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[Dragonwhisky]

I believe the penalty system sucks. I was running some practice earlier with it off and the boundary between GT5 and GT6 has changed. The penalties are as steep as they were but they are still there. My honest opinion is in agreeince with Dragon. Run D1-D6 with no penalties, and let D6 keep the TC and driving line aids. With D6 knowing that they can not be promoted if they are using aids. Which is visible in replays anyways. In all actuality the aids are hindering because they do slow you down.

Think you might have misread or misinterpreted my comments. I'm not for no penalties, in any division. Even as bad as it is, there is no other way for us to "Enforce" track boundaries. After the fact "encouragement/discouragement", which is what all man made laws operate with, is just that. Well after the fact. I much prefer the immediate re-action the in game system uses, when it senses a boundary violation, of making us all curse and get all pissy about how crappy that system is. The offending party knows exactly what they did and why their car is now putting along and all their competition is passing them by, some snickering at the misfortune while others are praying they don't make the same mistake next time through.

 

[GranStand Bill]

So are we running the west coast division this week? Didnt see that on the list of divisions on exos help wanted post.

 

[fastfox400]

Think you might have misread or misinterpreted my comments. I'm not for no penalties, in any division. Even as bad as it is, there is no other way for us to "Enforce" track boundaries. After the fact "encouragement/discouragement", which is what all man made laws operate with, is just that. Well after the fact. I much prefer the immediate re-action the in game system uses, when it senses a boundary violation, of making us all curse and get all pissy about how crappy that system is. The offending party knows exactly what they did and why their car is now putting along and all their competition is passing them by, some snickering at the misfortune while others are praying they don't make the same mistake next time through.

Yes after rereading that it was a misinterpretation on my behalf. But the problem I see come from not just boundary violations but erronous violations. One boundary that is completely out of line is on Deep Forrest before the the first tunnel in forward. You can have 2 tires on the actual track to the right of the white line and will still get a penalty. But after coming thru the last tunnel you can cut the next turn with all four off to the right white line after the rumble stip on the left. Inconsistency is a big no-no. Also the pointless collison penalties that are not your fault. I have been rearended and pushed into the car in front of me and received a 5 sec collison penalty that cost me 5-6 spots in close racing when it was never my fault in the first place. I believe we should all race by the same rules, but on the other side off the fence I do believe those who do have the experience and car control shouldnt have to deal with the crap. Which would make Zero's idea ideal. It will allow the lower division to build experience and car control before being slung into the thick of tight racing.

In the end it would just come down to D1-D3 having to police each other, than letting the system do it for you.

 

[soundtiger95]

Think you might have misread or misinterpreted my comments. I'm not for no penalties, in any division. Even as bad as it is, there is no other way for us to "Enforce" track boundaries. After the fact "encouragement/discouragement", which is what all man made laws operate with, is just that. Well after the fact. I much prefer the immediate re-action the in game system uses, when it senses a boundary violation, of making us all curse and get all pissy about how crappy that system is. The offending party knows exactly what they did and why their car is now putting along and all their competition is passing them by, some snickering at the misfortune while others are praying they don't make the same mistake next time through.

I don't believe that the track boundary penalties are as consistent as they seem (at least with the rules that SNAIL had put in place.)

I may have missed something but the SNAIL rule is to keep two tires on the track at all times. While I agree with and follow this rule, the game doesn't always follow it. I have been through and observed multiple incidents where drivers followed this rule and were still penalized by the game.

Couple this with the terrible collision penalties and it turns into an inconsistent mess. I am sure that the stewards of this league can do a much better job at handing out penalties. Even take away points if you have to. In my opinion, it's a much more consistent and better way to run things.

 

[zer05ive]

For someone who just loves to put things up for a vote and ask for everyone's opinion...this statement should tell everyone where they stand should those opinions happen to differ from his.

Of course this is something many of us have known for a while.

Edit: I wish there was a "love" button for the post above this one.

Wow, really? You're going to use my willingness to listen to the opinions of others as a way to criticize me when I say that something is not an option? Are you kidding me?? As the founder of this league, I don't have the right to say what options are and aren't on the table. If someone were to suggest that we race on Friday nights instead of Sunday nights, am I to put that up for a vote? I guess I should because if I said it's not an option, you would accuse me of being a dictator who doesn't value the opinions of anyone but my own.

 

[tezgm99]

I think that we can do without the penalty system in GT6, anyone suspected of cutting a corner should be reported and investigated.

Isn't there an issue with shortcutting not showing up in replays or has that been fixed in an update?

 

[JLBowler]

Wow, really? You're going to use my willingness to listen to the opinions of others as a way to criticize me when I say that something is not an option? Are you kidding me?? As the founder of this league, I don't have the right to say what options are and aren't on the table. If someone were to suggest that we race on Friday nights instead of Sunday nights, am I to put that up for a vote? I guess I should because if I said it's not an option, you would accuse me of being a dictator who doesn't value the opinions of anyone but my own.

Yeah, because changing the night the league has raced on for over two years is on the same scale as changing something to make it fall in line with what the rest of the league is doing. Are you kidding me?

In case you haven't figured it out, I don't like having my opinion blown off. I have no problem with someone having a different opinion and arguing/discussing it, but I don't appreciate being blown off.

 

[fastfox400]

Isn't there an issue with shortcutting not showing up in replays or has that been fixed in an update?

Short cutting is clearly visible in the replays, regardless if it was penalized or not by the game.

 

[JLBowler]

Short cutting is clearly visible in the replays, regardless if it was penalized or not by the game.

Not necessarily. The replays seem to clean up driving lines. Example would be if someone in the race quickly moves off track and back on, the replay will sometimes show it as a clean line with the quick move removed from the replay. I have tested this by creating my own replays with that type of move added in.

 

[zer05ive]

So are we running the west coast division this week? Didnt see that on the list of divisions on exos help wanted post.

I think so, but have to confirm with @jobyone

Speaking of which, joby did you get my last email?

 

[fastfox400]

Not necessarily. The replays seem to clean up driving lines. Example would be if someone in the race quickly moves off track and back on, the replay will sometimes show it as a clean line with the quick move removed from the replay. I have tested this by creating my own replays with that type of move added in.

I havent experienced this. Mind sharing a replay and when you did the move. Every replay I have saved with a blatant short cut has still been in the replay.

 

[JLBowler]

I havent experienced this. Mind sharing a replay and when you did the move. Every replay I have saved with a blatant short cut has still been in the replay.

The blatant stuff shows up, its the subtle stuff that gets cleaned up. I have one I can share but the PS3 is shut down for the night. I can get it to you tomorrow sometime. Trial Mtn. give the best example I've seen so far. The left right after the start finish line can be cut and the replay will show a clean line. It seems to be high speed corners and not being out of bounds for very long that will create the difference between live and replay.

 

[fastfox400]

No worries. I will check it out here in a bit being I'm still up and may do some practice for tomorrow anyways.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Yes after rereading that it was a misinterpretation on my behalf. But the problem I see come from not just boundary violations but erronous violations. One boundary that is completely out of line is on Deep Forrest before the the first tunnel in forward. You can have 2 tires on the actual track to the right of the white line and will still get a penalty. But after coming thru the last tunnel you can cut the next turn with all four off to the right white line after the rumble stip on the left. Inconsistency is a big no-no. Also the pointless collison penalties that are not your fault. I have been rearended and pushed into the car in front of me and received a 5 sec collison penalty that cost me 5-6 spots in close racing when it was never my fault in the first place. I believe we should all race by the same rules, but on the other side off the fence I do believe those who do have the experience and car control shouldnt have to deal with the crap. Which would make Zero's idea ideal. It will allow the lower division to build experience and car control before being slung into the thick of tight racing.

In the end it would just come down to D1-D3 having to police each other, than letting the system do it for you.

I don't believe that the track boundary penalties are as consistent as they seem (at least with the rules that SNAIL had put in place.)

I may have missed something but the SNAIL rule is to keep two tires on the track at all times. While I agree with and follow this rule, the game doesn't always follow it. I have been through and observed multiple incidents where drivers followed this rule and were still penalized by the game.

Couple this with the terrible collision penalties and it turns into an inconsistent mess. I am sure that the stewards of this league can do a much better job at handing out penalties. Even take away points if you have to. In my opinion, it's a much more consistent and better way to run things.

Now we're getting to the real issue all the pro no penalty camp is having the problem with and where my true issue with that is. If you were hit, and in turn hit someone else, and got a collision penalty for it, where is the IR for that? If that's occurring so often across all divisions that have penalties set, then why aren't the stewards being inundated with these IRs? The SNAIL Steward Corp can do a much better job than the game, but only if we know where to look. While I won't presume to speak for the rest of the stewards, I, for one, am not going to look through 30+ races with 8 or more drivers each, looking for these events. Contrary to what others may believe, I do have a life outside of SNAIL and the kind of time needed to do that would be about an 80 hour work week. That's providing the data to do it isn't corrupted somewhere along the chain of getting it where I could look at it in the first place. The real responsibility for keeping SNAIL clean lies not with the Stewards, but with every SNAIL doing that, which seems to be the hardest of all, and report a fellow driver for an infraction. So I will throw that remark about letting the system do it for you right back down on the ground. Let every SNAIL pick it up, turn it over, and run with it.

 

[DrKronin]

It seems to me that PD didn't like how choppy people (other than the player that recorded the replay) looked in GT5 replays, so they did some smoothing, possibly using the racing line as a basis. I can see where they were coming from, but now we stewards have to base our decision not just on an imperfect representation of what happened, but a modified one.

 

[fastfox400]

Now we're getting to the real issue all the pro no penalty camp is having the problem with and where my true issue with that is. If you were hit, and in turn hit someone else, and got a collision penalty for it, where is the IR for that? If that's occurring so often across all divisions that have penalties set, then why aren't the stewards being inundated with these IRs? The SNAIL Steward Corp can do a much better job than the game, but only if we know where to look. While I won't presume to speak for the rest of the stewards, I, for one, am not going to look through 30+ races with 8 or more drivers each, looking for these events. Contrary to what others may believe, I do have a life outside of SNAIL and the kind of time needed to do that would be about an 80 hour work week. That's providing the data to do it isn't corrupted somewhere along the chain of getting it where I could look at it in the first place. The real responsibility for keeping SNAIL clean lies not with the Stewards, but with every SNAIL doing that, which seems to be the hardest of all, and report a fellow driver for an infraction. So I will throw that remark about letting the system do it for you right back down on the ground. Let every SNAIL pick it up, turn it over, and run with it.

Agreed. As I one have examined my racing history and have since been trying to police myself first. I for one am willing to do the leg work. I'm trying my best to help keep things clean. I have recently been trying trying to help the new comers to SNAIL sharpen up the rough areas in their race craft. I joined not too long ago and have had the errors of my ways pointed out to me by the vets. To be honest being overly aggressive when I started was not the best thing. Patience is a virtue that I lacked, and will always be working on being the cleanest I can be.

 

[soundtiger95]

Now we're getting to the real issue all the pro no penalty camp is having the problem with and where my true issue with that is. If you were hit, and in turn hit someone else, and got a collision penalty for it, where is the IR for that? If that's occurring so often across all divisions that have penalties set, then why aren't the stewards being inundated with these IRs? The SNAIL Steward Corp can do a much better job than the game, but only if we know where to look. While I won't presume to speak for the rest of the stewards, I, for one, am not going to look through 30+ races with 8 or more drivers each, looking for these events. Contrary to what others may believe, I do have a life outside of SNAIL and the kind of time needed to do that would be about an 80 hour work week. That's providing the data to do it isn't corrupted somewhere along the chain of getting it where I could look at it in the first place. The real responsibility for keeping SNAIL clean lies not with the Stewards, but with every SNAIL doing that, which seems to be the hardest of all, and report a fellow driver for an infraction. So I will throw that remark about letting the system do it for you right back down on the ground. Let every SNAIL pick it up, turn it over, and run with it.

Not saying collision penalties don't happen that way but the biggest problem I've seen with collision penalties is when one car goes out of control and another driver cannot avoid them, hits them, then the person who originally lost control is penalized. I've seen this happen many times in the last month or so. There really isn't anything that can be done in these situations and I don't think punishment could really be handed out.

I agree with you 100% that stewards cannot be relied on for everything and cannot be expected to put that amount of time into reviewing replays (maybe having more stewards would help?) I also agree that these things should be in the hands of all SNAILS. This is one of the reasons why I believe we should run without penalties. I believe we have a great, responsible group who knows right from wrong and are able to police themselves. IR's can be made for collisions and cutting infractions and reviewed by the stewards and penalties can be handed out. But of course, this proposal relies on the idea that everyone in SNAIL will do their part.

 

[jobyone]

I think so, but have to confirm with @jobyone

Speaking of which, joby did you get my last email?

I will be on Sunday at 9:00 pacific time. It would be cool if a few regulars could join Bill, kadoimmortal and I. Having 6+ guys on grid would be great.

Zer0 the last email I got from you was from Monday. Am I missing something?

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Not saying collision penalties don't happen that way but the biggest problem I've seen with collision penalties is when one car goes out of control and another driver cannot avoid them, hits them, then the person who originally lost control is penalized. I've seen this happen many times in the last month or so. There really isn't anything that can be done in these situations and I don't think punishment could really be handed out.

I agree with you 100% that stewards cannot be relied on for everything and cannot be expected to put that amount of time into reviewing replays (maybe having more stewards would help?) I also agree that these things should be in the hands of all SNAILS. This is one of the reasons why I believe we should run without penalties. I believe we have a great, responsible group who knows right from wrong and are able to police themselves. IR's can be made for collisions and cutting infractions and reviewed by the stewards and penalties can be handed out. But of course, this proposal relies on the idea that everyone in SNAIL will do their part.

It would be great if every SNAIL did "their part". Define "their part" however. I much more interested that every SNAIL do what they think is right. If you think it's right to get erroneous penalties, caused by another driver, and not take the 15 minutes it might take to look at your replay to get the details, then the 1-5 minutes it might take to fill out the Incident Report form, then that is your right. Just don't complain about and try to change something that wasn't the root cause of the problem.

 

[zer05ive]

Yeah, because changing the night the league has raced on for over two years is on the same scale as changing something to make it fall in line with what the rest of the league is doing. Are you kidding me?

Have you read the OP lately? If not, check out the section called "Preparation for GT Academy". Simply put, I'd like D1 to remain a good way to prepare for GT Academy. We can't do that if we turn penalties on. Rather than get in a long debate about something I'm not willing to change, I simply said it's not an option. Regardless of what you think of that, I think it's lame that you and @JoeW would try to use that to try to convince everyone that I don't value their opinion if it differs from mine. Just because I often ask for opinions and put things up for vote doesn't mean I don't have the right to retain the core direction and decisions of the league I founded. I know Joe has long harbored resentment that his ideas never seem to be implemented into the league, but you've had boatloads of ideas that have been. Therefore, I'm not sure why you share the same level of resentment after the rare occasion that of your ideas isn't.

In case you haven't figured it out, I don't like having my opinion blown off. I have no problem with someone having a different opinion and arguing/discussing it, but I don't appreciate being blown off.

How is this blowing off your opinion? In addition to that post, I've been replying to your posts all night, and ironically, complaining that you've been blowing off my opinion! If that's blowing off your opinion, I'd hate to think what you would say if I didn't even reply once. You keep saying that different track boundaries creates inconsistency across divisions, and I replied to you telling you exactly why I felt it was a non-issue. Since you made it a point to say that I didn't, I'll paste it again here:

Again, track boundariy inconsistencies are a non-issue. None of the questions about track boundaries in recent days (orever that I can think of) has been caused because penalties are off in D1. Also, we don't compare lap times between divisions so much as we compare lap times between drivers. Being one of the two people in the league who has ever discussed Promotion and Relegation, I can assure you that the penalties on/off difference has never created any difficulties in determining who should be moved from D1 to D2 and vice versa. Movement between D1 and D2 can usually be made using points/results alone. And even if we were to use lap times, your suggestion that D1 drivers are using the lack of penalties to shortcut tracks more than other divisions isn't supported by any facts that I know of.

To put it another way, if you are going to claim that track boundaries create inconsistencies, then please elaborate on what effects that has on the league. We only have one OLR, so it doesn't create inconsistency for the stewards. Each driver knows whether they have penalties on or off, so there is no inconsistency for the drivers. The only inconsistency that I can think of is the potential for faster lap times in D1 if they are taking shortcuts, but I feel I addressed that pretty extensively already. So again, please let me know what inconsistency you are referring to and how you feel it affects the league. If you do that, I promise to not "blow it off".

 

[zer05ive]

I will be on Sunday at 9:00 pacific time. It would be cool if a few regulars could join Bill, kadoimmortal and I. Having 6+ guys on grid would be great.

Zer0 the last email I got from you was from Monday. Am I missing something?

I just didn't see a reply to it, so not sure what your thoughts were on my reply to those three questions. To add to my email, I think it'd be a good idea to make an official WC division post (preferably a TOTPP) so that I can link it in the first paragraph of the OP. I currently have my initial announcement linked, but I don't think that's good enough. If you have your own post linked there, you could update it to better advertise (new graphic) and manage the division. For example, linking to a google doc with results and also including a WC driver list. 👍

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Well, there's nothing like scintillating forum conversation to keep an old fat man up all night. I think, however, it's time, for this one anyway, to find a pillow and some zzzz.

Until tomorrow gentleman. Have a good night, or morning, as it were.

 

[zer05ive]

Well, there's nothing like scintillating forum conversation to keep an old fat man up all night. I think, however, it's time, for this one anyway, to find a pillow and some zzzz.

Until tomorrow gentleman. Have a good night, or morning, as it were.

Beat you to it. Finding a pillow that is. You might beat me to the zzzzz..

 

[soundtiger95]

Have you read the OP lately? If not, check out the section called "Preparation for GT Academy". Simply put, I'd like D1 to remain a good way to prepare for GT Academy. We can't do that if we turn penalties on. Rather than get in a long debate about something I'm not willing to change, I simply said it's not an option. Regardless of what you think of that, I think it's lame that you and @JoeW would try to use that to try to convince everyone that I don't value their opinion if it differs from mine. Just because I often ask for opinions and put things up for vote doesn't mean I don't have the right to retain the core direction and decisions of the league I founded. I know Joe has long harbored resentment that his ideas never seem to be implemented into the league, but you've had boatloads of ideas that have been. Therefore, I'm not sure why you share the same level of resentment after the rare occasion that of your ideas isn't.


How is this blowing off your opinion? In addition to that post, I've been replying to your posts all night, and ironically, complaining that you've been blowing off my opinion! If that's blowing off your opinion, I'd hate to think what you would say if I didn't even reply once. You keep saying that different track boundaries creates inconsistency across divisions, and I replied to you telling you exactly why I felt it was a non-issue. Since you made it a point to say that I didn't, I'll paste it again here:

Again, track boundariy inconsistencies are a non-issue. None of the questions about track boundaries in recent days (orever that I can think of) has been caused because penalties are off in D1. Also, we don't compare lap times between divisions so much as we compare lap times between drivers. Being one of the two people in the league who has ever discussed Promotion and Relegation, I can assure you that the penalties on/off difference has never created any difficulties in determining who should be moved from D1 to D2 and vice versa. Movement between D1 and D2 can usually be made using points/results alone. And even if we were to use lap times, your suggestion that D1 drivers are using the lack of penalties to shortcut tracks more than other divisions isn't supported by any facts that I know of.

To put it another way, if you are going to claim that track boundaries create inconsistencies, then please elaborate on what effects that has on the league. We only have one OLR, so it doesn't create inconsistency for the stewards. Each driver knows whether they have penalties on or off, so there is no inconsistency for the drivers. The only inconsistency that I can think of is the potential for faster lap times in D1 if they are taking shortcuts, but I feel I addressed that pretty extensively already. So again, please let me know what inconsistency you are referring to and how you feel it affects the league. If you do that, I promise to not "blow it off".

I think Bowler feels that the D1 guys are playing by a different set of rules that the rest of the league cant benefit from. Having no penalties mean that people can cut corners and improve lap times which could lead them to staying in D1. I've heard that there is almost no difference between D1 and D2 in terms of times so those tenths of a second could be the difference between someone being demoted or staying put. If we really want to promote close racing then people should be in the right divisions.

The second part about the track boundaries is where I have a problem. You say that track boundary inconsistencies are a non issue but earlier in that same post you said:

Track boundaries weren't the motivating factor behind turning penalties off in D1. It was the issues with ghosting, collision penalties, illogical shortcut penalties etc.

Personally, I would say that illogical shortcut penalties are a track boundary issue. Also, if there are known problems and issues with the things you mentioned, why not have the same rules for all divisions? Other divisions shouldn't have to fall victim to these same issues.

I don't think anyone has said to turn penalties off for D1 but I was wondering what your input would be for going the opposite direction and having penalties turned off for all divisions (beside D6 since they are new and are just getting into the flow of things) and having all aids off for all divisions except for ABS (again, this doesn't apply to D6.) I think this creates a level playing field with everyone playing by the same rules and will create the most realistic, true spec racing experience. The races can be policed by the participants and reports can be made for collisions, track cutting etc. for the stewards to review. I just don't understand the point of giving the game a chance to make a bad call when we can make our own decisions for what is legal and what is not and have everyone follow those rules.

I think this entire argument can be summed up in one question: Why even allow the chance of inconsistencies when we don't have to at all?

 

[IceWarden]

Have you read the OP lately? If not, check out the section called "Preparation for GT Academy". Simply put, I'd like D1 to remain a good way to prepare for GT Academy. We can't do that if we turn penalties on. Rather than get in a long debate about something I'm not willing to change, I simply said it's not an option. Regardless of what you think of that, I think it's lame that you and @JoeW would try to use that to try to convince everyone that I don't value their opinion if it differs from mine. Just because I often ask for opinions and put things up for vote doesn't mean I don't have the right to retain the core direction and decisions of the league I founded. I know Joe has long harbored resentment that his ideas never seem to be implemented into the league...

If by resentment you mean I think you are a figurehead whose obvious hero worship of certain D1 members allows said members to make decisions for themselves...then you're right. When is the last time you made a decision that went against the opinion of certain outspoken longstanding D1 members?

So I'd say you most certainly do read the opinions of everyone on this thread...no doubt about it. But there is absolutely no way you'd do anything to draw the ire of your heroes. If even one of your heroes threatened to leave over any issue that came up, you'd cave in faster than I could type "puppet". To avoid appearing like a figurehead, why not just let them run their own separate SNAIL series instead of being one of many divisions in a series but having different rules than the rest?

I can't be bothered to actually fact check, but how often do you actually race in the league you founded? Word of mouth says very seldom. I'm not saying the McDonalds CEO needs to flip burgers to make proper informed decisions affecting the entire company but try watching a few episodes of Undercover Boss now and then.

You also like to point out how you have never heard of any issues within that division so why change it? If you made your own division rules, would you complain about it?

 

[Handlebar]

Agreed. As I one have examined my racing history and have since been trying to police myself first. I for one am willing to do the leg work. I'm trying my best to help keep things clean. I have recently been trying trying to help the new comers to SNAIL sharpen up the rough areas in their race craft. I joined not too long ago and have had the errors of my ways pointed out to me by the vets. To be honest being overly aggressive when I started was not the best thing. Patience is a virtue that I lacked, and will always be working on being the cleanest I can be.

Great start, you are halfway to the point @Dragonwhisky made above. Start with self policing your actions, report all violations.

To exaggerate a little: a bank is being robbed, or a drunk driver is going through your neighborhood, or some teen is trying to impress his girlfriend by repeatedly speeding and cutting a corner next to a playground... I know the guy who is doing these should be 'self monitoring' but I know I call the authorities when something is amiss.

I have some trepidation over having too many groundless penalties being filed. When the penalties have merit, it does not take long to reduce the overpopulation of problem children in the league.

 

[speer9892003]

Is there any chance I could join this league? My skill is just beginner so I'm not real good at all but I try. My psn I'd is speer9892007

 

[MerlinRPM]

I'd like to join tonight.
My PSN ID is MerlinRPM

Please let me know if you need anything else.

 

[pyxen]

If by resentment you mean I think you are a figurehead whose obvious hero worship of certain D1 members allows said members to make decisions for themselves...then you're right. When is the last time you made a decision that went against the opinion of certain outspoken longstanding D1 members?

So I'd say you most certainly do read the opinions of everyone on this thread...no doubt about it. But there is absolutely no way you'd do anything to draw the ire of your heroes. If even one of your heroes threatened to leave over any issue that came up, you'd cave in faster than I could type "puppet". To avoid appearing like a figurehead, why not just let them run their own separate SNAIL series instead of being one of many divisions in a series but having different rules than the rest?

I can't be bothered to actually fact check, but how often do you actually race in the league you founded? Word of mouth says very seldom. I'm not saying the McDonalds CEO needs to flip burgers to make proper informed decisions affecting the entire company but try watching a few episodes of Undercover Boss now and then.

You also like to point out how you have never heard of any issues within that division so why change it? If you made your own division rules, would you complain about it?

Joe, not trying to pick a fight here, and while I do agree with some of this, it's also a bit of a dick thing to say...borderline Luv2Coach, man. Don't call a guy a puppet, after he works tirelessly (and apparently from his bed) to keep things going.

Zero has a crew of D1 drivers who are revered as heroes by hundreds (thousands?) of members of GTPlanet, and has also been able to develop support from Jordan as well. This league has been developed into a top tier organization, and is incredibly well run, mostly on the backs of dedicated volunteers who do this because they love it, and it has become a spotlight league as a result of it.

Zero has the right to make decisions that 1) retain his "stars" and 2) make him happy. Since the decisions made in #2 are usually (always?) for the betterment of the WHOLE league, I think the majority of the racers support them. Look at the MASSIVE influx of racers we've seen in just the last few weeks...insane, and I think unprecedented.

Now, all that said, as the times between D1 and D2 are definitely coming together, maybe this D1 pilot should be expanded to include D2, to see how things shape up...pilots end, and then things either get implemented/expanded, or go back to the way it was.

Maybe some D1 drivers would be dropped back to the "farm league", and some D2 guys could/should be bumped up for a season or two as a result of it? I can't really think of a reason not to push it down to D2... but I don't agree with ending at D3, because frankly the racing in D4 has been awesome, and I think we deserve it as well...Why wouldn't D5 think the same thing? Maybe D6 then to keep things fair ??

No that's a bit much -- D1/D2 no penalties should work, because those are the two where the aliens would reside/visit/vacation. The jump from D3 to D2 should come with the benefit of no penalties, because you're at a point where your control is good enough not to need them.. D1 is a world of it's own, and as has been argued, outside the normal divisional stream...SNAIL is really D2-D6, with a premiere division to be proud of. All of the rules and work can be though of for D2-D6, with the director work/stewards/governance/management benefiting D1 from a results perspective as well...

Regarding the last time he raced - if Zero's dedication to the organization has remained this high, while he hasn't benefited from any of his hard work directly, I think we all need to take a minute to recognize this. I know I wouldn't do it. When my interest in something falls off, or my ability to participate in the activity is reduced, I back away.

When's the last time Bernie took a corner in an F1 car? Anyone EVER say anything about that ?

 

[pyxen]

Is there any chance I could join this league? My skill is just beginner so I'm not real good at all but I try. My psn I'd is speer9892007

I'd like to join tonight.
My PSN ID is MerlinRPM

Please let me know if you need anything else.

Skills will be along soon I'm sure, but til there, see this post


...........ooops, sorry for the dbl post!