2018 Grand Prix de MonacoFormula 1

[TheElbows]

I'd still really enjoy the teams being allocated X number of each compound at the beginning of the season, and then submitting to the FIA which compounds they're bringing to each race (in secret). Intentionally provide fewer sets of Hypersofts, etc...making it a rather large deal when a team decides to bring them. Adding some meta-strategy to the tire game, or something.

Without refueling the tire strategy is less interesting.

 

[baldgye]

Without refueling the tire strategy is less interesting.

Refuelling would ruin the on-track racing.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Being fair to Pirelli, the status quo of Monaco was almost broken thanks to the hyper soft tyres. It has pretty much always been a 1 stop race there given the advantage of track position over fresher / softer tyres. By having to qualify on the hyper softs, the top 10 were disadvantaged on strategy at the cost of better track position. It's no wonder then that towards the end of the race, the rest of the field who were on the best tyre strategy were able to reel in those who had to take the pain of racing on the hyper softs at some point. It is just a shame that despite the huge tyre advantage, Monaco still won in that it was still not easy at all to overtake...

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that the softest possible tyre combo (1 set of hypersoft; 1 set of ultrasoft) is enough to get you round 78 laps of a GP circuit - granted, it didn't look like it was going to work for some people and some tyres were pretty shot by the end, but of all the races on the F1 calendar that could use an extra element of strategy it would be Monaco. The only element of uncertainty was whether or not the HS/US combo was going to work and whether those (like Bottas) who were on Ultrasoft/Supersoft might have prevailed (which was a smart move by Mercedes to cover both options), but it turned out to be inconsequential. Also, Pirelli have perhaps got their nomenclature a tad wrong, since now they have two compounds that are even softer than Supersoft, but even they can withstand half a Monaco GP each. Perhaps next year they will go for an even softer compound that might make things a bit more interesting, but where do they go from 'hypersoft' - 'megasoft'.. 'ubersoft'..?

R3's?

Pirelli making good tyres for a change. Maybe they insisted and got permission to stop making junk tyres?

 

[TheElbows]

Refuelling would ruin the on-track racing.

You say that as if the current on-track racing is good?

 

[baldgye]

You say that as if the current on-track racing is good?

It is

 

[mustafur]

Refuelling wouldn't make the passing worse, bigger differences between what cars have got if anything would increase it.

The last time we had it we had rock hard tyres and no DRS it's not really a fair comparison.

 

[baldgye]

Refuelling wouldn't make the passing worse

Yeah it would. It would mean, like it used to mean, that the lions share of passing happened in the pits, rather than on track.
Why would you risk battling someone on track loosing time when you can just change fuelling strategies and over/under cut them?

Tyres change ever season and DRS wouldn't make any impact on pit strategies as the modern cars create so much dirty air...

 

[mustafur]

Yeah it would. It would mean, like it used to mean, that the lions share of passing happened in the pits, rather than on track.
Why would you risk battling someone on track loosing time when you can just change fuelling strategies and over/under cut them?

Tyres change ever season and DRS wouldn't make any impact on pit strategies as the modern cars create so much dirty air...

That was only because it was impossible to pass on track though, Fuel strategy can only help soo much it's not going to allow you to pass a whole field, if your running several seconds faster then the next guy at a half decent track for passing your going to get past these days DRS has allowed that.

 

[baldgye]

That was only because it was impossible to pass on track though

Why?

 

[mustafur]

Why?

No Tyre Drop off, no DRS, similar engine performance.

 

[baldgye]

No Tyre Drop off, no DRS, similar engine performance.

DRS didn't invent overtaking... and while tyre drop off was different, it still happened... we even had more than one manufacture! Also, not sure on that engine bit...

 

[mustafur]

DRS didn't invent overtaking... and while tyre drop off was different, it still happened... we even had more than one manufacture! Also, not sure on that engine bit...

All the proof you need is Valencia, impossible to overtake refuelling or not, as soon as DRS came on there was passing nearly every lap.

Refuelling has literally no effect on passing 2010 proved it.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

No Tyre Drop off, no DRS, similar engine performance.

- Tyres definitely dropped off, hypers especially and gave everyone outside the top 10 a good race strategy advantage.
- DRS down the main straight - it just isn't as effective in Monaco.
- Ricciardo had significantly less engine performance

That said, we all know Monaco is different to any other circuit. You don't expect to see many on track passes, so it is simply circuit design that means overtaking is more difficult. Refuelling definitely won't change that.

 

[mustafur]

- Tyres definitely dropped off, hypers especially and gave everyone outside the top 10 a good race strategy advantage.
- DRS down the main straight - it just isn't as effective in Monaco.
- Ricciardo had significantly less engine performance

That said, we all know Monaco is different to any other circuit. You don't expect to see many on track passes, so it is simply circuit design that means overtaking is more difficult.

Your completelty out of context, look above.

Im not talking about Monaco but every race in general.

 

[baldgye]

All the proof you need is Valencia, impossible to overtake refuelling or not, as soon as DRS came on there was passing nearly every lap.

Refuelling has literally no effect on passing 2010 proved it.

Well if that's your argument, there isn't much I can say is there?

 

[mustafur]

Well if that's your argument, there isn't much I can say is there?

But it opens a world of strategy, right now there is nothing to make you think strategy wise, so when there is a boring race the only hope is a safety car there is no options for strategy, everyone bar the odd few do the same thing.

A big factor that was missed when Refulling was banned is how each car handles different fuel loads, you would find there would be cars that had to have alot of fuel to keep the balance of the car where as others came alive with lower fuel strategies that is all gone now.

 

[baldgye]

But it opens a world of strategy, right now there is nothing to make you think strategy wise, so when there is a boring race the only hope is a safety car there is no options for strategy, everyone bar the odd few do the same thing.

Except, that isn't true.
I agree that the tyres this season are worse than previous seasons, but your notion of 2010 proving that refueling has zero effect is, to be kind, a simplistic view of the most complex sport in the world.

 

[Pezzarinho17]

That's why having tyres that give us 2 or 3 stop races are ideal. Plenty of strategy available with tyres degrading at the right rate.

 

[mustafur]

Except, that isn't true

Explain then?

What strategy options do you have when anything other then a 1 stop costs you huge time?

 

[mustafur]

That's why having tyres that give us 2 or 3 stop races are ideal. Plenty of strategy available with tyres degrading at the right rate.

It's a good idea but it doesn't seem to ever happen even when a company has been at it for 7 years, refuelling could make that happen naturally.

 

[baldgye]

What strategy options do you have when anything other then a 1 stop costs you huge time?

Why are we limited to only one stop now?
But, the tyre you start on, when to manage the tyres, when to stop, if you can under of over-cut the driver(s) in front.

It's a good idea but it doesn't seem to ever happen even when a company has been at it for 7 years

Again, this isn't true. In the last 7 years we have seen many races with many different strategies

 

[Pezzarinho17]

Again to be fair to Pirelli, they had to overcome a major change to the tyre regulations in 2017. All the work beforehand to give us those better tyre startegy races was effectively undone, and Pirelli said over and over again that the 2017 compounds were too safe for their liking, and that they had softer grades available when the FIA wanted to use them. Things should be better in 2018, but instead we get 2 extra compounds, which I think just makes the compound "steps" just too close. Need to go back to less is more, and / or skip a tyre grade (HS / SS / M for instance). Ricciardo also said he'd like Pirelli to bring the Hyper Softs to every event, that would certainly work. Probably too bold for both Pirelli and the FIA though (Pirelli because they are against making their tyres appear too useless, and the FIA because they are seemingly against F1 showcasing racing).

 

[mustafur]

Why are we limited to only one stop now?
But, the tyre you start on, when to manage the tyres, when to stop, if you can under of over-cut the driver(s) in front.


Again, this isn't true. In the last 7 years we have seen many races with many different strategies

- Because 1 stop is the most Common Strategy these days.
- In return we can have midfield cars sticking it on the front row with low fuel strategies.
- You see passing in the pits isn't only limited to Refuelling, the undercut was actually hard to implement in the refuelling era the overcut was generally the way to go as your generally faster at the end of the stint not at the start, but with the way tyres are now it could easily go either way.
-Most of which are predictable, most times a car comes to pit if your following the race closely you know which tyre they are going to be on and that's the strategy if they can go to the end there is nothing else.

Again to be fair to Pirelli, they had to overcome a major change to the tyre regulations in 2017. All the work beforehand to give us those better tyre startegy races was effectively undone, and Pirelli said over and over again that the 2017 compounds were too safe for their liking, and that they had softer grades available when the FIA wanted to use them. Things should be better in 2018, but instead we get 2 extra compounds, which I think just makes the compound "steps" just too close. Need to go back to less is more, and / or skip a tyre grade (HS / SS / M for instance). Ricciardo also said he'd like Pirelli to bring the Hyper Softs to every event, that would certainly work. Probably too bold for both Pirelli and the FIA though (Pirelli because they are against making their tyres appear too useless, and the FIA because they are seemingly against F1 showcasing racing).

To be fair to Pirelli if they leave there will be no options to have these tyre regs, what F1 has asked them to do is pretty ridiculous for a Company that wants to sell tyres, making them do anything apart from make a good tyre you can see how this isn't going to be a sustainable plan going into the future.

 

[baldgye]

- Because 1 stop is the most Common Strategy these days.
- In return we can have midfield cars sticking it on the front row with low fuel strategies.
- You see passing in the pits isn't only limited to Refuelling, the undercut was actually hard to implement in the refuelling era the overcut was generally the way to go as your generally faster at the end of the stint not at the start, but with the way tyres are now it could easily go either way.
-Most of which are predictable, most times a car comes to pit if your following the race closely you know which tyre they are going to be on and that's the strategy if they can go to the end there is nothing else.

-this season
-only to drop back to where they would normally be by the end of the race
-refuelling meant on track passes cost more time than in the pits, which is why on track passing was so much rarer with refuelling
-yes, you can predict what tyre they are going to put on in the stops when you know what tyres are available and when they stop


Monaco was a perfect example of you being wrong. Bottas was on a totally different strategy to the guys in front, and he was faster.

 

[mustafur]

-this season
-only to drop back to where they would normally be by the end of the race
-refuelling meant on track passes cost more time than in the pits, which is why on track passing was so much rarer with refuelling
-yes, you can predict what tyre they are going to put on in the stops when you know what tyres are available and when they stop


Monaco was a perfect example of you being wrong. Bottas was on a totally different strategy to the guys in front, and he was faster.

-Not at all, different cars behave different to differing fuel loads, in 2009 when they where showing fuel loads after qualifying the Brawn would be slower with lower fuel loads in qualifying only to be faster in the race when they put more fuel on their stop.
-Cost more time yes, but passing wasn't happening in 2010 with the same tyres and full fuel so how can you compare to now, it's apples and oranges.

Bottas wasn't faster, he was faster for a few laps then his pace died.

and Monaco isn't getting fixed no matter what happens, the track needs to change.

 

[baldgye]

-Not at all, different cars behave different to differing fuel loads, in 2009 when they where showing fuel loads after qualifying the Brawn would be slower with lower fuel loads in qualifying only to be faster in the race when they put more fuel on their stop.

What? So what does this have to do with the two/three stop strategies we've seen in the previous seasons?

-Cost more time yes, but passing wasn't happening in 2010 with the same tyres and full fuel so how can you compare to now, it's apples and oranges.

I can't compare, but you can?

Bottas wasn't faster, he was faster for a few laps then his pace died.

He was stuck behind Kimi...

and Monaco isn't getting fixed no matter what happens, the track needs to change.

I didn't say there was a problem with Monaco, I used it as an example of you being wrong about one stops having no strategy...

 

[mustafur]

What? So what does this have to do with the two/three stop strategies we've seen in the previous seasons?



I can't compare, but you can?



He was stuck behind Kimi...


I didn't say there was a problem with Monaco, I used it as an example of you being wrong about one stops having no strategy...

The strategy is what I'm talking about, there is more options and there always will when you have the tyre strategy that will exist with or without it, combined with fuel.
I never said I can compare because it hasn't been put into this era and that's the point, your comparing a time when the Tyres where vastly different and there was no DRS to help passing.

Monaco was a unique example in that Ricciardo had bunched the pack and it was making their tyres grain then they where stuck in a loop of saving tyres and coasting we didn't get a real reflection of the pace difference of tyres.

We are going in circles here, you might like this limited ability of strategic options but I would like to see how it goes with refuelling that's all, there is enough reasons as to why it will not be the same as before and I've highlighted it multiple times.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I love how we've had the same dry Monaco GP we've had since time immemorial, yet this is the impetus for people complaining about overtaking? Melbourne and Spain sucked for overtaking this season, as they always have. Nothing has changed, and when we've had circuit you can overtake at, the racing has been some of the best we've seen for a long time (Bahrain, China, Baku).

I can guarantee we'll have this same discussion after: Austria, Hungary, Monza, Singapore, Sochi, Suzuka, Mexico, Brazil and Abu Dhabi (Unless any of them are wet), other circuits where passing has historically been tough.

Contrary to popular belief, DRS is a good thing for F1. It's visible and well defined, unlike other things like Push to Pass and Fanboost, as everyone can see when it's used without the need for other graphics. We see cars sat using DRS behind another car a lot without them being able to pass, so it's obviously not too powerful. Yes, like Formula E's car swaps, the organisers are trying to remove a necessary evil, but see that word - necessary. It'll go away when it's not required, but at the moment it allows us to have the fastest cars ever while still allowing them to race and pass when they're quicker. No, DRS isn't the problem, it's the endless engine modes, but I can't be bothered to go through why right now.

Montreal and Paul Ricard are next. We should see some good racing at both, so hold off the complaining. Remember that this is one of the closest seasons we've seen in ages. 6 races in and 3 drivers from 3 teams have won 2 races each, and the midfield is a lottery each race to who will have pace. This is a vintage season already, and to have great races, you need dire races to compare them to.

 

[baldgye]

I love how we've had the same dry Monaco GP we've had since time immemorial, yet this is the impetus for people complaining about overtaking? Melbourne and Spain sucked for overtaking this season, as they always have. Nothing has changed, and when we've had circuit you can overtake at, the racing has been some of the best we've seen for a long time (Bahrain, China, Baku).
View attachment 739893
I can guarantee we'll have this same discussion after: Austria, Hungary, Monza, Singapore, Sochi, Suzuka, Mexico, Brazil and Abu Dhabi (Unless any of them are wet), other circuits where passing has historically been tough.

Contrary to popular belief, DRS is a good thing for F1. It's visible and well defined, unlike other things like Push to Pass and Fanboost, as everyone can see when it's used without the need for other graphics. We see cars sat using DRS behind another car a lot without them being able to pass, so it's obviously not too powerful. Yes, like Formula E's car swaps, the organisers are trying to remove a necessary evil, but see that word - necessary. It'll go away when it's not required, but at the moment it allows us to have the fastest cars ever while still allowing them to race and pass when they're quicker. No, DRS isn't the problem, it's the endless engine modes, but I can't be bothered to go through why right now.

Montreal and Paul Ricard are next. We should see some good racing at both, so hold off the complaining. Remember that this is one of the closest seasons we've seen in ages. 6 races in and 3 drivers from 3 teams have won 2 races each, and the midfield is a lottery each race to who will have pace. This is a vintage season already, and to have great races, you need dire races to compare them to.

I'm not sure about Paul Ricard giving us good racing to be honest