1886 Motor Carriage around the 'ring! (in about 2 days)

[thegreatms]

I am curious. What was it about your last leg that left so much room for improvement. Did you pendulum the second to last curve or what. Good luck on your rerun.

looking back on my notes, i had a hard time with the last section. I guess I tried tacking back and forth, and that was a waste of time. then i tried penduluming but picked the wrong side to backup to. At that time i guessed i had lost at least 2 minutes, it appears I lost even more than that.

Fair warning: I am running it again and I am about 30 minutes in. If i keep up my current pace I will be posting a very good time. I'll be done in a few days.

 

[Mezar5]

Yeah. After I asked I went back and looked at your post and noticed that. I think maybe you are driving the right hand side (the low side) and the second to the last turn (right before the entrance to the pit area). I found that taking the high side (outer part of turn) makes it easier and you can drive right through the turn without stopping. I know I slingshotted it once or twice in the area, but like I said, definetly no back and forth.

I was thinking, when you first start the race, even though the time hasn't starting ticking yet, the car begins before that turn (the one that is right at the entrance to the put area). Did you drive staight through it before the race began. If so, you should be able to at the end of the race.

I was looking at where I lost time and I think I am not getting enough distance up the hills after coasting. I was two seconds behind you after the first split and that's all freewheeling to that point. THat had to cost me distance up the hill. I was well below the P in Power when I stopped coasting and I think you had said you reached that P.

I will be done the Extreme events soon, so maybe I will give this another go afterall. The extreme events are pretty easy. And I am using the same cars as the AI drivers with no tuning.

Good luck on your run. I mean, re-run. Make that re-re-run.

 

[James2097]

I was thinking, when you first start the race, even though the time hasn't starting ticking yet, the car begins before that turn (the one that is right at the entrance to the put area). Did you drive staight through it before the race began. If so, you should be able to at the end of the race.

If you pick the line, you don't have to stop. Surely I said (or inferred) this somewhere really early on in the thread? The first time I started the race, I actually fluked picking the line right, and didn't stop, so I assumed you would never need to slingshot here. Obviously you have to if you take a really bad line

Keep those times coming down! Its getting really specific on how to get faster hey? 👍

 

[Toddzilla]

Does anyone have pictures and/or video of the Carriage slogging around the 'ring? This is simply one of the coolest threads I've read here and I'd love to see that hot-rod tearing up the asphalt

 

[thegreatms]

I was thinking, when you first start the race, even though the time hasn't starting ticking yet, the car begins before that turn (the one that is right at the entrance to the put area). Did you drive staight through it before the race began. If so, you should be able to at the end of the race.

When I start the race I usually stay on the far left side hugging the curb, and then have to roll back and to the inside of the track once in order to make it to the start line. I think one time I made it all the way up without stopping (I got down to like 1 mph before speeding up). Are you saying you can consistently get to the start line without stopping?

I think have to work on my technique in that area.

I was looking at where I lost time and I think I am not getting enough distance up the hills after coasting. I was two seconds behind you after the first split and that's all freewheeling to that point. THat had to cost me distance up the hill. I was well below the P in Power when I stopped coasting and I think you had said you reached that P.

I think you are losing time there too. I don't get to the P on the coast, but I do get just before it. On a good run my left tire will get to the P at about 5.30; so it takes about 3 minutes to get from the end of coasting to that part of the hill, it takes maybe 10 pendulums back and forth. I ran this area many times (~15) when test out tires and different assists, and therefore I got really good at it. I also restart if i have a bad first hill. Check your speed at T1, speed is way more important than the 2 seconds you might have lost; I always want mine to be at 34mph right when I hit T1. Speed is what determines how far you make it up the hill. Also make sure you hit full gas right when you get below 12 mph.

Good luck and give me any more info you can on the last few curves.

 

[James2097]

You should never have to stop when you just start the race, going up that little hill to the start line. Do a few starts of the race, and you'll get the line right every time. Once you know what works, its easy.

On the video idea... how insanely big would a 4 hr video file be? You still couldn't get it all within the replay buffer, so it'd have to be a vid of actual gameplay. Doesn't really sound worth doing to me... it wouldn't exactly be the most action packed video in the world

 

[Mezar5]

Yeah, but he has already started the race so I guess he can't go and run the start a few times to find the right line. I will play around with it tonight and post something up here. I hope its in time for it to be helpful.

I watched my replay for a bit. Its actually a good way to see what you are doing right and wrong. It's easier to see the contour of the road from the replay. If your in the right mood it can be very relaxing.

 

[Mezar5]

thegreatms, I tried it a few times on each side and it always worked the same. As you approach the end of the long straight, after the long bend left then back to right, there is a telephone line overhead and two signs (red and white with a 60 in the middle) on either side of the road right when the service road enters the track from the left. At that point, stay to the left and you can drive straight all the way to the finish line.

I tried it three times. And every time I made it to the end without stopping by driving on the left and I came to a stop just in front of the entrance to the pit area when I drove on the right.


IMO, it has to do with the contour of the track coming out of the sharp right turn and into the left turn. It goes from a slope down for the right turn to a slope up for the immediate left turn. Too much of a change in grade on the right side of the track.

Hope this helps.

 

[James2097]

👍 Stay on the left.

 

[thegreatms]

well here are my new times, as I hinted before i blew away my old record:

Total time: 235'06.237

under 4 hours!!

T1 2'17.6 @34
T2 21'59.184 @ 48mph
T3 23'50.679 @ 19mph
T4 26'19.643 @ 37mph (
t5 40'31.1 @4 mph
t6 104'19.565 @ 2mph
T7 200'07.338 @13mph
T8 205'14.983 @11mph free wheel just at T8
T9 207'11.120 @21mph
T10 220'35.537 @21mph
T11 226'10.414 @11mph
235'06.237 DONE!

If you want to see my more detailed splits like before just ask. I did better on the last section, but still stopped, I could pick up another minute there. I bet the ultimate time is down around 220 minutes. good luck guys!

 

[James2097]

WHOOHOOO how many times have I said you kick bottom thegreatms?

 

[thegreatms]

by using best splits method i get a min time of: 228'52.31
7 minutes better than my time. sub-220 times are possible

Thanks James
Too bad I'm only at 12% in the game and haven't got all gold yet. Lets just say I have a lot of time on my hands. Also I often don't feel like pulling out the DFP so i play the carraige with the controller.

 

[Mezar5]

Impressive. I'll need to get my mind right before I try and beat that. No rush though. When I'm ready, I'm sure I'll give it a shot.

Good job though. I'm still happy I had my time as the champ.

 

[Mezar5]

I always use the controller. Do you guys think the driving wheel would be better at this? I hated the driving wheel.

 

[thegreatms]

Mezar, Darkhourse, and James;

I just got really confused when looking at the times listed for fastest laps. They are are listed as the Mercedes-benz patent wagon...not the motor carriage (even my listings). Did we all simply mess up and pick the first 1886' on the list? I think the patent wagon is the three wheel one, the carriage is the 4 wheel one.

I have been using the 4 wheel one the whole time; which have you been using? Also both pre-1900 cars are listed as 1886 not 1889 as the title of the thread says. The 3 wheel one has much lower weight, I'm not sure about power or gearing. I just want to make sure we are all on the same page. Do you know anyway to fix the best lap listings?

 

[James2097]

We all mean the 4 wheel one, the "Daimler-Benz MOTOR CARRIAGE". If its listed as the wrong thing, then can it be changed?

 

[Mezar5]

I edited mine. Just click on the time and it will bring you to a page where you can edit the entire posting.

 

[thegreatms]

I edited mine. Just click on the time and it will bring you to a page where you can edit the entire posting.

I just changed all mine.

 

[Mezar5]

I was working my way through the game and I won the Mercedes-Benz Benz Patent Motor-Wagon '86 (I didn't type that wrong, it says Benz twice in the garage )after the European Classic (pre -'70 vehicles only). So I figured I would just see what it was like on the ring. What could it hirt. Next thing I knew it was 1 am and I was at 95 mintues after T6. A respectable time but I knew I made some mistakes trying different things to get a feel for the vehicle on this course. I got too experimental between T6 and T7 a lost some ground on the steep part of the long hill after Karussel so I terminated at 180 minutes and started over.

I am now at 14 minutes and change after T2. About 7 minutes faster than my previous time where I was at 95 minutes at T6. T1 was 2:18 and I ended my coast way into the graffiti. This car is way easier to negotiate the ring than the Motor Carriage. I wonder if sub 3 hours is achievable.

I just don't think I can beat the current record with the Motor Carriage but maybe this will motivate me to go after it. For now, I am enoying this.

BTW, there is no second gear with the Motor Wagon and my top speed was 68 MPH.

 

[James2097]

Do you reckon the 3 wheeled Wagon has way less wieght/friction etc and thats why it seems to go faster? Looks like this car could get a good 'ring time to me!

The one gear situation wouldn't really affect the drivability and times, considering you can just freewheel when going downhill! I suppose going uphill, 1 gear is fine, you need it as low as possible for the steep bits!

I forget, does this car have the same power (possibly the very same design internal combustion engine?) as the Carriage? It would be a rocket for sure if its got the same engine!

Good stuff for continuing to experiment with both the Wagon and the Carriage! I'd very much like to see someone do a (reasonably efficient) lap of the nurb' with the "Wagon", so we can really see the performance difference... if its too boring (the Carriage/Wagon spark may have died by now - sob ), I really don't blame ya!

 

[thegreatms]

I bet the weight is the main thing, I think it is a lot lighter. This will help on the long hills a lot; you may be able to drive right up them. It really depends on the gears. What you need is a really low gear. The carriage has crappy gears, 1st is too long and then 2nd is right behind it. Either first should redline at 5 mph, or 2nd should go until 20 mph. That would help you tie immensely.


Don't you worry, when I get around to winning the wagon I'll try it on nurb as well. Are you running in arcade or GT? As you can tell from the times posted above it makes a big difference.

Maybe when you finish the lap you should start a new thread, title it something like "1886 Motor Wagon around the 'ring! (in about X hours)” then we can have a thread about each car.

 

[RenesisEvo]

Well I can assure you, it doesnt do any driving up hills!! I've tried to take it round in GT Mode... having made some good progress up the first hill (gently rolling the thing backward n forward to zig-zag up the hill) my brother decided to intefer whilst I was away... so i gave up since he sent it rolling back from where i'd spent half an hour coming form. It free-wheels quicker than my 2CV can go flat out!! Hoping I'll have some time to have another go this week.

 

[Mezar5]

I finished (Arcade Mode) and unfortunately, there are more questiosn than answers.

Here are my splits. For some reason I didn't get splits for T6,7 and 8. Maybe I missed them, but I doubt it. Unfortunately, this is where I lost all of my time, and we don't have the individual splits to really tell where, but I am sure it was bewteen 6 and 7 again.

T1 2:18.986
T2 14:38.253
T3 16:34.987
T4 22:11.072
T5 30:50.465 (I coasted great and only had to pendulum a few times to get over that steep hill. I was very phsyched about my time at this point)
T6 ?
T7 ?
T8 ?
T9 217:45.046 ( not quite as phsyched at this point)
T10 232:08.149
T11 240:33.629 (even slower than the carriage going down the straight)
T12 247:59.485

I don't know why, but I just could not get up the final steep hill after Karusel. Perhaps this car coasts better than the carriage but doesn't pendulum as well, Since I coasted so well up the first steep hill (between T1 and T2) and the second steep hill (at the end of the down hill turns between T4 and T5), my ability to pendulum with this car hadn't really been tested 'til this point. It was arduous. If I stayed in one point for too long (and I mean only a second) it started sliding back down the hill sideways.

I was thinking maybe the tires wore out. But I doubt it since there was no tire indicators.

Of course, who's to say whether its me or the car. My technique is obvioulsy inferior to at least thegreatms'. It took me 189 minutes to get from T5 to T9 in the Carriage and 187 minutes in the wagon (two nights in a row even). But it seemed harder in the Wagon.

Yet I went from T1 to T5 in half the time. Go figure.

Thegreatms, and anyone else of course, I really hope you try this as i would like to see if you experience the same problem.

As for the gears. Having only one gear is definitely slower and I didn't see where it helped any on the hills. If I would go full throttle, the car would red line and slow down to 4 to 5 mph for a bit and then get back up to 11mph. If I controled the throttle to just below red line, the car would run a constant 8 mph (on the final straight at least). I didn't figure this out 'til the final straight, so there is probably some room for improvement in my time right there.

Good luck.

 

[James2097]

Sounds like a real conundrum there... maybe 3 wheels just aren't the best at gripping trying to climb? I would check this out - it sounds really strange, but my brother has the PS2 at the moment... damn!
Thanks for the insight Mezar... 👍
It WOULD really help if someone else also did a lap in the wagon to corroborate (or have an entirely different experience...) than what you experienced... 💡

 

[Mezar5]

I would check this out - it sounds really strange, but my brother has the PS2 at the moment... damn!

I guess being a parent has some advantages. My son was interferring with my GT time, so I just bought another console. I try teaching sharing in other ways.

I realize that in the three times I crossed the finish line plus the restarts where I messed up, I still haven't logged as many Carriage/Wagon hours as you, but it would be nice to have the founder of this challenge back in the mix.

That one hill is really my nemisis. I have a hard time knowing just where to switch from backing to the outside of the track to backing to the inside of the track and once I do, what angle to use. Some input would be appreciated.

 

[James2097]

I realize that in the three times I crossed the finish line plus the restarts where I messed up, I still haven't logged as many Carriage/Wagon hours as you, but it would be nice to have the founder of this challenge back in the mix.

That one hill is really my nemisis. I have a hard time knowing just where to switch from backing to the outside of the track to backing to the inside of the track and once I do, what angle to use. Some input would be appreciated.

Ok I promise as soon as I get the PS2 back (soon I hope), I'll DO THE WAGON!
Then I'll actually have some meaningful input I can give...

btw my initial time of 48 hrs included a LOT of piss-farting around and sleeping etc, its just how long it happened to take in real life, not game time, actual time playing properly would've been a lot less... man I would have to be CRAPPY at hill climbing to actually play for 48 and not be round the lap yet... Mind there's been a lot of technique refining since then...

 

[thegreatms]

btw my initial time of 48 hrs included a LOT of piss-farting around and sleeping etc, its just how long it happened to take in real life, not game time,

I had guessed that was the case. Some of my best runs i spread out over 3-4 days. just work 45-60 minutes a night, then you don't get bored and mess up. That is also why i like keeping detailed split times. It helps split the lap up into 13 mini races.

 

[thegreatms]

I just found out some interesting info about both cars. In the garage you can see power, weight and weight/power ratio. Hp is listed as 1 for both cars; but I had a hunch it was just rounding it off. It was...using the weight and weight/power values you can find the REAL power.

The motor carriage has W/P=266.055 and weight 290 give P of 1.09hp


The motor wagon has W/P=353.333and weight 265 give P of .75hp 👎

See, they both round to 1.
The wagon has much less power, and only 25kg less weight. The only good thing might be the lower friction/ rolling resistance.

I wonder if it can make it around the nurb in GT

 

[RenesisEvo]

I wonder if it can make it around the nurb in GT

I have nothing planned for today - so I shall attempt my first full lap in the 3-wheeled wagon... in GT mode. I'm not going for record time, I just want to complete the lap.

See ya tonight

EDIT: I should point out I already got the thing almost to the top of the first hill... but until I get past the Karussell I really don't know what's gonna happen!

 

[RenesisEvo]

1hr in - and I havent even tripped the timing beam on the start/finish straight. After various attempts with different traction control settings, I settled for maximum TCS (ASM 0/0). The problem with GT Mode's Free Run is that is starts you off on a steep slope... and the camber means you cannot swing the Wagon very well at all. Photo Drive starts you on the pit-straight, which is handy, but it won't give me an entry in my diary that proves I did a GT Mode lap.

Hoping by midday I'll be free-wheeling that thing down the the first hill of the timed lapped. I've just got the walkway near the last corner in view now...

Edit 1: At 12:11, I fire up the engine in a straight line, and it drives itself around the last corner, onto the hallowed start/finish straight. Speed drops steady from 8 to 5mph, but finally about to trip the beam and begin the challenge in itself. A monster sense of acheivement just getting it to the start!!