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[Handlebar]

Crazy idea... Why not use the S2000 / Deep Forest Reverse track AS the test bed?

Grab a couple of SNAILS one night, run a few quick ones and compare to the amount of data we have?

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I still don't like the concept of looking at lap/gap times to determine promotion and relegation. Drivers should be promoted and relegated based on their on-track success, not the lap times they post. Setting hot laps is what the qualifying session is for. Beating your rivals on the track is what the races are for.

But, what if you beat them, but the fastest person in that division, you, still aren't fast enough for the next division. I'm not saying ignore place, I'm just saying that place isn't guaranteed promotion.

Mind you, I think this is moot with the month long series idea...

You mean like this? Sound good to me. 👍

...if you are willing to set aside time for new drivers to put in time trials. I like this idea, if for no other reason, but it gets the divisions more closely leveled. I think a lot of our problems in D3 could be fixed simply by not having to deal with really good new drivers or D1/D2 drivers relegated for being lazy.

Some ideas to spice up the month long series concept...

We have three rounds as normal. One round is static for the month. Zero, Cheeb, and the leadership (not sure who that should be, just those two?) field ideas and put together a list of five or six car/track combos that they think would be good. We have a poll, and the one with the most votes goes in.

The other two rotate like we have today. The one of those with the most votes goes away completely, the other goes away half.

During the first week of the month, the winners of D1 get to pick. During the second week, D2, and the third week D3. (That, alone, would take care of a lot of the other problems in D3). Not sure what to do during the fourth and fifth weeks. I'd hate to bombard everyone with polls, but... I do like the idea of Miss/Mister Congeniality. Perhaps we take three people, one from each of the three divisions, the person that is liked the most, that is the most sporting, as voted on by everyone else in the division. Maybe that could be the panel for the fourth week.

And for the fifth week... maybe the three first place finishers. Since not every month will have a fifth week.

Mind you... it wouldn't bother me if we only changed one car/track combo a week. The idea being, trying to keep around ones that come up from an individual during the season that we actually like. Still, this is just technicalities to be tweaked. The base idea is unchanged, and something I like.


July is coming soon, any interest in trying to start this idea for July?

 

[kcheeb]

With a 4-5 week mini-season, consistency will definitely be rewarded. Those who finish consistently at the top will get promoted. Those who finish consistently at the bottom will get relegated.

This will also put a premium on getting the divisions right, if we stick someone above or below their heads in skill, they wait a month to be moved.

Also, if we get an influx of D1, D2 or D3 drivers and run out of room, we'd be shuffling or have a wait list. We do have anywhere from 4 to 6 slots available in each division, but thinking it through is always good.

Yes, we can either us time trials (like esh mentioned above) or tcrash's Wednesday night races. Either way would be fine by me.

I'd think we'd have to offer both options with Wednesday being the preferred option as it shows skill in traffic. Not all the new people are going to be available to run Wednesday night or join before Wednesday and we should have a decent way to slot them into the right Division.

 

[kcheeb]

Crazy idea... Why not use the S2000 / Deep Forest Reverse track AS the test bed?

Grab a couple of SNAILS one night, run a few quick ones and compare to the amount of data we have?

Not a crazy idea, no really Challenging track and a car you have to pay attention too 👍

I've been working on a small project to consolidate the numbers from the spreadsheets. It's pretty easy to get them for each division for just about any night. Would be best to use a race we have all the data from all divisions though.

 

[irmopars]

Car - Dodge Challenger Srt8
Track - London
We had a parity race there and it was quite fun!

at work still, haven't had time to read all posts made today.

Zero: Nascars were a bit to uncontrollable with the torque they have at a Nascar driven track with "aids" (Tcs) off

 

[dabneyd]

Car - Dodge Challenger Srt8
Track - London

At least it's not the Enzo on Autumn Ring Mini. :\

 

[JLBowler]

Allrighty then. SNAILs, get ready to turn left, then left again, the left again, and left one more time. We will be keeping the Viper ACR but taking it to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway (oval in case there was any doubt).

 

[esh]

Wow, I thought you were talking about London reverse for a second...

 

[kcheeb]

Allrighty then. SNAILs, get ready to turn left, then left again, the left again, and left one more time. We will be keeping the Viper ACR but taking it to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway (oval in case there was any doubt).

Let's go racin'

 

[JLBowler]

Wow, I thought you were talking about London reverse for a second...

I wouldn't take a big wide car with tons of power and put it on a tiny city course.

 

[Apmaddock]

Well, I've read everything posted today, and here's my input:

I don't like it.

I could get behind a system where new drivers are placed in a division.

I think that there needs to be a different/worse penalty for no-showing.

Lap times in a race should never be used as a qualification for division.

A month long series with a community chosen combination? No thanks.

Taking the choices from Division 1? That's just sour grapes in my mind.

One thing that I really like about S.N.A.I.L. is the variation in combos. I don't care what the cars are. I thought the Corvette last week was awesome! It had loads of downforce and RM tires. It only got squirrelly when you were slowed down in it. I won't rant again about how I barely got to race it…

…that said the Challenger in London is kind of idiotic.

 

[Apmaddock]

A question was asked of the Stewards this week, so I thought I'd make the answer public so nobody wonders about this in the future. (At least, one can hope.)

Q: If a driver shows up late and misses the first race, should they wait for the field to pass them after the start of the second race, since they will be at an advantage by starting in pole position?

A: No. There is no reason to do that. No actual advantage can be gained by trying to "game" the system by intentionally showing up late for the first race, as the driver that does that loses out on a maximum of 16 points. If he had shown up and parked the car, he would have gotten at least 5 points (given a 12 driver grid) and still started in the front. By not showing up, he's actually in "worse than last" place, so starting at the pole is really where he belongs.

Furthermore, this driver is not causing a problem for those who showed up for the first race. He may be making it one spot more difficult for the driver who won the first race to win this one, but this driver should have been there, anyway, so potentially he made it easier for those drivers to win the first race.


To go along with this, the Division leader has no reason to restart a race that you are late for. Nor will he need to delay or extend qualifying so that a late-comer can get a lap in. A slight delay so that a person loading into a room can join a race not yet in progress is fine, however, so long as it does not impede the progress of the evening's races and getting finished in a timely manner.

 

[Apmaddock]

At least it's not the Enzo on Autumn Ring Mini. :\

That might be better. The road is wider.

 

[zer05ive]

First of all, I had a lot of fun last Sunday, I was bored of looking for a room where people don't ram you into a wall at the first opportunity they have.

Glad you had fun! Isn't racing is so much more enjoyable when everyone is trying to be clean? 👍

I know I have only race with you one week, but I have a couple of ideas after reading the last few post.

It doesn't matter how long you've been with us, new ideas are always welcome! Don't be afraid to speak up!

I believe there are three prizes A, B and C. Right? Why don't you alternate those prizes through the overall winner of each division?

I brought up this idea at the end of April (in the very last paragraph of this post), but the in the end we decided to keep the prize structure the way it has been all along. But again, it's all open for discussion so we'll see where the conversation takes us. I personally like the way it is now.

 

[zer05ive]

I love the idea of promotion and relegation being done every four or five weeks. Just do it the first week of each month so it's easily understood. As was stated above, if this is done, then the qualification and placement of new drivers in the proper division is a necessity. It wouldn't be fair to D3 to put a new driver with D1 skills and leave them there for a month.

Yup, that's exactly where I got those numbers from. A quick glance at a calendar shows you that every month in the year has four of five Sundays. Each month would be its own season. Keeps it simple. 👍

I went ahead put together a ranking system for all SNAIL drivers and I have all the results loaded in since we started the perfect 100 system of points. This could probably used as a good tool when it comes time to promote and relegate each month if we wanted to use it.

I can't wait to see what you've put together. Ever since we started using our Perfect 100 points system, I've been toying with line graphs in Google Docs to so that everyone could see how they have progressed over the weeks. In order to prevent all of the lines from each division from overlapping each other, I intended to add a 50 point "difficulty bonus" to the drivers in D2 and then add a 100 point "difficulty bonus" to the drivers in D1. That way, these would be the scoring ranges for each division:

• Division 3: 0-100 points
• Division 2: 50-150 points
• Division 3: 100-200 points

I was intending to call this graph "SNAIL Trails" because the lines in the graph would represent each SNAILs rise and fall in performance over the course of time. If a driver got promoted, there would be a spike in the drivers line due to the 50 point "difficulty bonus" added to his tally. If anyone out there is good with graphs and would be willing to put this together, please let me know!

I also like the idea of spreading around the decision of car and track selection among the divisions. I think maybe the rotating idea is the best proposal out there so far. I really don't have any thoughts to do it, but I'm open to anything that involves more drivers in the decision making process.

I like more drivers involved in the decision making process as well, but removing the prizes from the D1 podium takes away the well-earned perks of that accomplishment. I think this whole situation would be unnecessary if the car and track combos would always be agreeable to all, but then again, I feel like difficult car and track combos are the exception and not the rule.

 

[JLBowler]

Zero, I used a multiplier for D1 and D2 to give added weight to the higher divisions (a win in D3 is not the same as a win in D2 is not the same as a win in D1). Basically a win in D3 is on the same level with a 7th place run in D2 and a win in D2 is on par with a 7th place run in D1. This allows us to see over a period of time who should be considered for promotion or relegation.

It's completely updated right now and it's in an excel document. I can copy and paste into the thread or I can copy and paste into a PM for you to take a look at first.

 

[tezgm99]

I just went to CalgaryJobShop and did a search for Civil Engineer, got a bunch of hits. Not sure if you want to move or not ...

Had a couple at the City of Calgary too,

At this point in time, I'm open to moving so long as they don't mind waiting while they help me sort out a work permit with HRSDC in order to work for them (fill out the right forms basically)

GT5-related stuff so I don't get this thread closed down
My parents will be here until the middle of next week, but that Sunday is Canada Day so I may be going away....haven't finalised plans yet but I doubt I'd be ready to go after a couple days practice given I haven't been using the wheel for the last couple of weeks (the table it uses is being utilised by my parents for their stuff, lol) :/

 

[Chiochan]

Zero you might not want to call it "SNAIL Trails". That has a pornographic sound to it.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Car - Dodge Challenger Srt8
Track - London
We had a parity race there and it was quite fun!

If I remember correctly, that parity race was horrible. I think we had 207s and Minis, which fit that track better than a big V8. But we had twice as many people show up that night as we normally do. So the six to seven drivers I was expecting would've fit. the 12 or 14 we had made it a roller derby.

Seriously though, this is the third car/track combo that I can think of from you that will far and away be a one-and-done combo. No offense, but... I don't think you get it.

 

[zer05ive]

Zero, I used a multiplier for D1 and D2 to give added weight to the higher divisions (a win in D3 is not the same as a win in D2 is not the same as a win in D1). Basically a win in D3 is on the same level with a 7th place run in D2 and a win in D2 is on par with a 7th place run in D1. This allows us to see over a period of time who should be considered for promotion or relegation.

It's completely updated right now and it's in an excel document. I can copy and paste into the thread or I can copy and paste into a PM for you to take a look at first.

Let's see it! I've looked into my crystal ball and I predict that I should be considered for relegation to D2!

Zero you might not want to call it "SNAIL Trails". That has a pornographic sound to it.

Yeah I thought about that too, but I was hoping most people wouldn't make that association.

 

[irmopars]

If I remember correctly, that parity race was horrible. I think we had 207s and Minis, which fit that track better than a big V8. But we had twice as many people show up that night as we normally do. So the six to seven drivers I was expecting would've fit. the 12 or 14 we had made it a roller derby.

Seriously though, this is the third car/track combo that I can think of from you that will far and away be a one-and-done combo. No offense, but... I don't think you get it.

I think the penalty system is flawed, for this I chose the combo above. There will be contact made, and lots of penalty's given, due to the penalty systems flawed logic. It seems some people can be told over and over something is flawed but cannot see it, so they need to see it with their own eyes, in action.

Case in point, the sliding point scale, concerns were brought up about its flaws, but were shot down due to the "rare" chances of said flaw happening were 1 in a million. 2 weeks later said flaw showed up, the "Oh you were right" came out, and it was adjusted, but it took nothing less than Devious to prove the the point to everyone by actions.

 

[Dragonwar233]

I don't get all this hate on Mopar's combo, it sounds very exciting, London is one of the best tracks in game. I am hating Bowlers oval track choice much more, which will remove skill from the race as anybody can turn left over and over and then go straight.

 

[Apmaddock]

I could already see where there is an agenda in what you picked, mopar, and your stating it only makes me more disheartened.

 

[esh]

I could already see where there is an agenda in what you picked, mopar, and your stating it only makes me more disheartened.

Well, that's the silliness that D1 really is. Hopefully it will be less so now that there isn't anyone to throw toys out the pram...

 

[JLBowler]

I don't get all this hate on Mopar's combo, it sounds very exciting, London is one of the best tracks in game. I am hating Bowlers oval track choice much more, which will remove skill from the race as anybody can turn left over and over and then go straight.

Gee, London = follow the leader or make contact trying to get around

Indy = pass anywhere you want with a nice wide track

I could have picked Daytona then we wouldn't even have to lift or I could have picked a combo where the car doesn't have enough gear for the track (that's always fun).

Which one is going to make for better racing? If we were looking for a glorified time trial, London would be great.

Wasn't it brough up a long time ago that if someone picked too many one and done combos, we might look at taking away your ability to choose combos? I don't remember for sure when this was and I really don't remember if there was any outcome to it.

If certain people don't like my selection, I don't care as long as the outcome is close, competitive racing. You say it doesn't take any skill to run an oval, I say it doesn't take any skill to.... I'll stop there so as not to single anyone out.

 

[Apmaddock]

That last bit's a sensible idea.

 

[Nicktune]

Since we will get onto the Nordsheifle this week, I'm not sure how things will go. We'll see.

Any car + Nurburgring always equal "awesome".

 

[irmopars]

Gee, London = follow the leader or make contact trying to get around

Indy = pass anywhere you want with a nice wide track

I could have picked Daytona then we wouldn't even have to lift or I could have picked a combo where the car doesn't have enough gear for the track (that's always fun).


Wasn't it brough up a long time ago that if someone picked too many one and done combos, we might look at taking away your ability to choose combos? I don't remember for sure when this was and I really don't remember if there was any outcome to it.

London, is there a problem with making contact? Racing is all about running door to door, rubbing and bumping is it not? Or are we all wanting to be driving on eggs now that the new Penalty system is in place? God forbid i bump into someone, i get docked 1-4 points!

Indy = Let the leader be the loser, because any smart driver will draft past him in the final set of corners = WIN! Promoted sandbagging something we really want? Which is why i try to avoid HUGE straights near the finish line.

A car with not enough gear for the track, im not sure what your talking about there. The cars i have picked never topped out at tracks. Came close, maybe, the Vette had another 10-15 MPH before it topped out.

Wasn't it brought up a long time ago that if someone joined late in race 1, they would pull over during race 2 and allow the field to go by, by turn 1? I don't remember for sure when this was and I do remember the outcome was (made by Zero in the room at the time it happened), they were to fall back. This came about when you joined late one race. The magic wand was waved over this ruling and all was forgotten, no biggie.

Or when 9 O'clock rolls around and Qualifying starts, but there's only about 7 people in the room. The rest joined a few minutes later, and Qualifying is Restarted so you get your full time in, or so you can reset the timer to end at 10 minutes instead of the 14 total minutes it would of been? Seems a bit unfair to those who were there when it started.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I think the penalty system is flawed, for this I chose the combo above. There will be contact made, and lots of penalty's given, due to the penalty systems flawed logic. It seems some people can be told over and over something is flawed but cannot see it, so they need to see it with their own eyes, in action.

Case in point, the sliding point scale, concerns were brought up about its flaws, but were shot down due to the "rare" chances of said flaw happening were 1 in a million. 2 weeks later said flaw showed up, the "Oh you were right" came out, and it was adjusted, but it took nothing less than Devious to prove the the point to everyone by actions.

I admit, I don't like the penalty system. We've had a debate about it in the stewards forum, and it is going in a direction that I don't like.

That is said in the interest of full disclosure.

Now, as to the track pick, please change it. I don't want to sound rude, but... let's be mature and don't ruin everyone's Sunday evening just to "prove a point".

As to the Indy course selection... eh... I agree there are tracks that I like better, that would still be appropriate for the Viper. But... you know... I can't really see how this course is all that bad. Yes, the person in front is vulnerable, so... don't be in front.

I will say this, though... The Viper at Indy will create much closer racing than the 'Vette did at R246. I, and others like me, had no chance of winning that race. We didn't even have a chance of actually racing. We were very quickly left behind. With the Viper at Indy, even a crappy driver like me has a chance of beating anyone in D2 if not most in D1.

Now, having said that, I wouldn't want an oval track but so often. If the SRT8 at London wasn't on the docket, then yes, I'd vote off the Viper at Indy.

On a tangent, I think the Viper at Suzuka or Fuji or Daytona Road would be fun. Maybe even one of the Nurburg GP courses or HSR.

 

[irmopars]

I admit, I don't like the penalty system. We've had a debate about it in the stewards forum, and it is going in a direction that I don't like.

There are more then a few of us, who dont like where its going. Is there anything being done about it (im asking because i dont know, not a Steward). Saying its flawed and needs to be changed doesnt seem to be heard.

Now, as to the track pick, please change it. I don't want to sound rude, but... let's be mature and don't ruin everyone's Sunday evening just to "prove a point".

Not sounding rude at all, but i must ask, it seems you do AGREE there is a "Point to prove" in my pickings?
I have already asked about changing tracks, no word yet from Zero.

Yes, the person in front is vulnerable, so... don't be in front.

Case in point, sandbag to not be in front.....