10 reasons why Ferrari Challenge is better than GT5P

[Diffuk]

I'm thinking of getting this as its quite cheap now... does it have a very active fanbase online?

 

[Biggles]

I'm thinking of getting this as its quite cheap now... does it have a very active fanbase online?

No, I wouldn't call it "very active". There is a small, but dedicated online fanbase - much more participation in EU than NA. The only positive aspect is that the ability to organize events the way you wish, means it is possible to link up with the people you want to race with & have a higher percentage of quality races when other people are actually online.

 

[The Jenius]

I think the comparisons are well deserved and have posted a similar comment on the IGN message boards about being honest with myself concerning the GT series. I have had every single GT game and am very good at all of them, but I have started to be very honest with myself starting with the purchase of my own real Elise and then with the introduction of Forza and finally when i got to play F1 Championship Edition. I notice that GT is not very accurate and seems uninspired, almost sterile. The 1st is the sound when you hear the cars in Forza and F1, they sound like you expect them to sound. I have a Lotus so i don't want to hear well Forza is overdone and GT5P is just right. It’s not, period. Even Forza misses the top end 7k plus itself. There is a terrific change in exhaust note and noticeable increase in acceleration.

The second thing is the physics. GT seems almost borderline marketing BS to me lately. I have done some track time in my Elise, not significant but that, added with the fact that I drive it everyday makes me a very accurate source. The cars in GT5P and less so in Forza are too damn tail happy and i don’t know why. I have driven at some retarded speeds around some corners, some on track some on public streets all on stock tires and never, never have I seen the pronounced mushiness of brakes and under steer or the stupid back end sliding that apparently is hard as hell to correct. The car always feels planted and it irritates me that GT5P cannot get it right.

I feel as though we all give the game too much credit, granted i will be waiting in line for the game but I am tired of hearing this is just like a real car, when it’s not a close representation of it at all. I am starting to think of GT5P like Madden in the sense that they hype their numbers and stick to one marketing tactic and it sticks. GT is all about numbers and "saying" it is a real life sim when it’s not really close at all. It’s sort of like great artist who do something retarded like kick a hole in a canvas and then the public is all like he must be deep because he just kicked the easel. But when you really look at it, it’s just some terrible crap that people hype up because its "supposed" to be this grand thing.

Sorry for the rant but I just feel a little let down after experiencing some more accurate, and 1 completely accurate representations of real cars.

 

[Biggles]

I think the comparisons are well deserved and have posted a similar comment on the IGN message boards about being honest with myself concerning the GT series. I have had every single GT game and am very good at all of them, but I have started to be very honest with myself starting with the purchase of my own real Elise and then with the introduction of Forza and finally when i got to play F1 Championship Edition. I notice that GT is not very accurate and seems uninspired, almost sterile. The 1st is the sound when you hear the cars in Forza and F1, they sound like you expect them to sound. I have a Lotus so i don't want to hear well Forza is overdone and GT5P is just right. It’s not, period. Even Forza misses the top end 7k plus itself. There is a terrific change in exhaust note and noticeable increase in acceleration.

The second thing is the physics. GT seems almost borderline marketing BS to me lately. I have done some track time in my Elise, not significant but that, added with the fact that I drive it everyday makes me a very accurate source. The cars in GT5P and less so in Forza are too damn tail happy and i don’t know why. I have driven at some retarded speeds around some corners, some on track some on public streets all on stock tires and never, never have I seen the pronounced mushiness of brakes and under steer or the stupid back end sliding that apparently is hard as hell to correct. The car always feels planted and it irritates me that GT5P cannot get it right.

I feel as though we all give the game too much credit, granted i will be waiting in line for the game but I am tired of hearing this is just like a real car, when it’s not a close representation of it at all. I am starting to think of GT5P like Madden in the sense that they hype their numbers and stick to one marketing tactic and it sticks. GT is all about numbers and "saying" it is a real life sim when it’s not really close at all. It’s sort of like great artist who do something retarded like kick a hole in a canvas and then the public is all like he must be deep because he just kicked the easel. But when you really look at it, it’s just some terrible crap that people hype up because its "supposed" to be this grand thing.

Sorry for the rant but I just feel a little let down after experiencing some more accurate, and 1 completely accurate representations of real cars.

Wow, you've got some balls my friend, coming on here & making a post like that!

I'm not quite sure exactly what you're trying to say, however. That GT is not as accurate as it's cracked up to be? That it's not close to RL? That other games are better - Forza, FC, F1CE? Perhaps you can clarify.

For myself, I feel that the GT series is often cut too much slack here: that it has been a groundbreaking franchise in the past, that it has always led the way in graphic quality with both cars & tracks, but has only had so-so physics & has fallen seriously behind in areas like AI, damage, weather etc. In addition, while KY's creations have been a kind of ode to automotive beauty, they are lacking the gritty excitement of actual racing.

On the other hand, no other game provides the complete package either: each game has it's strong points & weaknesses. I sometimes wonder if PD hasn't created a problem for itself by putting out games with such huge content, that so much of its resources are spent on the sheer volume of the game that other important elements of a good racing sim get short-changed.

In any case, it's been so long since the last full GT game, that it's possible that PD really will come up with the complete package when GT5 finally appears.

 

[Mad Matt]

Brave indeed :-) However as an MR2 (mk3) owner I would tend to agree.

It seems to me that GT5P has taken many steps forward in modelling more elements which effect the cars handling but hasn't managed to increase the feedback at the same time. This leaves me driving by memory and not feel. To get a fast lap I have to learn by rote where to brake, how hard, how long, when to turn when to accelerate etc.

With Ferrari Challenge I get more feedback so I don't rely so much on memory. The Ferrari Challenge physics engine is, in my opinion, more basic but can be more enjoyable because I get more feedback.

 

[Jack]

I think the comparisons are well deserved and have posted a similar comment on the IGN message boards about being honest with myself concerning the GT series. I have had every single GT game and am very good at all of them, but I have started to be very honest with myself starting with the purchase of my own real Elise and then with the introduction of Forza and finally when i got to play F1 Championship Edition. I notice that GT is not very accurate and seems uninspired, almost sterile. The 1st is the sound when you hear the cars in Forza and F1, they sound like you expect them to sound. I have a Lotus so i don't want to hear well Forza is overdone and GT5P is just right. It’s not, period. Even Forza misses the top end 7k plus itself. There is a terrific change in exhaust note and noticeable increase in acceleration.

The second thing is the physics. GT seems almost borderline marketing BS to me lately. I have done some track time in my Elise, not significant but that, added with the fact that I drive it everyday makes me a very accurate source. The cars in GT5P and less so in Forza are too damn tail happy and i don’t know why. I have driven at some retarded speeds around some corners, some on track some on public streets all on stock tires and never, never have I seen the pronounced mushiness of brakes and under steer or the stupid back end sliding that apparently is hard as hell to correct. The car always feels planted and it irritates me that GT5P cannot get it right.

I feel as though we all give the game too much credit, granted i will be waiting in line for the game but I am tired of hearing this is just like a real car, when it’s not a close representation of it at all. I am starting to think of GT5P like Madden in the sense that they hype their numbers and stick to one marketing tactic and it sticks. GT is all about numbers and "saying" it is a real life sim when it’s not really close at all. It’s sort of like great artist who do something retarded like kick a hole in a canvas and then the public is all like he must be deep because he just kicked the easel. But when you really look at it, it’s just some terrible crap that people hype up because its "supposed" to be this grand thing.

Sorry for the rant but I just feel a little let down after experiencing some more accurate, and 1 completely accurate representations of real cars.

Few things to pick up on. First of all you don’t mention what physics you drive in. Standard or Professional? You also don’t mention which Elise you drive?

Although I agree with you in some points you have made, like PD are playing catch up with their latest release, there is a lot I don’t

You talk about the Elise being to tail happy. I strongly disagree with you. If anything the Elise is very reluctant to step out of line and I think it should be more 'wild'. Having not driven one myself I don’t have a reference point, but I think the car needs to be more loose. An example of this is Dan (Holl01) lap in IFTC:



The car is very tidy and smooth through the whole lap, with none of these oversteer or understeer moments you talk of.

I also think that the sounds in Forza are actually better than in GT5. I believe this is on major area PD need to improve and Forza are better (based on Forza 2 and GT5).

 

[Zer0]

The second thing is the physics. GT seems almost borderline marketing BS to me lately. I have done some track time in my Elise, not significant but that, added with the fact that I drive it everyday makes me a very accurate source. The cars in GT5P and less so in Forza are too damn tail happy and i don’t know why. I have driven at some retarded speeds around some corners, some on track some on public streets all on stock tires and never, never have I seen the pronounced mushiness of brakes and under steer or the stupid back end sliding that apparently is hard as hell to correct. The car always feels planted and it irritates me that GT5P cannot get it right.

A completely different point of view:

It's important to remember that a car's handling depends on how the weight of the engine shifts between the front and rear of the vehicle. A mid-engine car has a very neutral balance when not accelerating or braking, a state known as "even throttle." Therefore, when you step on the throttle in a mid-engine car, you force the majority of the car's weight onto the rear tires, generating grip. Conversely, if you lift off the throttle, you force the weight of the car onto the front tires, losing traction in the rear. For this reason, you almost always have to be on-throttle before you even enter a turn (especially in fast corners) for the car to maintain maximum grip and control. In a turn, "lifting-off" will cause the car to spin; simple as that. Add to this the fact that on slick racing tires grip doesn't break very progressively, and you realize how easy it is to do something stupid in a formula race car.

Light, mid-engine cars are the ultimate test for a simulation game then. They change direction quickly, and balancing them properly is a detailed affair. There are several cars that mimic this performance in Gran Turismo 5: Prologue, but none do it better than the '96 Lotus Elise. Its power may seem modest at 120bhp, but weighing in at just 720 kg (1587 lbs), the car is still quick and incredibly nimble; and because it has no bulky weight at the corners to betray its mid-engine design, it's a real freakin' handful.

You see, this is where I am most impressed with Gran Turismo 5: Prologue. No other racing game has this level of physics detail. Playing on "professional" mode (real-world physics) with no electronic aids, if you lift off the throttle mid-turn, the rear of the Elise quickly breaks loose. If you snap back onto the throttle, the rear end squats down on its rubber and the car straightens itself out, just like it would out on a real racetrack. It's amazingly impressive, because most racing games, even previous GT titles, just don't have the same accuracy that GT5: Prologue does. The level of precision you can achieve is surprisingly accurate, meaning you can generate big, controllable slip angles. The limits feel both progressive and exploitable, but take it too far and you will pay the price, just as you would in a real car.

http://ps3.kombo.com/article.php?artid=6055

 

[Boffin]

Few things to pick up on. First of all you don’t mention what physics you drive in. Standard or Professional? You also don’t mention which Elise you drive?

Although I agree with you in some points you have made, like PD are playing catch up with their latest release, there is a lot I don’t

You talk about the Elise being to tail happy. I strongly disagree with you. If anything the Elise is very reluctant to step out of line and I think it should be more 'wild'. Having not driven one myself I don’t have a reference point, but I think the car needs to be more loose. An example of this is Dan (Holl01) lap in IFTC:

*snip*

The car is very tidy and smooth through the whole lap, with none of these oversteer or understeer moments you talk of.

I also think that the sounds in Forza are actually better than in GT5. I believe this is on major area PD need to improve and Forza are better (based on Forza 2 and GT5).

But that's down to driving style. In the enhance your skills comp, Holl01's replay of the Amuse around fuji on S2s had little to no wheel spin. If I wanted, I could probably do that too - and Holl01 probably wasn't trying to get understeery, oversteery moments - smooth was the key.

On the other hand, if I'm arcading in a 111r on s3s, I can get the tail out just about anytime I want. It's not drifting or anything, it's more about the aggressive entries into corners sparking some lift off oversteer that hangs around when you put the power down. These characteristics are of course amplified in the tuned version.
I remember taking the stock one round HSR reverse for the enhance your skills comp. Try it. On S2s, the back will become a bit lively if you put the power down too early on the S bend - and that's at speed.

As for the 190, I haven't tried it, although granted, there wouldn't be much of a chance because the thing can get burned off down the straight by a Golf Gti, so theres not much power to play with through the corners.

 

[Biggles]

To get a fast lap I have to learn by rote where to brake, how hard, how long, when to turn when to accelerate etc.

With Ferrari Challenge I get more feedback so I don't rely so much on memory. The Ferrari Challenge physics engine is, in my opinion, more basic but can be more enjoyable because I get more feedback.

This is the point I have been making all along. The fact is, it's possible to drive very fast in GT5P, but only by learning precisely where the braking points are by multiple repetition (which everyone has had LOTS of opportunity to do because there are so few tracks!) NOT by "feel". I don't get the sense that the physics in FC are very true to the actual cars, but they are deep - it's more important to match car revs, balance the car under braking, avoid wheel spin under acceleration than it is in GT5P - & there is much more feel to the FFB - it's possible to make constant adjustments to the speed of the car based on what you feel the tires are doing.

 

[Jack]

But that's down to driving style. In the enhance your skills comp, Holl01's replay of the Amuse around fuji on S2s had little to no wheel spin. If I wanted, I could probably do that too - and Holl01 probably wasn't trying to get understeery, oversteery moments - smooth was the key.

Of course its down to driving style. Everybody has a different style to driving a car, different lines and different inputs. That video shows Dan trying to drive as fast as possible but attacking the course. Check his inputs, he is on the throttle every early in corners and attacks them with confidence. Also check over videos from this round, they are also the same. When throwing the car around like this and making it unbalanced, oversteer and understeer can be achieved and found every easily, but the 111r stays very neutral.

On the other hand, if I'm arcading in a 111r on s3s, I can get the tail out just about anytime I want. It's not drifting or anything, it's more about the aggressive entries into corners sparking some lift off oversteer that hangs around when you put the power down. These characteristics are of course amplified in the tuned version.
I remember taking the stock one round HSR reverse for the enhance your skills comp. Try it. On S2s, the back will become a bit lively if you put the power down too early on the S bend - and that's at speed.

Of course, when hooning around trying to get the car to shift about, it can be done in a very controlled manner. On entry and mid corner, lift off oversteer can be found nicely and its very controllable not in the ‘uncontrolled’ manner The Jenius describes.

What I’m saying is, 'The Jenius' calls his Lotus a dream to drive and not the one in GT5.

I have driven at some retarded speeds around some corners, some on track some on public streets all on stock tires and never, never have I seen the pronounced mushiness of brakes and under steer or the stupid back end sliding that apparently is hard as hell to correct. The car always feels planted and it irritates me that GT5P cannot get it right.

He calls the car unbalance and hard to correct. From my previous comments I’ve answered them 👍

 

[Jay]

The fact is, it's possible to drive very fast in GT5P, but only by learning precisely where the braking points are by multiple repetition (which everyone has had LOTS of opportunity to do because there are so few tracks!) NOT by "feel".

Fact?

As I had said multiple times in many threads I rarely use braking markers at all, I go by feel. I have no troubles what so ever with GT5P and feel. Some people have stated in this thread that they do, well thats unfortunate but it's hardly "fact" that you can't drive by feel in GT5P.

 

[Biggles]

It's not an absolute, but a relative thing: there is feel in GT5P's FFB, but not to the same degree as in FC.

I'm just wondering Jay; have you tried FC with a FFB wheel?

 

[Jay]

No, I have never tried FC at all, but I'm not talking about FC, but rather the apparent lack of GT5P feel. Maybe you have adapted to the feel of FC and you prefer it, when you go back to GT5P it feels different so it is hard, I dunno, but whatever I jump into many PC sims and back to GT5P and have no problems with feel. Frankly I don't know how much more 'feel' you could get from a wheel that has a motor that moves in two directions (along with sound and vision on screen).

 

[Lion-Face]

It's not an absolute, but a relative thing: there is feel in GT5P's FFB, but not to the same degree as in FC.

I'm just wondering Jay; have you tried FC with a FFB wheel?

Gran Turismo and Ferrari Challenge do FFB for different aspects of the car.

For FC, the feedback is on the tires grip of the road, as you lose grip/understeer, the FFB gets lighter and as the grip comes back, it gets heavier again, giving you an understanding of what the tires are doing in relation to the contact of the road.
The disadvantage to this, is that all the cars 'feel' the same, they all have very tight FFB until they start to lose grip where the wheel gets lighter, and then comes back again. This is fine for FC as its a game about Super cars/Racing Cars, so very high end, high performance vehicles.

Gran Turismo on the other hand, I believe, the FFB is based on suspension. This works for GT in the fact that it covers cars from your everyday Family run about car right up through Sports cars, super cars, fully fledged racing machines.
So at the lower end of the range, the Suspension is softer, going for ride comfort, the turning response is slower, more mushy feeling, running over rumble strips gives you a gentle rumble in the wheel and you can't feel so much what the suspension is doing and therefore how the tires are reacting to the bumps on the road.
While the higher end cars such as a Super car or Racing car, the suspension is tight, you have very responsive steering, you feel every bump in the road, you have a better understanding of how the car is reacting and can respond accordingly.

Personally I give a nod to GT in FFB, I have always liked the way GT has done FFB and by using the Suspension as a reference point for FFB, I feel that you get more feedback from setup changes because of this. While FC the setup changes (the few available) are harder to feel out and is more to the point of watching your speed through the corners to see if changes have made an effect.

Also another note, I like where FC was going with its FFB, although I couldn't stand how it controlled with the wheel, I put a few hours into the game trying to come to grips with the wheel (before and after each patch) but ultimately gave up. Its a personal choice thing, there are no FACTS about it. Some people like it, some don't. I ended up sticking with the controller for my FC career.

 

[Scaff]

It's not an absolute, but a relative thing: there is feel in GT5P's FFB, but not to the same degree as in FC.

I'm just wondering Jay; have you tried FC with a FFB wheel?

I have and I bloody hate it.


Scaff

 

[Jay]

Actually now you mention it lion-face I have done some comparisions quite a while ago when Paulie had some thoughts on cars that don't feel very responsive while others do (within GT5P). Going from various cars to cars I noticed steering response, ratio, strength and isolation was quite different from car to car, you could easily tell the difference from the RX7 and the 370GT but if you hop in the F2007 it feels stiff and much like how you say with the FC feedback (when the tyres get loose at low speeds, although the steering ratio is a little wrong).

Like I said I know nothing about FC's feedback so I wont comment on it.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I have and I bloody hate it.


Scaff

If I recall correctly, your wheel is a Logitech DF. I know from personal experience (I have one too, as you know) that FC doesn't work properly with 200º wheels, but the game gets transformed with a DFP, DFGT or G25.

Gran Turismo and Ferrari Challenge do FFB for different aspects of the car.

For FC, the feedback is on the tires grip of the road, as you lose grip/understeer, the FFB gets lighter and as the grip comes back, it gets heavier again, giving you an understanding of what the tires are doing in relation to the contact of the road.

Agree. This is what sets FC's FFB apart from any other game I know.

The disadvantage to this, is that all the cars 'feel' the same, they all have very tight FFB until they start to lose grip where the wheel gets lighter, and then comes back again. This is fine for FC as its a game about Super cars/Racing Cars, so very high end, high performance vehicles.

The basic principle of a "tight" FFB when the front tyres have grip and a "loose" wheel when they lose it is common to every car, from family wagons to Le Mans prototypes. Of course, the "brutality" of it is very different if you are using narrow road tyres or montruously large slicks.

Anyway, you don't any of that in GT5P, and this is one aspect where I really hope the full GT5 shows some improvement. In GT5P you enter understeer and you know about it only because: a) You see the car's front going wider than you want; b) you hear the tyres noise. But the FFB remains constant, or even increases if you turn the wheel a bit more (therefore agravating your tyres hopeless disconnection from grip).

 

[Scaff]

If I recall correctly, your wheel is a Logitech DF. I know from personal experience (I have one too, as you know) that FC doesn't work properly with 200º wheels, but the game gets transformed with a DFP, DFGT or G25.

It is indeed and its a pain the rear that it doesn't work with it, well actually its simply impossiable to drive with it.

GT5P on the other hand works perfectly with it.

Must upgrade at some point.


Scaff

 

[The Jenius]

Brave indeed :-) However as an MR2 (mk3) owner I would tend to agree.

It seems to me that GT5P has taken many steps forward in modelling more elements which effect the cars handling but hasn't managed to increase the feedback at the same time. This leaves me driving by memory and not feel. To get a fast lap I have to learn by rote where to brake, how hard, how long, when to turn when to accelerate etc.

With Ferrari Challenge I get more feedback so I don't rely so much on memory. The Ferrari Challenge physics engine is, in my opinion, more basic but can be more enjoyable because I get more feedback.

You make a good point, I find myself driving by memory and hoping to get the right timing to make the turn, where in other games I can brake a little later without the threat of sliding off the track. I don’t get the feeling of driving a real car where i can manipulate the line readily.

I drive with Professional physics of course, and I am not bashing the game I have just been more honest with myself after having some much better comparisons. I cannot attest to someone else "saying" that a mid engine car snap over steers without saying they have driven this car. I drive the 111r and in fact it suffers from a known under steer issue, go to elisetalk if you want documentation. This is further proved by the fact that Lotus has built in removable shims on the wheels to allow for up to 3/4 of an inch of increased camber, which means they intentionally built under steer and it’s at the users discretion to remove them for more over steer. Nothing against the poster himself just discrediting the source he noted in his post.

I see a distinct problem in the F430 as well as most of the other cars where they are just too hard too drive normally. What i mean by that is I can get in any car, drive it very spiritedly and not feel as though I am going to die. Somehow in GT5P every corner requires way too much attention even if I am not racing. A good comparison is Top Gear, if you've seen it, you know they are talking and being funny the whole time and are not trained racers. Yet they manage to drive the car fairly effectively, drifting and everything (although not racing) without too much trouble, but at a very decent pace. When I get in the same car in GT5P I can’t get near the amount of effectiveness and simply spin out, can't control a spin etc... if i try any of the same maneuvers.

This makes me think like one of the other posters, that they polish their product too much and focus on making a masterpiece of automobiles not necessarily the best racing game. Which brings me to the marketing BS because that’s exactly what they hang their hat on "simulation" and if they are going to feed us that line then it needs to be true.

Last para, I did some physics testing in GT5P last night and why when I am on a banked track stopped in neutral and not moving does the car slide, not roll but slide down the side? That shows either a lack of proper physics or a lack of attention to detail. The lack of detail is shown in other areas such as wrong weights and hp as well as not putting in hp for every car which is very frustrating in GT4 when I am trying to race another person and can't figure out which cars are close in performance. I will get the game no matter what but there are definite issues.

While on the steering wheel topic real quick, does anyone know if you can limit the amount of wheel turn on the G25, i tried to adjust the settings on the PC but I can't get it to stick in GT5P, I am trying to get it to only turn 180 degrees to no avail.

 

[Jack]

I drive with Professional physics of course, and I am not bashing the game I have just been more honest with myself after having some much better comparisons. I cannot attest to someone else "saying" that a mid engine car snap over steers without saying they have driven this car. I drive the 111r and in fact it suffers from a known under steer issue, go to elisetalk if you want documentation. This is further proved by the fact that Lotus has built in removable shims on the wheels to allow for up to 3/4 of an inch of increased camber, which means they intentionally built under steer and it’s at the users discretion to remove them for more over steer. Nothing against the poster himself just discrediting the source he noted in his post.

I agree with this statement. From reviews I have read and reading information through different magazines and websites, I have a basic idea of how the car may react. From not driving the car I dont know first hand, but with the information I have collected, the 111r tends to push its nose wide when attacking corners, then lift off oversteer mid corner, excatly how it is in the game. Not horrible as you said earlier.

I see a distinct problem in the F430 as well as most of the other cars where they are just too hard too drive normally. What i mean by that is I can get in any car, drive it very spiritedly and not feel as though I am going to die. Somehow in GT5P every corner requires way too much attention even if I am not racing. A good comparison is Top Gear, if you've seen it, you know they are talking and being funny the whole time and are not trained racers. Yet they manage to drive the car fairly effectively, drifting and everything (although not racing) without too much trouble, but at a very decent pace. When I get in the same car in GT5P I can’t get near the amount of effectiveness and simply spin out, can't control a spin etc... if i try any of the same maneuvers.

Remember Top Gear is an entertainment programme based for the lower / average car fan. It made to attract numbers not to give information (the later programmes anyway). The programme is edited together to give the best looking shots from a whole day of testing. They show 10 drifts from a 4 hour film. They have been practicing TV driving for 7+ years so catching drifts isnt a problem for them. They are rarley on the limit and pushing the car to an extreme due to the fact they are journalist not race drivers. These are 2 very different arts. If you practice drifting it takes time to slide (in game or in real life) and the same for racing

While on the steering wheel topic real quick, does anyone know if you can limit the amount of wheel turn on the G25, i tried to adjust the settings on the PC but I can't get it to stick in GT5P, I am trying to get it to only turn 180 degrees to no avail.

No. The G25 isnt made for GT5 so it has to stay at the maximum.

 

[Ranko_SD]

I don't like FFB in FC, when I'm oversteering it feels like some Godzilla came and started kicking my front wheels, I mean, those cranking in the wheel like dum dum dum dum dum is really not that enjoyable for me, it's more annoyable and it's the only reason why I finished the game on joypad...

 

[Biggles]

Well, The Jenius re-opened the can of worms. I just want to say that, discussions of physics aside, the reasons for a GT fan to pick up FC are not, in any case, based on FC having equal or better physics than GT5P.

I said:

. The fact is, it's possible to drive very fast in GT5P, but only by learning precisely where the braking points are by multiple repetition (which everyone has had LOTS of opportunity to do because there are so few tracks!) NOT by "feel"

It's not that GT5P has no feel to the FFB, it's just that FC has a lot more. I spent a lot of time driving in GT5P & was a reasonably fast driver. I learned how to push a car fast around Fuji, DR, Eiger & Suzuka (one of my favourites being the Elise in various forms & tunings). Yes, there is "feel" in GT5P, but being competitive involves multiple repetitions in order to learn the precise braking & throttle points - in the end there is almost a mathematical precision to the process. I remember spending 4 or 5 hours running hot laps in an online Eiger event & posting top 20 times, which gradually got whittled down until I ended up just outside the top 100. Then Rudi admitted that he had put in about 30 hours into his top 10 time. At that point I gave up!

As I had said multiple times in many threads I rarely use braking markers at all, I go by feel. I have no troubles what so ever with GT5P and feel. Some people have stated in this thread that they do, well thats unfortunate but it's hardly "fact" that you can't drive by feel in GT5P.

There's surely no "feel" to the braking points in any racing game, you need to either use brake markers or some other visual point of reference (which by the time you've run Suzuka several hundred times is kind of "intuitive'), because before you apply the brakes there's really no "feel" at all. There is, however, "feel" when it comes to the amount of braking, throttle & steering to guide the car around the corner. In any case, you'd have to try FC to understand the difference that I'm talking about.

I have and I bloody hate it.

Scaff, if you're not using a G25 or another 900 degree wheel, your experience is, I suppose, different from mine & others using a G25. It's also possible that, as some people have said, the FFB in GT5P with a DFGT is significantly stronger than with a G25. I have used both the G25, & more recently the Fanatec GT3 RS wheel, with both games. The Fanatec wheel smooths out the "deadzone" in FC (which is a whole other issue with FC) & increases the FFB strength in GT5P.

In the end, I would not make the claim that FC's physics are more accurate than GT5P's - I do suspect there's more detail in GT5P's physics - but FC just has a great "meaty" feel to the FFB that makes it fun to play & IMO more like (what I imagine to be) the real feel of racing a car. It also has some factors, like the necessity to match engine revs when changing gear, & balance the car under braking, that just don't seem to be modelled at all in GT5P.

Finally, FC fans like GTP_HUN & myself have also spent many, many hours racing GT5P offline & online, driving a variety of cars in a variety of events on a variety of tracks. In contrast, I have never seen a single FC naysayer appear anywhere in the top 20 or 30 on the FC leaderboards (which honestly isn't that hard in FC), which suggests to me that they haven't put in enough time to gain any real expertise in the game, & most likely haven't tried enough of the cars to really explore what FC has to offer. It's only when you start to push the cars to their limits (& preferably NOT the F430), that you start to understand how variations in your racing line produce different results, & how much depth there actually is to the driving physics in FC.

 

[Lion-Face]

It also has some factors, like the necessity to match engine revs when changing gear, & balance the car under braking, that just don't seem to be modelled at all in GT5P.

I don't agree with this point, it appears you have spent little time in GT5P with ABS=0 setting. Try it on the F40, Suzuka (preferably N3's), Full Clutch/H shift and then make that statement again, also, post your time

 

[Jay]

There's surely no "feel" to the braking points in any racing game, you need to either use brake markers or some other visual point of reference

I was mainly referencing the people that say they can't drive without markers and need to check speed all the time to judge how to take corners and brake. I don't any issues with GT5P with any senses, weather it be visual, sound or physical feedback, I also enjoy how it changes from car to car (the ffb), like the soft cars feel more isolated than the sportier cars. Other PC games have that very firm wheel feel that lets go during tyre slip, that fine but It doesn't make any difference to me I can feel when the wheels are slipping in GT5P just fine.

I remember someone raving on about iracing feedback like it was far superior to any other and miles ahead of GT5P, when I played iracing it was ok (after you fix the driver settings) but not the wonderful feedback I was expecting, frankly there is only so much feedback a wheel can give. Clearly you prefer the way FFB goes about it.

Well, The Jenius re-opened the can of worms.

I personally wouldn't have said a word if you didn't post GT5P has no 'feel' as fact, nothing to do with Jenius.

 

[The Jenius]

I agree with this statement. From reviews I have read and reading information through different magazines and websites, I have a basic idea of how the car may react. From not driving the car I dont know first hand, but with the information I have collected, the 111r tends to push its nose wide when attacking corners, then lift off oversteer mid corner, excatly how it is in the game. Not horrible as you said earlier.



Remember Top Gear is an entertainment programme based for the lower / average car fan. It made to attract numbers not to give information (the later programmes anyway). The programme is edited together to give the best looking shots from a whole day of testing. They show 10 drifts from a 4 hour film. They have been practicing TV driving for 7+ years so catching drifts isnt a problem for them. They are rarley on the limit and pushing the car to an extreme due to the fact they are journalist not race drivers. These are 2 very different arts. If you practice drifting it takes time to slide (in game or in real life) and the same for racing




No. The G25 isnt made for GT5 so it has to stay at the maximum.

Very true about Top Gear, and I guess what I am trying to say is that there is not the same amount of feel as i would come to expect in a real life scenarior nor in other games. I guess its not "horrible" to the exact point, but it is off enough so that when i get in a similar car RL and GT5P i feel like a child learning to walk. We all know that shouldn't be that case, I am pretty sure most could make it around a track with decent pace without incident and certainly without spinning off the track, I also realize that ABS and Traction dictate this to a degree.

I would like to be able to drive the car a little more as opposed to having to hit the exact points everytime or you"ll slide wide. Becaus as we see in real races there are any number of driving lines to go with the different styles but the GT series has always sort of dictated the correct line and speed etc... without much tolerance for any deviance from that perfect race line.

 

[Biggles]

I personally wouldn't have said a word if you didn't post GT5P has no 'feel' as fact,

I've retracted that. GT5P does have "feel", just not as much as I would like.

I was mainly referencing the people that say they can't drive without markers and need to check speed all the time to judge how to take corners and brake.

I'm pretty sure that most experienced sim racers judge their braking points the same way you do - it IS visual, but is based on knowing, almost sub-consciously (from brake markers, tire marks, distance from objects etc.), what the correct point is. When you switch to another car you need a few laps to adjust the braking points. This is the same with all sims, I believe. I think with FC the FFB gives you more information about your tires are doing while you are cornering, which allows you to make ongoing adjustments to steering & throttle through the corner, based on the feel of the FFB.

Given that FC is so cheap now, I would invite you, or anyone else, to buy it & see what you think (that was the whole reason for this thread in the first place). If you reach the point where you can get a top 20 - 30 time in a car like the 355 Challenge at Spa, for instance, & you still say you don't like the feel of FC, then I will totally respect & accept that difference of opinion...

As far as The Jenius is concerned: I don't any sim is really that close to the experience of driving IRL. I've never come across anyone who could jump into any sim for the first time & feel immediately comfortable with it. Also, I think experienced sim racers are pushing the car MUCH harder than they ever would IRL, so it is natural that there would be some "twitchiness" to the handling.

 

[The Jenius]

I've retracted that. GT5P does have "feel", just not as much as I would like.



I'm pretty sure that most experienced sim racers judge their braking points the same way you do - it IS visual, but is based on knowing, almost sub-consciously (from brake markers, tire marks, distance from objects etc.), what the correct point is. When you switch to another car you need a few laps to adjust the braking points. This is the same with all sims, I believe. I think with FC the FFB gives you more information about your tires are doing while you are cornering, which allows you to make ongoing adjustments to steering & throttle through the corner, based on the feel of the FFB.

Given that FC is so cheap now, I would invite you, or anyone else, to buy it & see what you think (that was the whole reason for this thread in the first place). If you reach the point where you can get a top 20 - 30 time in a car like the 355 Challenge at Spa, for instance, & you still say you don't like the feel of FC, then I will totally respect & accept that difference of opinion...

As far as The Jenius is concerned: I don't any sim is really that close to the experience of driving IRL. I've never come across anyone who could jump into any sim for the first time & feel immediately comfortable with it. Also, I think experienced sim racers are pushing the car MUCH harder than they ever would IRL, so it is natural that there would be some "twitchiness" to the handling.

Thats true, we might be pushing the car harder than if we were really driving it, but again, that should be reflected better in the visuals, instead I feel as though I am putting along when I am going 120. This brings up another point that ties into the markers. I have no problem driving by markers as thats how any true racer consistently knows when to break. To that point there is no "feel" involved IRL, its simply, you must break by this point to be most effective. What I don't like is, there are countless times where someone out brakes someone else or goes around the outside IRL but in GT it seems as though any deviation from the determined "perfect" braking and turning point often results in disaster not just running slightly wide as is commonly the case. I would like to be able to manipulate the line a little more even as I am in the corner.

The problem that I see is like i said before, it is too difficult to do basic maneuvers in this game and getting setup for a corner is a crap shoot most times when you get to the edges. I see F1 drivers literally ride the far outside line in prep for a corner, and I can do the same, even adjust my car, with one hand, to within 2 inches of the grass for a corner. More times than not you end up in the gravel in GT and I am increasingly frustrated as to why. I believe they need to really get the physics down pat, more so than they are now, they are way too loose and don't feel like any weight is applied to the car. Perfect example take a car, stop it on a banked track, Daytona or High Speed, stop the car perfectly even so it doesn't roll and release brakes. The car will literally slide down the track as if on Butter Bridgestones.

To me this shows a fundamental flaw in the physics applied to the vehicles, and undermines the whole game because this will still be happening during racing which is the cause for the tail-happiness and other losses of control. It also shows, as I said before, a lack of attention to detail which is further reflected in weights, hp, and other in game anomalies that we constantly dismiss and work-around. We need to demand more from developers, an if i am going to spend X dollars because the game is "supposed" to be a simulation and also touts the steering wheel as the true way to experience it, then it needs to be d*mn close to real life when I get these products and in turn, am saying I trust your product.

 

[Biggles]

I have no problem driving by markers as thats how any true racer consistently knows when to break. To that point there is no "feel" involved IRL, its simply, you must break by this point to be most effective. What I don't like is, there are countless times where someone out brakes someone else or goes around the outside IRL but in GT it seems as though any deviation from the determined "perfect" braking and turning point often results in disaster not just running slightly wide as is commonly the case. I would like to be able to manipulate the line a little more even as I am in the corner.

I would agree with you. IMO this is because there is not enough feel to the FFB to allow you to make adjustments on the fly, unless you already know exactly what you need to be doing. When you are online, in order to be any where near competitive against decent opposition, you need to know the braking/throttle points precisely, through multiple repetition. Given that there are so few tracks in GT5P, there are many online racers who have run Suzuka & Fuji thousands of times. As I said:

I remember spending 4 or 5 hours running hot laps in an online Eiger event & posting top 20 times, which gradually got whittled down until I ended up just outside the top 100. Then Rudi admitted that he had put in about 30 hours into his top 10 time. At that point I gave up!

That's the kind of thing you're up against in GT5P (& even if you put in 30 hours, it's not that likely you're going to be able to match Rudi's time!) - someone running over a thousand practice laps, in one car, on one track. You're not going to be able to jump online & be competitive after 10 or 15 laps.

Also, bear in mind that most cars on GT5P aren't competitive no matter how well you drive them. Most online events are dominated by one or two cars. This situation would be improved with private lobbies where you could set up one-car events - all F40 races, for instance - which would add a lot more variety to the racing IMO.

 

[Jay]

If you reach the point where you can get a top 20 - 30 time in a car like the 355 Challenge at Spa, for instance, & you still say you don't like the feel of FC, then I will totally respect & accept that difference of opinion...

See thats the thing, I don't think I would dislike the FFB, I have yet to race in a sim that I have outright not liked the FFB. I may not like the sim for other reasons but the FFB usually isn't a problem.

 

[Biggles]

Try it on the F40, Suzuka (preferably N3's), Full Clutch/H shift and then make that statement again, also, post your time

First lap I ran a 2'22.xxx (arcade, ie. stock with S-2 tires) - very pleasant, kept the car on the track & drove "conservatively". Love the car, love the cockpit view, love the replay. Then I start to push harder & whittle away at that time. It starts to become a little less fun, because there's not enough feel to the FFB to really get a sense for what the car is doing. Repetition, repetition, repetition, to learn out the best brake/throttle points. Now that I'm pushing harder, I drive off the track repeatedly (especially at T1 & Degner) trying to get it right.

I find I rarely drive off the track while hot lapping in FC, because the technique there is to brake early, balance the car & then accelerate through the corner - you can generally tell when you're going into a corner too fast in FC & adjust your speed or line accordingly. In GT5P the technique is to go as fast as you dare into the corner & hang on for dear life. I honestly believe, that physics aside, RL racing is more like FC than GT5P.

Having said all that, FC also has the F40, & I have no doubt at all that GT5P's F40 is far more accurate to RL, not just in the graphics, but in the performance, tuning, handling, and sound. The F40 in FC is different from GT5P's F40 in almost every way & seems "notional" rather than realistic. So the only plus for FC's F40 is the feel of the FFB.

At the end of about an hour & a half I record a top 100 time: 2'17.431. Actually I have the 100th position as I write this - so I may not be up there for long...