2016 Le Mans 24 Hours - 15th to 19th June 2016
- Thread starter Furinkazen
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- Sweden
SRO came up with a propsal on how to allow for factory teams in certain races (Le Mans f ex). Basically it would mean that they use cars already on location, rather than shipping them from all over the world. Cost effective. Two cars/team, would allow for a lot of cars. If they also allow only two cars/manufacturer, that would be interesting. There are 15 internationally homologated manufacturers in GT3 next year. Not counting Reiter and Emil Frey.
See above as one solution. I would however very much welcome a GT1 revamp.
- 2,965
- Curitiba
To get back to GT1 - and yeah, it would be seriously cool - they'd need to make sure to build a formula that don't allow the costs to skyrocket. And the ammount of politics envolved on this, plus the need of manufacturers backing up the idea makes it pretty much impossible.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
The lengths people are going to to devalue the efforts of a team who did nothing wrong all race leaves a very bad taste in the mouth.
Porsche were so respectful, as were the rest of the teams, because they knew it could've been them getting the failure instead. Reliability is not an issue for Toyota. We got a car to second place with no parts failures, we were just seconds away from both. Not even Audi could do that in their era of dominance. Personal feelings aside, I've simply never seen a team in any endurance race put together such a slick effort without a single fault - it was beyond special to see the team perform like that.
I don't care about the result. This will go down as the great Porsche and Toyota battle of 2016, and it's a race we'll be remembering for decades to come. I'm most proud of the fact that it was the least funded, still the underdog team, who took it to Porsche and raced their hearts out. It wasn't BoP assisted, it wasn't through attrition or luck, both teams raced neck and neck until the checkered flag. Both are deserving of every bit of praise they get.
Porsche were so respectful, as were the rest of the teams, because they knew it could've been them getting the failure instead. Reliability is not an issue for Toyota. We got a car to second place with no parts failures, we were just seconds away from both. Not even Audi could do that in their era of dominance. Personal feelings aside, I've simply never seen a team in any endurance race put together such a slick effort without a single fault - it was beyond special to see the team perform like that.
I don't care about the result. This will go down as the great Porsche and Toyota battle of 2016, and it's a race we'll be remembering for decades to come. I'm most proud of the fact that it was the least funded, still the underdog team, who took it to Porsche and raced their hearts out. It wasn't BoP assisted, it wasn't through attrition or luck, both teams raced neck and neck until the checkered flag. Both are deserving of every bit of praise they get.
- 15,383
- TRAPPIST-1g
- ProjectWHaT
Toyota shouldn't be called a underdog. They won the WEC in 2014, winning 7 of 8 races.
- 2,965
- Curitiba
I don't care for Toyota. Really don't. But the sadness of their defeat and the way they took it, with true sportsmanship, makes me admire them. Congratulations, Toyota. Lesser manufacturers would use this crushing defeat as a justification for killing the program (cof, cof, cof Peugeot, cof).
And in a "if scenario" - as much as in the end of the day if doesn't count - if Kobayashi didn't wrecked the floor of the #6, crashing in a random Ferrari at night, Toyota would probably have won this with this car, which had show stronger performance until the aero bits start to damaging its pace.
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- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
As though I'm not aware of that? 2014 is irrelevant now. Porsche were in a development year and the Audi was just bad compared to the TS050. It would've been 8/8 if not for a tiny cheap part outside of their control frazzling itself.
Since 2015, when everyone was pretty much equal, our lack of budget showed. Going into this year things were still quiet, and both races so far this season have sent rotten luck our way.
If you'd have said last week that Toyota would narrowly miss the win as the VAG cars suffered reliability issues, Audi barely even featuring, and we were on par with Porsche for outright pace, I'm confident you would've been laughed off the forum. The end result doesn't represent the leap forward that's been made, and I think people are going to realise that the championship is very much a six way battle once more. I'm feeling so enthused about round 4. It feels like we have our mojo back.
- 2,965
- Curitiba
- 11,128
- Central Coast, NSW
- Com_Fox5
- EelX 5
It was the car, the car is the same place as both the team and the drivers.
Not all cars in the same team are treated equally. Also the car broke down, that sounds like a reliability issue even if its very minor.
By this logic, I'd say Audi have actually been the underdogs since 2014, the rule change really screwed their usual development of cars and had to rely on everything that isn't speed or pace to win.
- 2,976
- Sweden
That is what GTE was supposed to be, but the costs are now back to GT1 levels anyway.
- 2,965
- Curitiba
- 185
IMO it's not a coincidence that Toyota failed again to win Le Mans. Their mentality is wrong. Audi and Porsche know how to play the game. Apparently it was an engine failure that took away the victory. It might have been the same problem they had in Spa and Toyota went to Le Mans confident the problem couldn't happen there. If they didn't do anything to solve or minimize the problem before going to Le Mans, then they took the risk. In a 24h race you need to play safe. The #6 car had handling issues and Sarrazin was complaining about it on the radio. Toyota didn't try to repair it and took the risk. They were several laps ahead and could try to fix it and secure the position. That's just an example of how things could've been worse.
In 2014 they were leading the race and the #7 had a failure they could avoid if they had repaired the car earlier.
Audi play same most of the time. They try to minimize bigger issues by taking precautionary actions, even if it would cost a little bit of time. In this race they changed the brakes on the #7 after the #8's brakes had some issues that ended up causing damage to other components, in order to avoid bigger issues. Audi had their worst Le Mans ever, yet they achieved another podium because they managed to keep both cars running. That's the spirit of Le Mans.
Porsche also played safe when they changed the tyres with just minutes until the end. They wanted to secure the second place. It's those kind of things Toyota should learn.
Toyota had a huge bad luck, but I don't think it was only that.
In 2014 they were leading the race and the #7 had a failure they could avoid if they had repaired the car earlier.
Audi play same most of the time. They try to minimize bigger issues by taking precautionary actions, even if it would cost a little bit of time. In this race they changed the brakes on the #7 after the #8's brakes had some issues that ended up causing damage to other components, in order to avoid bigger issues. Audi had their worst Le Mans ever, yet they achieved another podium because they managed to keep both cars running. That's the spirit of Le Mans.
Porsche also played safe when they changed the tyres with just minutes until the end. They wanted to secure the second place. It's those kind of things Toyota should learn.
Toyota had a huge bad luck, but I don't think it was only that.
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- 4,487
- YorkshireLand
- SVTlover
I know I'm a touch late to the party but Toyota's loss yesterday was the cruellest thing I've ever seen in sport, never mind motorsport. This is going to hurt them badly, fingers crossed they come back stronger next year. Porsche were so damn lucky to get that win.
I was also really pleased with Ford winning their class and also having all the cars finish. Hopefully they improve in the following races in the WEC.
I was also really pleased with Ford winning their class and also having all the cars finish. Hopefully they improve in the following races in the WEC.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
They go hand in hand to produce results, but one cannot be blamed for the other.
This sounds like you didn't watch the race.
Preferential treatment... I highly doubt. They have no need to and it's not like they could gain much through it. If you didn't know, the #5 was down considerably on the #6, and it only changed because the #6 got clobbered during the night. Apart from 30 seconds lost from a spin, the #6 would've had a perfect race.
With regards to reliability, yes, it did break - but it wasn't an immediate or catastrophic failure, or something that plagued both cars. Every car that's ever done a 24 hour race has something go slightly awry - it's just a shame the wrong car went awry at the wrong time.
It's the anomaly in a championship of 6 hour races. The only mechanical issue any TS050 suffered was after running four times longer than it ever has done so far. There should be no worry about making them run like clockwork for the remainder of the season.
I'm a Toyota super fan and have always been. I'm always going to put a positive spin on things in my mind, but I genuinely feel like the car has turned a huge corner in development terms. The race didn't anger or upset me, it excited me. The rest of the championship is well and truly on.
- 11,128
- Central Coast, NSW
- Com_Fox5
- EelX 5
I was not suggesting preferential treatment, the 2 cars probably went for different strategies to get at least 1 car to win. Each car had their own faults afterall.
In a 24 Hour Race, you have to try te counter this issue of long distance racing, Porsche did it but sadly Toyota decided to risk it, it could've payed off but it didn't.
Didn't they have problems at Spa?
No kidding.
I'm doubtful, after Le Mans, the races tend to be rather formulaic as the previous 2 years been and judging by the points gap, wouldn't be surprised if Porsche won.
- 12,122
- Liverpool
- CARBOYXJR
Yes, which is exactly the point I'm using to quell the thought that the Toyotas are ticking time bombs - both Silverstone and Spa showed the car had significant weaknesses in just the space of 6 hours. This time the cars were faster than ever before and managed to go for 4 times that distance, one just falling a few minutes short, with zero issues. That's hugely encouraging.
It's interesting to chart the reliability of the big three this season. The hybrids have had a good record in the last two years of finishing races and having fairly few terminal issues, but for some reason the 2016 cars have looked much more temperamental. Audi for me are the big shock - even without the pace they've always brought absolute tanks to the race with unparalleled strategy and teamwork, but this year they really look like a team under pressure. Both cars were off the pace from the start of LM week, and apart from trying to jump to the head of the pack once the race went green, they just looked like they were in no man's land. The reliability and general slick pit work wasn't there either. Porsche were lucky to get the #2 through the race with no major issues after what happened to the #1, but I'm sure both VAG teams know the rest of the season isn't going to be plain sailing seeing as Toyota seem to have the short-term gremlins ironed out. It's still going to be 919 front row lockouts because it's simply just the fastest car over a single lap, but beyond that, and I think for the first time ever, it's anyone's season to take.
- 3,183
- Hong Kong
- Hybrid_Tifoso
For those who are saying that Toyota is not an underdog, it could possibly be, at least financially, as I remember somebody saying in a thread in the Motorsports forum that Toyota spends the least among the 3 LMP1 top-tier manufacturers, with the annual budget quite some way behind Audi and Porsche.
If you don't believe the above, then perhaps you should believe in this:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/vasselon-toyota-there-was-a-need-for-a-reaction/
...in which Pascal Vasselon says that 'we will have a supplementary budget for the coming season (2016), even if it won’t be at the level of others.'
And also this:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/toyota-to-build-all-new-lmp1-car-for-2016/
... in which the same person said that 'we (Toyota) will have increased resources. It won’t be a major increase. We will never be close to Audi or Porsche...'
What's more, there is this:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/peugeot-not-ruling-out-lmp1-return-in-short-term/
...which says 'Audi and Porsche reportedly spending in excess of $200 million annually, and Toyota having recently increased its 2016 budget to nearly $100 million'.
All of the above sources point to Toyota being the underdog, in terms of finance, which is a big part in the R&D of the car.
If you don't believe the above, then perhaps you should believe in this:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/vasselon-toyota-there-was-a-need-for-a-reaction/
...in which Pascal Vasselon says that 'we will have a supplementary budget for the coming season (2016), even if it won’t be at the level of others.'
And also this:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/toyota-to-build-all-new-lmp1-car-for-2016/
... in which the same person said that 'we (Toyota) will have increased resources. It won’t be a major increase. We will never be close to Audi or Porsche...'
What's more, there is this:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/peugeot-not-ruling-out-lmp1-return-in-short-term/
...which says 'Audi and Porsche reportedly spending in excess of $200 million annually, and Toyota having recently increased its 2016 budget to nearly $100 million'.
All of the above sources point to Toyota being the underdog, in terms of finance, which is a big part in the R&D of the car.
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- 2,976
- Sweden
At least it was. The new rules are less restrictive engine wise.
Car included? Seems a little low to me.
IIRC a driver (Mike Hedlund) posted some dollar number a few years ago (2014), comparing GTD and GTE AM. AM was roughly twice the price of GTD. PRO is certainly even more expensive, but GT3 is certainly more expensive than GTD aswell.
- 9,089
- Scotland
That's not included car my figures come from a driver that was offered a drive for a GTE team last year. If you fancy a single 6hr round it's 250k.
Also @R0ssingt0n watch your drive back!
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ees-Britain-UK-EU-referendum-Brexit-Euro-2016
CodeRedR51
Premium
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- United States
- 6,259
- Tecumseh, MI
- I_Fail_At_FPS
Guess I'm not the only one who noticed that. I was about to say I didn't know Toyota had a lower budget than Audi and itself.Typo fix.
- 3,183
- Hong Kong
- Hybrid_Tifoso
Typo fix.
Welp, sorry. Thanks for correcting that. Guess that's what happens when you don't read your posts carefully enough before posting them.Guess I'm not the only one who noticed that. I was about to say I didn't know Toyota had a lower budget than Audi and itself.
- 966
It's the day after, and I have a few random thoughts after getting some sleep and also seeing my hometown win a pro sports championship for the first time in my life. While I doubt anyone will read, I'll ramble some thoughts.
While I like racing in general, I don't watch much of it, mainly because of the rarity of being able to see what I'm most fascinated by: endurance racing and rallies. I find NASCAR kind of dull, IndyCar mostly seems sad shell these days and the people (or person) running F1 make me nauseous. But endurance and rally events are great; I suspect I like the human elements of them. While NASCAR and F1 seem to be mostly about the machines, endurance and rally are more about the people keeping them going. And not only their skills, but the intensity of their hopes, both achieved and shattered. And none I've seen illustrate that more than this year's Le Mans.
So in the last few years I've looked forward to and watched Le Mans with little to no sleep. Even while sleeping I'll keep it playing, waking to the sound of broadcast engines and excited but tired announcers. I think this year's race will be the most memorable I've yet seen. It was the closest I recall, as two Toyotas and one Porsche traded the lead and charged at each other for the full 24 hours. The Audis and Rebellions lurked behind, struggling but continuing.
Like millions of others, I was hoping Toyota would win. I particularly remember the sight of the two Toyotas simultaneously pitting fairly early in the morning while a Porsche took the lead. Then the two rushed out to take it back, darting through traffic, lights flashing to alert the slower cars. At that point, they seemed unstoppable.
Then the lead Toyota failed with just a few minutes to go, and in an instant I and many people the world over watched joy turned to tears among one group of people while another group erupted in a disbelieving celebration. It was a deeply intense, very human moment, and one which I doubt I'll forget. It will likely remained mingled with another intense, very human image seen later that evening: Le Bron James weeping after winning the first championship for his home town in 52 years.
And in the aftermaths of both, the winners and losers showed a great deal of class and sportsmanship. (There are some exceptions, of course, but I'll ignore them). So, through all the intensity, heartbreak, noise and elation of the weekend, even I, a rather bookish nerd who normally keeps sports at a distance, got swept up in it, and am rather glad I did.
As a final note, Le Mans is the one sporting event I have long hoped and planned to attend, but I am troubled over the possibility of witnessing a tragedy. It was clear throughout last weekend's race how much of an effort has been placed into safety by both the competitors and the track officials. So I'm again thinking, maybe next year I'll be there, and maybe next year I'll see the return of a team that saw victory slip away in gut-wrenching fashion, and maybe I'll see them finally win. After all, I'm from Cleveland, where such hopes survived being dashed for over half a century.
While I like racing in general, I don't watch much of it, mainly because of the rarity of being able to see what I'm most fascinated by: endurance racing and rallies. I find NASCAR kind of dull, IndyCar mostly seems sad shell these days and the people (or person) running F1 make me nauseous. But endurance and rally events are great; I suspect I like the human elements of them. While NASCAR and F1 seem to be mostly about the machines, endurance and rally are more about the people keeping them going. And not only their skills, but the intensity of their hopes, both achieved and shattered. And none I've seen illustrate that more than this year's Le Mans.
So in the last few years I've looked forward to and watched Le Mans with little to no sleep. Even while sleeping I'll keep it playing, waking to the sound of broadcast engines and excited but tired announcers. I think this year's race will be the most memorable I've yet seen. It was the closest I recall, as two Toyotas and one Porsche traded the lead and charged at each other for the full 24 hours. The Audis and Rebellions lurked behind, struggling but continuing.
Like millions of others, I was hoping Toyota would win. I particularly remember the sight of the two Toyotas simultaneously pitting fairly early in the morning while a Porsche took the lead. Then the two rushed out to take it back, darting through traffic, lights flashing to alert the slower cars. At that point, they seemed unstoppable.
Then the lead Toyota failed with just a few minutes to go, and in an instant I and many people the world over watched joy turned to tears among one group of people while another group erupted in a disbelieving celebration. It was a deeply intense, very human moment, and one which I doubt I'll forget. It will likely remained mingled with another intense, very human image seen later that evening: Le Bron James weeping after winning the first championship for his home town in 52 years.
And in the aftermaths of both, the winners and losers showed a great deal of class and sportsmanship. (There are some exceptions, of course, but I'll ignore them). So, through all the intensity, heartbreak, noise and elation of the weekend, even I, a rather bookish nerd who normally keeps sports at a distance, got swept up in it, and am rather glad I did.
As a final note, Le Mans is the one sporting event I have long hoped and planned to attend, but I am troubled over the possibility of witnessing a tragedy. It was clear throughout last weekend's race how much of an effort has been placed into safety by both the competitors and the track officials. So I'm again thinking, maybe next year I'll be there, and maybe next year I'll see the return of a team that saw victory slip away in gut-wrenching fashion, and maybe I'll see them finally win. After all, I'm from Cleveland, where such hopes survived being dashed for over half a century.
- 4,741
- Bogota,Colombia
- GTP_ARP93
Again, and again, as cool as it would be the ACO is very much against it and it appearst that the manufacturers too since they have shown little to no interest in engaging in a cost war to win the GTE trophy (Well, besides you know who with you know what car). It is nigh impossible to return to the formulas that gave us the most legendary cars of yesteryear without incurring in the same issues that eventually killed them off.
All there is to do right now is either focus on the BoP to get it right and match Ford and Ferrari to the competition or ask various manufacturers to comit in a long-term effort to develop GT1/LMGTP-ish cars at a very high level...and cost.
What a load of bull:censored: by Ford and the ACO. Really pleased that Risi decided to disregard the Race Directors orders, they went full Thoreau and I like it, bruh!
Slum
(Banned)
- 49
- Northwest, USA
- SlumLord
Congratulations to You, Your Team, and Your City. I watched with utter shock & awe at the level The Cavs played with last night, and so happy for you all.
Like The Race, The Game, was, "As Epic As It Gets".
I wept tears of sadness for Toyota, and Japan, and then I wept tears of joy for The Cavs and Cleveland.
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