the penalty is something weak like swapping points, a driver might make that same exact pass and think to himself, "Hmm, that might be considered a dirty pass - oh well, I'll just keep driving because if I get caught I'll probably only lose a few points."

See the difference? I'd rather our drivers error on the side of being overly clean than marginally dirty. That's why all this effort was put into creating the S.N.A.I.L. Steward Network. I want our league to be the cleanest league in the entire world of online racing!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope, there will be no penalty for this. I want to encourage drivers to file protests, not discourage it. The moment any driver feels discouraged from filing a protest is the moment our steward system has become a failure.

Okay, I see your point on the "all or nothing" thing. However, if both drivers feel that they did nothing wrong, then your "All or Nothing" situation will always be forced to the stewards for a ruling. ALWAYS! Why, you ask? Simply because the drive accused is looking at 100% fail if he takes the self DQ (for something he doesn't think he's done anything wrong), or a 50%-50% with the stewards. You do the math, I'll wait.
.... ...don't forget to carry the "1".... .... ...now divide by pi.... ....
See?!?!

I also completely understand the position you are taking on not wanting to discourage drivers from protesting. However, if someone is making a flood of protests and most of them are found to be complete B.S. I would think that we would start to realize this habitual protester is someone that needs a
"sit-down talking to". I mean hell, even the boy who cried "Wolf" only got so many chances before the town's people realized he was a liar. I do see Mopar's unclearly stated point, that there is a potential for the protest system to be abused - to have a driver singled out, week after week. I'm not saying that it's happened or that I suspect someone here will do that. I'm saying that I see Mopar's point, the potential is there for abuse.

 

[zer05ive]

The problem I see with this current system is (as mentioned in one of the above posts) a driver that is unaware of contact made during a pass is then asked to forfeit the race --- after the fact. He didn't intentionally run over anyone, and would have eagerly conceded position had he been aware at the time. Instead, he raced on trying to win, as did all of his competitors.

The problem I see with a driver saying that he was unaware that contact was made during a pass is that it's a cop out of an excuse - or at least can be. If a driver is unaware of contact that his car is making, that driver needs to learn to become more aware. There's no other way around it. We want our drivers to be aware of what's going around them at all times. If that's a problem for a particular driver, he needs to focus on learning how to be more aware on the track and not focus on where he finishes in the standings.

 

[kcheeb]

However, if someone is making a flood of protests and most of them are found to be complete B.S. I would think that we would start to realize this habitual protester is someone that needs a
"sit-down talking to".

I think there's a solution there

If someone starts abusing the protest facility, it's easy to have a talk with them. Too many rules and regs can get complicated fast.

 

[Rallywagon]

Ehh, not as good as I would have thought. kinda bummed. I was hoping for an A. Im going to have to call my ISP and tell them to study harder. I wonder how much better it would be if I had a wired connection instead.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

Actually, this situation is no issue, at all.

If there are 12 racers in Tommy's division, fourth place nets him 9 points. Let's say that brings his total to 100 (a nice, even number). If he knew that 100 points was safe, then he knew that if the guy in second place in the overall points standings won the final race, he would get 99 points. Meaning that guy is sitting at 87 (87 total + 12 final race points = 99).

Now, if four people drop from the final race, and all of them are lower than Tommy in the final race, he will get 5 points for a fourth place finish. The other guy will get 8. So Tommy will finish at 96, and the other guy finishes at 95. He still wins by one point.

If, of the four people that drop, two of them are ahead of Tommy and two are behind, Tommy will now get second place and 7 points. The winner gets 8 again. Tommy finishes with 98, the other guy with 95. Tommy wins by an even greater margin.

The only people getting hurt are those who don't finish, and even they aren't hurt any worse than if they had finished in last place:

Three man race:
A has 10 total points
B has 9
C has 8

C wins, B gets second, A gets third.
A now has 11
B has 11
C has 11 (see what I did, there?)

C wins, B gets second, A drops out
A now has 10
B has 10
C has 10.

Problem?

Granted, it's the same overall result as getting a point for showing up but not finishing. But that's exactly the point. The outcome is the same.

The point scale I offered was an example of some of the real world races, and it was only meant to that point. I admit I did not bother to work out the math, as the situation was meant only to illustrate a point, but the point issues are still very real. The dropped or quitting drivers are robbing possible points to be awarded from remaining drivers - this is not how it works in the real world. The points are locked down prior to the race even being started, why not do that here? Even if the highest number of points available is the number of drivers that start the race, that would be great. Instead the total possible points changes (goes down) as the race goes on due to internet issues or poor sportsmanship. Is that fair? All drivers that start a race know the possible points awarded prior to the race and should have to be thinking about how points are slipping way from them as their competition is dropping out of the race for varies reasons.

I don't think the point system idea is THAT Far Fetched. After all, it's only the most common point system is any auto race series on the planet. ...I'm just sayin'.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

My results...

 

[zer05ive]

Before I continue trying to get caught up on the posts from today, I should probably mention that there has been a significant correction made to the results from last night, and it very much affects the D1 podium.

As you know, the usual D1 host (diabolic) was not able to join the lounge. Unfortunately, he was the only one in D1 who had access to the Google Doc that the division directors use to tally points. Therefore, the points were recorded and calculated with good ol' pen and paper, and it failed us. Please click here to view the updated results.

In a nutshell, instead of Devious winning 1st by one point, it was actually Mopar who won 1st by one point. Also, Naruto got 3rd by one pint over kcheeb instead of the other way around.

The public Google Doc will be updated shortly so that everyone can dissect the new results to verify that they're correct. In the meantime, I'd like Mopar to claim which prize he wants, followed by Devious. The remaining prize will go to Naruto by default.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

The problem I see with this current system is (as mentioned in one of the above posts) a driver that is unaware of contact made during a pass is then asked to forfeit the race --- after the fact. He didn't intentionally run over anyone, and would have eagerly conceded position had he been aware at the time. Instead, he raced on trying to win, as did all of his competitors.

In this instance, I feel like a time penalty would be appropriate. We could institute a flat 20-30 second penalty for such an infraction with perhaps a mandatory -1 finishing position penalty (if the applied time penalty didn't result in such). Obviously, the penalty time could be adjusted and even increased for multiple infractions in a single race.

There could even be a flat penalty for the infraction with an additional time penalty equal to the time the affected driver needed to get back up to speed. With time penalties, the options are nearly endless and can be adjusted for each occurrence.

I REALLY like this idea about adding time to a players overall time, but it would require more information for our score keepers to keep track of. An even then, other times could be done with time penalties.

 

[Rallywagon]

Okay, I see your point on the "all or nothing" thing. However, if both drivers feel that they did nothing wrong, then your "All or Nothing" situation will always be forced to the stewards for a ruling. ALWAYS!

Soooo if they both disagree who should it be forced to for a ruling? General vote? I dont get the point of this line of discussion. Whether its all or nothing, or swapping points, if they both disagree its going to have to go to the stewards. This is also why I dont like not being able to bring up something that the stewards have found outside of just the filed grievances. Being able to dock someone even if there is no grievance, but is found in review (something like cutting sections of track for example) to be out of OLR would further impress the need and want to follow the OLR.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

Before I continue trying to get caught up on the posts from today, I should probably mention that there has been a significant correction made to the results from last night, and it very much affects the D1 podium.

As you know, the usual D1 host (diabolic) was not able to join the lounge. Unfortunately, he was the only one in D1 who had access to the Google Doc that the division directors use to tally points. Therefore, the points were recorded and calculated with good ol' pen and paper, and it failed us. Please click here to view the updated results.

In a nutshell, instead of Devious winning 1st by one point, it was actually Mopar who won 1st by one point. Also, Naruto got 3rd by one pint over kcheeb instead of the other way around.

The public Google Doc will be updated shortly so that everyone can dissect the new results to verify that they're correct. In the meantime, I'd like Mopar to claim which prize he wants, followed by Devious. The remaining prize will go to Naruto by default.

The score keeping would not be in question (even if done with good ole' pen & paper) if the point system wasn't a sliding scale.

As for the final point results, I'll let Mopar know, He's currently at a baseball game. I'm not upset with mopar getting the overall win, he ran had a great night. I'm upset about this sliding point scale. It's clear to me that this slide points scale has proven the point I made a couple post back. As a result, it move me out of the top spot.

I understand that it's been this way from the start of the league and that's fine, but everything evolves or dies. I'm not the only one who sees a problem with the current point system.

 

[Rallywagon]

Ahhh, Hogster, that is a good idea, and gets to the heart of one of my lines of debate that I didnt use above. This would essentially be like a black flag, just administered after the race. I see this as having potential. Its not like its a lot of extra data to throw into the raw race data for the records keeper, those number munchin fellows. And the negated time could be adjusted to fit the situation. Of course this negates the all or nada policy, but is better then a points swap system.