That is something to take into consideration, but it's more of a long term concern than a short term one. Third parties aren't beyond corruption themselves and its easy to imagine a situation where it would be advisable to avoid voting for the third party to send them a message. That's not the situation we're in now obviously, but supporting third parties doesn't mean you have to exclusively vote for them.
I still think we are in a situation now where we need to send a message. Obviously, people shouldn't vote for third parties just because, but they should vote for them if they correspond to their ideologies. But the candidates over the past three elections have seemingly gotten worse. People should be looking for other options.
That's OK. The goal in defeating Trump is to keep things from changing so that in 2028 we could go back to promoting good changes.
Except this is what I was told in 2016, 2020, and now 2024. I suspect it'll be the same in 2028 too.
I'm not so sure. Punishments were handed out for Jan 6th. Now those involved or in support know there is some risk involved. Will they be as willing to try as last time given that?
I think that you're right in expecting some people to react poorly to a Trump loss, but I just don't see how it could be worse than the case where Trump wins. They won't have an ally/provocateur in power. They might lash out either way, but if they do it's better that the government isn't taking their side.
The punishments were pretty weak all things considered. I still say as soon as the people breached the doors of the Capitol chanting hang Mike Pence, they should've been open-fired on. They were trying to kill members of Congress, and only one insurrectionist was killed. As far as coup attempts go, that was pretty mild. The jail time people received was pretty minimal too considering the gravity of their crime. People with a few ounces of weed have gotten longer prison terms.
Then let me ask, is anything except that which pushes us in the desired worthless? By that I mean, is defending what good things we have left not valuable? Biden won't address a lot of problems that both of us have with the US but at the same time I don't see him willingly trying to twist the US political system into something horrible.
Defending the good is valuable, but I don't think what we have is good. I think the entire system is broken and needs to be changed. I feel like a lot of people always say the same thing and then go right back to the status quo because they're told they have to XYZ, or else it's all doom and gloom.
This is the hangup I was talking about before at the end of my last post. We don't want to settle into a cycle of perpetuating terrible candidates, so I really do get the appeal of voting for third parties in this election. At the same time, both of the major party candidates we have now don't have a lot of time left. You wouldn't be betraying third parties even if you didn't vote for them in this election or even this and the next election.
And this is why I feel I need to do something. If I dislike the way things have been, why should I continue to contribute to the cycle? That seems dishonest on my part and, as I've said, there will likely be another excuse not to vote third-party in 2028. I really do feel a message needs to be sent to Democrats and Republicans to quit nominating terrible candidates by rejecting those candidates completely.
If Trump is as terrible as he's made himself out to be, then keeping him from office should be a very high priority for third party voters. He may try to make it impossible to have a meaningful vote in the future. Biden won't. Or do you disagree?
I don't know and it's a question I continue to think about. While I think Trump is bad, I'm not convinced it's the end of democracy in the US if he wins, at least not yet. It's something I will continue to think about thought and research as the election nears, but I don't have an honest answer yet.
People say things. That people said that then has no bearing on whether it is true now. That someone said "this is the end for roe v. wade" back then didn't make it true then. But it doesn't mean that every time someone says it it is wrong.
The US stood up to a big test... barely... in the last Trump term. It came as close as the mob came, and it required a lot of people to sacrifice their careers and even risk their lives, including in the pentagon. We've been able to do essentially nothing (due to a lack of a functioning court and congress) to stop it the next time.
Which is why I'm still undecided on whether it really does spell the end of democracy. People do say things all the time, but it's unknown how it'll play out. I remember having conversations back during the Bush era where people were convinced Bush was going to make himself a king and I recall more than one person referring to him as "King George".
This kind of a equivocation I do not think is warranted or justified. Yes there will be angry people who do stupid things if Trump loses. No I do not think that's on par.
I disagree; I think the amount of unrest will be substantial and cause all sorts of problems. You're going to have a large percentage of Trump voters convinced the election was stolen again and that they can't sit idly by. You're going to see states with large Republican bases further restrict voting rights and continue to elect more and more extreme candidates that push the narrative that elections aren't free.
Without the promise of a pardon I don't think they will.
These people were willing to die for their misguided causes and got comparatively light prison terms. I don't see why they wouldn't try it again, especially if they feel like they can walk right into the Capitol building like they did. They needed to have been met with deadly force as soon as they breached the Capitol. They were going to kill members of Congress, hand the means to do it, and were effectively slapped on the wrist.
No. If Trump wins it's on the shoulders the people who helped him. Don't blame the victim.
I disagree, Biden is unlikable and has done a poor job winning over the average American. There's not a small number of people who's life today is remarkably worse than it was four years ago. The average voter doesn't understand that the president doesn't control the price of gas, causes inflation, or makes housing unaffordable, but they do blame the president for that. I assume the Democrats understand this and have chose to ignore it. People didn't care for Biden when they voted for him four years ago and all they've seen is their life get worse over those four years.
If Trump wins, I will blame the Democrats for not at least trying to get a candidate that is more likable, relatable, and popular.
Is that better or worse than installing a dictator with free rein over all three branches of government and losing the ability to vote in future elections? If better, do that.
I'm not sure. I would say the inaction is almost worse for the country as a whole. We have mounting problems that aren't being addressed that will be horrific in the near future. Climate change is chief among them because once the climate is beyond repair and areas become uninhabitable or disasters occur that bankrupt insurance agencies, we're all in for a bad time.
The Supreme Court being corrupt is probably the worst out of the three, though, at least for me, since they have the ability to change how the Constitution is interpreted almost at will. No matter who we elect, the Supreme Court is broken for the foreseeable future.
Is holding your nose and voting to keep out the dictator better or worse than voting for a third party and allowing the dictator in? If better, do that.
But I don't think holding my nose is going to contribute to fixing the problem. It's only going to add to the problem. That's my point. I believe the only way we can fix this mess is to get rid of Democrats and Republicans.
Is the status quo better or worse than accepting that, by taking potential votes away from the person who is the only option at keeping the rapist, noncing, Constitution-trampling lunatic who doesn't even believe your vote means anything at all away from the ability to pick up right where he left off in staging an actual, literal insurrection, there's a higher chance of putting the ignorant, zero-wit, racist-enabling, actual nappy-wearing, treasonous foreign asset back in power? If better, do that.
I disagree it's taking potential votes away. I was never going to vote for either Biden or Trump, so it's not taking a potential vote away because if I can't find a candidate I agree with a majority of their platform on, I just don't vote. So as it stands right now, it's either a third-party candidate or apathy, neither of which net any votes for or against Biden or Trump.
This isn't your choice. Your choice is to keep your country together so you can change it later or give back it to the person who has outrighted stated his intent to tear it up. This is not a normal election; you've seen what 45 can and will do, even with an opposing or immobilised legislature. You can't wave that away and accept what he will do with full control.
Honestly, what's happened in the past 70 years of voting for third parties? Your best chance at dismantling the two-party system is to go all-in on one to ensure the other is so shredded as to never be electable in its current form - which is the vassal of a deranged fascist - and has to reform itself. Then the other party can be so sure of power that its overconfidence is exploitable for election reform for 2028 or 2032.
There is no better opportunity than now.
And this is what pushes me towards apathy. If you take away the choice, then my vote truly doesn't matter; therefore, why bother?
Also, this is part of the self-fulfilling prophecy thing of people not voting for third parties. I've been told over and over again that voting third-party is meaningless because they don't have a chance. But if no one votes for third-parties then ya, they're never going to have a chance. Also, as I pointed out above, I was told in 2016, 2020, and now 2024 that I had to vote Democrat to save the nation. What's to say that it won't be that way for the next 3 election cycles or beyond? I'm getting tired of simply voting against someone and want to vote for someone.
That's what they said in the run up to 2016. Everyone was sure safe-bet senator Clinton would stroll to it over the ridiculous, bloated, gaffe-prone reality TV host. But she was lightly poisoned by rumours and conjecture - about her health, about her mental state, and about being connected to a corrupt individual (her husband); sounds familiar - and enough people couldn't put a peg on it and X her.
It was the biggest third-party vote since Perot (twice) and had the largest number of faithless EC votes in a century, and Trump won by almost 80 EC votes. With a minority popular vote.
What did it get third-party voters - and what did it get the USA?
Clinton was a horrible choice for a multitude of reasons. The general voting population was tired of having another family in the White House (like the Bushes), and she just was not likable by many people. Some people also hated her because she was a woman and I'm sure that played a huge part in it too. But really, Clinton should've tried to appeal to more people and not rested on the idea that she was going to coast to a presidency.
