2014 Belgian Grand Prix
- Thread starter Azure Flare
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- GTP_ZippyCat
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- I_Grayson_Fox_I
It is saved under Maldonado.txt.
- 7
- Chicago
Some of the finest Maldonado driving I've ever seen, Managed to only wreck himself and no one else.
Oh, That explains it.
In all seriousness, Great drive by the Ferraris. Happy to see Raikkonen finnish 4th. Decent results for Alonso considering the 5 second stop and go and the last lap incident with Vettel.
Edit: To add Content
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- 2,428
- England
- Lewis_Hamilton_
I am fuming, incase you couldn't tell!
If it were Alonso or Vettel in Lewis's shoes, or one of the great champions from the past, how do you think they would have reacted instead?
Like "It's cool bro, seriously I don't mind, I'm sure there's nothing you could have done, maybe I'll win the WDC next year instead"?
- 2,993
- Brisbane
- jimipitbull
Hello everyone, even though I`ve just registered I`ve been reading the comments in this section for quite a while now. Anyways this morning I read this article on the official F1 site: " While the former insisted in a heated post-race team meeting that he had not deliberately crashed into his team mate, Mercedes made it very clear that they held the German accountable for what was seen as an avoidable incident and one which cost the Silver Arrows a near certain one-two. Rosberg may have wanted to show that he won’t be pushed around after Hamilton’s refusal to follow team orders in Hungary, but if so it was a clumsy way to make a point."
I have a question regarding this incident, does anyone know why Rosberg is so pissed about Hungary? he seemed to be too far away from Lewis to overtake or am I missing something?
I have a question regarding this incident, does anyone know why Rosberg is so pissed about Hungary? he seemed to be too far away from Lewis to overtake or am I missing something?
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I think you're deliberately misrepresenting the situation for the sake of defending Hamilton, and I think Hamilton is deliberately misquoting Rosberg. Rosberg never said that he deliberately hit Hamilton - he said that he did what he did "to prove a point".
Naturally, the question we should be asking ourselves is "what point?", but by not asking it, we're inadvertently proving Rosberg right.
I think Rosberg is still aggrieved from Hungary. When he asked for orders to give him track position, he was within half a second of Hamilton and on fresher tyres. Passing him was feasible, but he didn't want to ruin his tyres or risk unnecessary damage to his car or Hamilton's. Hamilton refused to obey, and was celebrated by the fans. Then they make contact in Belgium, and the fans again side with Hamilton; this time, in Rosberg's opinion, rightfully so.
I think that Rosberg's point is that Mercedes is under pressure from the public to side with Hamilton, even though Rosberg has a stronger title bid. And I think he is right - why should Mercedes direct resources away from his championship campaign to satisfy public demand for supporting Hamilton, given Hamilton's mistakes this season? After all, Daniel Ricciardo is lurking in the background ...
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
One of the effects of team orders (as Rosberg thought they would be applied in Hungary) is to stop your teammate from holding you up in a race position when your strategy effectively puts you ahead. Hamilton didn't feel that in Hungary the call to let Nico past was correct. Mercedes are on the fence; they say the principal was right but the wording was wrong (Toto Wolf in an interview on either Sky or Beeb yesterday). The drivers have, it seems, agreed to disagree.
Rosberg also felt he was run wide by Hamilton in Hungary. He was, it was a firm move but make no mistake that they're both good enough to run like that.
Yesterday Rosberg decided he wasn't going to be cowed and, one surmises, that if Hamilton was going to run him out of track then they could both end up going. Remember that they're in a safe"ish" position in the championship. What would the outcomes have been?
Hamilton and Rosberg retire:
Rosberg is in trouble with a team who he feels didn't support him at the last race. He comes out of the race leading the WDC against the driver most likely to beat him.
Hamilton now knows that there is no quarter given, as he himself demonstrated in Hungary.
Rosberg retires, Hamilton continues:
Rosberg is in trouble with a team who he feels didn't support him at the last race. There's a possibility he'll come out of the race behind Hamilton in the driver's championship, although if Hamilton spins and has to pit that risk is reduced.
Hamilton now knows that there is no quarter given, as he himself demonstrated in Hungary.
Hamiton retires, Rosberg continues:
Rosberg is in trouble with a team who he feels didn't support him at the last race. Even if Rosberg doesn't complete the race he leaves Spa leading the WDC against the driver most likely to beat him.
Hamilton now knows that there is no quarter given, as he himself demonstrated in Hungary.
Neither retire:
I can't see it; I really can't. I think that sometime, somewhere in the race, we'd have had tears
The more I reflect on it the more I'm sure Hamilton is playing it very well. He's utterly passive off-track, there is no fight from him, no posturing, none of the attitude that people (here and elsewhere) have so often called out as arrogance. That may be confusing Rosberg a little... because in-car Hamilton is still showing the resilience that he did against Alonso as a rookie. I'm not always a fan of that either but one can't argue that it doesn't get results. That's all he's there for.
Rosberg is still in with the best chance of the WDC at this point, clearly so, and it would be a deserved win overall. I think he's lost some trust with part of the team (we only see two or three team figures regularly, we have no way of knowing if the same is true at every level, I doubt it is) but he's being advised by one of the wiliest, craftiest, fastest world champions the world has ever seen. His dad.
As I often (and no doubt boringly) say; I love the sport more than any personality that's in it, this year has been surprisingly fascinating as it's unfolded.
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- 9,741
- Las Vegas UTC-8
- Wardez
- Wardez
I love F1 when it's like this. What a nutty situation.
From the Crash article that was updated:
Nico's still mad about Hungary, passive aggressive nature.
Toto Wolff:
Lewis's interpretation of the meeting confirmed as being the truth by Mercedes:
https://twitter.com/willbuxton/status/503581249496432640
Reporter: "Toto, how are you going to handle this situation?"
Toto: "It's going to be handled."
Niki sides with Lewis.
Toto's attitude definitely implies he also sees this as being Nico's fault. But he's playing impartial (as he should), for now, because he's the boss man.
Nico wanted to prove a point by standing his ground for once and it ended up biting him in the ass. He deserves to be punished for it, bottom line. Personally, I think a one-race ban is too harsh, but wtf else is there to do?
Really strange situation Mercedes has managed to get themselves into. They should've kept Ross Brawn and they should've outlined their standing before the season started in terms of how they were going to handle these sorts of situations. "Letting our drivers race" isn't the problem, the problem is that they have one strategist for both drivers and they also aren't communicating effectively enough.
They need to be clear in which driver takes priority depending on circumstances at each stage of the race so the other guy knows he's fighting a tougher battle. Give your drivers all the information and be stern!
Why did Nico use that setting in Bahrain? Why was it allowed? What other rules are bendable? Let's go back to the drawing board boys because the current paradigm is OBVIOUSLY not going to work.
Now for my take on the incident:
I'm of the camp that the driver behind has to make sure the pass is safe once the driver ahead is fully committed to the corner (has corner rights once he's turned into the corner). So it was Nico's fault.
The only way it could be disputed in my mind is if Nico had his front axle at least up to Hamilton's sitting position (sufficient overlap) right before turn in. Check this screengrab from the incident out, this is the smoking gun in my opinion: http://i.imgur.com/9Vvp529.jpg. He's turning in and his front axle isn't even up to Lewis's rear axle.
Nico didn't have the proper positioning to challenge fairly, and so that makes it Lewis's corner. That also means Lewis then didn't need to give room at all, so it all came down to Nico.
You could tell by watching the replay that the ball was totally in Nico's court at that stage after they began turning in to the right. He saws at the wheel really quickly trying his best to stay just precisely out of trouble instead of completely letting off and potentially losing a lot of ground to Lewis. He seemed to have wanted to just keep a couple inches off of Lewis's car but just misjudged it by a tiny bit.
Not intentional but definitely deserving of a penalty because he didn't set the pass up properly in the first place.
From the Crash article that was updated:
Nico's still mad about Hungary, passive aggressive nature.
Toto Wolff:
Lewis's interpretation of the meeting confirmed as being the truth by Mercedes:
https://twitter.com/willbuxton/status/503581249496432640
Reporter: "Toto, how are you going to handle this situation?"
Toto: "It's going to be handled."
Niki sides with Lewis.
Toto's attitude definitely implies he also sees this as being Nico's fault. But he's playing impartial (as he should), for now, because he's the boss man.
Nico wanted to prove a point by standing his ground for once and it ended up biting him in the ass. He deserves to be punished for it, bottom line. Personally, I think a one-race ban is too harsh, but wtf else is there to do?
Really strange situation Mercedes has managed to get themselves into. They should've kept Ross Brawn and they should've outlined their standing before the season started in terms of how they were going to handle these sorts of situations. "Letting our drivers race" isn't the problem, the problem is that they have one strategist for both drivers and they also aren't communicating effectively enough.
They need to be clear in which driver takes priority depending on circumstances at each stage of the race so the other guy knows he's fighting a tougher battle. Give your drivers all the information and be stern!
Why did Nico use that setting in Bahrain? Why was it allowed? What other rules are bendable? Let's go back to the drawing board boys because the current paradigm is OBVIOUSLY not going to work.
Now for my take on the incident:
I'm of the camp that the driver behind has to make sure the pass is safe once the driver ahead is fully committed to the corner (has corner rights once he's turned into the corner). So it was Nico's fault.
The only way it could be disputed in my mind is if Nico had his front axle at least up to Hamilton's sitting position (sufficient overlap) right before turn in. Check this screengrab from the incident out, this is the smoking gun in my opinion: http://i.imgur.com/9Vvp529.jpg. He's turning in and his front axle isn't even up to Lewis's rear axle.
Nico didn't have the proper positioning to challenge fairly, and so that makes it Lewis's corner. That also means Lewis then didn't need to give room at all, so it all came down to Nico.
You could tell by watching the replay that the ball was totally in Nico's court at that stage after they began turning in to the right. He saws at the wheel really quickly trying his best to stay just precisely out of trouble instead of completely letting off and potentially losing a lot of ground to Lewis. He seemed to have wanted to just keep a couple inches off of Lewis's car but just misjudged it by a tiny bit.
Not intentional but definitely deserving of a penalty because he didn't set the pass up properly in the first place.
- 2,998
- England
- Peasantslayer
I think Rosberg wanted to prove a point so he tried a big move on Hamilton and when he realised he was going to lose out he snapped.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Which would be completely out of character with everything he has done over the course of his career. When was the last time he snapped after failing to make a move stick on the second lap of the race that he threw a Maldonado-style tantrum?
- 86,488
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
I think he's still mad about Bahrain.
Hamilton defended his position on older, harder tyres from Rosberg (who was using a more powerful engine map for the chase) for an unfeasibly long time and Rosberg really didn't like it, off the back of an uncontested Australian Grand Prix and a schooling at Malaysia - I guess he figured that as he was already 18 points ahead he should have had team orders on his side. He was certainly hopping mad during the race, claiming Hamilton was running him off the track - despite there being enough space for an entire extra car alongside him in most corners.
Then came a long string of beatings until Rosberg got close again at Spain - and again couldn't get the job done. Those ten laps where, despite having the wick turned up, Rosberg couldn't make a pass stick - particularly in right-left chicanes - must have festered a bit as that's where the tide turned.
And then Monaco. Deliberate or not, the reaction must have hurt as he won the race from what fans saw as an unjustly gained pole position. A couple of good races were then undone by the gearbox failure at Silverstone and then came Hungary...
With all that going on, to have your teammate told to move out of your way only for him to say something along the lines of you not being quick enough or close enough for him to let you must have pissed him off. In Rosberg's mind, Hamilton cost him a win like he did in Bahrain (and Spain to a lesser extent) - and a potential 1-2 for the team. Not pulling out of the already lost overtake in a right-left chicane and costing Hamilton the win - and a potential 1-2 for the team - might have been Rosberg's point he was trying to prove.
- 2,998
- England
- Peasantslayer
I don't think he has but he seems different this year now that he has a chance of winning the title, the incidents at Monaco and Canada seemed a little too convenient for me and whenever Hamilton beats him he has a look of anger in him which he didn't have in 2013.
- 7,177
- Lisboa
- FLAT_TWELVE
@TenEightyOne that's a great post, thanks! 👍
The way I see it Nico Rosberg was very nearly shoved off the track in Hungary and he didn't forget. He probably thought Hamilton was getting confident enough that in direct battle he would always be able to be the "harder" driver. This reminds me that season when Hamilton and Massa collided often. Boys playing in a dangerous courtyard, and none wants the other to think bullying him is possible.
Also, this brought me Turkey 2010 to memory. Vettel going to the better line, Webber not moving over, in a "to hell with consequences" attitude.
In the end, I really think Rosberg acted out of anger, with his heart not his brain, because if he had used the brain the odds were clearly against him. When front wings meet rear tyres, you have a 100% chance of front wing serious failure and about 20% chance of rear tyre deflation. Rosberg was VERY lucky with the outcome.
Whatever the case, will be interesting if these two meet again on track.
The way I see it Nico Rosberg was very nearly shoved off the track in Hungary and he didn't forget. He probably thought Hamilton was getting confident enough that in direct battle he would always be able to be the "harder" driver. This reminds me that season when Hamilton and Massa collided often. Boys playing in a dangerous courtyard, and none wants the other to think bullying him is possible.
Also, this brought me Turkey 2010 to memory. Vettel going to the better line, Webber not moving over, in a "to hell with consequences" attitude.
In the end, I really think Rosberg acted out of anger, with his heart not his brain, because if he had used the brain the odds were clearly against him. When front wings meet rear tyres, you have a 100% chance of front wing serious failure and about 20% chance of rear tyre deflation. Rosberg was VERY lucky with the outcome.
Whatever the case, will be interesting if these two meet again on track.
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- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
- 29,100
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
This was a low move by Rosberg, very low.
"Didn’t attempt to avoid hitting..." = He allowed contact to happen = conscious decision to make contact = deliberately hitting an opponent.
No wonder the team are absolutely furious with Rosberg. Hitting your team mate on purpose is a cardinal sin in Formula 1, and Mercedes ought to be thinking about his future at the team if he is prepared to do things like this. It also puts Monaco firmly into perspective.
"Didn’t attempt to avoid hitting..." = He allowed contact to happen = conscious decision to make contact = deliberately hitting an opponent.
No wonder the team are absolutely furious with Rosberg. Hitting your team mate on purpose is a cardinal sin in Formula 1, and Mercedes ought to be thinking about his future at the team if he is prepared to do things like this. It also puts Monaco firmly into perspective.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
What about Spain? Rosberg was livid that Hamilton ignored instructions from the team and used a higher fuel-flow setting than had been previously agreed. Likewise Hungary, where Hamilton refused to move aside for him, costing them another potential 1-2 finish, even though he gained nothing from ignoring the order and lost nothing from obeying it.
This is probably what Rosberg is upset about - Hamilton has proven to be just as ruthless an uncompromising as he has, and yet Hamilton is applauded for it whereas Rosberg is condemned. I think the team is bowing to public pressure to support Hamilton more, even when his problems are of their own making. And I think their campaign started to come apart at the seams as soon as they started doing it.
I can't agree with what Rosberg did, but I think he has every right to be upset - Mercedes have partially compromised his title bid for the sake of saving face in the public arena. And all because Hamilton is doing what Mark Webber did, and playing the media for his own gain.
- 2,998
- England
- Peasantslayer
Rosberg started this fuel-flow dispute in Bahrain, as if a tyre advantage wasn't enough.
I wouldn't call not backing off a second and letting your team mate through ruthless, the only driver that would obey an order like that would be a 2nd Ferrari driver.
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- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
There is a massive difference between what Rosberg did on Sunday and what Hamilton did in Spain. Rosberg has, by all reasonable interpretations, flouted the rules of the sport by deliberately hitting another driver - not just any another driver, but his only serious championship rival. That's not ignoring a dubious call by his bosses - that's cheating. There's a gulf of difference between putting your own interests first and actively trying to cause damage to your opponent's car (and title aspirations).
I'm an Alonso fan, not a Hamilton one, so why defend him through 'misrepresenting the situation', as you put it? I saw what I saw. Which, apparently, was what most of the fans, along with the Merc bosses, also saw. The pass was not on. Hamilton had the line. Rosberg knew that.
BHRxRacer
(Banned)
- 1,214
Hamilton didn't follow team orders and proudly said "I'm driving for myself" after the race, yet got away with it and the team supported it to avoid the fans slaughtering them. Rosberg wasn't happy with that.
Hamilton pulled a nasty move at around lap 17 in Bahrain and had Rosberg not avoided it, would've been a massive crash. Very similar to what Alonso did to Vettel at Silverstone, and Alonso himself confessed it's "on the limit"
Hamilton constantly said **** like "I knew he'd do something like that" regarding Monaco, and instead of being vilified for it, Rosberg was.
At Bahrain? This is insane. If that's your memory, I'll upload the damn video.
On second thought, you did say Maldonado's hand was steering right when the wheels are clearly pointing to the left
His tyre advantage only lasted a few laps, and the fuel map Rosberg used at Bahrain hadn't been disallowed by the team yet as far as I know.
- 2,998
- England
- Peasantslayer
- 86,488
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
If you like. You argued the toss at the time too, but on both the early spat (lap 17ish?) and the later one (lap 55), Rosberg went too deep into braking and Hamilton cut back on the inside, running across Rosberg's nose on exit. On both occasions there was ten to fifteen feet more track to Rosberg's left - and yet he was whining on the radio about being run off the road. It's a pity this video has been removed by FOM - but the preview image shows it perfectly...
Amusingly I recall Vettel running one of the Williams literally off the road on the straight. Just like Rosberg did to Alonso in 2012...
On second thought, you did say Maldonado's hand was steering right when the wheels are clearly pointing to the left
Left, left, left, left a bit more, left
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BHRxRacer
(Banned)
- 1,214
How convenient for the GIF to stop right when he starts turning left left left left left.If you like. You argued the toss at the time too, but on both the early spat (lap 17ish?) and the later one (lap 55), Rosberg went too deep into braking and Hamilton cut back on the inside, running across Rosberg's nose on exit. On both occasions there was ten to fifteen feet more track to Rosberg's left - and yet he was whining on the radio about being run off the road. It's a pity this video has been removed by FOM - but the preview image shows it perfectly...
Amusingly I recall Vettel running one of the Williams literally off the road on the straight. Just like Rosberg did to Alonso in 2012...
Left, left, left, left a bit more, left
And yes, Rosberg is why we got the "ALL THE TIME YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE SPACE", and it wasn't just Alonso. He pushed off Hamilton that race as well. He only complained about the lap 16-17 incident, not the latter ones. I disagree, and I think he should complain about the latter ones as well.
I'll upload the video when I get a bit more time later.
And Hamilton should've known full well Rosberg was going to cut back in at Les Combes
- 7,068
- UK
Any normal driver would have slotted in behind Lewis but Pastor of course is never going to back out and ruins both their races.
Pastor turns left for the corner after but because of his stupidity and not giving in he goes over the kerb instead of aborting the chicane and slotting in behind.
Pastor turns left for the corner after but because of his stupidity and not giving in he goes over the kerb instead of aborting the chicane and slotting in behind.
