2015 Dodge Challenger

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I'm not sure how Toyota deciding to start development of a second car to use the engine after the LS400 was finalized means that the engine wasn't designed specifically for the LS400. The original Calty concept also required significant redesigns of what were originally supposed to be straight swaps of LS400 components to use them without substantial styling changes to the car (for a car that cost several thousand less than the LS did, to boot), so again, Toyota really just didn't care how much it cost.


Ford, in comparison, launched the Continental Mark VIII on what was essentially a stretched Thunderbird platform with the only real "new" thing being the debut of the DOHC version of the Modular V8, and the prices for it fell right between the SC300 and SC400 anyway. Even allowing the fact that the MN12 development went so horrendously over budget that it essentially doomed all three cars on it from the start, a warmed over T-Bird with more overhangs blatantly didn't cost Ford anywhere near as much as Toyota spent on the Z30.
 
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Tornado
I'm not sure how Toyota deciding to start development of a second car to use the engine after the LS400 was finalized means that the engine wasn't designed specifically for the LS400. The original Calty concept also required significant redesigns of what were originally supposed to be straight swaps of LS400 components to use them without substantial styling changes to the car (for a car that cost several thousand less than the LS did, to boot), so again, Toyota really just didn't care how much it cost.
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Do you have anything that shows that it was solely for the LS400? Considering the time the car came out in relation to the time the SC came out being not that far apart even in development with the idea as far as I can pinpoint to 1988/89 and the LS being like 85/86 when it started being conceptualized. So that to me tells me they wanted a range of cars or line up that's my point. If you can show me something otherwise to sway that, then go ahead but as I showed you and from other reads in the past the car was planned.

However, none of this has anything to do with the analogy I put forth to the user that you now seem to be defending. And basically your making the point I'm trying to make there are car companies with a history of spending tons of money on great R&D and failed R&D, why for some reason the user thinks dodge wouldn't do the same thus means he may have the belief that no manufacture would do it, thus I provide him a time in history where that idea would be wrong.


Ford, in comparison, launched the Continental Mark VIII on what was essentially a stretched Thunderbird platform with the only real "new" thing being the debut of the DOHC version of the Modular V8, and the prices for it fell right between the SC300 and SC400 anyway. Even allowing the fact that the MN12 development went so horrendously over budget that it essentially doomed all three cars on it from the start, a warmed over T-Bird with more overhangs blatantly didn't cost Ford anywhere near as much as Toyota spent on the Z30.
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No, but Ford is another group with a vast history of spending money on cars especially during the 90s that end up being horrible failures after going into production and the money being spent. My point is that if Dodge can't even be bothered to allow a tire that is of it's Bigger siblings size or a step or two under, then what's the point of trying to make the fastest most powerful sub-super car/halo car? If you can't take tire size seriously then clearly beating Ford, Chevy, and anyone else in this range is a non-issue and if so that is an issue for me with Dodge and this car.
 
You guize look.

2015-dodge-challenger-ny.jpg


^ 2015 MY Dodge Challenger ^
 
Are you going to go to every slightly off topic thread and act like the righteous voice of reason. If you read what's being said and take in the context of how it started it is about this car or subsequent car for the other threads you're currently doing this in.

The point is sometimes tangents are used to make a point, and though it may not have challenger in every other word we are still keeping it on topic.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Do you have anything that shows that it was solely for the LS400? Considering the time the car came out in relation to the time the SC came out being not that far apart even in development with the idea as far as I can pinpoint to 1988/89 and the LS being like 85/86 when it started being conceptualized. So that to me tells me they wanted a range of cars or line up that's my point.
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An entire range of cars was always on the cards. The ES250 debuting at the same time as the LS400 did makes that obvious, even though the first ES wasn't much farther removed from the Camry than the Cimarron was the Cavalier. There's a long way to go between "Lexus always wanted to build a coupe to use the LS400 platform, drivetrain and various other components in as well" and "Lexus always wanted to build a coupe that couldn't actually use the LS400 platform, drivetrain and various other components in without all but the transmission being substantially redesigned." That actually hurts your point since the latter was what happened and Toyota still didn't care whether what they charged for it reflected how much it had cost them. That was why I brought up the Continental Mark VIII, because its price in relation to the SC300/SC400 in no way reflected a similar level of investment between the two cars.

LMSCorvetteGT2
However, none of this has anything to do with the analogy I put forth to the user that you now seem to be defending. And basically your making the point I'm trying to make there are car companies with a history of spending tons of money on great R&D and failed R&D, why for some reason the user thinks dodge wouldn't do the same thus means he may have the belief that no manufacture would do it, thus I provide him a time in history where that idea would be wrong.
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I'm not defending anyone or arguing the same thing you are. I'm pointing out that a company that created a completely bespoke car for a brand new brand and did both with seemingly no regard for development budget or timeline before selling the car for a cost dramatically under what it cost just to assemble it, then did the same thing for the coupe model two years later since they had to redesign almost everything from the first car to get it to work with the second, is not particularly related to a pumped up version of an existing car built on a shoestring budget only a few years after half of the parent company went bankrupt and was bought by the other half. Dodge very much has to worry about how much investment they have to put in to a car with an extremely small sales niche, and the car has to be cheap enough that they can make a reasonable profit on it while still making it roughly competitive with its rivals. Toyota in 1983, when they started working on the LS400, simply did not care about either of those things. Toyota in 1988, when they had to redo a lot of the work they did since 1983 to get it to fit in the Calty concept without many changes instead of just making a 2 door LS400 as many thought they were going to do (as the Popular Mechanics article points out), simply did not care about either of those things.


You're saying Dodge should have put 295/355 tires or something similar in a car that according to Car and Driver tops out without significant redesign at 275, even though they're only going to sell a thousand or so per year if that. Yeah, it's kind of silly that Dodge put 275 tires on a car that has 700 horsepower and weighs 4500 pounds. Yes, the car will undoubtedly suffer for it in comparison to the Camaro ZL1, if not the GT500. But yes, it also makes sense why they did it that way, so compromised as it is it still doesn't make sense to bring up two cars with infamously expensive and extensive development periods as an example of what Dodge should have done instead.
 
Tornado
An entire range of cars was always on the cards. The ES250 debuting at the same time as the LS400 did makes that obvious, even though the first ES wasn't much farther removed from the Camry than the Cimarron was the Cavalier. There's a long way to go between "Lexus always wanted to build a coupe to use the LS400 platform, drivetrain and various other components in as well" and "Lexus always wanted to build a coupe that couldn't actually use the LS400 platform, drivetrain and various other components in without all but the transmission being substantially redesigned." That actually hurts your point since the latter was what happened and Toyota still didn't care whether what they charged for it reflected how much it had cost them. That was why I brought up the Continental Mark VIII, because its price in relation to the SC300/SC400 in no way reflected a similar level of investment between the two cars.
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How does that have to do with me saying the car should have cost way more than due to the R&D cost of the engine and the car itself if said user thinks that the Dodge would jump up to Viper cost for a bit of rear work? Also no it doesn't make it obvious.

I'm not defending anyone or arguing the same thing you are. I'm pointing out that a company that created a completely bespoke car for a brand new brand and did both with seemingly no regard for development budget or timeline before selling the car for a cost dramatically under what it cost just to assemble it, then did the same thing for the coupe model two years later since they had to redesign almost everything from the first car to get it to work with the second, is not particularly related to a pumped up version of an existing car built on a shoestring budget only a few years after half of the parent company went bankrupt and was bought by the other half. Dodge very much has to worry about how much investment they have to put in to a car with an extremely small sales niche, and the car has to be cheap enough that they can make a reasonable profit on it while still making it roughly competitive with its rivals. Toyota in 1983, when they started working on the LS400, simply did not care about either of those things. Toyota in 1988, when they had to redo a lot of the work they did since 1983 to get it to fit in the Calty concept without many changes instead of just making a 2 door LS400 as many thought they were going to do (as the Popular Mechanics article points out), simply did not care about either of those things.
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We don't know if they're on a shoestring budget or not, considering they seem to being doing plenty of face lifts and redesigns these days as well as trying to make various models and "specials to sell". The point is that it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to rework the rear to fit those tires. If it does, then they may want to get of the business of making a trumped up car to compete with rivals that don't have said issues. Once again there is a relation, if manufactures can afford to spends pits of money on their various cars, then it's troubling that people seemingly think that or have some insight I haven't seen that Dodge is the poor man with a cup out for spare change while wearing flashy clothing.

You're saying Dodge should have put 295/355 tires in a car that according to Car and Driver tops out without significant redesign at 275, even though they're only going to sell a thousand or so per year if that. Yeah, it's kind of silly that Dodge put 275 tires on a car that has 700 horsepower and weighs 4500 pounds. Yes, the car will undoubtedly suffer for it in comparison to the Camaro ZL1, if not the GT500. But yes, it also makes sense why they did it that way, so compromised as it is it still doesn't make sense to bring up two cars with infamously expensive and extensive development periods as an example of what Dodge should have done instead.
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So what if it doesn't make sense to you? That's not my problem, that's Dodge's problem for coming to the party late and doing all these other silly things before the financial crash, and then not putting together a plan to get out of it faster than the other two. If the car suffers because Dodge thought they could just jump in with what everyone seems to be implying as a car with different engine strapped with a supercharger and basically a drop in the bucket as far as money goes, it's there fault. They're comparing themselves to those guys and thus they will be judged like those guys. What's the point of you saying it makes no sense to bring it up, it makes all the sense to bring it up because that is the criteria being judged. If it was some fantasy I could see not doing so but that isn't the case.

EDIT:

Actually you know what you win I've had something come up and it's really brought me down and I rather just concede.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
How does that have to do with me saying the car should have cost way more than due to the R&D cost of the engine and the car itself
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Because Toyota didn't care. That's the fundamental disconnect between the two examples. Lexus debuted with a single car they spent a billion dollars (in 1980s money) and half a decade making. Nearly everything about it was made from scratch to be the best car in the luxury car market, period (no small task when it was designed to go against the W124 that Mercedes had also designed with the same goals); and they debuted it for less money than this piece of 🤬:

1990_STS_front.jpg


They then redid all of that work again over the course of three years for the extremely wild (at the time) sports coupe, which they sold at the same price as an Eldorado vis a vis base models.





Dodge at least seems to hope to make money on every Hellcat they sell. That means the extent of the performance modifications are dictated by the base chassis. That means pushing the price past the other two comparable models on the justification of more power = more better. In that respect, Dodge simply wants to cash in on the ride Ford got from 2007-2011. It's certainly cynical of them, and the Camaro ZL1 will undoubtedly remain the best car of the three; but it will probably work.


LMSCorvetteGT2
We don't know if they're on a shoestring budget or not, considering they seem to being doing plenty of face lifts and redesigns these days as well as trying to make various models and "specials to sell".
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That's not the best example, since that is exactly what Ford did for the first half of the 1980s while they were flirting with bankruptcy. Fairmont became Granada became LTD in the span of 3 years, all so they could operate cheap enough to keep the lights on while they were finishing the Taurus.

LMSCorvetteGT2
Once again there is a relation, if manufactures can afford to spends pits of money on their various cars, then it's troubling that people seemingly think that or have some insight I haven't seen that Dodge is the poor man with a cup out for spare change while wearing flashy clothing.
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Manufacturers can afford to spend pits of money on various cars, but that doesn't translate to every car can be cheaply reengineered to use components dramatically different from what were originally designed to be used.

LMSCorvetteGT2
So what if it doesn't make sense to you?
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"Those two cars" being the Lexus LS400 and the Lexus SC400. My apologies.
 
I really, really, really do not feel like waiting 2 years to drive this in a GT game. Wish we could get it as a DLC add on.

 
I've just seen my first Challenger in the metal as it drove past. Not as bulky looking as I thought, between a Vauxhall Astra police car and a Transit van.

Think I'd burst if I ever saw a Hellcat over here!
 
It looks ridiculous, I mean I love what they do with the Viper in GT racing but this...a long and wide body kit?

Also why not join a bigger and more challenging series and not one that hasn't been nearly what it was for decades and is more of an expensive grass roots series. I mean PWC or Continental or be really brave and do GT3 as well for cheaper entry.
 
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They're not even going for the TUDOR series? Or even Pirelli World Challenge? I'm glad to see its back, but man, I'd want it to move up to a bigger series to be sure it'd see competition with the Camaro and Mustang.
 
2014-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL1-2015-Dodge-Challenger-SRT-Hellcat-front-three-quarters.jpg

Camaro ZL1 vs Hellcat Challenger

http://m.motortrend.com/roadtests/c...aro_zl1_vs_2015_dodge_challenger_srt_hellcat/

"Not surprisingly with more than 700 horsepower on tap and narrow 275-width Pirelli P Zero rear tires, the Challenger proved difficult to launch even with launch control enabled. The drag-race-ready Challenger's best 0-60 mph run was with a second-gear start, resulting in a 3.7-second time, and an impressive quarter-mile performance of 11.7 seconds at a stupid-fast 125.4 mph."

Just as I thought not enough rubber for the claimed 11.2 1/4 time. Will be a handful to achieve that time (good track conditions, prep and driver). Impressive trap speed though.
 
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As ridiculous as the Hellcat is, it is still cool, regardless of whether or not you're a Mopar, Ford, or Chevrolet fan. I don't think there is really any way to get around that.

Its all about the performance you want and how much money you've got. As much as I'd like to say, "Yeah, I'd rather have the ZL1," the reality is definitely that I'd rather have the Hellcat right now. And that's a huge win for Dodge.
 
YSSMAN
As ridiculous as the Hellcat is, it is still cool, regardless of whether or not you're a Mopar, Ford, or Chevrolet fan. I don't think there is really any way to get around that.

Its all about the performance you want and how much money you've got. As much as I'd like to say, "Yeah, I'd rather have the ZL1," the reality is definitely that I'd rather have the Hellcat right now. And that's a huge win for Dodge.
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I'm more of a track handling car guy and these two quotes stuck out for me.

"While the Camaro behaves like a sports car, the Challenger pretends to be nothing else than a straight-line dragster, and when you toss a corner its way it can be a handful. As associate editor Scott Evans put it, the Hellcat handles "just like a Challenger. Understeer into the corner, oversteer out." The quickest way around the figure eight ultimately was the old tried and true racing mantra of "slow in, fast out" as you lap the boat-like car."

"Testing director Kim Reynolds summed up the differences in personalities between the Camaro and Challenger best. After lapping the Hellcat as well as a Camaro 1LE that happened to be at the track, he pointed to the Camaro and said it felt like it was designed by McLaren or Red Bull's Formula 1 teams. The Hellcat, on the other hand, "feels like it was developed by [Hot Rod's] Freiburger and Finnegan."

That being said, the 707hp you get with the Hellcat at that price is pretty hard to pass up. The car is a monster and I really like the looks all around.. Tough choice. Though I'd rather have the Z/28 but that's not in the equation due to the price difference (I'd never spend that much on a Camaro) and at that I'd rather spend a bit more for a C7 Z06.
 
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.85 g isn't something I'd write home about from the top tier car in their line up next to the viper.

Also this makes sense from the MT article @Organ-Donor nicely put up for us if a car is only doing that it's pushing outward and probably having too much understeer with corner entry.
 
I wasn't talking about the G's it pulled (seen greater from other mags.) I'm talking about the time it took to complete the figure 8
 
Rather get the ZL1 to be honest. I don't particularly find the 707 HP appealing. Probably has to do with the gas prices and insurance prices where I live :(
 
xNEVER-ONEx
Rather get the ZL1 to be honest. I don't particularly find the 707 HP appealing. Probably has to do with the gas prices and insurance prices where I live :(
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Well the Challenger is said to get 20MPG Hwy when driven as a daily driver.... THe ZL1 is rated at 19HWY. either way Gas shouldnt be a issue if you can afford either of these cars.
 

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