- 286
- Barcelona
- topu999
2017 Formula 1 Azerbaijan Grand PrixFormula 1
- Thread starter Jimlaad43
- 952 comments
- 53,223 views
- 823
- Hartlepool, UK
- SuperDiscoDaz
- Pooliedaz
- 15,532
- Cairo, Egypt
- GTP_SEMS
- 36,694
- Scotland
- GTP_daan
- 29,358
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
Well congratulations GT Planet. You've successfully convinced me to never come back to this site again due to:
- Users who engage in nasty circlejerks directed against me.
- Poor moderation that is both overly strict and inconsistent (I get warning points yet the circlejerks don't?).
- Site owner refused to even reply to my penalty appeal.
- Some of you guys are alright. Don't come to quick match lobby tomorrow morning.
- Users who engage in nasty circlejerks directed against me.
- Poor moderation that is both overly strict and inconsistent (I get warning points yet the circlejerks don't?).
- Site owner refused to even reply to my penalty appeal.
- Some of you guys are alright. Don't come to quick match lobby tomorrow morning.
- 87,480
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
You got warnings for calling someone an idiot and for a very long expletive in capital letters.
You don't know what warning points other people do or don't get.
You contacted me about this on Thursday morning. It's now Monday afternoon. Looks like you're expecting someone dealing with a site rebuild and debugging process, a week after E3, to respond to you in two business days or less for an appeal against a warning.
Perhaps a little more patience and perspective is required.
- 1,634
- Mass UTC-5
- HugoStiglitz_420 and GTP_HugoStiglitz
I tried driving the new Formula XR 17 in R3E yesterday at Macau and never even got close to making that hairpin turn
If that car is at all realistic I'd say you're absolutely right.
Completely agree with you. Except I would change it to Vettel Fanboys/Lewis Haters, and vice versa. I certainly saw more lewis haters take the Vettel Fanboys/fans positions than actual Vettel fans. I wouldn't be surprised if Lewis had more haters than Vettel does fanboys.
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- 1,388
- United States
- RazorSharkz
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
I'm sure he has already apologised to the team. It is, after all, Ferrari.
I don't think demanding an apology to the fans is necessary or will do much. It might placate tempers, but demanding an apology is an oxymoron; it can never be genuine. So what would is be about? Humbling Vettel? That just completely undermines the concept. Plus, you would wind up with drivers being forced to make apologies for every error. If Vettel must apologise, why doesn't Bottas have to apologise for his contact with Räikkönen, or Ocon for his contact with Pérez? If the standard you're using is that those were racing incidents and no action was taken, then I am still waiting for Hamilton to apologise for cutting the first corner in Mexico.
If Vettel is going to apologise, it has to be for the right reasons.
- 87,480
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Perhaps just every error that comes from a lapse of judgment under safety car conditions that caused them to sideswipe another car while angrily remonstrating with the driver instead of paying attention to the safety of the volunteer marshals who ensure that racing can take place in controlled conditions.
That'd probably suffice.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
But it's totally okay for a driver to ignore safety and leave the circuit at racing speed, cutting two corners in a cynical attempt to gain position and then try to claim that he only did it to avoid damaging the tyres even though another driver in an identical car had a similar problem but made significantly more effort to stay on the circuit and managed it without damaging his tyres? Because that's what Hamilton did in Mexico last year.
Or how about a driver who doesn't bother to do a circuit inspection and ends up running wide on the opening lap and attempts to rejoin the circuit at speed upon which he hits a drainage culvert - one that he would have spotted if he did the inspection - and causes a multi-car pile-up as a result? Because Räikkönen did that at Silverstone.
Both incidents were arguable far more dangerous than Vettel's contact, but neither Hamilton nor Räikkönen were required to apologise.
- 87,480
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Call me when they do it during a race neutralisation period to ensure the safety of track personnel on the circuit, and out of anger, and I might be interested.
The last F1 driver I remember making a knob out of himself by disregarding a safety car and putting the hammer down to catch up, subsequently crashing, was Grosjean. I think I called for him to be sanctioned for it at the time - and he was just stupid, not driving angry.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Good to know that it's okay for a driver to endanger lives at racing speed, but not to have a lapse of judgement behind a safety car.
Case in point, Räikkönen. He consciously chose not to do a circuit inspection. As a result, he had no idea the culvert was there when he ran wide and rejoined at speed. He caused a multi-car pile-up in one of the biggest accidents in recent years, which was a direct result if choices he consciously made, but there was no requirement that he apologise and Vettel forgetting himself under the safety car is the worse sin?
- 3,053
- England
- kilesa4568
Is your debate based on what happened on track or your obvious dislike of Hamilton?
- 87,480
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Yep, absolutely. Motorsport is dangerous, after all.
But we don't have a race without those guys in orange. They're there to make sure that when an incident occurs, everyone can be recovered to a safe place quickly and safely. When the safety car is out, or when there's waved yellows in a sector, the guys in orange may be away from their safe places and on a live circuit. Your job as a driver is no longer racing. It's to keep the guys in orange from any further harm.
Anyond who doesn't know this doesn't belong on a race track. This is basic stuff you get tested on for your beginner's licence.
I have no time for any driver who ignores this and keeps racing, putting marshals at risk. A guy who ignores the safety of the marshals because he is so angry that even as a four-time world champion he forgets how to control his car has at least one apology to make: to the marshals.
We don't race without them. They put themselves in danger to help us. We should look after them the best we can.
- 2,983
- Nowhere
- TheSweeney_
Yea, but regardless of whether Vettel meant to run into to Hamilton or not; and I refuse to believe he just "had a lapse in concentration", especially with a driver of his caliber, but into another car, potentially running it off track, under safety car conditions, under double waved yellows, is a great safety risk in itself. Double waved yellows are they to protect marshals, who may have to run onto the track to collect debris, cars and what not. So running into another driver to express your disgust, under any speed, is an absolute no-no, regardless.
At the end of the day, Hamilton was controlling the pace, as he had to right to do so, and Vettel was too overzealous to get going, thus running into the back of him. But there was no need to run into another car, just because "emotions were running high", to express your dissatisfaction with another drivers actions. That is a safety risk in itself.
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- 44,185
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
- 1,281
- CENLA
- SoCaLLbeer
This exactly... and I won't be upset at the FIA at all when he looses more license points and gets suspended. Just sad that Ferrari is loosing points over his actions.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Just a question, do you think Manslaughter is worse then Murder?
Because that is what im getting at from your posts.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
He also has the responsibility to ensure the restart was safe - which is odd, considering that he was the one repeatedly complaining over the radio that the safety car was too slow to be safe.
Your question assumes Vettel hit Hamilton deliberately, whereas Räikkönen's accident was deliberate. I'm not going to answer your question until you can prove that Vettel did it deliberately.
- 2,983
- Nowhere
- TheSweeney_
But the difference is, Vettel was endangering the lives of marshals with a completely unnecessary, and rather stupid move into another car. Yes, Hamilton had the responsibility to ensure the restart was safe, and he did. After all, the stewards examined his on board footage, and his telementary, and adjourned it to perfectly fine, and at the end of the day, it's only the stewards decision, which matters.
Also, I think @Famine explained it above rather brilliantly. The marshals are ultimately the life-blood of Motorsport, and without them, the world of Motorsport simply would not function. Plus, I'm lucky enough to know someone, who used to be a marshal themselves, and can only admire their bravery, and they way they conducted their job. Furthermore, the marshals put a lot of trust in the drivers to ensure their own safety is kept paramount, hence why we have safety cars, and double-waved yellow conditions.
So to endanger their lives, by deliberately making contact with another vehicle, under double-waved conditions, is a rather stupid move. Regardless of the speed in with which the contact takes place, you are posing as a great risk to the marshals on track. So that's why Vettels move was rather dumb, since that move posed as a safety risk to the marshals, as well as the other drivers. So, in my opinion, his penalty is rather justified.
This is why Hamilton was not penalised, besides not "brake checking" in my opinion, he controlled the pace accordingly. After all, as I've said before, the stewards decided that they way in which he controlled the restart, was perfectly safe and acceptable, as a decision would have been made otherwise had he not done so. And he was not the one, who forcefully made contact with another vehicle, because of his disgust with another drivers actions. At the end of the day, Vettel really didn't need to make contact with Hamilton, as he just dug himself a rather large hole.
Just to point out, I'm really not putting any bias towards any driver, or posing a fanboy to either one, but the simple fact is Vettel is the one in wrong, which the stewards dealt with accordingly.
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- 6,290
- Washington State
- OutlawQuadrant
Probably noted but lost in all the noise. Heck, Alonso finally got points and nary a peep.
Personally, I'm intrigued at the Perez/Ocon dynamic. I watched the replays again and it's fair to say that if Perez was in the wrong at Canada, Ocon was at the wrong at Baku. Clearly, Ocon was bullying Perez by pushing him off the corner and giving him no room off the exit. That said, I have little sympathy for Force India because they should've nipped this at the bud after Canada.
Oh, and a final important question to ask. Did Kimi ever get that steering wheel he asked for?
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
If there are marshalls on the circuit when a safety car restart is imminent, there are much bigger issues at hand.
This is where I stopped reading. Where is your proof that Vettel deliberately hit Hamilton - that when he pulled alongside the Mercedes, it was with the intention of colliding?
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Probably the act of turning his wheel to the right would be a big indicator of his intent. Tough call though. He might have slipped on a kebab someone threw onto the track.
- 23,800
- Philippines
I was having computer trouble yesterday, so I never got to edit. The post is edited now.
If you're up the outside, the leader still has the right to the racing line. You have to make it stick or back off.
If you're up the inside, the leader can't come off his line to block you. He HAS to leave you space.
The theory is that a car will be understeering towards the outside kerb off the corner apex, so it's unreasonable to assume he can tighten the line if he's going flat out.
But if he's going flat out, he will have to decelerate and come off the racing line to block the inside. And blocking is not allowed.
-----
Forcing another driver off the track is always unacceptable. But in the case of a driver following on the outside of the turn, that exception has always, always, ALWAYS been made. Lewis does the box out. Nico does the box out. Everyone does the box-out. F1 drivers love to box. An overtake on the outside from behind without a full overlap is always a marginal move, as you're putting yourself in danger... because, let's face it... if you're both at 10/10ths, the other driver is not going to be able to stop from barging boards with you... so it's your job as the following driver to make it stick cleanly.
The same goes with an inside lunge. Now, if you're already up alongside the guy under braking, then he has to give you room. If, like Sergio Perez a few races ago, you make a lunge from a hundred meters back and suddenly expect the leading driver to open up and let you through, well... you get a penalty for being a stupid stupidbrain.
Now, I'll admit I like the way Lewis drives, but he is an utter four-letter-word. And he's earned his fair share of penalties over the years... and invented new ones along the way. Does he drive dirty? Subjectively, sure. But he's learned from all his time in front of the stewards what he can and can't do under the rulebooks. If they're not penalizing him, it's because he's (finally) sticking to those rules.
I wrote about this on another site, here:
http://www.topgear.com.ph/news/raci...vertake-and-defend-your-position-in-formula-1
(TL;DR the article: The rules do not forbid boxing-out the attacker on the outside. Also, a lot of new rules are written because of people like Hamilton and Schumacher.)
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